2009.04.09 13:00 - Dialogue Fefonz-Pema #6

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    The guardian for this session was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Adelene, wester
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Storm
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Storm :)
    Wester Kiranov: hi storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hieveryone
    Adelene Dawner: Hiya Pem :)
    Fefonz Quan: nice new horn Ade :)
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Fefonz Quan: hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Yes, indeed, Adelene!
    Storm Nordwind agrees
    Pema Pera: Hi Adelene, Fefonz, Wester, Storm!
    Wester Kiranov: fijn dat je er weer bent pema ;)
    Pema Pera: ja, weg van teruggeweest :)
    Wester Kiranov: :D
    Fefonz Quan: is it only me or there are colorful twinklings going around here
    Adelene Dawner: I can turn it off if it's a diastraction, Fef.
    Fefonz Quan: no, it's nice :)
    Adelene Dawner: thanks ^.^
    Fefonz Quan: like small crack in space opening and closing

    I began by reminding people it was dialogue session.

    Storm Nordwind: So we hope to continue the dialogue today that we interrupted last week because of login problems
    Pema Pera: and because of roming hoards of Dutch and Belgian avatars . . . .
    Storm Nordwind: And the rolling restart has already passed over us here

    Pema also summarised where we were up to.

    Pema Pera: So Fefonz and I have had quite a number of theme meetings now
    Pema Pera: would we like to continue those?
    Pema Pera: or switch to something else?
    Pema Pera: Being seeing was the last theme
    Pema Pera: or Being and all that
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Pema Pera: if I remember correctly
    Storm Nordwind: What is your preference Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: mostly i would think that the interest of the audience is imprtant
    Storm Nordwind: I was interested in the last theme. I am interested in very many of them.
    Pema Pera: Hi Udge!
    Storm Nordwind: We can wait a moment to ask the others perhaps

    We paused while we decided on the topic.

    Wester Kiranov: hi udge
    Pema Pera: Wester and Adelene?
    Udge Watanabe: hello everyone
    Storm Nordwind: Greetings Udge!
    Pema Pera: Hi Udge, we're talking about what to talk about
    Udge Watanabe: heheheheh
    Udge Watanabe: meta-meeting
    Adelene Dawner doesn't have any particular suggestions today.
    Pema Pera: the earlier themes of Being seeing or something different
    Udge Watanabe: we might talk about Spring?
    Fefonz Quan: ONe question i can think of , is like closing the circle, coming back to Being, and than contrast it with the appereciating appearances
    Pema Pera: go right ahead, Fef!
    Wester Kiranov: I think about any theme can be helpful, as long as it doesn't encourage idle chat tooo much
    Storm Nordwind agrees
    Fefonz Quan: :) good point Wester
    Storm Nordwind: And that's a good one Fef
    Squee: The only tyrant I accept in this world is the still voice within.
    Pema Pera looking forward to see Fef close a circle :)


    Fefonz began his questions

    Fefonz Quan: So our last investiagtion was about 'Being seeing' if i recall
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: a very powerful way to cut through any kind of problem
    Fefonz Quan: and another term we used (and still discuss wuite a lot on mondays) is APA
    Pema Pera: and yes they are related
    Fefonz Quan: Appereciation of the presences of appearances
    Pema Pera: Hi Tenk!
    Tenk Kidd: Hi Pema :)
    Fefonz Quan: when i contemplate both of them, i seee a difference that might be worthy of looking into
    Fefonz Quan: in APA, which i find more natural (except when Stim talk aabout it, which throws me away ;-))
    Fefonz Quan: i am sitting quitely in my chair, drop my concepts as i can, and 'observe' teh appearances rising around me, (which includes feelings, thoughts etc.)
    Fefonz Quan: and also 'color' it with some appereciatin, trying not to do it forcefully.
    Fefonz Quan: Then, in 'Being seeing', it's more like 'taking my hands of the wheeldrive', thus letting Being (whatever that means) take over.
    Fefonz Quan: So it doesn't sounds the same, or is it? how does others feel about it?
    Pema Pera: If I can make a suggestion, as a practice during the next 90 seconds break: how about a combination: Let Being appreciate the presence of appearance?
    Pema Pera: see what happens :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Sophia
    sophia Placebo: hello
    sophia Placebo: hi fef

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    Fefonz Quan: i was done, should i recopy my last question?
    Pema Pera: sure
    Fefonz Quan: [13:13] Fefonz Quan: Then, in 'Being seeing', it's more like 'taking my hands of the wheeldrive', thus letting Being (whatever that means) take over.
    [13:14] Fefonz Quan: So it doesn't sounds the same, or is it? how does others feel about it?
    Fefonz Quan: (or we can speak about the exercise)
    Pema Pera: [13:14] Pema Pera: If I can make a suggestion, as a practice during the next 90 seconds break: how about a combination: Let Being appreciate the presence of appearance?
    Pema Pera: either way, Fef!
    Udge Watanabe: hello aurel
    Pema Pera: Hi Aurel!
    aurel Miles: hello Everyone!
    aurel Miles: sorry to come in late
    sophia Placebo: hi aurel
    Fefonz Quan: well, at least for me that is to much concepts to observe in one short meditation
    Pema Pera: np, Aurel, all of us come and go here :)
    Fefonz Quan: hi aurel
    aurel Miles: Hi
    aurel Miles: hi hi
    Wester Kiranov: I though it was a nice pointer back to wwhat Play as Being means (pemas exercise)
    Wester Kiranov: and now the computer is needed - might see some of you at stim's talk
    Fefonz Quan: bye west/
    Pema Pera waves to Wester's computer
    Udge Watanabe: bye wester
    Wester Kiranov: namaste
    aurel Miles: ByeWester
    Adelene Dawner: I think I'll head out too - getting a bit of a headache, going to go take a nap. See you all next time. :)
    aurel Miles: Bye Adelene
    Fefonz Quan: Bye ade :)
    Udge Watanabe: sorry to hear it, Ade. Take care,
    aurel Miles: wow - do i know how to clear a room, or what?
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    sophia Placebo: :)

    Pema told us his own impression and this was followed by a confusion over Fefonz's words!

    Pema Pera: One difference I felt was that in appreciating the presence of appearance, I was trying to drop concepts in a subtle way, while in letting Being appreciate, there was no longer any sense in dropping anything, there was just appreciation for anything that presented itself
    aurel Miles listens, trying to pick up the thread
    Fefonz Quan: if i can talk about the original Being seeing, (not the linear combination), i wasn't sure the appereciatin was there
    aurel Miles: i do not understand that word
    aurel Miles: and that is causing me to stumble a bit
    Fefonz Quan: which word Aurel?
    Udge Watanabe: "appreciation"?
    aurel Miles: apperciatin
    aurel Miles: yes
    aurel Miles: i've never seen or heard it before
    aurel Miles: maybe it's context?
    aurel Miles: i thought it was appreciation
    aurel Miles: but -
    aurel Miles: maybe I'm being thick - i will listen for a while
    Fefonz Quan: surely you are correct aurel
    Fefonz Quan: sorry for my engrrish :)
    Pema Pera appreciates the linguistic difficulties :)
    Pema Pera: yes, we are talking about appreciating, Aurel
    Pema Pera: the sentence we sometimes work with in Play as Being is:
    Pema Pera: "appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being"
    Pema Pera: or for short "appreciate the presence of appearance"
    Pema Pera: in other words, appreciate the presence of all that shows itself in any way
    Fefonz Quan: ops, maybe there is something for me there

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    aurel Miles: that concept is extremely dense - complex
    aurel Miles: especially using this medium
    Pema Pera: as a concept yes, but the idea is to repeat this sentence in RL, many times, quietly
    Pema Pera: as a kind of meditation
    Fefonz Quan: yes, maybe thats why it's about the tenth meeting of last weeks focusing on it :)
    Pema Pera: or like a sweet to hold under your tongue
    Pema Pera: So one way to unwrap it is to start at the end
    Pema Pera: with "appreciation"
    Pema Pera: sorry
    Pema Pera: with "appearance" :-)
    Pema Pera: so step 1) : see everything as an appearance
    Pema Pera: you see a table: see the appearance of a table
    Pema Pera: you think a thought: view the thought as an appearance of a thought
    Pema Pera: same with feelings, imaginations, anything, a smell, a touch
    Pema Pera: step 2) : focus on the presence of that appearance
    Pema Pera: ultimately, we don't know what the nature of reality is
    Pema Pera: so we don't know what the real nature of that appearance is
    aurel Miles noods
    aurel Miles nods
    Pema Pera: but the one thing we know is that it is present
    aurel Miles: is the appearance
    Pema Pera: so that at least we can acknowledge wholeheartedly
    aurel Miles: is that right?
    Fefonz Quan: (trying to balance the circle)
    Pema Pera: and in doing so appreciate it whole heartedly
    Pema Pera: yes
    aurel Miles: i think i am beginning to see
    Pema Pera: so it's a refinement, a distillation
    Pema Pera: a chair is no longer primarily a tool, or something to sit on or buy
    Pema Pera: a chair is a chair
    Pema Pera: to be appreciated in its presence
    aurel Miles: or the appearance of one
    Pema Pera: a thought is a thought
    Pema Pera: yes, you can thus appreciate the one taste of appearance
    Pema Pera: that will happen by itself
    Pema Pera: Hi Gen!
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Gen :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
    aurel Miles: HI Genesis
    sophia Placebo: hi gen
    Udge Watanabe: hello gen

    Fefonz's questions having been addressed, Pema started a dialogue with aurel!

    Pema Pera: Does that help, Aurel?
    aurel Miles: yes it does
    aurel Miles: but
    Fefonz Quan: I appreciate that explanation Pema, it was nice adn clear
    Pema Pera: do you see parallels with first Nation practices?
    aurel Miles: well
    aurel Miles: i find it helpful to stop a step before the chair being a chair
    aurel Miles: i like the stretch i feel when i think about the chair or the thought
    aurel Miles: as the appearance of a chair or a thought
    Pema Pera: yes
    aurel Miles: because that makes room for the idea that i may not understand its nature
    Pema Pera: YES!
    aurel Miles: and that, in turn, makes room for paradox and contradiction
    aurel Miles: and that - (pardon my rambling)
    Pema Pera: (not at all, Aurel!)
    aurel Miles: makes me think of the idea of matter as being not-solid (you enter into everything you touch - if find that interesting)
    Storm Nordwind likes intelligent rambling!
    aurel Miles: and that returns me to the first nations idea that everything is
    aurel Miles: imbued with its own life
    Pema Pera: yes, matter and also thoughts -- so often our thoughts seem impenetrable at first . . . .
    aurel Miles: in communication with other lives
    aurel Miles: but the communication is always different
    aurel Miles: and always exactly the same
    aurel Miles: ha - sorry
    aurel Miles: but that is one central idea that i really like
    Fefonz Quan liked the word - imbued :)
    aurel Miles: there are so many ways to express that
    Pema Pera: the one taste pervading the ten thousand appearances . . . .

    aurel brought in an artistic concept to illustrate her ideas

    aurel Miles: have you ever seen a haida depiction of an animal
    aurel Miles: yes!
    aurel Miles: if you look at Haida art
    aurel Miles: every point at which an animal is jointed
    aurel Miles: or makes contact
    Pema Pera: http://www.brianhayes.com/images/hai...easing-sun.jpg
    aurel Miles: with their environment
    aurel Miles: every point has an oviod
    aurel Miles: ovoid
    aurel Miles: a lot has been written about that
    Udge Watanabe nods thoughtfully
    genesis Zhangsun: what is an ovoid?
    aurel Miles: but a little of it is that those points are points of contact - like communication
    aurel Miles: an ovoid is like a rounded rectangle
    genesis Zhangsun: ty :)
    aurel Miles: like an eye
    aurel Miles: and if you go one step further
    aurel Miles: often when a whale is drawn
    aurel Miles: or carved
    aurel Miles: there is a face in the blowhole

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    Pema Pera: http://www.houseofthespiritbear.com/...aida_whale.jpg
    aurel Miles: as though that communication has a perspective of its own
    aurel Miles: it's more clear in drawings
    aurel Miles: the Hunt Brothers work
    aurel Miles: for example
    aurel Miles: he united the two worlds
    aurel Miles: tends to be more traditional that way than Reid
    aurel Miles: anyway
    aurel Miles: that's what i'm thinking about - it's easy to see on Raven's wings
    aurel Miles: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...num=1&ct=image
    aurel Miles: whew
    aurel Miles: let me clean that up
    Pema Pera: yes, we can learn a lot about appreciation that way, from many traditions -- like Shinto in Japan too

    gen drew some parallels

    genesis Zhangsun: aurel Miles: as though that communication has a perspective of its own
    genesis Zhangsun: I thought this was an interesting idea
    aurel Miles: http://www.nativeonline.com/limited.html
    genesis Zhangsun: gives me a sense that there are eyes everywhere
    aurel Miles: it's also like Pema said
    aurel Miles: the appearance of presence
    aurel Miles: oops
    Pema Pera: :)
    aurel Miles: the presence of appearance
    Pema Pera: that too!
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    aurel Miles: ha

    Udge Watanabe quietly excuses himself. "It's been a long day and I am falling asleep in my chair. Goodnight all, happy Easter/Pesach/Spring to you."

    genesis Zhangsun: and yet Being has no perspective
    genesis Zhangsun: and complete perspective
    aurel Miles: yes
    aurel Miles: exactly
    Pema Pera: allowing all perspectives
    Pema Pera: u 2 U
    aurel Miles: everything is "right"
    genesis Zhangsun: yes perhaps allowing is a better word
    genesis Zhangsun: less of a sense of posession
    aurel Miles nods
    Pema Pera: possession is about past and future
    Pema Pera: presence is free arising
    aurel Miles: i find in my own cultural context so many people are afraid that they will be wrong in a discussion
    aurel Miles: especially when it comes to First Nations issues
    aurel Miles: that if i can reassure them that even if i hold an opposing view
    Pema Pera: I'm so glad you are sharing all this with us, Aurel
    aurel Miles: their view is absolutely correct
    aurel Miles: thank you -
    aurel Miles: it opens them
    aurel Miles: it allows them to express
    Pema Pera: yes, complementary
    aurel Miles: and it takes their fear away
    aurel Miles: not even just that
    aurel Miles: i really believe it
    Pema Pera: view
    aurel Miles: and that's a First Nations rooted belief too
    Pema Pera: yes, that is appreciation -- for any heartfelt viwe
    aurel Miles: that you are correct - and so am i
    genesis Zhangsun: to reassure them is a skillful way to communicate
    aurel Miles: and it is our pleasure
    aurel Miles: to share our variations
    Pema Pera: sounds like PaB!

    Fefonz needed an explantion of something that had been assumed. He may not have been the only one!

    Fefonz Quan: can we have some words on what First NATION IS?
    aurel Miles: sorry
    aurel Miles: I'm Canadian
    aurel Miles: partly of Mohawk descent
    aurel Miles: but raised on the west coast
    aurel Miles: in my country
    aurel Miles: we call - indigenous people
    aurel Miles: First Nations
    aurel Miles: because they were the First to be in North America
    Fefonz Quan: indigenious?
    aurel Miles: i was raised with West Coast native traditions
    aurel Miles: but my bloodline is Mohawk which is Eastern - I
    aurel Miles: well
    aurel Miles: 20 years ago you would have said
    aurel Miles: Indians
    aurel Miles: Indians
    aurel Miles: then Native American became popular
    Fefonz Quan: yes, the decades when people understood what others talk about ;-)
    aurel Miles: sometimes we use Aboriginal to include Metis and Inuit
    aurel Miles: is quite insulting
    aurel Miles: but the term Indian
    Fefonz Quan: WHY IS IT INSULTING?
    genesis Zhangsun: well it was a product of a historical mistake
    aurel Miles: yes but it also picked up a lot of racist connotations

    Mid explanation, I had to interject...

    Storm Nordwind does not want to disrupt such a great discussion, but begs to remind people that Stim's Ways of Knowing Workshop starts in 3 minutes at 2:00pm SLT. But please return and continue this same time next week!

    Fefonz Quan: (sorry for caps lock)
    aurel Miles: along the way
    genesis Zhangsun: because Columbus landed in North America not India :)
    aurel Miles: because for one thing -
    aurel Miles: we are not all the same
    aurel Miles: i don't look like a Haida womnan
    aurel Miles: i am quite distinctly Mohawk in my manner and appearance
    Fefonz Quan: neither the original indians - hundreds of ethnics there !
    aurel Miles: althouggh usually people just assume i am "white"
    aurel Miles: and that's fine too cause i am that too
    aurel Miles: yup
    aurel Miles: but - in Canada the Indian Act
    aurel Miles: has been the cause of a lot of misery
    aurel Miles: so we do try to move away from that word
    aurel Miles: you know?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Fefonz Quan: i see
    Pema Pera: words are very important
    Fefonz Quan: thanks for the explanation
    aurel Miles: i hope it helped
    genesis Zhangsun: yes thankyou :)
    aurel Miles: i am happy to go back to listening - thank you
    Pema Pera: as you told me, especially within First Nation traditions

    Pema Pera: we'll be off to Stim's talk now
    genesis Zhangsun: yes right!
    Pema Pera: thank you, Aurel !!
    Storm Nordwind: You're all welcome to come along!

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    aurel Miles: thanks Gen!
    aurel Miles: where?
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks Aurel nice meeting you
    Fefonz Quan: thank you all for joining us :)
    aurel Miles: thank you
    aurel Miles accepted your inventory offer.
    genesis Zhangsun: are we all going to Stim's talk?
    Fefonz Quan: me all yes :)
    Storm Nordwind nods in silence "Please join us at the kira Cafe!"

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