2009.03.27 19:00 - Free will and squidgy carbon water things

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. Adelene was the guardian.

  

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Dakini

Dakini Rhode: hi Threedee

Adelene Dawner: 'lo Dakini ^.^

Dakini Rhode: hi adelene

Threedee Shepherd: thats interesting I said HI and Ade said LO and we meant the same thing related to neither word

Dakini Rhode: :) high and low?

Threedee Shepherd: Actually, there was once a cowboy bar in Boulder named the Hi-Lo

Threedee Shepherd: actually this might be a good avatar to explore the possible multiplicity of BEING

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Bert, steve

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Three,

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila

Bertrum Quan: Hi 3-D Steve.

Pila Mulligan: greetings everyone

Bertrum Quan: Hi Pila, Dakini,

stevenaia Michinaga: Dakini, so nice to see you again

Dakini Rhode: nice to see you all too :)

Dakini Rhode: i just took a snap of threedee - not everyday i talk to a 3 headed dragon

Pila Mulligan: hi Peer

Peer Infinity: hi everyone :)

Threedee Shepherd: Well, earlier this evening someone noted I wasn't really THREEdee, so I had to oblige

Pila Mulligan: looks like a Hindu liion god

Threedee Shepherd: hmmmm

stevenaia Michinaga: nice color pallet, Ade, where are the tools?

Pila Mulligan: hi Pema

Pema Pera: HI everybody!

Pema Pera: HI DAKINI ! ! ! !

Dakini Rhode: hey! happy almost anniversary

Threedee Shepherd: hi Pema

Bertrum Quan: hi Pema

Pema Pera thought that Dakini had become a legend . . . didn't expect to meet her anymore :-)

Pema Pera: yes, happy almost first birthday of PaB !

Dakini Rhode: haha my RL has nearly taken over but not quite :)

Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Dakini

stevenaia Michinaga: now she should be interviewed by Adams :)

Pema Pera: Hi Peer!

Pema Pera: I don't think we've met before

Neela Blaisdale: hello everyone

Threedee Shepherd: hi

Pema Pera: Hi Neela!

Pila Mulligan: hi Neela

Pila Mulligan: hi Ade

Pema Pera: and hi Bertrum, Pila, Steve, Threedee, Adelene!

Threedee Shepherd: quite a lovely crowd

Bertrum Quan: hi Ade, Nella

Adelene Dawner: All right, I think I got 'em all. heh. I should have left more time for setting up!

Adelene Dawner: Hi, all. ^.^

Neela Blaisdale: wb Bert

Pema Pera: you're setting us up, Adelene?

Dakini Rhode: hi everyone :)

Adelene Dawner: *giggles*

Pema Pera: I guess everybody here has met the legendary Dakini, right?

Adelene Dawner: Well, the free draw friday last week went well enough I thought we might want to do it again...

Pema Pera: who told me a year ago that I could use a little tea house she had built, to get together for the first few PaB sessions . . . .

stevenaia Michinaga: nice color pallet under developement Ade

Dakini Rhode: :)

Pema Pera: we typically had two or three or four people then for a session . . . .

Pema Pera: I think there were six cushions in total

Adelene Dawner: ^.^ (Under development? It's done. It handles 4,500+ colors)

stevenaia Michinaga: saw the pallet, not the tools

Pila Mulligan: and now it has become a year older

Pema Pera: yes, and already we are thinking about RL events . . . .

Pema Pera: . . . our retreat in August

Pema Pera: and perhaps even a permanent retreat center in Hawaii !

Pila Mulligan: or somewhere ... :)

Pema Pera: wherever we can find an inspiring vulcano . . . .

Pema Pera: . . . just to make Moon happy

Pema Pera: he likes fireworks

Pila Mulligan: it's making lots of steam this afternoon - all going more or less up -- quite beautiful

Pema Pera: hopefully not down?

Pema Pera: or?

Pila Mulligan: nice wind today

Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!

Pema Pera: Hi Amira!

Pema Pera: Come join us if you like!

Eliza Madrigal: Hello everyone! Big group!

Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza and Amira

Neela Blaisdale: Hello Eliza

Pema Pera: Eliza, meet Dakini

Dakini Rhode: :)

Pema Pera: our patron saint

Eliza Madrigal: We've met. :) Hi Dakini :))

Dakini Rhode: Eliza is one of our zen retreat timekeepers :)

Neela Blaisdale: Hello Amira, nice to meet you

Pema Pera: ah!

Pema Pera: small world

Amira Mirajkar: hello nice to meet you atll

Eliza Madrigal: Amira, Hello :)

stevenaia Michinaga: timekeepers? wears a watch?

Eliza Madrigal: Just holding time/space for meditation once a week, Steven :)

Eliza Madrigal: (sounds very large when phrased that way....holding time/space-hah)

Pema Pera: Amira, have you been here before?

Amira Mirajkar: no i havent

Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?

Amira Mirajkar: I dont mind at all

Pema Pera: well, Eliza you must be an astronomer -- that's our job, originally, time keeping!

Pema Pera: thanks Amira!

Eliza Madrigal: : )

Adelene Dawner: Hello again, Oni

Pema Pera: Hi Oni!

Threedee Shepherd: so, now that Ade has "drawn" so many folks here, anyone have a topic?

Pila Mulligan: what is the essential nature of happiness?

Pema Pera: a warm gun?

Pila Mulligan: he's died :)

stevenaia Michinaga: bang bang

Threedee Shepherd: ahh, that reminds me, Pema, that when I see my almostg 6-year-old granddaughter tomorrow, I will ask HER why fun is fun, and some things are not fun

Pila Mulligan: she will know

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Pema Pera: :)

Pema Pera waiting with baited breath for the answer!

Threedee Shepherd: me too, actually

Pila Mulligan: oh, it was a topic -- I do not know the answer :)

Pema Pera: (Like a lizard on a window pane)

Pila Mulligan: Pema channeling Charlton Heston

stevenaia Michinaga: happyness, like Being is more not letting things get in the way, of laughter, for instance

Pema Pera: actually the Beatles

Pema Pera: Happiness Is A Warm Gun

Pila Mulligan: oh, sorry -- much better choice

Dakini Rhode: um i think i'm channeling the lizard

Dakini Rhode: sleepy "_

Pema Pera: sleep well, Dakini!

Pila Mulligan: bye Dakini

Eliza Madrigal: Night, Dakini :)

Adelene Dawner: 'night Dakini :)

Neela Blaisdale: Night D, have a good day tomorrow

Adelene Dawner: Peer! ^.^

Dakini Rhode: so nice to see everyone - night"_

Pila Mulligan: welcome back Peer

Peer Infinity: internet connection troubles...

Bertrum Quan: 'night, Dakini

Pema Pera: Threedee, I can think of another topic, besides happiness; how about serenity?

Threedee Shepherd: Happiness: The absence of sadness ?

Peer Infinity: hi L :D

Pila Mulligan: serenity, the absence of turbulence?

ladyart Lefevre: Hi!

Neela Blaisdale: Serenity: not measuring happiness and sadness

Pema Pera: Hi Ladyart

stevenaia Michinaga: not sure there's a sliding scale between happy and sad

Threedee Shepherd: happiness and serenity seem like subsets of each other ^.^

Pila Mulligan: hi ladyart

Adelene Dawner: oo, like that Nee. :)

Pema Pera: yes, Neela, I like that one!

ladyart Lefevre: It's been a while

Peer Infinity: yeah

ladyart Lefevre: missed my bunnny hugs

Pema Pera remembers having been happy in very un-serene ways :-)

Peer Infinity: welcome to Play as Being :)

Peer Infinity: the people here are awesome :D

Threedee Shepherd: have you even been serene in unhappy ways

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

ladyart Lefevre: i hope i am not too over dressed

Pema Pera: no, beyond happy and unhappy, a la Neela

Pema Pera: hehe, Ladyart, anything goes here

Threedee Shepherd: actually Pema, we could also say everything stops here

Eliza Madrigal: Restfullness...a still lake

Eliza Madrigal: Three :)

stevenaia Michinaga: does this help lady?

Adelene Dawner: We do record our sessions, though, and post them online on our wiki - do you mind being recorded, Ladyart?

Threedee Shepherd: Yes?

Eliza Madrigal: Wow Steven, I've never seen you with a shirt on ::blush:::

ladyart Lefevre: no i have no problem w that at all

Adelene Dawner: thanks ^.^

stevenaia Michinaga: can't let new folk feel uncomforatble, I was jsut lacking a bunny suit for when I met Peer

Eliza Madrigal: (haha...sillyness born of a lot of time online today)

Peer Infinity giggles :)

Pema Pera: yes, Threedee, everything stops here . . .

Pema Pera: Amira and Ladyart, we get together here every six hours . . . and sometimes we are more serious, sometimes more playful, sometimes, well, whatever :-)

Pema Pera: we've been meeting for a year almost

ladyart Lefevre: Ok

Pema Pera: four times a day

Amira Mirajkar: :)

ladyart Lefevre: Peer invited me, we are close friends

Pema Pera: ah, so you heard a bit about our explorations?

Pema Pera: stopping, dropping, seeing, for a few seconds, a few times an hour?

Pema Pera: playfully so?

ladyart Lefevre: not really but would love to learn

Pema Pera: the idea is to do minimeditations, only 9 seconds at a time

Pema Pera: many times a day

Pema Pera: only taking a few minutes of your day in total

Pema Pera: but getting under your skin when you do it every day

Pema Pera: if that makes some sense

Pema Pera: :-)

Pema Pera: and we sometimes talk here about what we find

Pema Pera: Peer, have you tried it?

Threedee Shepherd: Pema, and for me about what we lose, such as stress, expectation and illusion

Pema Pera: yes, that's more important, indeed!

Pema Pera: and much easier to put into words

Peer Infinity: sorry, distracted by IMs...

Pema Pera: np :)

Peer Infinity: no, I haven't tried actual meditation yet, but I already have found answers to the three main questions that you seem to meditate about around here...

Amira Mirajkar: when you asked the original question, it made me go back to thinking about "what is happiness?"

Amira Mirajkar: happiness is different to everyone perhaps

Peer Infinity: and these answers are "modal realism", "Utilitarianism", and "there is no 'me'" :)

Amira Mirajkar: it's created by the mind

Amira Mirajkar: maybe its an illusion

Threedee Shepherd: Peer, you must not leave me hanging with a "come-on" like that ^.^

Peer Infinity waits to see if you can guess the questions :)

Amira Mirajkar: thank you for your time, i have to move along back to my work :) nice meeting you all

Pema Pera: yes, happiness is different for everyone, and also different for the same person, I think, at different times

Pema Pera: buy Amira!

Threedee Shepherd: What is the relationship between utilitarianism and pragmatism, by youyr definitions?

Neela Blaisdale: Night Amira

Pila Mulligan: bye Amira

Threedee Shepherd: nite

Peer Infinity: let me know if you're done guessing, and want me to just tell you the questions

Pila Mulligan: yes, please

Threedee Shepherd: what is all that stuff that appears to be not me --> model realism.

Threedee Shepherd: What is morality--effective doing--utilitarianism/pragmatism

Peer Infinity: the questions were: "What is reality?", "What is the meaning of life?", and "Who am I?"

Threedee Shepherd: what is this apparent corpus --> not me

Peer Infinity: or, alternatively "what is morality?"

Threedee Shepherd: I was close and agree fully with you.

Bertrum Quan: `Night everyone.

Adelene Dawner: 'night Bert

Pila Mulligan: bye Bert

Eliza Madrigal: Night, Bertrum

Neela Blaisdale: Night Bert

Pema Pera: goodnight, Bert!

Pila Mulligan: how about free will Peer?

Peer Infinity: free will is an illusion :)

Threedee Shepherd: Only if you can find a lawyer who will draw it up for you for nothing

Adelene Dawner: *snickers and nudges Three*

Threedee Shepherd: Peer, if free will is an illusion, why is it such a common and powerful one?

Peer Infinity: oops, there I go answering a question before all the terms are defined properly...

Neela Blaisdale: Goodnight eevryone

Neela Blaisdale: Be well

Threedee Shepherd: byr

Pila Mulligan: bye Neela

Pema Pera: bye Neela!

Peer Infinity: what did you mean by "free will"?

Adelene Dawner: Because the squidgy carbon water things that use that construct reproduce better than the squidgy carbon water things that don't

Pila Mulligan: yes, exactly the question Peer

Threedee Shepherd: Peer, if we wait for agreement on the terms we will never get anywhere ^.^

Peer Infinity: I agree with Ade's explanation, by the way :)

Threedee Shepherd: agreed Ade, so what MIGHT the selective advantage of that illusion be?

Pila Mulligan: how about the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives

Adelene Dawner: No free will required for that - I could with some work program a computer to do it. :)

Pema Pera quietly taking leave -- goodnight everybody

Adelene Dawner: 'night Pem :)

Eliza Madrigal: Night, Pema

Threedee Shepherd: oh, Pema, you get us started and then leave ^.^

Pema Pera: you got us started, 3D

Pila Mulligan: bye Pema

Pema Pera: with your question :)

Threedee Shepherd: night

Pema Pera: and it's 11 pm here

Pema Pera: next time

Pema Pera: in one of our possible worlds :-)

Pema Pera: modally or not

Pema Pera: see you all soon again!

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Pema Pera wondering whether he will ever find himself in an impossible world . . . .

Pema Pera: . . . perhaps in a dream tonite

Threedee Shepherd: Seriously, whether Free Will exists or is an illusion--what might be its selective value--especially if it IS an illusion.

Pila Mulligan: selective as ni Darwin 3d?

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

Peer Infinity: maybe it just simplifies decisions?

Threedee Shepherd: that was Ade's darwinian suggestion

Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking building complexity ..filtering and sorting choices

Peer Infinity: that way people act as if they are making free choices, rather than just carrying out the programming of their brain...

Peer Infinity: I'm just guessing randomly here

Threedee Shepherd: OK, let me focus, how could a mass-illusion (delusion) be of long-term value?

Pila Mulligan: well, it owrked for Bush for 8 years

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Threedee Shepherd: It did not wrk, according to my retirement account that I am now living on !!

Peer Infinity: well, in the case of religion, the delusion makes it clear that you're a member of a specific group...

Eliza Madrigal: If we didn't create certain dillusions...might feel unsafe, not progress...

Pila Mulligan: it worked for him 3d, not for anyone else

Threedee Shepherd: in which case it was not a MASS-delusion

Eliza Madrigal: I think it must be about growth...stepping stones...growing out of one delusion and into another...winding up

Pila Mulligan: the illusion of independent choice, if it is an illusion, has the value of encouraging creativity

Adelene Dawner: Corvi! ^.^

Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Corvi

Threedee Shepherd: However, if it is an illusion, creativity would occur anyway--as it does.

Pila Mulligan: :) what a paradox

Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, Preen on Me!

Peer Infinity: hi Corvi :D

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Peer, Steve, Ladyart, Pila, Eliza

Eliza Madrigal: :)

ladyart Lefevre: hi!

Peer Infinity: "fatalism can be fatal"...

Threedee Shepherd: The leading cause of death is life

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Corvi

Peer Infinity: yeah

stevenaia Michinaga: suprised you recognized me

Corvuscorva Nightfire: me too..you have a shirt on!

Threedee Shepherd: I suspect that the need to believe in free will is that one could not maintain sanity in the face of the chaos that is living, otherwise

Pila Mulligan: Peer, were you refering to modal realism, as in the view of David Lewis?

Adelene Dawner: It may be that if you don't think 'I can do something about this'... you can't... even if the thought itself is inaccurate in some way...?

Peer Infinity: actually, I was referring to modal realism, as in the view of Threedee Shepherd :P

Pila Mulligan: ok

Pila Mulligan: Corvi, fyi, Peer posed several questions, the first was "What is reality?"

Pila Mulligan: Pila added free will to the questionof reality

Corvuscorva Nightfire listens.

Pila Mulligan: so to believe in free will is to compensate for chaos then

Threedee Shepherd: Actually another answer to "What is Reality?" Is the statement "What isn't."

Peer Infinity: I like that answer :)

Threedee Shepherd: Yes Pila, in the sence that we need to "believe" we have control

Eliza Madrigal: Or maybe not even control, but influence :)

Pila Mulligan: well, that;s as good an answer as I've ever heard

Peer Infinity: wait, no, that answer confuses "some possible reality" with "the reality we're in now"

Threedee Shepherd: The second question was "What is the meaning of life?" Again, I suggest a simple answer, "Life."

Pila Mulligan: but if it were possible to peer into the deepest disclousre of reality, would free will be as real as say watermelon?

Threedee Shepherd: Eliza, I see influence as a coy way of denying I am really a control freak!

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: Well perhaps :)

Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think waht we have is the opportunity to stick our oar into the river.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: somehow

stevenaia Michinaga: that is the "Play"

Threedee Shepherd: Oar--which part of my body is that, he asked provacatively?

Peer Infinity desperately hopes that we're not going to get into the whole confusion about quantum computation in the brain, and the role of the observer in collapsing the wave function...

Peer Infinity: (which would imply that free will is, in fact, real...)

Pila Mulligan: why not?

Adelene Dawner giggles "Shoulda known better, Peer." ^.^

Threedee Shepherd: No Peer, I do not think that will be necessary, and anyway the quantum mechanic is off for the weekend.

Peer Infinity: hehe, ok :)

Pila Mulligan: Peer, how do you arrive at the third answer, there is no me?

Peer Infinity: ah, answering that requires an essay: http://cosmeng.org/publicwiki/index....rmutation_City

Peer Infinity: basically, my personality is infinitely flexible

Peer Infinity: the only invariant being my dedication to utilitarianism

Pila Mulligan: so oyu are kind of like Data on Star Trek?

Peer Infinity: strange, I never thought of Data's personality as "infinitely flexible"...

Peer Infinity: but now that you mention it, he does have the ability to reprogram himself at will...

Pila Mulligan: he was a vertiable melting iceberg of accomodation

Peer Infinity: ok, yes, I am kinda like Data :)

Peer Infinity: though currently I'm limited by this meatbrain of mine...

Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..he was...in many ways the one that brought people into community.

Threedee Shepherd: Well there is no "me" there is only what *I* (a convenient shorthand) am doing

Eliza Madrigal: :) Am off for now. Thank you everyone. Nice to meet you Peer and ladyart!

Peer Infinity: nice to meet you too :)

Pila Mulligan: why do you feel utilitarianism is necesary?

Adelene Dawner: cya, Eliza :)

ladyart Lefevre: nice to meet u too

Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza

Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye

Threedee Shepherd: Please hint at a definition of utilitarianism

Pila Mulligan: wiki: the moral worth of an action is determined solely by its contribution to overall utility: that is, its contribution to happiness or pleasure as summed among all persons

Peer Infinity: yes, Pila

stevenaia Michinaga: I should be heading out too

Pila Mulligan: bye Steve

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Steve.

Threedee Shepherd: bye steve

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Nice shirt

ladyart Lefevre: I think I must go as well

Pila Mulligan: bye ladyart

Peer Infinity: I've spent a few years thinking about this stuff, and utilitarianism is the only detail about my personality that I can't imagine a situation where I would change it

ladyart Lefevre: Long work day

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Ladyart

Threedee Shepherd: come again, please

ladyart Lefevre: I wil I promise

Pila Mulligan: have you an opinion as to why it is vauable?

Pila Mulligan: Peer

Threedee Shepherd: Peer, as you may notice from my return to it, I suspect I see *pragmatism" are similar to utilitarianism

Peer Infinity: utilitarianism IS my definition of value. therefore, by definition, it is valuable :)

Peer Infinity: or something like that...

Pila Mulligan: ahh, I see :)

Threedee Shepherd: I suspect all utilitarians are pragmatic, though perhaps it may not hold the other wasy around, but I am not sure without more pondering

Peer Infinity: good question three :)

Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah...new notice!

Pila Mulligan: Threedee, would you like to define pragmatism?

Threedee Shepherd: A start: A thing means what a thing does.

Pila Mulligan: wiki: Pragmatism is the philosophy of considering practical consequences or real effects to be vital components of meaning and truth.

Threedee Shepherd: yup that's what I just said

Pila Mulligan: so something is pragmatic if it has a useful aspect

Threedee Shepherd: useful, practical, having effect--not metaphysical

Pila Mulligan: yes, and the non-metaphusical seems to have had a role in its evolution as a popular idea

Threedee Shepherd: Another way of putting it is that a pragmatist asks, "What do you want an answer to do for you?"

Pila Mulligan: having utility, making a contribution

Pila Mulligan: well, as a metaphysical person .... :)

Peer Infinity likes pragmatism :)

Pila Mulligan: let me defend my faith by saying even odd sounding thoughts may be pragmatic

Threedee Shepherd: agreed, pragmatism is as much a process as anything else, so the process of thinking, leading to doing, fits in

Pila Mulligan: I do not dismiss happiness from the spectrum of enlightened thoughts

Threedee Shepherd: who said you did?

Pila Mulligan: no one

Pila Mulligan: but it is a theory among some that happines as a judgment is not a valid aspect of enlightenment

Pila Mulligan: to me happiness is more than a judgment

Pila Mulligan: and so something that leads to it is pragmatic

Threedee Shepherd: OK, Pila, you give me a chance to state a new "aphorism": "You are already enlightened. Perhaps you did not notice this."

Pila Mulligan: and in some cases, what our thorughly rational world refers to as metaphyiscal may contain a seed of happiness

Pila Mulligan: yesa nd no Threedee :)

Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs at Three.

Threedee Shepherd: well, I think it would be interesting to define happiness in terms of "doing", that is happiness is as happiness does--so what are aspects of its doing?

Pila Mulligan: there may be an unlimited number of answers to the question

Threedee Shepherd: I'm trying to get ahead of myself

Pila Mulligan: sounds like a lawyer :) they do that a lot

Pila Mulligan: Corvia, SL shows you holding two of 3d's heads, from where I am

Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: i am

Corvuscorva Nightfire: cause three is getting ahead of himself.

Pila Mulligan: of course :)