The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.
Pila Mulligan greeted me with Trevor Berensohn rezzing in the distance
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
Pila Mulligan: hi Trevor
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Trevor Berensohn: I'm just waiting on the rezz =)
stevenaia Michinaga: lots of emails
stevenaia Michinaga: today
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Mystic
Trevor Berensohn: Two ppl here? Or will more rezz..
stevenaia Michinaga: Trevoe, rather
stevenaia Michinaga: hi pema
Pila Mulligan: maybe more -- the chat starts at 7 SLT, but not regularly
Pema Pera arrives
Pila Mulligan: hi PemaPila brings up a discussion from last night as a continued discussion for tonight
Trevor Berensohn: Pema! Hello!
Pema Pera: Hi TREVOR ! ! ! !
Pema Pera: How nice to see you again -- been so long ! ! ! !
Trevor Berensohn: If I knew how to animate myself I'd hug ya!
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: well, we'll give a virtual virtual hug :-)
Pema Pera: and hi Pila and Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: already did
Trevor Berensohn: Thank you Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm packing hugs
Trevor Berensohn: Hahah
Pila Mulligan: licensed?
Pema Pera: Would you like to join our guaridan guild again Trevor?
Trevor Berensohn: Probably not at present, as I'm only on sporadically
Pema Pera: okay, as you like, you of course have a standing invitation to return
Pema Pera: Pila, Trevor is one of the very first guardians
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for setting up the Wiki for the new RL retreat info,
Pema Pera: going back almost a year
Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee
Pema Pera: yw, Steve
Pema Pera: hi Threedee!
Trevor Berensohn: Oh thank you Pema. This is a wonderful group of ppl
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Three
Threedee Shepherd: ho folks
Pema Pera: we now have close to sixty guardians, believe it or not
Pila Mulligan: and a lion
Threedee Shepherd: hio
Trevor Berensohn: Wow amazing
Pema Pera: we started with 8 or 9 or so
Pema Pera: yes, we even have lions to extra guard :-)
Threedee Shepherd: ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: and a bunny or two
Pila Mulligan: and a tiger
Pema Pera: and a teddy bear
stevenaia Michinaga: oh my
Pila Mulligan: :)
Trevor Berensohn: Yes there were many creatures when last I visited
Pema Pera: Moon, you know him, Trevor
Pema Pera: a dragon
Trevor Berensohn: whoops I lagged sorry
http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/03/2009.03.28_19%3a00_-_Agreements_in_our_Disagreements
Pila Mulligan: maybe Pema and Threedee would like to continue the disucssion that was mentioned in Pems'a email
Pema Pera: Threedee, I have a question about something you said a day ago:
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: ah, yes, Pila, great minds think alike :)
Pema Pera: Threedee Shepherd: Pema, it would seem that for someone in (1) the leap to (2) would have no disadvantages--at least logically. Yet, there is a clear feeling within me (at least now) that keeps the muscles from jumping. Not a wish, a sensed embodiment.
Pila Mulligan: I wish
Pema Pera: I recognize the feeling you expressed myself
Pema Pera: and I find it odd myself, that kind of all too human reaction
Threedee Shepherd: yes...
Pema Pera: perhaps we can all say something about that, trying to figure it out
Pema Pera: this afternoon I quoted the great American philosopher Frank Zappa:
Pema Pera: "you'll be absolutely free, only if you want to be"
Threedee Shepherd: well, I was thinking about that tonight as I was driving home from dinner out.
Pila Mulligan: I thought Zappa was Dutch :)
Pema Pera: wouldn't we wish!
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Pila Mulligan: what were 1 and 2 again, please?
Pema Pera: just a sec
Pema Pera: Pema Pera: when we feel/sense moments of timelessness, we have a choice of interpretation -- even if there is no "belief" involved Pema Pera: let us say we have a choice of two hypotheses to follow Threedee Shepherd: ok Pema Pera:
1) we exist in the world, and for whatever physiological/ psychological reasons, we have that kind of wonderful sensation
Pema Pera:
2) those are moments that show cracks in the too limited belief in a world that exists in space and time, and something wider shines through "out of Plato's cave" so to speak, totally different Pema Pera: I sense that you follow hypothesis 1) and I follow hypothesis 2)
Mangolope Whalen and Riddle Sideways join us
Pema Pera: and then we talked about that for a few hours :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Trevor Berensohn: Can't we just choose to revisit the moments of timelessness?
Pema Pera: so what is holding us back?
Pila Mulligan: so are we to assume there is a discontinuity between 1 and 2 :)
Pema Pera: yes, we can and we can walk right through that portal, Trevor, but we are afraid it seems
Trevor Berensohn: Hmm yes I can relate to that too
Threedee Shepherd: It seemed to me that the concrete road beneath the wheels of my car, the steering wheel I was grasping, the mountain in the distance, partly snow covered simply WERE, were as in real. Then I said to myself, that works, even with no words. I then wonder what else might BE, in any sense of the word BE.
Pema Pera: Pila, the emphasis was on "exist"
Pila Mulligan: how hih is the mountain, how deep is the snow (Pila sings)
Pema Pera: :)
Threedee Shepherd: I know that naming is categorizing, yet the experienced aspects required no words, only embodiment to interact with them
Pema Pera: ah, but as long as thoughts continue, concepts continue, Three
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm I never find adequate words or concepts for that, um, experience myself
Pila Mulligan: sensing a moment of existence that suggests something wider ...
Pila Mulligan: wider than what seems a fair question
Threedee Shepherd: Well, in my opinion Descartes got the first part right I thinkl (although I would restate that as "thinking is."
Pema Pera: footnote: I was delighted that Three and I could find enough common ground to describe similarities and differences, but in no way would I want to suggest that others share the same definitions of 1) and 2), etc -- we probably need many translations, perhaps even for any pair of participants here.
Threedee Shepherd: very likely true, Pema
Pema Pera: PaB should have no formulas, definitions, other than talk about play and Being, I think
stevenaia Michinaga: very
Pema Pera: but for communication, we can build temporary floating devices :)
Pila Mulligan: I think a distinction can be found simply in the quality of sensing
Pema Pera: rafts
Threedee Shepherd: Ok Pema, what assumptions are already hidden in the word "talk". I think that is important in understanding our varying views
Pila Mulligan: one day the mountain is just the same old mountain
Pila Mulligan: one day it is an epiphany
Pila Mulligan: hi ELiza
Pema Pera: Hi there Eliza!
Threedee Shepherd: hi
Trevor Berensohn: Ha much the same
Trevor Berensohn: Hello Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Pila, Pema, Steven, Three, Trevor :))
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Eliza
Pema Pera: yes, Pila, starting close to such phenomena would lead to a different dialogue than Three and I had yesterday
Pema Pera: equally valid, different starting points
Pila Mulligan: my first question was really how wouold you and two define the distinctions between 1 and 2, since you seem to have identiifed with thems separately for dialoug purposes
Pema Pera: Three, do you want to describe those?
Threedee Shepherd: I'll try
Threedee Shepherd: (1) takes as an axiom--an accepted reality if you will--that there is a physical world of stuff and forces/energies/essences, whether Ihumans exist or not. more...
Threedee Shepherd: Or as PHILIP k. DICK HAS WRITTEN: rEALITY IS THAT WHICH WHEN YOU STOP BELIEVING IN IT, DOESN'T GO AWAY.
Threedee Shepherd: Caps not intended
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: but great effect nonetheless :)
Pila Mulligan: - 30 - ?
Pila Mulligan: typographers reference :)
Pila Mulligan: following more ...
Pila Mulligan: means end?
Threedee Shepherd: (2) subsumes (1) as just one of many possible ways experience is perceived, not as a "tangible" given. As I understand where Pema and I ended up, he suggests that starting with (1) as an axiom, limits my possible thinking of other than (1), because I already assert a standpoint
Pila Mulligan: thnaks
Pema Pera: As for me, I accept Three's definition of 1), and for 2) I could simply say: what the heart sutra says
Pema Pera: since anything more specific than that dresses 2) up in the clothes of 1) and will likely lead to confusion
Pema Pera: No ignorance, no end to ignorance; No old age and death, no cessation of old age and death; No suffering, no cause or end to suffering, no path, No wisdom and no gain.
Pema Pera: and so on
Threedee Shepherd: remind me of the simple heart sutra statement, please
Pema Pera: let me get a URL
Threedee Shepherd: No reality, no happening, I would say
Pema Pera: just a sec
Pila Mulligan: so a world wider than that existing in space and time would be Pema's Place, where Threedee dare not tread?
Threedee Shepherd: no, I would go there FROM here, where HERE is a real instantiation within that wider realm
Trevor Berensohn: Hmm but can the reality of it even be verified?
Eliza Madrigal and aurel Miles arrive...
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Mangalope
Pila Mulligan: hi Mangolope
Mangolope Whalen: Hi :))
stevenaia Michinaga: have a seat
Mangolope Whalen: thank you
Pema Pera: I wouldn't say "wider", Pila
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Mangolope, Riddle
Pema Pera: nor would I say "going from or to"
Riddle Sideways: sorry I so late
Pema Pera: btw, the Heart Sutra is here: http://heartofus.wordpress.com/chants/hannya-shingyo/
Pema Pera: my favorite translation
Pema Pera: (there are many)
Threedee Shepherd: Pila, no it cannot be verified. However, I accept the statement that everything that is verified is true, however, everything that is true cannot necessarily be verified.
Pila Mulligan: hi Riddle
Riddle Sideways: Hi Everybody
Pema Pera: Hi Riddle!
Trevor Berensohn: Hey newcomers =)
Mangolope Whalen grins
Pema Pera: Have you been here before, Mangolope?
Threedee Shepherd: One way to restate the "form of the Heart Sutra seems to me to be: No X, no Non-X.
Mangolope Whalen: Nope
stevenaia Michinaga: I invited her this evening
Pema Pera: ah, welcome
Riddle Sideways: can there be false positives
Mangolope Whalen: thank you
Pema Pera: sukoshi nihongo mo hanashimasu ka?
Threedee Shepherd: however I asert that there is some X that is the universe, even when I stop believing in it.
Mangolope Whalen: nihongo o amari hanashimasen
Pema Pera: and I would say: there is the presence of the appearance of something that we tend to interpret as the universe
Pema Pera: :-)
Threedee Shepherd: There cannot be false positives if the process that is implied by verified is adequately defined (and if there S reality)
Pema Pera: but the whole logic of 2) is totally different from 1) . . . .
Pema Pera: and the Heart Sutra is showing that by cutting through
Threedee Shepherd: Not once, in all my life, has the ground beneath my feet or car wheels suddenly ceased to exist. I count on that (no earthquakes, please, that is shifting only)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: but beneath your airplane it did
Pema Pera: what is more, Three, is never has existed, so it CANNOT cease to exist
Pema Pera: it is always more radical than we *think*
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Aurel :)
Pema Pera: Hi Aurel!
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, Pema. the logic of (2) is stated as "The Way that can be known is not the Way."
Pila Mulligan: hi aurel
aurel Miles: hello
aurel Miles: Hi everyone
Pema Pera: yes, Threedee
aurel Miles: please don't let me interrupt
Trevor Berensohn waves to aurel
aurel Miles waves back
Threedee Shepherd: I find such Koans "mind-expanding" and demanding that I look "sideways" to see MORE, not denials of the reality Philip K. Dick describes
Riddle Sideways: just repeating "the known is not the way" makes the ground shake and go non-existant
Pema Pera: the trick is to drop who seems to be doing the looking . . .
Pema Pera: looking backwards :-)
Trevor Berensohn: Erm how to do that, Pema
Threedee Shepherd: I have dropped the "who , who seems to be doing the looking" I have not dropped "the looking is \"
Riddle Sideways: the most interesting things happen in perphial (sp?) vision
Pema Pera: we cannot do it, Trevor, no way :)
Pema Pera: but we can open up for what already is
Trevor Berensohn: haha well put Pema
Pema Pera: there are so many levels in dropping that kind of self or I, Threedee: each time I think I have done it, a little later I find a more subtle form
Pema Pera: there are many many many layers
Pema Pera: each next one more interesting
Pema Pera: take the "I" who has dropped the "who" for example
Threedee Shepherd: *I* is a shorthand for a useful, real spatio-temporal locus in a potentially multidimensional universe, that is the source of doing
Riddle Sideways: peeling the onion/lotus is sooo much fun
Pema Pera: who/what is that?
Pema Pera: that needs to be dropped, yes, Three.
Trevor Berensohn: lol no such thing
Pema Pera: the firm belief in such a world
Pema Pera: or put on hold at least
Pema Pera: up for grabs
Threedee Shepherd: Pema is there anything?
Riddle Sideways: many like keeping one foot on know soil
Pema Pera: there is the presence of appearance
Riddle Sideways: which inhibits moving on
Pema Pera: and Being IS but Being's IS is very difference from our seeming "is" . .
Threedee Shepherd: how do you know that?
Threedee Shepherd: that there is a presence of appearance?
Trevor Berensohn: Um, the experience of it
Trevor Berensohn: Or wait, is experience & presence.. same thing?
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
Pema Pera: (sorry, I followed the 90 seconds silence)
Threedee Shepherd: what is aware of that presence of experience?
Trevor Berensohn: Whoops
Pema Pera: (while the fountain becomes mysty)
Riddle Sideways: that fountain is amazing
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm the awareness itself?
Pema Pera: a new experiment: 9 sec dropping in RL, 90 sec in SL
Threedee Shepherd: tautology
Pema Pera: I don't know it, as much as that I take it as a hypothesis, Three
Pema Pera: a working hypothesis
Pema Pera: but all that I have intuited and experienced is in agreement
Riddle Sideways: if you don't have the awareness, does it mean the presence is not there?
Pila Mulligan contemplates Plato's Allegory of the Elephant
Pema Pera: and it certainly makes life a lot easier and also more effective
Threedee Shepherd: is in agreement with what?
Pema Pera: in agrement with the working hypothesis that 2) is true
Eliza Madrigal: So Pema, what we call water, you see as an aspect of being that has appeared as "water"...metaphor....though it seems/is tangible (enough to swim in and have our eyes sting from) from this (in-world) view...?
Pema Pera: that would still be too concrete, Eliza; rather
Threedee Shepherd: Nothing i have experienced denies (1) not undermines the possibility of (2) as long as I try to experience and not use words
Pema Pera: each moment, you could say, Being expresses itself through the given-together-ness
Threedee Shepherd: nor undermines
Pema Pera: or all that appears in that moment, and what we interpret then as separate subjects
Pema Pera: and objects and distances and all that
Pema Pera: So, Eliza, the way you asked the question already buys into an acceptance of separation and distances
Pema Pera: that itself has to be dropped
Pema Pera: it is very very radical, and not easy to find at first how to do that
Eliza Madrigal: Wouldn't Being have projected it?
Pema Pera: that is still too much thnking in terms of 1)
Pema Pera: Being IS in every single aspect of every appearance
Threedee Shepherd: yes, Pema, a half-hour bus ride from here to there takes a half-hour. That is simply an experience, needing no concepts
Pema Pera: no projecting, no separation, no distance, no coming, no going
Pema Pera: not so simple, Threedee :)
Pema Pera: lots of concepts in there already
Riddle Sideways: yes, not so simeple
Pema Pera: does that make sense, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: :) It is....
Eliza Madrigal: But as for articulating what I see in a wider view...not so easy
Threedee Shepherd: Ok, I really would appreciate an example, Pema, of howNo projecting/separation/etc. , "certainly makes [Your} life a lot easier and also more effective
Pema Pera: but good to try, Eliza, to find out "what gives way"
Pema Pera: anything is an example, Threedee, any worry, need, problem
Pema explains to clearify....
Pema Pera: Let me try this:Stories are always enlightening...
Pema Pera: we know about two ways to conquer a knot, like a Gordian knot, a knotty problem too
Pema Pera: 1) slowly unravel
Pema Pera: 2) cut through
Threedee Shepherd: Is that because in 2-logic anything is no-thing
Pema Pera: 3) see that the knot never existed in the first place
Trevor Berensohn chuckles again
Pema Pera: got ya!
Pema Pera: hehe
Pema Pera: so I'm talking about 3)
Pema Pera: and that applies to anything
Threedee Shepherd: yes, that is what I just asked.
Pema Pera: a worry about illness
Pema Pera: a worry about a deadline
Pema Pera: a worry about mistakes I'm making
Pema Pera: a remorse or guild
Pema Pera: or feeling of inferiority
Pema Pera: a need I perceive to have
Pema Pera: a willingness to help but seeing my own limitations
Pema Pera: all of those, Three, take on a completely liberated form in 2)
Threedee Shepherd: So, if I stop worrying about, thinking about, believing in Type-II diabetes, I can tell my wife to stop nagging me to go to the gym?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: no, that is the 1) logid
Pema Pera: logic
Pema Pera: okay, a single example:
Pema Pera: in the middle ages in Japan there was a samurai handbook
Pema Pera: telling the samurai: go into battle as if you have died already
Pema Pera: so you don't have to worry about dying
Pema Pera: and you can put all your energy in fighting
Pema Pera: and in fact, surprise, you are more likely to survive
Pema Pera: not wasting energy in worrying and overly protecting yourself
Pema Pera: similarly here:
Trevor Berensohn: O wow
Threedee Shepherd: makes perfect sense, except that IF you had died already you would not be able to bgo into the battle
Pema Pera: you can be nicer to your wife if you don't have to protect your own personal history
Pema Pera: if you accept that that is all an illusion
Pema Pera: that you can really finally completely freely express yourself
Threedee Shepherd: If it is all an illusion, why do?
Pema Pera: ah, that's the rub!
Pema Pera: true love does, not because of rewards
Threedee Shepherd: and express "myself' in what linguistic illusion
Pema Pera: true compassion just is, without needing a belief in "existence" to function
Pema Pera: a movie being an illusion doesn't mean it is not worth watching
Pema Pera: a good movie is worth crying over
Pema Pera: and learning from
Trevor Berensohn: Hmm Three if you're still experiencing, then might as well go with it
Trevor Berensohn: Whether it's real or not
Pila Mulligan: I'd rather be lucky
Threedee Shepherd: Trevor, Ithat is similar to William James talking about consciousness.
Riddle Sideways: totally agree, some movies are worth watching
Riddle Sideways: but know they are still movie life
Threedee Shepherd: movies are not an illusion, they are a story told in words and pictures that represent some aspect of what the teller has perceived
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm guess I'm not familiar with Dick OR James
Pema Pera: they are and they aren't, Three: the existence of a house in a movie is an illusion -- and a good one, in the story
Threedee Shepherd: Dick is a SF writer. James was a late 1800s philosopher who laid foundations for pragmatism, among other things
Trevor Berensohn: Ah
Pema Pera: Three, this is where Pila may want to come in: if you start with appreciation of what is, the question whether it "exists" is not so relevant
Pila Mulligan enters
Pema Pera: and certainly does not act as a backstop or off-stage guarantee of the value of what is
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Threedee Shepherd: Pema, I think that is slipping into making this a semantic agrgument, which we have done well in avoiding for the most part, in our conversation
Pema Pera: no intention whatsoever to make semantic arguments, Three
Trevor Berensohn: Hmm? It sounds more like just describing apprecitation
Pema Pera: I'm just trying to include other angles, like Pila, as well
Pila Mulligan is reminded of Stim's dicussion about View or Approach
Threedee Shepherd: I know, but it sounds like that, to me
Pema Pera: how so?
Pila Mulligan: Pema and Three have finely toned and tuned academic presentations to draw upon in the dialog
Pila Mulligan: if I do ont misunderstand Stim's comments you each have a View or Approach to reality
Pila Mulligan: but what about when it comes down to the moent when luck matters?
Pila Mulligan: luck
Threedee Shepherd: Pema, IF my "instantianted reality" version of (1) happened to be true, I do not see where it destroys your expanded hypothesis that is (2)
Pema Pera: you see, Three, we can't get from 1) to 2) by arguing . . . really, that will never work. The best we can do is trying to sketch how different the hypoheses of 1) and 2) are, each in their own way
Pema Pera: and yes, Pila, I would talk totally different about 2) with a Taoist, for sure!
Pema Pera: we can do that some day, would love to.
Pila Mulligan: but I think Threedee has sais that but for the words he sees 2 also
Pila Mulligan: said*
Pema Pera: yes, but that is not 2, that is the shadow of 2 projected into 1
Threedee Shepherd: In answer to my own question, I might reply that accepting (1) is akin to staying I have to start somewhere, whereas (2) denies the meaning of both "start" and "somewhere" and simply ios appearance of perception with no preconditions,
Pema Pera: in 2 it is not possible for 1 to be true the way Threedee intends it
Pila Mulligan: why not, Pema
Pema Pera: let's now go slow again, Three:
Pema Pera: akin to staying I have to start somewhere
Pema Pera: is what you said, but that already closes the doors of 2
Pema Pera: before you start, you have already started by introducing an "I"
Threedee Shepherd: yes, that was my answer to myself
Pema Pera: so you are already on your way
Pema Pera: within 1
Pema Pera: ah, okay, sorry, now I was too fast :-)
Pema Pera: hehe
Trevor Berensohn: Oh dear, First Life calls.. Will hopefully sit in on this agina soon =)
Pema Pera: so now then the question is what happens when you do not start with an "I"?
Pila Mulligan: bye Trevor
Pema Pera: bye Trevor!
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, see you soon
Pema Pera: bye Steve!
Trevor Berensohn: Pema, you are a gem!
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
Pema Pera: great seeing you again, Trev!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Trevor, Bye Steven
stevenaia Michinaga: bye all, thanks for coming Amngolope, c join us again
Pema Pera: (2) denies the meaning of both "start" and "somewhere" and simply ios appearance of perception with no preconditions,
Threedee Shepherd: Well, lets agree that in this discussion I/you/me is a shorthand not a necessary reality.
Pema Pera: it looses everything, time and space and distance and identities
Pema Pera: but the crux is there, Threedee
Pema Pera: that is not a detail, that's the center
Threedee Shepherd: doing happens
Pema Pera: in 2 nothing happens
Pema Pera: it really really is radical
Threedee Shepherd: therefore nothing is, therefore there is no (2) ^.^
Pema Pera: heart sutra again:
Pema Pera: O Sariputra , all things are expressions of emptiness, Not born, not destroyed, not stained, not pure, Neither waxing nor waning. Thus emptiness is not form; Not sensation nor perception, Reaction nor consciousness;
Pema Pera: nothing exists, and indeed 2) does not exists
Threedee Shepherd: Not born, ...so where did these words come from, an ongoing being that is always everything, out of which they happen to coalesce?
Pema Pera: Three, you can't get there from here -- you can't construct an object from its shadows
Threedee Shepherd: It sounds like (2) has now jumped to (3), and in (3) "WHY?" is not meaningful as an utterance
Pema Pera: indeed, any why requires a framework to ask the question in
Pema Pera: there is no framework independent why
Pema Pera: the Tao is not a framework
Threedee Shepherd: of course.
Pema Pera: nor is Buddhist emptiness
Pema Pera: why questions in 1) don't reach 2)
Threedee Shepherd: I make an assertion: No feral child could grow up to be Buddah.
Pema Pera: there is no Buddha in 2) nor a child, of whatever type
Mangolope Whalen bows in honor
Mangolope Whalen: Thank you so much for being inviting and kind.
Threedee Shepherd: But sometime in the next 24 hours it is likely I will have to find the toilet to take a shit
Pila Mulligan: bye Managlope
Eliza Madrigal: Mangolope, bye for now :)
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Pila Mulligan: a maybe useless idea from Pila: something that bridges the apparent distinction between Approach 1 and Approach 2 is luck
Pema Pera: bye Mangolope!
Mangolope Whalen: baibai :)
Pema Pera: what kind of luck, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: luck luck :)
Threedee Shepherd: if luck=chance
Pila Mulligan: not a joke :|
Pila Mulligan: good luck bad luck
Pila Mulligan: personal luck
Threedee Shepherd: (2-3) The 2-3 that can be know is not the 2-3, in fact nothing can be known because it is already the case that ALL IS
Pema Pera: so how does that bridge 1 and 2, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: well, I think Threedee said he sees 2, but he does not buy the words
Threedee Shepherd: Pema, is a mantra of (2): disbelieve
Pema Pera: and Three, I know it is frustrating, but arguing against it doesn't help seeing it -- opening up and testing the hypothesis that it might be true is more effective to at least sense what the hypothesis is trying to say
Pema Pera: so how does luck come in, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: it defeats the premise that someting is more effective but affirms the premise of 2
Pema Pera: and luck?
Pila Mulligan: luck = it in the previous sentence
Pila Mulligan: it Three is indeed accepting the concept of 2 but nt the words
Pema Pera: you're beyond me, Pila
Threedee Shepherd: No, I think it might better be stated as a varient of Avastu's "Everything arises perfectly" by saying "EVERTHING--now you try to live with it."
Pema Pera: can't follow that so far
Pema Pera: can we start again, in a simple way?
Pila Mulligan: Three, didn'y you sayyou have an inkling of what Pema means by 2, wihtout the words?
Riddle Sideways: Everything is what it is. And the only thing we can change is our attitude towards it
Threedee Shepherd: yes, AND I say that I have already excluded some regions of potential, BEINGNESS space because of perception, imperfect as it is. Or.
Pema Pera: can you try again to explain luck, Pila, I don't get it yet
Threedee Shepherd: to put it another way (2) if (2) shows me that nothing is impossible, all I have is useless chaos because there is no signal and no noise
Riddle Sideways: Good night all
Pema Pera: do you, three?
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Riddle :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Riddle
Pema Pera: nite Riddle?
Pila Mulligan: but you have a sense of the idea of what Pema means in his description of 2?
Threedee Shepherd: it is as if no-thing==every-thing, which does not tell me any-thing
Pila Mulligan: I need to look back at the log, just a sec please
Pila Mulligan: but the next question, Three, have oyu had expereinces of good luck and bad luck?
Pila Mulligan: sorry, I cannot find the part of the log I was looking for
Pila Mulligan: so skip to luck, please
Pila Mulligan: is luck not an expereince in Approach 1?
Threedee Shepherd: perhaps, Pila. I do accept that what I call effect apparently can arise de-novo without cause (or that such things are simply beyond my understanding, even thoug they are my apparent perception)
Pila Mulligan: so we can proceed with luck as a viable idea. Three?
Eliza Madrigal: So interesting, but I need to peel away.... Nite Aurel, Three, Pila, Pema :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Threedee Shepherd: if we mean by luck, randomness
Pila Mulligan: no, personal luck
Pila Mulligan: like Jeez, Sam sure is lucky
Threedee Shepherd: no, I do not accept that kind of luck, if I understand you. there is not a state variable=luck
Pila Mulligan: okay, then I was mistaken, it doe sont work as a bridge :)
Pila Mulligan: pardon the digression please :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: I probably should get some sleep
Threedee Shepherd: no, not a digression, a clarification of a layer not there
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: since I will be up again in four hours, for the next session :)
Pila Mulligan: have a nice rest Pema
Pema Pera: but we can continue, Three, we are just beginning to scratch the surface
Threedee Shepherd: Pema, before you go
Pema Pera: yes?
Threedee Shepherd: From (2) no statement but (2) can be true. thus tautology, it seems
Pema Pera: in 2) the role of statements is different than it is in 1)
Pema Pera: so if you apply the 1) logic to 2), you wan
Pema Pera: won't get anywhere
Threedee Shepherd: OK, in (2) is there ANY meaning to the copmmon word, REALITY
Pema Pera: I'm not trying to be difficult, that is just the nature of 2)
Threedee Shepherd: I know you are not trying to be difficult
Pema Pera: the problem is, once we both have glimpses of 2), we can compare the glimpses and from there on we can try to grope for words
Pema Pera: and luck will help to get glimpses :-)
Threedee Shepherd: hehe
Pema Pera: but we need to start from the experiments to then try to describe whatever theory we would like to argue with
Pema Pera: we can't produce reality by constructing a clever logical argument
Pema Pera: in 1) the experience is everyday experience
Pema Pera: in2) it is something different
Pema Pera: and believe me, I know how frustrating it is
Threedee Shepherd: I would say, every time I think I have had a glimpse that might be of (2) the words I grope for always bring me back to it being just another case of (1)
Pema Pera: I found it frustrating too, and I used to argue just like you are doing now, I know where you are coming from
Pema Pera: yes, words project it down into the shadows . . .
Pema Pera: it's delicate
Pema Pera: at first at least
Threedee Shepherd: OK, in a sense one cannot get from (1) to (2) because they are orthoganol constructions,
Pema Pera: You sked for examples, let me give a concrete example.
Pema Pera: When I was 17, I started to study these things, that was in 1970.
Pema Pera: Then in April 1994, I remember the day, I suddenly realized that I had reached a point in which all books from all religions made sense to me, recognizable sense
Pema Pera: like reading a tourist guide of a place you had already visited
Pema Pera: you might not know every street and building, of course, but you recognize the atmosphere and feel of the place
Threedee Shepherd: ok
Pema Pera: Before that, I had not reached that familiarity or depth of insight, whatever you want to call it
Pema Pera: after that, the journey become so much easier
Pema Pera: and at the same time, I could also say, at that point the journey was just beginning
Pema Pera: until then I had been struggling, as if blind
Pema Pera: I did have my intuitions
Pema Pera: luck :-)
Pema Pera: but after that I could proceed in a much more directly guided way
Threedee Shepherd: the words journey and proceed imply movement
Pema Pera: so end of story: a concrete phenomenological description of how I began to approach 2).
Pema Pera: and yes, you are right, I am projecting the story into 1)
Pema Pera: willingly
Pema Pera: knowingly making errors to make it fit but ready to backtrack where needed
Pema Pera: nothing random there
Threedee Shepherd: ok, an observation, and then I will "let" you go to sleep...
Pema Pera: so this is just to counter the "but then it would all be chaos" objection
Pema Pera: yes?
Threedee Shepherd: I "perceive/feel" at a deep level beyond any words I can use, that our discussion is not about semantics, which thus suggests to me that I must have some "knowing" of 2, or this would seems an empty discussion to me.
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: if you didn't you would have left much earlier :-)
Threedee Shepherd: heheh
Pila Mulligan: that's what I heard you say earlier 3d but could nt find in the log :)
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, but here I have said it in a much more useful way--at least useful to me
Pema Pera: if I may make one last comparison?
Threedee Shepherd: yes
Pema Pera: between math and 2)
Pila Mulligan: but I believe you also saind you were not buying the words Pema was using
Pila Mulligan: excuse me Pema
Threedee Shepherd: words are but a scaffold, in the end
Pema Pera: np, Pila, you can also go first!
Pila Mulligan: that was it :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: Let me tell it as a story
Pema Pera: Here goes
Threedee Shepherd nods
Pema Pera: In 2030 a major crisis happens, and civilization breaks down completely
Pema Pera: for five hundred years the few survivors keep alive as hunters and gatherers
Threedee Shepherd: likely, even, though unfortuante in the short run
Pema Pera: (perhaps fortunate for the planet, could be)
Pema Pera: now in 2530 someone finds a mathematics book
Pema Pera: with strange drawings
Pema Pera: and even stranger sentences
Pema Pera: with words that seem to have no meaning
Pema Pera: and many pages of add arguments
Threedee Shepherd: odd
Pema Pera: and at the end "what was to be proven" a kind of "so there!"
Pila Mulligan: maybe add :)
Pema Pera: Now the kid who finds this book shows it to his friends and elders
Pema Pera: and everyone concludes that it must be sheer nonsense
Pema Pera: one of the reasons that the great complex civilization, only knonw through warped legends, came to a fall
Pema Pera: but somehow the kid has "luck"
Pema Pera: has this strange intuition, belief, hunch, idea
Pema Pera: that, you know, there might actually be something to it
Pema Pera: he has no idea what
Threedee Shepherd: and woe if he finds out?
Pema Pera: if he would have tried to argue what it could be, he could have never argued his way into it from scratch
Pema Pera: instead, he just takes the book
Pema Pera: and reads it every day
Pema Pera: again and again
Pema Pera: and each time it makes just a tiny little bit more sense
Pema Pera: he begins to see patterns
Pema Pera: how the words may correlate with the pictures
Pema Pera: the same kind of sentences keep appearing
Pema Pera: near the same kind of pictures
Pema Pera: and slowly slowly over the years, the fog lifts
Pema Pera: and buy golly. there is sense there
Pema Pera: and by more golly, the sense is so totally different from anything he could have guessed
Pema Pera: in the hunter gathere vocabulary counting was there
Pema Pera: but not algegraic geometry, or topology
Pila Mulligan: b* :)
Pema Pera: well, by early April 1994 I felt like that kid
Pema Pera: in utter amazement, even though I'd be playing with those ideas for 24 years
Pema Pera: and thought I knew quite a bit already by then
Pema Pera: end of tale
Pema Pera: (thanks Pila:)
Threedee Shepherd nods thoughtfully
Pila Mulligan: are you going to the August retreat Threedee?
Threedee Shepherd: I will not keep you from sleep. AND, I want to put on a list that I would like to discuss with you, the word/concept/idea/essence "PATTERNS"
Threedee Shepherd: No, I am not.
Pila Mulligan: thnak you :)
Pema Pera: Ah, let me add one important footnote here
Pema Pera: I do not claim that I have found the truth, by any means
Threedee Shepherd: I know you do not
Pema Pera: but I do claim that what all those books try to say makes internal sense
Pema Pera: there is something there there, of which I have seen enough glimpses that I stopped trying to wonder whether it would be baseless wishful thinking
Pema Pera: so no belief or claim, but insight in the worthiness of the hypothesis of 2, as worth pursuing, but potentially still false
Pema Pera: (complete disclosure :-)
aurel Miles: i have a lot to digest, and slept very little last night so I hope you'll excuse me - i am going to bow out here
Pila Mulligan: bye aurel
aurel Miles: it is always a pleasure
Pema Pera: thanks for sitting through all this, Aurel :-)
aurel Miles: goodnight
Threedee Shepherd: "Suspend both belief and disbelief" and see what happens
Pema Pera: yes
Threedee Shepherd: goodnight
Pema Pera: beyond belief (and disbelief) :-)
Threedee Shepherd: beyond belief and disbelief, thaer is just IS
Threedee Shepherd: or BEING to be Played with
Pema Pera: btw, there is a second milestone for me, which happened eleven years later, in 2005, from which point on luck was no longer necessary to get glimpses of 2 -- that's an altogether different story for another day. From then on I began to find (more and more) ways to open up without waiting for glimpses . . . .
Threedee Shepherd: another story for another time :)
Pema Pera: yes, perhaps in four hours, hehehe
Threedee Shepherd: I will gladly listen
Pila Mulligan: well, I move we adjourn :)
Pema Pera: good time for Hawaii perhaps?
Pema Pera: yes, I second
Pila Mulligan: any nays?
Pema Pera: see you all later
Pema Pera: hehehe
Threedee Shepherd: done, goodnight, Friends
Pema Pera: thank you both!
Pila Mulligan: aloha Pema and Threedee
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