2009.03.30 13:00 - What is existence?

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. Mickorod was the guardian.

    Wol Euler: hello mick

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Wol

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Scath

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol, Mick:)

    Wol Euler: hello scath

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Stim

    Wol Euler: hello stim! how was your retreat?

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim:)

    Stim Morane: hi Mick

    Stim Morane: And Scathach and Wol

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Pema

    Wol Euler: hello pema

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema

    Stim Morane: Pema

    Pema Pera: Hi Wol, Mick, Scathach, and welcome back, Stim!

    Stim Morane: Thanks

    Pema Pera: we look like a panel to interview Stim :)

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Pema Pera: HI Arabella!

    Wol Euler: hello ara

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara

    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone

    Mickorod Renard: ;-)

    Wol Euler: hello fefonz

    Mickorod Renard: hiya Ara and FEF

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz:)

    Pema Pera: Have you seen this latest experiment of ours, Stim?

    Fefonz Quan: Hey Wol, Ara, Mick, Scath, Pema, Stim

    Pema Pera: 90 seconds instead of 9

    arabella Ella: Hiya Fef

    Stim Morane: Hi Corcyrus, Fefonz

    Pema Pera: and during that time, the fountain becomes fuzzy

    Fefonz Quan: (order of appearance, that is)

    Stim Morane: I noticed it just now

    Fefonz Quan: (fsd)

    Pema Pera: (my lines appear out of order)

    Fefonz Quan: (order of appearance, that was)

    Pema Pera: Corcyrus = Arabella :)

    Pema Pera: So we now have, Stim: 9 sec in RL and 90 sec in SL

    Pema Pera: turbo-PaB :)

    arabella Ella: oh must remove tag

    Stim Morane: OK, good

    arabella Ella: thanks for noticing Pema was visiting another sim

    Fefonz Quan: something strange goes on with the lines and rezzing today...

    Pema Pera: Stim noticed :)

    Pema Pera: yes

    arabella Ella: done

    Pema Pera: So today we will continue our theme discussions, with Stim and me as moderators, about appreciation

    Pema Pera: appreciating the presence of appearance

    Pema Pera: (as a presentation by Being)

    Pema Pera: Does anyone have a question, comment, . . . ?

    Mickorod Renard: is that A p a?

    Pema Pera: APAPB for short, if you like :-)

    Mickorod Renard: phew

    Mickorod Renard: hi Qt

    Pema Pera: but you can type longhand if you prefer

    Pema Pera: hi Qt!

    Qt Core: hi all

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello QT

    Wol Euler: buona sera qt

    arabella Ella: quite a brain full ... APAPB

    Fefonz Quan: Hi Qt

    arabella Ella: Hiya Qt

    Stim Morane: Hi Qt

    Pema Pera: Hi Fef!

    Qt Core: buona sera a te Wol ;-)

    Pema Pera: non et sera in Princeton :)

    Fefonz Quan: Que sera sera...

    arabella Ella: buon giorno a voi Pema

    arabella Ella: come stai Qt?

    Pema Pera: muolto grazie

    Mickorod Renard: hi Adamos

    Qt Core: bene, grazie arabella, ottima giornata anche se pesante

    Qt Core: tu ?

    arabella Ella: anche la mia e stanta pesante ... ma ho finito tante cose allora sono piutosta sodisftta

    arabella Ella: sto bene grazie

    arabella Ella: LOL

    Qt Core: ok, stop it it feel soo weird :-)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Mickorod Renard: do you think APAPB is something that is generally open to all,,or just to people with inquisitive minds,,or at least observers?

    arabella Ella: ok ... apologies to the rest

    Pema Pera: well, it is a way to familiarize yourself more with what we are talking about, Play as Being

    Pema Pera: a good way to play as Being

    Pema Pera: no apologies, I love to see the Italian

    Pema Pera: We could start an Italan evening in the Kira Cafe if you both like

    arabella Ella: it is such a beautiful language

    Pema Pera: we have German, Dutch, Japanese so far

    Pema Pera: si, voglio imperare l'Italiano

    Pema Pera: ma non ho del tempo

    arabella Ella: perhaps eventually but for the moment i have a few trips lined up so csnt really commit

    arabella Ella: we could teach you italian here Pema if you wish

    Fefonz Quan finds it hard to understand what we are talking about here even in English ;-)

    arabella Ella smiles

    Pema Pera: so talking about appreciation, Arabella gave a nice example recently

    Pema Pera: about her birds

    Pema Pera: how shall we proceed from here?

    arabella Ella: oh yes remembered it yesterday when i saw a lone sparrow too

    Mickorod Renard: appreciation is a form of gratitude? yes?

    Pema Pera: yes, Arabella?

    arabella Ella: yes a lone sparrow seemingly searching for crumbs

    arabella Ella: same place ... on the rocks by the sea shore

    Pema Pera: we really have to have a PaB retreat there, Arabella :)

    Pema Pera: Mick, sure, there is overlap, but appreciation has many aspects -- the best thing is to just do it

    Qt Core: maybe around a fire on the beach

    arabella Ella: yes i agree 100 percent

    Pema Pera: Did anyone try to work with "appreciating the presence of appearance"? In either RL or SL or both?

    Pema Pera: this last week?

    Mickorod Renard: I would like to think I have done something on appreciation ,,even this morning

    Pema Pera: yes, Mick?

    Mickorod Renard: this was why I asked the question about gratitude

    Mickorod Renard: because

    Mickorod Renard: after a while this morning for example

    Mickorod Renard: I was just commming out of stress mode and realiseing that i was tense

    Mickorod Renard: that I was able to take in my surroundings,,which are lovely

    Mickorod Renard: and I felt the overwhelming joy of it,,and the release of anxieties,,and so forth

    Mickorod Renard: and it made me realise how lucky I am to be able to do it,,and actually want to give thanks for that

    Pema Pera: yes, definitely that is appreciation -- and I'm glad you tell us

    Wol Euler: evening Pila

    Fefonz Quan: Hey Pil

    Pema Pera: hi Pila!

    Stim Morane: Hi Pila

    arabella Ella: hiya Pila

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Pila

    Pila Mulligan: greetings :)

    Pema Pera: when you said\: [13:13] Mickorod Renard: appreciation is a form of gratitude? yes? -- that sounded more like a theoretical statement. Sharing the actual experience makes it real!

    arabella Ella: it certainly does that was very beautiful and touching Mick

    Mickorod Renard: yea,,I also thought of the rest of the world rushing by,,and wondered whether we are a minority

    Qt Core: today, and that is quite strange for me i appreciated the light, sunlight to pe precise, a thing i usually don't like a lot

    Pema Pera: very nice Qt! and yes, I guess you have too much of a good thing in Italy!

    arabella Ella: how lovely

    Mickorod Renard: yes

    Qt Core: i'm in northern italy, near milan, we could beat london at the fog game ;-)

    Pema Pera: !!

    arabella Ella smiles

    Wol Euler grins

    Mickorod Renard: Londons not so bad these days

    Pema Pera: as close to London as to Malta . . . .

    Pema Pera: Hi Scathach!

    Qt Core: but today was quite different as i was closed up in a small classroom teaching something to my colleagues

    Pila Mulligan: hi Scathach

    Wol Euler: wb scath

    Qt Core: and i went there in the morning with a cloudy sky

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila

    arabella Ella: hiya Scah

    Qt Core: then when i got out several hours later it was mostly sunny

    Scathach Rhiadra: sorry, crashed

    arabella Ella: fantastic Qt

    Mickorod Renard: I remember when I would walk to school regular in the fog,,with a scarf over mouth,,later that day it would be black where I was breathing in

    arabella Ella: oww

    Qt Core: and then while driving home (listening some ogan music) the sun was mostly appreciated

    Mickorod Renard: steam trains and stuff

    Qt Core: organ

    Mickorod Renard: lovely

    Pema Pera: thank you, Qt!

    arabella Ella: yes it sounds so lovely

    Pema Pera: it's wonderful to gather all these appreciation reports, which we can all resonate with so well

    Pema Pera: over the last few weeks

    Mickorod Renard: I also had another today

    Qt Core: there were also many cloud to see, nicely illuminated

    Mickorod Renard: yeaa,,love clouds

    arabella Ella: mmmm ... clouds with silver linings

    Pema Pera thinking about clouds in his native Holland . . . .

    Mickorod Renard: I saw some beauties yesterday

    Pema Pera wondering which beauties . . . .

    Fefonz Quan also enjoyed the sunny skies with some clouds today

    Mickorod Renard: clouds,,mmm ;-)

    Pema Pera: ah!

    Pema Pera: Let me propose a new step

    Pema Pera: And I hope Stim can comment on that too

    Stim Morane: ?

    Pema Pera: So far, we have spent a few weeks gathering testimonies of appreciations

    Pema Pera: real, practical, felt, direct appreciation in our lives

    Pema Pera: How about spending the next few weeks to go a step further

    Mickorod Renard: yes please

    Pema Pera: to "appreciating appearance"?

    Pema Pera: we can later worry about presence and Being and all that

    Pema Pera: ah, bell coming up . . . . .

    Pema Pera: yw :)

    Pema Pera: Let me phrase it my way, then let's see how Stim would say it

    Pema Pera: When we see a cloud, or a bird, and appreciate it, there are at least three aspects:

    Pema Pera: we see a bird, we take it to really exist there in front of us, in the world, in space and time, and we feel deep appreciation.

    Pema Pera: now of those three things: perceiving, infering existence, appreciation

    Pema Pera: we can question the value and importance of each of the three

    Pema Pera: without perceiving it would be hard to appreciate

    Pema Pera: but how important is the belief in "existence" of the material substrate and by extension of the "existence" of a whole world in space and time?

    Pema Pera: In other words, we can try to see whether we can make do with only the two elements of perception and appreciation, while leaving the question of existence or not completely open, neither affirming nor denying, just setting that aside. I would be really curious if we all were to try that, this week, and report about that next week.

    Pema Pera: Well, Stim, what do you think about such an exploration?

    Stim Morane: :)

    Qt Core: mmm, without the "uniqueness" of the things i'm observing/appreciating i will appreciate it less

    Stim Morane: I'm a bit sleepy today, unfortunately. I'm still on the retreat time from the past week

    Pema Pera: ah, that's different though, Qt

    Qt Core: just thinking about it as only a possibility (or a invention)

    Pema Pera: existence and uniqueness are not the same

    Pila Mulligan: why a question of existence, Pema?

    Qt Core: yes, i feel uniquenes was not the right word so the ""

    Qt Core: maybe "being real" could be better

    Pema Pera: we tend to reify everything, PIla, to give it "thing-like" qualities

    Pema Pera: to make it "exist" which tends to limit appreciation

    Mickorod Renard: I recall doing it once.or twice in the past

    arabella Ella: not sure if i understood you well Pema

    Pila Mulligan: hi buddha

    Mickorod Renard: hi Bud

    arabella Ella: would appreciate if you could just repeat the key point

    Fefonz Quan: hello buddha

    Wol Euler: hello buddha

    buddha Nirvana: Hi pila, mick, everyone:)

    Pema Pera: (will wait for Stim)

    Stim Morane: I would not phrase things in quite the same way as you have, Pema, but can respond simply by saying we don't really go around adding a "belief in existence" to things we encounter

    arabella Ella: do we just appreciate the appearance while disregarding the 'existence' or material substratum as you described it?

    Stim Morane: if belief is an explicit act of the mind, in addition to perception, then I think we should do what you suggest, Pema.

    Stim Morane: But I'm not sure it is.

    Pema Pera: we can learn to perceive in ways that are less entangled with the existence-belief, don't you think, Stim?

    Stim Morane: Yes, I agree.

    Stim Morane: The issue you're raising is somewhat complicated.

    Pema Pera: so let's go very slowly then

    arabella Ella: yes pls

    Stim Morane: It relates to practices that explicitly emphasize a kind of attention to things that withholds any attribution of existence.

    Stim Morane: So I think I understand what you're aiming for here.

    arabella Ella: mmmmmmmmm

    Pema Pera: (like yogacara for example)

    Stim Morane: But this is independent of the notion that people explicitly add a "belief" to their perception.

    Stim Morane: This is complicated and much hangs on what you really mean by "belief"

    Pema Pera: yes, it is all one package deal -- but it can be unraveled

    Pema Pera: that's why we have to go slowly

    Stim Morane: So hopefully we can bypass some of that complexity for our present purposes.

    Pila Mulligan: so prejudice would be a gross example of an attribution of existence?

    Pema Pera: that's a very general statement, Pila

    Pema Pera: I'm not sure where you want to go with that?

    Wol Euler too is struggling to find an example to use as a toehold on the idea.

    Fefonz Quan: i thought we go below belief in a "decartiya' way where we are only know that appearances appear, no more than that

    Pema Pera: shall I give an example?

    Pema Pera: to make it more concrete?

    Wol Euler: please

    Qt Core: yes

    Pema Pera: Same old movie metaphor that I find so useful . . .

    Mickorod Renard: pls

    Pema Pera: if we watch a movie, and someone tells us it is all a play of light, there are no real people there in front of the theater

    Pema Pera: then that does *not* mean that we shrug and leave the room, or that we stop appreciating the story

    Pema Pera: in many ways, we can appreciate the intricasies of all the good and bad that happens more when we are freed from having to worry about what happens to the people in front of it, since it is all a play of light

    Pema Pera: without the imputed "existence" we can focus purely on all the human emotions which are displayed, and in fact we can learn a lot from a good movie

    Pema Pera: And if I can give a quick second example:

    Pema Pera: when we are dreaming and suddenly realize we are dreaming, we call that a "lucid dream"

    Pema Pera: the very word "lucid" indicates that the awareness of the non-existence of what we first thought to be real objects and people gives us a first reaction of lucidity, an enhanced appreciation

    Pema Pera: a more direct form of clarity

    Stim Morane: The analogy only goes so far. In the movie case, we can be passively but intensely immersed in the story, or we can "withhold" or "suspend belief", true. But this does not mean that in the ordinary real-world case we are really going around attributing existence to the things we see -- rather, we are simply relatively unawake to what "existence" really is. And to become more appreciative means not that we withhold such belief, but that we see more -- more of what existence is.

    Pema Pera: but I realize that all these words I am speaking can be understood in so many ways -- I am not trying to diminsh anything in our experience, on the contrary

    Pila Mulligan: does this relate: by withholding our mental presumption as to the attributes of what we perceive, we liberate ourselves from possible misperceptions

    Stim Morane: The same applies to the dream vs lucid dream case you mention. It's not a matter of attributing existence vs withholding it.

    Pema Pera: yes, I think so, Pika

    Pema Pera: Pila

    Pema Pera: and yes, Stim, that is more accurate, I agree

    Fefonz Quan: So stim, if not attributing nor witholding, what do we do with them?

    Stim Morane: to withhold is not to see more. We should try to see more.

    Stim Morane: The exercise of seeing things as mere appearances is a traditional practice, but somewhat misleading

    Stim Morane: It's just an exercise

    arabella Ella: another example i guess would be us as pixels on SL now?

    Stim Morane: The main practice would be to see more of what is actually present

    Wol Euler: but "actually present" not in a way that relates to "existing"? I'm confused still, sorry

    arabella Ella: not just visual i guess but also tactile, etc?

    Pema Pera: all of it, yes

    Fefonz Quan: well sounds like we put upside down all we said about APA

    Stim Morane: ... this is complicated, as I said earlier.

    Stim Morane: :)

    Pema Pera: so we have to go slow

    Wol Euler nods sadly

    Pila Mulligan: wb Scathach

    Pema Pera: which is okay

    Wol Euler: re-wb scath :)

    Pema Pera: there is no rush

    Fefonz Quan: Can you be more clear about the missleading of mere appearances?

    Scathach Rhiadra: ty:)

    Qt Core: i still have the figure of the bird flying in my had and can't imagine what i should see

    Fefonz Quan: for me it sounds like the practice we are doing is misleading

    Mickorod Renard: I suspect what we are talking about is what we miss because we are so engrossed in what we are more concerned about due to conditioned living

    arabella Ella: yes we should try to step outside the conceptual ... the softness and fluffiness of the feathers of the bird for example?

    Pema Pera: Stim, do you want to answer: [13:51] Fefonz Quan: Can you be more clear about the missleading of mere appearances?

    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, have I missed a lot?

    arabella Ella: the feeling of air over the feathers?

    Pema Pera: that was your phrase : mere appearnces

    Pila Mulligan: yes Scath :)

    Stim Morane: if a "belief in existence" of x, y, z etc were part of what is present in each case, then we'd have to see and drop that belief. But it's not exactly what we're doing, so the dropping of it isn’t exactly what a more refined approach would involve.

    Stim Morane: a more refined approach would aspire to see more of what is present, in each case.

    Pila Mulligan: hi Storm

    Pema Pera: and Pila pointed to something similar in : [13:48] Pila Mulligan: does this relate: by withholding our mental presumption as to the attributes of what we perceive, we liberate ourselves from possible misperceptions

    arabella Ella: Hiya Storm

    Stim Morane: This includes features of perception and mind function that are usually hidden, and also the Being-ground of these features

    Wol Euler: hello storm

    Storm Nordwind mumbles apologies for missing so much - Hi!

    Mickorod Renard: maybe a reverse step may ellaborate more?

    Mickorod Renard: hiya storm

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Storm

    Fefonz Quan: how can we observe that Being-ground?

    Pema Pera: (unfortunately I have to go in a few minutes . . . . have a RL meeting at 2 pm sharp)

    Stim Morane: Mick, we could stay with the appreciation of the bird or the light, etc. It's not that these things don't "exist". They do.

    Stim Morane: The issue is: what is existence?

    Stim Morane: So we don't need to drop a belief, we need to see what existence is.

    Qt Core: ohhh, a simple question at last ;-)

    Pila Mulligan: nice Stim

    Mickorod Renard: sounds good to me

    Wol Euler nods thoughtfully

    Stim Morane: This is not easy. But it's relevant to Pema's larger objective.

    Pema Pera: (it depends, obviously, on what we mean with the word "existence" -- we can change what we mean with it, and then there is no reason to drop it, we can keep it in a new form)

    Fefonz Quan: If i saw the bird and mick saw it too, did it existed more' than a single observer?

    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking of circumstances

    Stim Morane: Yes?

    Mickorod Renard: like for example,,u walk into a terible situation,,and u dont see the whole picture because of your shock

    Pema Pera: (Stim, will you answer Fefonz?)

    Stim Morane: Yes it existed

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,then u become used to these terible circums,,and then u are able to see more and function well

    Stim Morane: sure

    Stim Morane: I think we have started something today that will require some followup, just on the explanation side.

    Pema Pera: bfn, sorry, have to scoot!

    Stim Morane: Yes, I do too.

    Mickorod Renard: bye Pema

    Fefonz Quan: by Pema

    arabella Ella: bye Pema

    Wol Euler: bye pema, take care

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema

    arabella Ella: bye Stim

    Fefonz Quan: bye Stim.

    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema and Stim

    Stim Morane: bye, everyone!

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim

    Mickorod Renard: bye stim

    Wol Euler: and bye stim, thankyou

    arabella Ella: thanks!

    Stim Morane: thanks, everyone. We'll try more next time.

    Mickorod Renard: I am really eager to know more,,but I think I have shown how dumb I am

    Wol Euler: no mick, on the contrary; and you are far from alone

    arabella Ella: yes we are all here to learn

    Wol Euler: simple examples are a very good way to approach complicated material

    arabella Ella: if we knew it all ... well ... it would be boring too

    Mickorod Renard: true

    Wol Euler: Let me be dumb too, then. I cannot begin to imagine how this exercise should work, what Pema wants me to do.

    arabella Ella: me neither

    Wol Euler: I was trying on examples in my mind as they spoke, to see if I could find a way in.

    arabella Ella: would be great if someone here could continue the explanation?

    Wol Euler: "There's a vase with roses at the end of my desk. But is there really?"

    Wol Euler: is that it?

    Mickorod Renard: well,,I keep tryin to think of things I have done ,,like tools,,that I can use for this

    Wol Euler: that seems to me far more artificial than just saying "there is a vase wtih roses"

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,true

    Wol Euler: I'm lost ...

    arabella Ella: about your roses Wol, perhaps it is a bit like phenemo ... the smell, the perfection or otherwise of the petals, etc?

    Mickorod Renard: there must be a barrier that we have to cross

    Qt Core: have to go, bye all!Ciao!

    Mickorod Renard: bye Qt

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye QT

    arabella Ella: ciao Qt ... notte!

    Wol Euler: bye qt

    Mickorod Renard: I used to have to go amongst some pretty depraved souls in the past

    Mickorod Renard: at first it was ,,erm,,shocking

    Mickorod Renard: numbing

    Pila Mulligan: to use a metaphor, we can freeze an image we see by thinking about it -- this part of the exercise may be introducing the idea of not limiting the perception

    Mickorod Renard: and I couldnt function well

    arabella Ella: yes

    Wol Euler nods to mick, and listens

    Storm Nordwind is intrigued about the mytserious chat he missed, but guesses he will have to wait for the chatlog to be posted

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: me too!

    arabella Ella: well Storm it was all about appreciating appearance

    arabella Ella: and Pema and Stim described it in rather different ways

    Scathach Rhiadra: I will go before I crash again, namasté

    arabella Ella: bye Scath

    Pila Mulligan: bye Scath

    Storm Nordwind: Namaste

    Wol Euler: bye scath, and bye buddha

    Pila Mulligan: bye buddha

    Mickorod Renard: anyway,,i eventually got beyond the shock,,and was able to sit amongst these folk and talk to them and try and help

    buddha Nirvana: Namaste

    Storm Nordwind: Did the ways conflict?

    Mickorod Renard: bye Scath

    arabella Ella: appreciating appearance while suspending the 'material substratum'

    Pila Mulligan: only in form, Storm :)

    Storm Nordwind: What's a substratum?

    arabella Ella: there was one element where they seemed to disagree but i think it may have been merely use of language

    arabella Ella: substratum - similar to 'substance', that which holds matter together

    Pila Mulligan: [13:55] Stim Morane: Mick, we could stay with the appreciation of the bird or the light, etc. It's not that these things don't "exist". They do. [13:55] Stim Morane: The issue is: what is existence? [13:55] Stim Morane: So we don't need to drop a belief, we need to see what existence is.

    arabella Ella: (a philosophical term following Locke I think)

    Wol Euler: I felt at one point that Stim was suggesting that it was a bit "advanced" for us :)

    arabella Ella: (Locke and primary and secondary qualities)

    Pila Mulligan: [13:56] Pema Pera: (it depends, obviously, on what we mean with the word "existence" -- we can change what we mean with it, and then there is no reason to drop it, we can keep it in a new form)

    Mickorod Renard: anyway,,what I was tryin to say is that if we drop our defences or judgements,,there is another existance,,or reality out there

    Storm Nordwind: hmmm...

    arabella Ella: yes Mick ... like when there are occasions when we may be 'scared' to appear relaxed

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,war zone stuff is the same

    arabella Ella: so Storm ... could you help and attempt to enlighten us pls?

    Storm Nordwind: Haha!

    Storm Nordwind: I have to try and understand the context :)

    arabella Ella: we are so striving to understand ... and it hurts not to

    Mickorod Renard: yea,,we need private lessons

    arabella Ella smiles

    Storm Nordwind: So ... what is the practical point of this? (I have to ask.)

    arabella Ella: ok eg appreciating the appearance of a bird in flight while suspending any thought about its actual material presence or 'being'

    Storm Nordwind: Does it bring a view that can't be got in another way?

    Wol Euler: [13:32] Pema Pera: When we see a cloud, or a bird, and appreciate it, there are at least three aspects: [13:32] Pema Pera: we see a bird, we take it to really exist there in front of us, in the world, in space and time, and we feel deep appreciation. [13:32] Pema Pera: now of those three things: perceiving, infering existence, appreciation [13:33] Pema Pera: we can question the value and importance of each of the three [13:33] Pema Pera: without perceiving it would be hard to appreciate

    arabella Ella: Stim said it will get us to appreciate existence and being more

    Storm Nordwind: But his last point "What is existence" is the crucial one i think

    Wol Euler: [13:33] Pema Pera: but how important is the belief in "existence" of the material substrate and by extension of the "existence" of a whole world in space and time? [13:34] Pema Pera: In other words, we can try to see whether we can make do with only the two elements of perception and appreciation, while leaving the question of existence or not completely open, neither affirming nor denying, just setting that aside. I would be really curious if we all were to try that, this week, and report about that next week.

    arabella Ella: yes

    Mickorod Renard: what is existance?,,only what we see while we are alive?

    Storm Nordwind: From one point of view, that of Being, the concept of existence is meaningless

    Pila Mulligan: what we see while we are alive is perception, in my opinion, and existence exceeds perception

    Storm Nordwind: Not so much that. Existence needs duality

    Mickorod Renard: that would ring true to me too Pila

    arabella Ella: Storm ... existence is meaningless ... would appreciate if you could expand

    Storm Nordwind: If there were nothing but Being, existence is meaningless. There would be no duality. No separation.

    Storm Nordwind: This is the stuff of Heart Sutra. Form is emptiness. Emptiness is Form

    arabella Ella: but isnt Being an ontology in itself ... being exists ...

    Storm Nordwind: It sounds mystical but it can be seen as physics

    Storm Nordwind: To exist is meaningless if that's all there is

    arabella Ella: intruiging

    arabella Ella: thanks for all that Storm

    Storm Nordwind: there is no non-existence nor existence

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,so,,we create our existance by making our own future?

    Storm Nordwind does not know whether that's what Pema and Stim were on about though! :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    arabella Ella: yes i think so

    Storm Nordwind: Hmm... Mick. That sounds like a different question to me. What do you think?

    arabella Ella: Mick ... we cannot create our existence is there is only Being

    arabella Ella: it is meaningless i guess

    Mickorod Renard: well,,if we had no plan for the future we may loose our existance

    Storm Nordwind: If that were so, I would have disappeared a long time ago! perhaps I have!! ;)

    Storm Nordwind and plans often don't go together! :)

    Mickorod Renard: but we have active minds,,and that in itself creates our perception of time which then is linked to our existance

    arabella Ella: but Mick if i get the point ... there are different ... new ... ways of looking at what you just said, not just one single point of view

    Mickorod Renard: well,,i was thinking my statement was just a silly idea

    arabella Ella smiles ... depends which statement you are referring to ... altho i dont think any statements were silly ... but who am i to judge?

    Mickorod Renard: I have so many questions in my head now,,that i am completely confused

    Storm Nordwind: That can be a good point to start from - if you let them all go. Sleep on it perhaps. :)

    Mickorod Renard: I think what i say is tentative probing

    Pila Mulligan: Mick, my sense is that when Buddhists are being smart (and this is said respectfully, because in my opinion no one is smarter) its like Michael Jordan playing basketball, easier to watch than play :)

    Mickorod Renard: rather than an insite

    arabella Ella: i like that storm ... just let all your questions ... go

    Wol Euler laughs.

    Wol Euler: how true.

    Mickorod Renard: nice Pila

    Mickorod Renard: well,,I think that is god advice Storm,,cos i am loosin the plot,,and maybe its time for my subconcious to take over

    Storm Nordwind: For me too. It's 10:30 pm here

    Wol Euler nods and yawns.

    arabella Ella: it is 11.30 pm here

    Mickorod Renard: u still in the uk?

    Storm Nordwind: Me, Sadly yes

    Mickorod Renard: could be worse

    Pila Mulligan: well, a nice rest then to those in the shadow of the earth :)

    Pila Mulligan: from those in mid-day :)

    Wol Euler: is this noon for you, Pila?

    Wol Euler: ah ty

    Pila Mulligan: almost

    Mickorod Renard: ;)

    arabella Ella: thanks Pila ... u still got a day ahead of you ... cool ... i could do with some extra time

    Storm Nordwind waves through the mantle

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Storm Nordwind: Bye for now all

    Mickorod Renard: u goin storm?

    arabella Ella: bye Storm

    Pila Mulligan: bye Storm

    Wol Euler: bye storm, sleep well

    Storm Nordwind: Namaste

    Mickorod Renard: bye,,thanks

    arabella Ella: thanks

    Mickorod Renard: Pila,,your a clever chap

    Pila Mulligan: oops, I try not to be, but thanks Mick :)

    Wol Euler: I wonder ... if I am not making htis hard for myself by obsessing on the idea that it is an exercise?

    Mickorod Renard: some of us here are from Christian countries

    Wol Euler: perhaps it's actually a koan?

    Wol Euler shushes herself

    Pila Mulligan: where are you from Mick, may I ask?

    arabella Ella: Wool... i think it is a skill ... a way of life

    arabella Ella: an attitude too

    arabella Ella: or outlook on life

    Mickorod Renard: I am from the UK

    Pila Mulligan: and does the religion there affect yu much?

    Mickorod Renard: no,,not at all

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Mickorod Renard: its very free here

    Pila Mulligan: God Save the Queen :)

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,in some ways down to her

    Pila Mulligan: the Brits were more frinedly ot Hawaii than the Yanks, by the way

    Mickorod Renard: but I have a blockage because I look at things through a God type universe

    Pila Mulligan: God works :)

    Mickorod Renard: grin

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i sort of made a sense to myself over God

    Mickorod Renard: even though it may be heritical

    Mickorod Renard: even hysterical

    Pila Mulligan: like Galileo

    Mickorod Renard: perhaps

    Mickorod Renard: but can being and all that stuff be put into context to us

    Pila Mulligan: I don't know

    arabella Ella: well Mick you started off today by saying thanks cos it was helping you relax

    Mickorod Renard: hey,,,,I thought you did theology? ;)

    Pila Mulligan: yes, that's true, and for some it can be integrated and for some not

    Pila Mulligan: my take on it is that each of us develops a personal mythology as we mature

    Pila Mulligan: and then we share myths

    Pila Mulligan: and some of them fit and some don't

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I like that

    Mickorod Renard: I am not fixed to 2000 years ago

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Mickorod Renard: but I am sure something wierd exists

    Pila Mulligan: the strangenss can be oppressive bcaus eit iseems strange

    Pila Mulligan: eventually it may be more appreciated

    Mickorod Renard: I think i am goin in reverse

    Pila Mulligan: don't be in a hurry :)

    Pila Mulligan: you know that place where you saw such a terrible event , you mentoined earlier

    Mickorod Renard: yes

    Pila Mulligan: if Pema came to that place today he would see it much differently than you would see it today

    Fefonz Quan: as long as you look in the back mirror mick

    Mickorod Renard: many places

    Pila Mulligan: just the place itself

    Mickorod Renard: yes?

    Mickorod Renard: why?

    Pila Mulligan: because the place would not have made an impresison on him yet

    Fefonz Quan: back from RL, tried to read backwards, and lost track of existance...

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Mickorod Renard: grin

    Wol Euler: :)

    Fefonz Quan: Storm, you are transforming,what happenned to your hair?

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I had better go

    Pila Mulligan: bye Mick

    Mickorod Renard: thankyou to all

    Wol Euler: 'night mick. and bye all, I should go too.

    arabella Ella: Storm is not here Fef?

    Fefonz Quan: Bye mick, careful when driving in reverse

    Pila Mulligan: thank you :)

    Wol Euler: Goodnight everyone, take care.

    Wol Euler: exist.

    Wol Euler: but not too much.

    Fefonz Quan: that can explain it Ara

    Pila Mulligan: bye Wol

    Mickorod Renard: grin

    Fefonz Quan: night wol

    arabella Ella: bye Mick Wol

    Mickorod Renard: bye Ara fef Pila

    Pila Mulligan: Fefonz, were you halucinating?

    arabella Ella: good question

    Fefonz Quan: in an SL way i guess, on my screen Storm is sitting here

    Pila Mulligan: wow, cool

    arabella Ella: pixels ...

    Pila Mulligan: a remnant image

    Fefonz Quan: even his name appears above his image

    arabella Ella: are we human or are we pixels here

    Pila Mulligan: maybe we are both arabella

    arabella Ella: (as the tune goes)

    arabella Ella: yes i guess so

    Fefonz Quan: you don't see him?

    arabella Ella: no he is not here

    Pila Mulligan: no, he left about ten minutes ago

    arabella Ella: u doing some empirical research now Fef?

    arabella Ella: (only joiking)

    Fefonz Quan: yep, thought he might go if sit therer

    Pila Mulligan: [14:28] Storm Nordwind: Namaste -- 16 minutes ago to be exact

    Pila Mulligan: this is funny

    arabella Ella: i must go too now bye Pila bye Fef

    Pila Mulligan: bye arableaa

    Pila Mulligan: is storm still there Fef?

    Fefonz Quan: yes

    Fefonz Quan: and i'm gone too :)

    Fefonz Quan: see you pila

    Pila Mulligan: okay, will have a nice eveneing

    Pila Mulligan: aloha

    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_

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