2009.04.04 07:00 - Interacting with others

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Wol Euler: saturday 4.4. 7am
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Wol
    Mickorod Renard: how are you?
    Wol Euler: mmmm, middling. headache, weather change.
    Wol Euler: temperature has gone up 15 degrees in the last two days.
    Mickorod Renard: strange,,I have had a few headaches lately
    Wol Euler: probably the same thing.
    Lia Rikugun: helo mick hello wol
    Wol Euler: hello lia
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Lia
    Wol Euler: thank you for covering for me last week!
    Lia Rikugun: oh my pleasure
    Lia Rikugun: are pema and geo coming today?
    Wol Euler: I thought so ...
    Lia Rikugun: ok great
    Wol Euler: something was said about htat in e-mail, but I can't remember


    we are all here for fun ;) SL as an addiction

    Mickorod Renard: do you both come here for fun or is there a work interest?
    Wol Euler: ah, no, he said that Geo has agreed in principle but no date.
    Lia Rikugun: no work interest
    Lia Rikugun: and you mick?
    Mickorod Renard: just fun
    Wol Euler: mick, this is for me just some strange and perverse kind of fun :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    Mickorod Renard: I often wonder whether I should quit
    Lia Rikugun: why?
    Wol Euler: /me's eyes widen.
    Lia Rikugun: the job or PaB?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I feel I am letting RL slip by
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    Wol Euler: it does happen, I'll grant you that.
    Wol Euler: people get addicted to SL - or to tv, or beer ...
    Lia Rikugun: i think this is very important too
    Lia Rikugun: but SL or PaB?
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I have little addiction to those other things,,so I do feel a reasonable balance
    Mickorod Renard: and as you say,,what we do here is enrichening for RL
    Lia Rikugun: i think this is opening up more than closing
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Wol Euler: hello scath
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Scath
    Lia Rikugun: hello scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol, Lia, Mick:)
    Wol Euler: [7:05] Lia Rikugun: but SL or PaB?


    why is it difficult to find reasonable intellectual chat in RL?

    Mickorod Renard: It is sometimes dificult to find reasonable intelectual chat in RL
    Lia Rikugun: i was wondering if you meant dependent from sl or pab?
    Wol Euler nods vigorously.
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I dont do much on SL other than go to P aB and Kira and other Philo meets
    Lia Rikugun: ok me neither
    Wol Euler: maybe you need other SL interests for a little more balance here?
    Wol Euler: (though most of my time goes here too, and most of my friends are now in or around it)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, there is not so much spare time left to explore other things in SL:)
    Mickorod Renard: well I have explored in my early days here,,and I have a home and do things like the garden and create stuff too,,on SL
    Lia Rikugun: why do you think it is so difficult to havemeaningful conversations in RL?
    Lia Rikugun: are people not interested?
    Lia Rikugun: do they have other priorities?
    Lia Rikugun: no time?
    Lia Rikugun: or just afraid maybe?
    Lia Rikugun: to talk openly
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I had been out of the country for some years,,now I am amongst strangers,,except my Son and partner
    Lia Rikugun: all of it somehow:)
    Wol Euler: I think it's harder to find and meet like-minded people in RL.
    Lia Rikugun: ok i understand
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Wol Euler: SL is a "social condensor"
    Wol Euler: it does a tremendous amount of filtering just by existing :)
    Lia Rikugun: but maybe people dont really show hwo they are in RL
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I can understand that
    Lia Rikugun: they take some image depending on the situation
    Mickorod Renard: I meet some of my old friends sometimes and have a good chin wag
    Lia Rikugun: what is chin wag?
    Mickorod Renard: talk
    Lia Rikugun: ahh
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: my english is not the best sory
    Mickorod Renard: I am english,,thats why I am complacent
    Lia Rikugun: i think half of the time i am the reason because i dont have meaningful conversations in RL
    Mickorod Renard: Lia , your english is fantastic,,it is I who am sorry
    Lia Rikugun: because i think I cannot havesuch a conversation with this or that person
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Wol Euler: yes, that is true for me too, lia
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Lia Rikugun: and several times i was surprised that actually it was possible
    Mickorod Renard: I guess it helps when one builds up trust with others
    Lia Rikugun: (several times it was not possible as well :))
    Mickorod Renard: wheras on SL it doesnt seem so relevant
    Lia Rikugun: thats true
    Lia Rikugun: you can just leave
    Wol Euler: buongiorno qt!
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya QT
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello QT
    Lia Rikugun: hello qt


    will people outside of SL understand us?

    Wol Euler: a lot of my emotional life takes place here, now. This is something I find very hard to talk about with people outside of SL
    Lia Rikugun: they wont understand thats true
    Wol Euler: because if they don't know SL, haven't seen it themselves, you sound like an idiot
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,that is true
    Qt Core: i tryed to talk about it outside SL and outside this sim, almost all wonder who is the madder one, me or you all ;-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Lia Rikugun: :) hehe
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Wol Euler: and yet they think themselves perfectly sane for talking all day about Madonna adopting another child!
    Wol Euler: or about TV "reality shows"
    Scathach Rhiadra: or the weather:)
    Wol Euler: that is truly mad
    Qt Core: or new PHP features ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: (germanys next topmodel... :P)
    Wol Euler: ah, no, PHP is useful! ;)
    Wol Euler: yes, lia, exactly.
    Mickorod Renard: It is suprising how many people in RL hold onto dark questions and never ask anyone
    Lia Rikugun: what do you mean by dark question
    Qt Core: why is the water so "weak" ?
    Mickorod Renard: SL can release that burdoner
    Wol Euler: the fountain? I turned it down
    Qt Core: ok, just wondering
    Mickorod Renard: well,,dark as in retained as too ambarasing to air in public
    Mickorod Renard: simple things..like,,erm does God exist
    Wol Euler: that is true, mick. People are afraid to speak as openly in RL as we do here


    the social convention that everybody is supposed to be happy - "How are you?" - "bad."

    Wol Euler: or "why am I unhappy"
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Lia Rikugun: thanks mick
    Mickorod Renard: or,,why does the world seem so unfair
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Wol Euler: because there is a social convention in RL that we are all happy and successful and having a wonderful time
    Wol Euler: and it's really not acceptable to disagree with that
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
    Mickorod Renard: or,,can one fly
    Lia Rikugun: we see this in all movies coming out, everynody happy ...
    Wol Euler: yep
    Qt Core: do they/we fear to be told to work toward the "real" problems and not "silly" things ?
    Lia Rikugun: brainwashing
    Wol Euler: and in other media too, everyone who isn't a mass murderer is happy and lucky and having a graet time
    Wol Euler: apparently...
    Scathach Rhiadra: and if someone asks how you are, you are expected to answer 'fine, ty':)
    Wol Euler: right
    Mickorod Renard: maybe it is a good thing people in rl are not so open
    Wol Euler: there is a different social convention in SL, somehow, we are allowed to be more honest here
    Mickorod Renard: it would be more depressing
    Wol Euler: I disagree mick, I think it would be less so.
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Wol Euler: part of our common depression is believing that we are alone with the darkness.
    Mickorod Renard: maybe that is true
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Wol Euler: if we knew that everyone else was unhappy too, it would seem less like our personal fate or failure
    Qt Core: sometimes i find that people, even here in sl are somewhat offended if i resp[ond that i'm not good to the how are you question
    Mickorod Renard: a problem shared is a problem halved
    Qt Core: and i'm not speaking about health
    Lia Rikugun: usually it is an uncomfortable sitiuation
    Wol Euler nods
    Qt Core: that is "accepted"
    Lia Rikugun: because dont know how to react
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,there is an expected routine to greetings
    Mickorod Renard: condition again
    Lia Rikugun: i like this mircowave food-is-done sound :D
    Wol Euler: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Qt Core: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Wol Euler: ha, a clear round!
    Wol Euler: we all get extra karmapoints for that
    Scathach Rhiadra: heh:)
    Lia Rikugun: how many do we need?
    Mickorod Renard: lots
    Qt Core: i'm about to level-up ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: I have 12.34 now
    Wol Euler: well, I'm a dog in RL so I need fewer points than you lot for my next level change :)
    Lia Rikugun: oh wow, but very intelligent dog who can speak
    Lia Rikugun: and WRITE!
    Lia Rikugun: cool
    Wol Euler: writing is easier, that's why I don't do voice.
    Wol Euler: just don't have the right kind of larynx, you know?
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Qt Core: better that than not having the right kind of brain ;-)
    Wol Euler grins
    Wol Euler: back to social conditioing, though...


    fighting social conditioning!!

    Qt Core: i fought that most of my life
    Mickorod Renard: I was a rebel
    Lia Rikugun: tell us more qt and mick please
    Mickorod Renard: after u QT
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes please:)
    Qt Core: i wasn't a rebel, but i only wanted to do ( and be) things my way
    Mickorod Renard: an idealist?
    Lia Rikugun: :D
    Mickorod Renard: some call me one of them
    Qt Core: i was sent to a shrink justr after my first week ar kindergarden as i wasn't aligned with the dad work and mum stay at home vision ;-)
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
    Qt Core: i draw my mother working and my father doing the dishes ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: HAHA great!!
    Lia Rikugun: love that
    Wol Euler: and that must of course be wrong!
    Mickorod Renard: I did role reversal in RL
    Wol Euler: no household could be like that!
    Lia Rikugun: and in ITALY
    Wol Euler snarls
    Qt Core: and in the '70
    Mickorod Renard: my Son called me Mum for years
    Lia Rikugun: hehehe
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Qt Core: thanks god my patents were friend with the shring so it ended in a laugh ;-)
    Qt Core: parents
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I just had a bad overdose of hormones at 15 and they are just about getting down to normal
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Mickorod Renard: 35 years later
    Wol Euler: wow
    Lia Rikugun: ;)
    Mickorod Renard: now I am almost calm
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I am talking figuratively
    Mickorod Renard: not medically
    Qt Core: there is a topic i argue often with "normal people", work career
    Wol Euler: oh, I assumed that you meant medical, because I met a woman who'd been mis-treated and had had great problems because of it.
    Wol Euler: good, that's a relief.
    Mickorod Renard: noo,,I was just crazy as a kid,,and just stayed a bit crazy afterwards
    Lia Rikugun: crazy is good
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I like it
    Wol Euler: certain kinds of crazy are good.
    Qt Core: norlam is just boring ;-)
    Qt Core: normal
    Mickorod Renard: it keeps me young too
    Lia Rikugun: qt what work career discussions?
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Mickorod Renard: hi Syle
    Sylectra Darwin: Greetings.
    Qt Core: it is most about promotions
    Lia Rikugun: hello sylectra
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sylectra
    Wol Euler: hello sylectra, nice to meet you.
    Sylectra Darwin: Hi Wol! I think we've been in a few Guardian meetings together, a while back.
    Wol Euler: ah, that might be. with nostrum ...


    QT tells us about his "work career" discussions: promotion means stopping what you do and start managing it. do you want this?

    Qt Core: the arguing is about my refusal to search for promotions
    Sylectra Darwin: grins
    Qt Core: i'm at the point where a promotion would mean stopping doing what i do and starting managing it
    Lia Rikugun: ah
    Wol Euler: right! why should you want that?
    Mickorod Renard: promotion often leads to more pressure
    Wol Euler: and to the loss of doing the work that got you interested in the first place
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Qt Core: i wonder why all thinks that being able to do means being able to manage it
    Wol Euler: happens particularly in teaching. The good teachers are promoted to heads, so they don't teach any more
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Qt Core: exactly Wol
    Qt Core: my fields is programming but it is the same
    Sylectra Darwin: I have seen that in some forward thinking business environments, they promote their best people but not to management - more like Senior Specialist and stuff like that.
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: there should be more reward for commitment and loyalty rather than ladder climbing
    Qt Core: so you rally have to see how many people can't understand that... but you get more money, you get Power...
    Qt Core: really*
    Wol Euler: problem is that the higher-ups are by definition ladderclimbers :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: and recognition that other abilities exist, not just management
    Wol Euler: yep
    Qt Core: another source of "social pressure" is school, how many times some schoolmate told me but you have to do ... all are doing that
    Wol Euler nods


    are we programmed like a computer who need to be rebooted from time to time? (programmers talking among each other ;)

    Mickorod Renard: I have often wondered whether we are programmed ..like a computer,,with a basic program
    Qt Core: so that's the problem : basic... wrong wrong language ;-)
    Wol Euler laughs
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Qt Core: sorry
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Mickorod Renard: and every so often need a virus scan and an clearout
    Wol Euler: still, could have been worse: might have been cobol
    Qt Core: (starting to cry as i know/knew both)
    Mickorod Renard: some time ago my brain nearly came to a halt cos of all the pressure and junk built up
    Mickorod Renard: and then it sort of got re booted,,runs much better now
    Wol Euler nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Qt Core: a couple times i heven had some form of reverse social pressure
    Sylectra Darwin: glad to hear it, Mickorod. :)
    Mickorod Renard: the trouble now is that I look at people around me and see that they are running really slow and ,,,all full of virus
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Mickorod Renard: grin


    reverse social pressure. listening to music which is too normal

    Mickorod Renard: whats this reverse social stuff QT?
    Qt Core: that happens when i tell to "non aligned" people that sometimes i like to hear hous/disco music
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Qt Core: and they say it is so... normal i should not like it
    Mickorod Renard: I like all sorts of music,,even my son is shocked
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: and I was around when the beatles were top
    Scathach Rhiadra: so the 'non-alligned' people can have their own 'normalcy' rules of behaviour
    Wol Euler smiles. Does anyone else find their tastes broadening as they get older? Mine certainly are, I was very "definite" when I was younger
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Qt Core: yes
    Mickorod Renard: sometimes I come home to find son and mates listening to Jimmy Hendrick now
    Lia Rikugun: (sorry i need to go, want to buy a bed and shops close in one hour...)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: a worthy endeavour, lia!
    Lia Rikugun: byebye everyone
    Mickorod Renard: bye Lia
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lia, see you later
    Wol Euler: bye lia, take care.happy hsopping
    Lia Rikugun: thank you wol
    Qt Core: i think that many, most groups (whichever is the things that keeps them togheter) will ever suffer from the US/them problem
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Mickorod Renard: sub cultures?
    Qt Core: maybe even not consciously
    Mickorod Renard: there is a big brother system in the uk
    Mickorod Renard: and all in sub cultures are looked upon suspiciously
    Mickorod Renard: at least u have the freedom to belong to a subculture,,still
    Sylectra Darwin: Folks, I need to go. It was good seeing you briefly!
    Sylectra Darwin: Be well.
    Qt Core: sometimes just saying that i'm in chat/virtual worlds and being more than 25... bring up suspicius thought, am i a maniac ?
    Wol Euler: bye syl, take care.
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Syelectra


    humans need to feel that they are loved versus contemplatives who thrive on being alone

    Mickorod Renard: one thing that seems paramount to me is that humans need to feel that they belong,,or are loved,,etc
    Mickorod Renard: bye Syle
    Wol Euler nods to QT
    Qt Core: oh yes, we need friends... and enemies
    Wol Euler: yes, mick
    Wol Euler: one might say "we are herd animals"
    Mickorod Renard: I think as long as you are a nice maniac it is ok
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: being alone is the worst fate
    Mickorod Renard: as in un loved
    Qt Core: i think that this need come straight from our more animalistin and instinctual part
    Qt Core: just an element of our survival instinct
    Scathach Rhiadra: yet there are a lot of contemplatives who thrive on being alone
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,its what made humans so successful
    Qt Core: and some even whitout having to contemplate anything ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: that is so true Scath
    Mickorod Renard: come to think of it
    Mickorod Renard: but presumably they find a way around it
    Qt Core: if you have no problem with the loliness being alone is a lot simpler than having to manage society
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Mickorod Renard: like a loving connection to God or whatever is their cup of tea
    Qt Core: or just a good stack of book and a nice bed
    Wol Euler: perhaps tht connection is all the society they need?
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: some I have met who have years alone in mountain retreats, and are the most sociable people when dealing with people
    Mickorod Renard: I am a creature of my past,,I have never been alone from the point of view never having a person in my life
    Wol Euler apologises for her pragmatic and worldly, not so say grubby, mentality. What do tehy eat, and who supplies it to them?
    Scathach Rhiadra: seems they can adapt to circumstances very easily
    Scathach Rhiadra: sometimes, they have someone from a monastry who brings a few months food a a time, every few months


    enforced and voluntary isolation

    Mickorod Renard: my issues in the past,,and to some point now,,are that I fear the lonliness
    Wol Euler nods. Would you expand on that Mick? (If you wish to)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I spent some time alone,,for periods,,and in isolation,,and it was dificult for me
    Mickorod Renard: soz
    Mickorod Renard: I was living in a remote place,,land of diferent language etc,,and partner had to stay away for periods
    Wol Euler nods.
    Mickorod Renard: I felt the isolation bad
    Mickorod Renard: of and on for 7 to 8 years had its toll
    Mickorod Renard: I was a social animal,,almost in captivity
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, there is a big difference between enforced and voluntary isolation
    Wol Euler: oh yes
    Mickorod Renard: yes it is
    Mickorod Renard: so eventually I chose to do something about it
    Wol Euler smiles
    Mickorod Renard: but it took a long time because it seemed selfish of me to do so
    Mickorod Renard: but the time for me was like a wilderness experience,,and I had time to think and change
    Mickorod Renard: and see what I valued
    Wol Euler: hello steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Steve
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Steve
    Qt Core: hi steve
    Wol Euler: it sounds in retrospect like a useful and worthwhile experiene, mick, even if an uncomfortable one at the time
    Mickorod Renard: yes it was..and I have no regrets
    Wol Euler: good :)
    Mickorod Renard: but I am still putting my life in shape
    Mickorod Renard: I think,when I left the UK I was fed up with humanity
    Mickorod Renard: after the period,,I realised that being a social person and interacting with others is possibly what life is about
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: even for all the problems
    Qt Core: this will sound strange but i'll say it nonetheless... i don't like to be social but the times i am forced/force myself to i enjoy it
    Mickorod Renard: I think from a p a b point
    Mickorod Renard: yes QT
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Qt Core: (and i'm more social online as there is the little red button to stop it all)
    Mickorod Renard: I think that instead of running away from it,,as I did,,,seeing what is good or looking at it from diferent perspectives is a better way
    Mickorod Renard: not confrontational,,not running,,but just being



    Wol Euler: I'm sorry, but I will have to move on. I was up too early this morning, I need a nap before I fall out of my chair.
    Wol Euler: bye for now, friends. see you later.
    Qt Core: bye Wol
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wol, see you later:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Wol
    Mickorod Renard: bye wol
    Scathach Rhiadra: I had better go and do some shopping too, see you all later, Namasté
    Mickorod Renard: bye Scath
    Mickorod Renard: nameste
    Qt Core: bye Scath
    Mickorod Renard: I have to go too,,lots to sort out here
    stevenaia Michinaga: I jsut came in from working on my fence, off to lunch sortly
    stevenaia Michinaga: shortly
    Mickorod Renard: big fence?
    Qt Core: i have a couple things to do too, and it was quite a long session too
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice that you ahd an extended meeting
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, small fence
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,just relaxed
    Mickorod Renard: what u doin to it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: lots of prep
    stevenaia Michinaga: painting it, filling holes at the moment
    Mickorod Renard: mm,,still,,nice when its done
    stevenaia Michinaga: puddy is mamzingly messy stuff
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    Mickorod Renard: linceed?
    Mickorod Renard: love the smell
    stevenaia Michinaga: carpenters puddy, water based
    Mickorod Renard: ahh
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,see you all
    Qt Core: bye Mick
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye QT
    stevenaia Michinaga: good seeing yu again
    Qt Core: same here
    Qt Core: Ciao!

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