2009.04.08 13:00 - Play as Being Retreat Center Meeting #1

 The Guardian for this session was Genesis Zhangsun.

Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Wester Kiranov: hi all
Corvuscorva Nightfire gave you Play as Being retreat site.
Storm Nordwind: To give some background to my previous comment, Steve suggested it might be nice to have some background music at the session about a RL retreat center. Pila suggested an IP for streaming Hawaiian music : http://67.228.177.15:9056
Pila Mulligan: hi genesis
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Pila Mulligan: yep, but that stream is not so good, so let's proceed wihtout, Storm
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Storm Nordwind: Agreed!
Pila Mulligan: actually it was Bertrum's idea I learned on re-reading the chat log
Storm Nordwind: It's gone now - phew!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: now there *is* good Hawaian music Storm, so don;t let this taint you
Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi adams!
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Adams
PaB Listener Master: genesis Zhangsun has just claimed the session and will receive link to the log after the session is done. This replaces any previous claim.
Pila Mulligan: hi Qt
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Qt!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Gen has kindly given us a space to talk about a possible retreat facility this session. For this particular session, we have alot of time to discuss it. After this, we'll jsut talk about it at the beginning of the Wednesday session.
sophia Placebo: hi Qt
AAdams Rubble: Hello Qt
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Qt
sophia Placebo: hi adam
Qt Core: Hi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Welcome to the first Wednesday session on the theme of "A real life retreat facility"

Pila and I are co-guardians for these sessions. Stevania could not be here due to a
prior family commitment. Pema and Storm round out the initial membership of the Google
group at http://groups.google.com/group/pab-rl where anyone interested is most welcome
and invited to join.

If you do not yet have the note card for these theme sessions, please let me know so I
can give it to you.

Stevenaia is an architect in real life, and he had some comments about what architect's
refer to as developing a master plan.

He said, "the nature of 'place' needs to be thought about. What's included in the short
term and ideas for the long term, including how far the vision reaches into the future
and how the facility can be sustained." 

"Think about a broad concept of what this place will be, even aggregating a listing of
word-concepts, and a firm image of the plan will slowly materialize.

Corvuscorva Nightfire's PaB Listener: Oh no! Corvuscorva%20Nightfire's last sentence was too long, 17 letters were lost.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I apologize that's alot to read at once.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Storm Nordwind: A sense of place is important. Equally important, in my humble opinion, is a sense of what the place is already like. Without that, we would be imposing our wish on the land. I suggest we also let the land speak to us. That is the way I work personally.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Pila Mulligan: ... very Hawaiian Storm :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Maybe we should begin at the beginning by asking Pema to tell us more about his original inspiration that led to the idea of a retreat facility.
Pema Pera: it was one of those moves that spontaneously happened
Storm Nordwind: Just very ... anyone who is in tune with indigenous spirituality, as I have been in the UK Pila
Pema Pera: Geo and I were talking about conversations between Christian and Buddhist monks
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: and I wondered out loud about letting them live together
Pema Pera: rather than just talk together
Pema Pera: and then I thought: we can apply that idea to ourselves too :)
Pema Pera: for those of us who are interested
Pema Pera: either part of the year or even the whole year
Pema Pera: and others might come visit, using the place as a retreat center
Pema Pera: I myself am not in a position to live there full time
Pema Pera: wherever it will be, Hawaii or elsewhere
Pema Pera: for various reasons, from having a job that requires me to be elswhere, for example
Pema Pera: but I can imagine that some of us might be happy to actually live in a PaB community
Pema Pera: Corvi and Pila, how would you like us to discuss the ideas?
Pila Mulligan: yes please
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Corvuscorva Nightfire: Perhaps we could talk about what might make it interesting to our fellow PaB'ers to live in a retreat center, or if there is anything that would make that interesting? What would it need to be like to interest?
Pila Mulligan: Pema, so your original inspiration was the idea of a kind of quasi-monastic residential facilty that could also host retreat sessions
Pila Mulligan: that is intereting in itself, and Corvi's comments are the next step
Pema Pera: yes, but perhaps more cumminty like than monastic, somethign in between
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: maybe we should talk more about the community idea then
Pema Pera: so the style could be more community like, and the connection with the notion of "monastery" more the fact of having a shared attitude -- the "openness of PaB" attitude
Pila Mulligan: yep, and the the netx stpe, for example, woul dbe are there people already in the PaB community interested in lviing in such a place? (anywhere in the world)
Pema Pera: anybody here speak up :-)
Pila Mulligan: including Princeton, Colorado, California or wherever works :)
Pila Mulligan: as the community location
Pema Pera: of course, we have less than 20% of the guardians here, so we should ask the question on the PaB email list
Pila Mulligan: Malta :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins
Pema Pera: And perhaps it is too early to know whether we would like to actually live there
Pila Mulligan: maybe we should make two tracks for the discussion then
Qt Core: family/works constraints are huge
Pila Mulligan: one, the residential idea
Pila Mulligan: two, a retreat facility idea
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to QT
Pila Mulligan: separate only for discussion
Pema Pera: Yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that seems like a good plan to me, too.
Pema Pera: and perhaps the most natural thing would be to tackly the retreat center idea first
Qt Core: brief periods, from just a we to a couple week
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to QT.
Pema Pera: and to plan that it such a way that some of the buildings and/or plots could later be turned into more permanent dwellings
Storm Nordwind: I like the idea of a retreat facility. I am not personally interested in residence. I do think it should be on the US mainland though, simply to make it more accessible and affordable for people to get there.
Pila Mulligan: as a practical matter, Storm's point is well taken
Pema Pera: it depends a bit on the duration of the retreats
Pema Pera: for a one-week retreat, sure
Pema Pera: Hawaii is far away from most places
Pema Pera: but if we talk about a month-long retreat, or even summer-long
Pema Pera: perhaps the travel costs are then only a small part of the picture
Storm Nordwind: No I strongly disagree Pema. please check out the prices of flights to Hawaii and compare them to inland flights. The costs do not diminish just because you're there longer!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: So one consideration we should keep in mind is the cost of retreating.
Pema Pera: the costs of everything else is higher for a month long stay, meaning that the *relative* costs of transportation is less
Adams Rubble slips quietly away. bye all :)
Pema Pera: so for a longer stay, the most important thing is to have relatively cheap lodging
Storm Nordwind: People are not interested in relative. It comes out of their bank balance as an absolute amount
Pila Mulligan: maybe we can table this point momentarily and look at the likely uses of a retreat facility, with the location left to be determined later?
Pema Pera: sure
Pila Mulligan: ok Storm?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think the point in all that we will want to consider is making the retreat possibility affordable.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: for a wide variety of folks.
Storm Nordwind: If we use the version of "table" that only the US uses, then sure! :)
Pema Pera: but now that Storm raised the question, perhaps I should explain what I really meant
Pila Mulligan: Ok
Pema Pera: if you go somewhere for a week, you have to pay as much for a flight as for room and board
Pema Pera: roughly speaking
Pema Pera: so both should be kept relatively cheap
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Pema Pera: if you go somewhere for 1 or 3 months, you spend far more on room and board
Pema Pera: so the most important question is to find a place that is cheap for room and board
Pema Pera: since that may well offset a higher price for travel
Pema Pera: do you agree, Storm?
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Storm Nordwind: /It's a deceptive comparison. I can live for 2 months on what it takes me to fly to the US from the UK, for example. If you reduce the overall cost of a retreat, even a long obe, by $500 (for example) then most people would be glad of that!
Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.
sophia Placebo: i'll leave quietly
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think too, to STorm's point..there are a few of us...me included...who would love to retreat but really are constrained by cost.
Pila Mulligan: bye sophia
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Sophia..thanks for coming!
Storm Nordwind waves to sophia!
Pema Pera: I'm not convinced that we can find affordable land near a major airport hub
Pema Pera: if we go to a small town far away from a major airport hub, flight prices become far higher
Storm Nordwind: You might try Scotland then!
Pila Mulligan: this then leads to the questionof funding, to support such costs, but these dieas seem to me to follow the more immediate idea of what would the facility be -- in terms of use and struture
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. I think these are very good issues to start raising.
Storm Nordwind: True Pila. Please lead on!
Pila Mulligan: these are certainly ocnsiderations, not to diminish them
Pila Mulligan: but to apply for a grant you need more than this :)
Pila Mulligan: can we talk about our image of the ideal retreat facility?
Pila Mulligan: how ouwld it be used? in the best possible world?
Pila Mulligan: Pema?
Pema Pera: I think it depends on the length of stay
Pema Pera: if it is only for a week or so, a few times a year, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent center
Pema Pera: it would be far cheaper to rent a place
Qt Core: it shpld help both the silence and the communication between its guests
Pila Mulligan: nic epoint
Pila Mulligan: Qt?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like that QT!
Pema Pera: so we are probably talking about several-months durations
Corvuscorva Nightfire: the space whould help both the silence and the communication?
Pila Mulligan: the place, yo mean QT?
Qt Core: yes, place for meditations and places for discussions, not meeting rooms, but just for an example couches, benches
Pila Mulligan: or, it possible, even a pavaillion like this one in SL :)
Qt Core: yes, but i'm thinking about smalles groups, 3/5
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
Pila Mulligan: how many times a year would there be events do you imagine?
Qt Core: not sure, shorter periods around major holidays, longer during the rest of the year (if it is a stable thing)
Pila Mulligan: so roughly according to ordinary holiday scheules?
Pila Mulligan: Pema od ouy imagine having more than a few eeks available any time other than summer?
Pila Mulligan: thinking scheudles
Pema Pera: the more I think about it now, the more I see that permanent residence is an important part of the equation
Qt Core: if it would pe a permanent thing at leas some should be there all year round to manage it
Pila Mulligan: I agree, with both
Pema Pera: *if* enough people would be there permanently, you could imagine using the rest of the place for both shorter and longer periods, as the case may be
Pila Mulligan: the residence distinction is essential to the planning
Pema Pera: if there would *not* be permanent residence, it only would pay to have significantly longer retreats
Storm Nordwind: All places need upkeep too, and the residents could do that
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
Pila Mulligan: caretaking and meditating :)
Wester Kiranov: maybe even more, like growing our own food...
Pema Pera: so perhaps a "community" would be a central piece of the plan
Pila Mulligan: now there's a practical consideration Wester
Pema Pera: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
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Qt Core: if permanent it would be useful to think about what "services" on payment or not it could provde to the community where it is
Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: can you give examples, QT?
Pila Mulligan: community services in terms of doing more than just having sessions for PaB folks, Qt?
Qt Core: there are PaBers with 30 and more years of meditation experience
Qt Core: part of the money needed for it can come from meditation lessons
Pema Pera: Actually, with current internet-mediated job opportunities, people living permanently (or say, half of the year) at the center could still work and have a regular income. So not only for people retiring.
Pila Mulligan: so the residents oculd also teach and practice with the community
Pila Mulligan: their real life neighbors
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes
Pila Mulligan: and do thier day job on the web :)
Pema Pera: so "neighborhood" could be the whole world, internet wise -- but yes, RL neighbors would be different
Corvuscorva Nightfire: there are some, several PaB'ers who can do their job from anywhere with internet.
Pema Pera: there are zen centers that have bakeries
Pema Pera: or home less shelters, etc
Pila Mulligan: food banks
Pema Pera: arts & craft :)
Pila Mulligan: we are in the zone where Steve was saying word clouds help :)
Qt Core: doing things and/or teaching things
Pila Mulligan: just toss out terms as ideas
Wester Kiranov: and teach each other what we know
Pila Mulligan: taking walks
Pema Pera is now imagining a PaB village . . . :)
Qt Core: inside and outside the retreat (being the teacher for an "outside" course may pay for part of the stay)
Pila Mulligan: raising cows
Pema Pera: and crows?
Pila Mulligan: making cheese
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahah
Pema Pera: or a small PaB country . . . .
Pema Pera: like Liechtenstein
Pila Mulligan: Pema's enthusiasm is showing
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahha
Wester Kiranov: or just wait until you have infected all of Holland ;-)
Pema Pera: Ludentia
Pema Pera: (from "homo ludens")
Pema Pera: (humans as playful)
Qt Core: very nice ;-)
Pila Mulligan: making light
Storm Nordwind: Make Pabbist beer
Pema Pera: nice too, yes!
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Pila Mulligan: light beer too
Wester Kiranov: :-D
Corvuscorva Nightfire: beer...yes
Pema Pera wondering which country to target for a friendly regime change
Wester Kiranov: lol
Wester Kiranov: some place for yoga, tai chi, massage..
Pema Pera: what would be the best growth model, to get it started?
Pema Pera: if we would have something like that, it could be quite attractive for others to join
Pema Pera: the question is whether to start with 2 or 3 people, or whether you need a significantly larger critical mass
Storm Nordwind would just like to interject that he has, at Pema's request, inhibited the silence message, mist and trailing bell at the start of a session only (i.e. 4 times a day). This is so that it does not conflict with all the greetings that occur at the start of a session. Please let him know whether or not that works OK.
Qt Core: good, i felt that silence as an akward one quite often
Pema Pera: the drawback of 2 or 3 people is that they will not have the money to buy a larger plot
Pema Pera: and may thus not have the chance to grow
Storm Nordwind nods
Pema Pera: the drawback of say 10 people is that we probably won't find 10 people anytime soon :-)
Wester Kiranov: So, we need a minimum amount of permanent residents, and a certain minimum of otherwise active supporters
Pema Pera: One compromise could occur if we can find a relatively cheap plot of land that is relatively big and that could be bought by just 2 or 3 people with room to grow
Pema Pera: yes
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Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.
Pema Pera: Even though I see the drawbacks of Hawaii in terms of distance, I think we can use it for a while as the one concrete option we have of a piece of land actually for sale -- if nothing else to focus our minds on a concrete situation.
Storm Nordwind agrees
Pema Pera: Pila, how many people could live permanently on that plot of land?
Wester Kiranov: (looks at watch and disappears down rabbit hole - sorry)
Pila Mulligan: 10 or so
Pila Mulligan: bye Wester
Pema Pera: bye Wester!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye WEster!
Qt Core: as sad as it can be the hardest part is making it economically sustenaible
Corvuscorva Nightfire: right.
Pila Mulligan: very true qt
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but there are two bits to this discussion
Pila Mulligan: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: one is this one, of practical considerations.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and the other is a dreaming one, considering ideas and possibilities.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: whether or not we begin this project soon...part of the idea is to consider what could be.
Pila Mulligan: and waking and dreaming alternate :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Qt Core: yes, and things like the retreat you'll have this sunmer can have "planning the future" sessions too
Pema Pera: we could do that, but we won't have much time for that during the relatively short retreat
Storm Nordwind agrees with Pema on that
Pema Pera: it's five days, four nights, so only three full days
Qt Core: and there could even be some downscale experiment just getting a cabin in the woods ;-)
Pema Pera: or a rabit hole, Wester would have said :)
Pila Mulligan: so one the practical start-soon-and-let-it-grow side the first task is to indentify real people interested in such a residence now, and for the imagining side the continuing task is to let the dream vision grow even without any dirt yet beneath its feet
Corvuscorva Nightfire: brb
Pema Pera: yes, that makes sense
Storm Nordwind: And we have the land in SL right behind us to experiment with
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: btw, I have to leave now too
genesis Zhangsun: bye
Pila Mulligan: is this theme dicussion going as oyu hoped Pema, should it continue?
genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone me too
Pila Mulligan: on Wednesdays?
Pema Pera: yes, I think it can continue
Pila Mulligan: ok
Pema Pera: if that's okay with Gen?
genesis Zhangsun: sure
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema and genesis
Pema Pera: for fifteen minutes we said?
Storm Nordwind apologises for bringing $$ into it!
Pila Mulligan: thanks
genesis Zhangsun: I don't know if I will be here for the whole time'
Pila Mulligan: inescapable Storm :)
genesis Zhangsun: but I will definitely claim the log
Pema Pera: the first fifteen minutes?
Pila Mulligan: and draft the deeds whent he time is ripe
Pila Mulligan: well, then, i move that we adjourn for today
genesis Zhangsun: the first 15 to discuss?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: if that's okay?
Pema Pera: 13:00 to 13:15
Pema Pera: I second, Pila :)