2009.03.27 07:00 - Three Kinds of Divine Love

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    Pema took the chat log for this session, standing in for Quen.

    Pema Pera: Hi Storm!
    Pema Pera: Good afternoon!
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Pema!
    Storm Nordwind: Good afternoon
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Pema Pera: Morning here still :)
    Pema Pera: I'm sorry I gave you the wrong information about Pila's plot -- it was not square but rectangular, it turned out
    Storm Nordwind: Yes. Even though your update said it was not rectangular, I guess what you meant!
    Storm Nordwind: I've just been measuring things here in Bieup
    Pema Pera: hahaha, yes
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    Pema Pera: Come join us!
    Storm Nordwind: There are several ways to align a 112x184 plot
    sophia Placebo: hi storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi sophia!
    Storm Nordwind notices the "Shabby Chic" tag sophia is wearing and thinks her outfit is far from Shabby :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    sophia Placebo: thank you
    Pema Pera: Good to see you here again, Sophia -- you were here a week ago, do I remember that correctly?
    sophia Placebo: true i visit this place at the time of a meeting , luckey me :)
    sophia Placebo: i visted this place last night too
    Pema Pera: the one where I talked with Geo about karma and sin?
    Pema Pera: Hi Korii!
    sophia Placebo: yes
    sophia Placebo: hi korii
    Pema Pera: Storm and I were just talking about making a kind of mock-up nearby in this sim
    Pema Pera: of a place in Hawaii
    Storm Nordwind: We need quite a large plot: 112x184m
    Storm Nordwind rounds to multiples of 4
    Pema Pera: Pila has bought some land there, and has built his own house on part of it, has sold part of it, and still has a plot that he is willing to sell, in principle.
    sophia Placebo: i see
    Pema Pera: So we have done some brainstorming to see how we, perhaps some day, might possibly want to use that as a PaB retreat center in RL
    Pema Pera: and a good way to make the plans more concrete is to build it here on 1;1 scale in SL
    Pema Pera: we could even start with a SL retreat here, before starting to bulid anything in RL
    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello everyone :)
    Storm Nordwind waves
    sophia Placebo: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema, Korii, Storm, Sophia (Nice to meet you) :)
    Korii Tiger: hi eliza
    sophia Placebo: nice to meet you too eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Korii, your tag...hahh :) Don't let me interrupt though
    Korii Tiger: >.<
    Korii Tiger: its a land group >.<
    Storm Nordwind: So I have been measuring out what it looks like, and it seems we can fit it in this sim
    Pema Pera: great, and we can walk over to it from our pavilion
    Storm Nordwind: Even without disturbing anything we have, except for the temporary science exhibits
    Storm Nordwind: The walkway to the Library can remain intact too
    Pema Pera: even better!
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that
    Storm Nordwind: Basically, it can run east west (112x184) from just behind the info point to the north of here right he way to he east edge of the sim
    Storm Nordwind: And it can run to the south end of the stagrgate that we don't own
    Storm Nordwind: The laser ball and the runway can disappear
    Storm Nordwind: There will be some "spare" land north and south of this strip.
    Pema Pera: glad to hear all that, Storm!
    Storm Nordwind: Piet, we will need to play with land ownership because it's a mix in this sim
    Pema Pera: yes
    Storm Nordwind: Anyway, I've just marked the corner points with 10m white poles for now
    Pema Pera: it's the border between Kira and PaB
    Storm Nordwind: That all seems appropriate
    Pema Pera: I see, the first white pole is quite close
    Pema Pera: but not crowdingly close to us, perfect!
    Pema Pera: just to the North of us
    Storm Nordwind: I think so too. That will be the SW corner of the plot
    Pema Pera: I suggest we create a new group for the land ownership
    Storm Nordwind: Very good yess
    Pema Pera: so that any experimentation will not disturb the rest
    Storm Nordwind: Yes good
    Pema Pera: how about "pabrl" for PaB RL ?
    Pema Pera: or pab-rl
    Pema Pera: slightly easier to understand
    Storm Nordwind: How about something more memorable!?
    Pema Pera: even more?
    Storm Nordwind grins
    Pema Pera: pab-rl-as-opposed-to-sl ?
    Storm Nordwind: hehe
    Pema Pera: pab-not-sl ?
    Pema Pera: playasbeingthere !
    Storm Nordwind: haha!
    Pema Pera: (the current place is playasbeinghere)
    Pema Pera: or for now at least: "neither-here-nor-there"
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: or actually "both-here-and-there"
    Pema Pera trying to remember his tetralemmas
    Storm Nordwind: "A Place of Being"
    Pema Pera: ah, nice!
    Storm Nordwind: PoB
    Pema Pera: playing-as-a-place-of-being
    Pema Pera: for now at least
    Storm Nordwind pieces together his exploding head
    Storm Nordwind thinks you can get therapy nowadays for tetralemmas
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Pema Pera: hehehe, Storm
    Pema Pera: especially in the area where you're going to live soon!
    Storm Nordwind: Nine seconds of PaB - always good
    Pema Pera: indeed!
    Pema Pera: I had my sound off :(
    Pema Pera: sometimes I see a "ding" appearing here, that is not associated with the bell here?
    Pema Pera: I didn't see it right now
    Storm Nordwind: NO - this one is textually silent
    Pema Pera: ah, it may be good to have one here permanently which is more talkative
    Storm Nordwind: I believe Adelene has one that talks
    Pema Pera: I can ask her
    Storm Nordwind: I can easily add a 15 minute ding if you wish
    Pema Pera: oh, that would be nice
    Pema Pera: you know what?
    Pema Pera: here is an idea
    Storm Nordwind listens
    Pema Pera: would it be too talkative to add the following message, every fifteen minutes, something like:
    Pema Pera: Ding . . . .
    Storm Nordwind: 4 extra dots? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: this is the PaB clock that rings every fifteen minutes
    Pema Pera: for 9 sec
    Pema Pera: according to the Play as Being exploration guidelines on http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Pema Pera: (and it could even have one extra line mentioning that conversations are recorded)
    Pema Pera: that would effectively free guardians from introducing PaB
    Pema Pera: one more thing automatized
    Storm Nordwind: Hmmm... what do the rest of you think?
    Storm Nordwind watches the tumbleweed drift across the pavilion...
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure... maybe somehow shorter...
    Eliza Madrigal: Might read a little chunky on the logs, but I do like the idea
    Storm Nordwind: If I make it a separate object, it could have "PaB 15 minute clock" in its name, and that would be visible in the message
    Storm Nordwind: But the autorecording will not capture the text. Only your own chatlog will save it
    Pema Pera: that seems fine
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that would be great.
    Pema Pera: less distracting
    Storm Nordwind: The autologger only knows about avatars
    sophia Placebo: as long as it satays short
    Storm Nordwind thinks... mmmmmm... satay :)
    Eliza Madrigal: For the sake of the TOS, does it have to show in the logs, that you did notify about the recording?
    sophia Placebo: lol hmm , forget the correct spelling
    Pema Pera: I don't think so, as long as we have personal records
    Eliza Madrigal: satay sounds like a dance move :)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay. Then great. :))
    Pema Pera: if anyone ever gets angry about that (hasn't happened yet in our first year!) we can show them a copy of our IMs
    Pema Pera: but it's a good question, Eliza
    Pema Pera things satay sounds like Indonesian food . . . .
    Pema Pera: *thinks
    Eliza Madrigal: dinner and a show
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: Sophia, do you have any comment, suggestion, or question about my conversation with Geo last week, by any chance?
    sophia Placebo: i did had
    sophia Placebo: but im not sure exactly what now
    sophia Placebo: i do remmber the love point , that what i capture and keep
    sophia Placebo: captured
    Pema Pera: yes, me too, that was moving -- and unusual
    sophia Placebo: cuz i made a notcard about it , i think i should make a notcards in every discussion i be in in the future
    Eliza Madrigal: Does anyone remember, off hand, the log title?
    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...-Sin_and_Karma
    Pema Pera: "Sin and Karma"
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you
    Storm Nordwind: Before I forget, would the following bell message be OK? ...
    Storm Nordwind: Play as Being 15 minute bell: Conversations here are recorded when ON AIR. Please see http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Pema Pera: wonderful, succinct and clear, and also correct for non-pab times, very nice!
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: Quite
    Pema Pera: thank you, Storm!
    sophia Placebo: short and nice
    Storm Nordwind: Expect to see it at the next session :)
    Pema Pera: That's why I need so many friends, to shorten my talkativeness . . . .
    Storm Nordwind laughs
    Eliza Madrigal: No, do not want to do that to you Pema ! :)
    Pema Pera: Cal does the best job
    Pema Pera: I can write one page, and she responds with one appropriate one-liner . . . .
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, even shorter than my replies
    Eliza Madrigal: a talent
    Pema Pera: *much* shorter
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: coming back to the Geo conversation, here is how it kicked of, and what Sophia refered to:
    Pema Pera: Geo Netizen: My discussion will flow from the Franciscan school. Geo Netizen: Fundamental to all Franciscan theology is the idea that the core nature of the divine is love and perfection; God is perfect love. Geo Netizen: All other attributes of the divine are root in, colored by and flow from this core nature. Geo Netizen: And all love which we experience, including eros, philia and agape, has its origin and source in the divine. Geo Netizen: With that background: Geo Netizen: Sin is a free act by an individual away from this love. Geo Netizen: I use the word act in a broad sense here which would include thoughts, words and deeds. Geo Netizen: We are called to act in ways that move us to embrace this love.
    Storm Nordwind: It's an entirely understandable and self-consistent view, it would seem to me
    Storm Nordwind: It's not my own model of the universe but it is one I respect others for having
    sophia Placebo: it looked like sufi teachings
    Eliza Madrigal: At the love level, all teachings should really be the same.
    sophia Placebo: they introduce a whole new gener to the poetry as Divine love poems
    Eliza Madrigal: Or maybe should isn't the right word...but I'm thinking of all dissolving
    Eliza Madrigal: St. John of the Cross, sophia?
    Pema Pera: yes, I love sufi poetry, Rumi for example
    Pema Pera: or Mawlana
    Storm Nordwind agrees
    Pema Pera: (different names for different cultures)
    sophia Placebo: st john?
    Eliza Madrigal: Not familiar with Mawlana....
    Pema Pera: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi
    Pema Pera: He is known as Rumi in the West
    Pema Pera: but not in the middle east
    Eliza Madrigal: OH!
    Storm Nordwind: Jalaladin Rumi (sp?)
    Pema Pera: (and yes, Eliza, love is one of the main roads into seeing)
    sophia Placebo: jalao-eddin rumi
    Eliza Madrigal: St. John of the Cross wrote ecstactic Christian poetry..along the lines os Song of Solomon
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm somewhat familiar with Rumi
    Pema Pera: Hafez is another one
    Storm Nordwind: Mystical poet writings can be inspiring from many sources... Sikh, Gnostic, Hindu... all delight in that love
    Pema Pera: one of my very favorite Rumi poems is http://www.gratefulness.org/poetry/guest_house.htm
    Storm Nordwind: And that poem accords with Buddhist teachings at a deep level too
    Pema Pera: very much so
    Pema Pera: perfect interpolation between Franciscan and Buddhist views
    Pema Pera: Hi Quen!
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Quen
    sophia Placebo: the other thing that come to my mind about sin and love is a known arabic saying ,maybe it come from sufi poems that says (the lover to whome he love is obediant)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Quen :)
    Pema Pera: no summer time yet in Holland, I take it :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: It can be astounding how much people can add-on to make love an exclusive idea...
    sophia Placebo: hi quen
    quen Oh: hi all!
    quen Oh: how are you?
    Storm Nordwind: Next week is summer time for Europe Pema
    Pema Pera: ah, yes, devotion, you mean, Sophia?
    Pema Pera: oh, we all make typose, Eliza, some of them quite funny
    sophia Placebo: obediance is the word used
    Pema Pera: yes, but Quen probably thought it is 7 am right now, SLT :-)
    quen Oh: they changed time here?
    quen Oh: gosh!
    quen Oh: was not knowing that, indeed
    Pema Pera: I took your chatlog last week and this week
    Pema Pera: but if you like you can claim this one
    Storm Nordwind: This is the supposed end of a PaB session rather than the start!
    Pema Pera: or I can put it up
    quen Oh: yes that would be perfect if you could Pema!
    Pema Pera: next week Europe and US are synchronized again
    Pema Pera: okay, will do
    Pema Pera: I already claimed it
    quen Oh: very sorry, was totally distracted and had no idea about the time changes
    Eliza Madrigal: obedience....maybe on the order of humility, Sophia? How do you hear the word?
    Pema Pera: np, Quen
    Pema Pera: or devotion?
    quen Oh: must make some schedule and put it in my agenda, perhaps the Succes agenda company should put it into their system these changes
    Pema Pera: :-)
    sophia Placebo: no obediance out of love
    quen Oh: you seem to have an interesting conversation, let me not disturb :-)
    Storm Nordwind: (quen, see: http://www.timetemperature.com/tzus/...ing_time.shtml )
    quen Oh: (thanks Storm!)
    sophia Placebo: devotion i think is a higher level of love
    Pema Pera: obedience between human lovers, or between a practitioner and the divine, or both, Sophia?
    Pema Pera: (just curious)
    sophia Placebo: we use it here for both
    quen Oh: doesn't devotion make you more dependent of someone else?
    Pema Pera: yes, that is what is so nice about Sufi poetry, that both are blended
    Pema Pera: no boundaries
    Pema Pera: may I ask where you live, Sophia (you don't have to tell us, of course!)
    Pema Pera: not necessarily, Quen
    Eliza Madrigal: Obedience is a word that can have baggage for some (me) ... so I'm trying to wrap my brain around the picture with other words :)
    Pema Pera: total devotion can set one free -- but it can easily backfire, like everything
    Pema Pera: not blind devotion
    Pema Pera: I could say that I am totally devoted to "play as Being"
    sophia Placebo: you disobey god and you show his love and this is a stange act , if your love was sencier ,you would obey him for the lover to whome he love is obediant
    sophia Placebo: this is the full paragraph
    Eliza Madrigal: Submitting to one another...clothing one another...these ideas I can easily embrace...even on a Divine level
    quen Oh: devotion to art or some project I can recognise, to a person seems different though
    Pema Pera: yes, Sophia, I know
    Pema Pera: it is very hard to understand that within our Western culture :-)
    Pema Pera: we have been talking about going beyond concepts
    sophia Placebo: oh im in saudi arabia perma
    Pema Pera: fully devotional love can do that
    Pema Pera: glad to have you here, Sophia, I'm delighted to have a Sufi voice in our group!
    quen Oh: nice sophia!
    Pema Pera: but in our culture we are suspicious of fully devotional love
    Pema Pera: and we tend to only see the pitfalls (which there are)
    sophia Placebo: ty but im not sufi myself ,but i read their poetry ,some of it at least
    Pema Pera: and not the royal road to seeing through love
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Yes, absolutely (glad to haveyou here Sophia)
    Eliza Madrigal: AH...think I'm seeing something closer...that whether the love (devotion) is returned or not...it remains the same...which might be closer to obedience.
    Pema Pera: it's nice to have the connection, Sophia -- like in my case, I am not Christian, but through my upbringing in Holland I do appreciate some aspects of Christianity (and not others)
    Pema Pera: yes, Eliza
    Pema Pera: non-conditional love
    Pema Pera: very odd in our culture, almost non-existent
    Pema Pera: but no conditions can lead to going beyond concepts
    Pema Pera: Saint Francis loved God unconditionally
    quen Oh: perhaps the concept of devotion and obedience has lot to do with the expectations you have with it?
    Pema Pera: and Geo is following him
    sophia Placebo: i think it is cuz obediance in our culture has no negative impact eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh..... :) Now I'm smiling
    Pema Pera: ah, that's a central point, Sophia!
    Eliza Madrigal: Was crinkling my eyebrows. hahah
    Eliza Madrigal: Like meditation/sitting practice...whether there is a *reward* or not...just do it :)
    Pema Pera: exactly!
    Pema Pera: without expectations
    Eliza Madrigal: So, in that way, one can see themselves as obedient, and it is freeing rather than burdensome
    quen Oh: that makes a big difference indeed
    quen Oh: responsibility of ones actions and decisions is important here perhaps?
    Pema Pera: "love and do what you want" said Augustine . . .
    Pema Pera: if you *really* love
    Eliza Madrigal: : )
    Eliza Madrigal: Do no harm...can be difficult to measure that
    Storm Nordwind nods
    sophia Placebo: well not really , there are 3 kinds of divine love : 1- love out of fear of punshment that is the love of slaves ,2- love out of greed in heavens and that is merchants love 3- love god cuz he deserve it and that is the freemen love
    Pema Pera: thank you, Sophia, very nice summary!
    Eliza Madrigal: merchants love. Hmmm...great way of putting that
    Pema Pera: hell, heaven, earth
    Pema Pera: I'll have to move on now, thanks everybody for a wonderful conversation!
    Pema Pera: see you all soon again
    quen Oh: bye Pema, nice to have seen you
    Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Pema, and for the links/poetry also...timely.
    sophia Placebo: bye perma
    Pema Pera: :)
    Storm Nordwind will no create the textual bell as discussed earlier
    Storm Nordwind: *now
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Storm. :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to sit a moment and write the lines Adams asked for...about what PaB means to me...
    Eliza Madrigal: This seems like the setting to do it in :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice conversation this morning guys, thank you.
    quen Oh: well nice to meet you Eliza
    sophia Placebo: i g2g too , nice to meet you all
    quen Oh: and you too Sophia!
    Storm Nordwind: Bye sophia :)
    quen Oh: bye sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: You too, Sophia!
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to meet you also quen!
    quen Oh: wish you a good time reading then here :-)
    quen Oh: will go and see if my pavillion is still here in SL after over a week of absence
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Look forward to seeing you again. Hope so
    Storm Nordwind: OK quen, bye for now
    quen Oh: likewise Eliza! bye Storm!
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay. :) Bye Storm.
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