2009.04.10 19:00 - Hope and other ills

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. Adelene was the guardian.

    Adelene Dawner: Hullo, Eos :)

    Eos Amaterasu: How now, playing as Being?

    Adelene Dawner: :)

    Pila Mulligan: hi Dae, hi Eos

    Pila Mulligan: Ade*

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pila

    Adelene Dawner: hi, Pila ^.^

    Pila Mulligan: Ade, what are you doing?

    Adelene Dawner: playing with a script. :)

    Pila Mulligan: have you been here before Eos?

    Eos Amaterasu: No, this is my first time

    Pila Mulligan: ahh, well let me give you the little rap, then ... :)

    Eos Amaterasu: :-)

    Adelene Dawner: Thanks, Pila. :)

    Pila Mulligan: there a chats here four times a day

    Pila Mulligan: :) yer welcome Ade

    Pila Mulligan: on various subjects relating to reality, or in some cases, non-reality :) they can be interesting or verbose or whatever dending on yor point of view (Pila editorializing there)

    Pila Mulligan: hi threedee

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi threedee

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi sky

    Threedee Shepherd: Hi folks

    Pila Mulligan: hi Sky

    Sky Szimmer: hi everyone!

    Pila Mulligan: the chats here are recorded (text) and posted on a blog

    Pila Mulligan: so if you don't want your comments published please let Ade know so she can dlete them

    Eos Amaterasu: OK

    Pila Mulligan: there's anote card with some more info

    Eos Amaterasu: thnx

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: any thoughts for a chat topic, anyone?

    Sky Szimmer: wondering about the idear of hope

    Pila Mulligan: nice idea Sky, hope :)

    Threedee Shepherd: Sky, I can be skeptical and use the definition that hope is the confusion of desire with probability :(

    Sky Szimmer: yes. there is that.

    Sky Szimmer: so in a way, hope can be "dangerous"

    Pila Mulligan: Threedee is a a closet metaphysicist :)

    Threedee Shepherd: No, I am an outed pragmatist

    Pila Mulligan: just when you think he is going to rationalize you into a corner he opens some door into the possibility of the wierd

    Pila Mulligan: hi aurel

    Adelene Dawner: hi :)

    Threedee Shepherd: Always worth a look through that door, Pila

    Pila Mulligan: I agree threedee

    aurel Miles: hello

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi aurel

    Threedee Shepherd: Hi aurel

    Pila Mulligan: Elijah maybe there :) (a Passover thought)

    Threedee Shepherd: True

    Pila Mulligan: welcoem to guardianship aurel

    aurel Miles: ha - thank you

    Pila Mulligan: or being a guradian may be more accurate :)

    aurel Miles: i thought that might just pass unnoticed

    Pila Mulligan: few things do :)

    Eos Amaterasu: Is hope losing confidence in Being, or having confidence in Being?

    Pila Mulligan: it seems optimistic to me Eos, so I'd say the latter

    aurel Miles: what a good question

    aurel Miles: people forget the old greek story about where hope came from

    Sky Szimmer: do tell

    Threedee Shepherd: But, If one has confidence in Being, why is hope necessary?

    Pila Mulligan: aha :)

    aurel Miles: it was at the bottom of the box of human ills that pandora opened

    Sky Szimmer: what is the significance of that?

    aurel Miles: well

    aurel Miles: it wasn't in the happy gift pack

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    aurel Miles: it was one of the curses

    aurel Miles: or packed away with them

    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box

    aurel Miles: when you read Tarot cards there is a position in the reading for "hopes and fears"

    aurel Miles: and one card represents both

    Pila Mulligan: In Greek mythology, Pandora's box is the large jar carried by Pandora that contained evils to be unleashed on mankind "ills, toils and sickness" and finally hope.

    Adelene Dawner: hmm

    aurel Miles: and in First Nations thought

    aurel Miles: one thing is always its opposite at the same time

    Adelene Dawner: I always read that position as 'expectations' when I read cards, which is interesting here...

    aurel Miles: i like the duality

    Eos Amaterasu: "the bandits of hope and fear" ....

    aurel Miles: for me it brings the issue deeper

    Threedee Shepherd: Does hope mean a "wish" for a particular future outcome?

    aurel Miles: good question

    aurel Miles: i know hope is not faith

    aurel Miles: but it can sustain faith sometimes

    Sky Szimmer: hope does bring about time of past, present and future

    Eos Amaterasu: Hope can be desperate, or hope can be confident?

    Threedee Shepherd: Can hope be an aspect in confidence of ones-self?

    Sky Szimmer: so if you have faith, then there is no need for hope?

    aurel Miles: i am trying to think of what hope does in my own life

    Eos Amaterasu: FAith is a ripply topic :-)

    aurel Miles: i have a situation where i do have a lot of hope

    aurel Miles: but

    aurel Miles: i try not to express it

    aurel Miles: or fixate on it

    aurel Miles: because it feels like that would damage the actual situation

    aurel Miles: you know?

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: not to entangle yourself in the hoped for end perhaps

    aurel Miles: hope is good when it is secret

    Eos Amaterasu: I think the separating from the actual situation is key

    aurel Miles: as long as it does not replace active participation

    Eos Amaterasu: ie, hope can be used to escape from Being?

    Sky Szimmer: sounds like that 's alot of hope wrapped up in fear, Aurel: )

    Pila Mulligan: Eos noted earlier that hope can arise with both despair and confidence

    aurel Miles: no - not really, i think what i am trying to say is that hope can influence sincere actionm

    aurel Miles: and it can change the nature of your intereaction with people

    aurel Miles: and things

    aurel Miles: it can color things

    Threedee Shepherd: as a help or as a jinx, aurel?

    aurel Miles: let's simplify

    aurel Miles: um - say you really wanted a set of speakers for your computer

    aurel Miles: and you knew the exact set

    aurel Miles: and someone who loved you knew the exact set too

    aurel Miles: and your birthday was coming

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    aurel Miles: and they asked you not to buy those speakers

    aurel Miles: which sets off hope

    Pila Mulligan: as epxectaion

    aurel Miles: hope that maybe those speakers will show up

    aurel Miles: as a birthday present

    aurel Miles: then

    aurel Miles: when a different set of speakers shows up

    aurel Miles: (much more elaborate and difficult to use)

    aurel Miles: the hope you had for the original set

    aurel Miles: changfes the nature of how you respond to the gift

    aurel Miles: but

    aurel Miles: say you fall in with someone

    aurel Miles: and you hope they love you too

    aurel Miles: that's not the same

    aurel Miles: it doesn't influence your reception of that person in the same way

    aurel Miles: that's what i'm trying to get at

    aurel Miles: there are times when hope is natural

    aurel Miles: and sustains faith

    aurel Miles: when that person you love doesn't call

    aurel Miles: or when there is some misunderstanding

    aurel Miles: then hope helps

    aurel Miles: but if it is applied the other way

    aurel Miles: hoping for a specific thing

    aurel Miles: then it can really be destructive

    Threedee Shepherd: Is there a difference that matters when hope relates to your own future actions, versus the future actions of another person?

    aurel Miles: the speaker thing dfid happen to me btw

    aurel Miles: i hate those speakers

    aurel Miles: and every time i look at them

    Eos Amaterasu: sounded like it :-)

    aurel Miles: i am angry

    Threedee Shepherd: I would have returned them in exchange for the ones I wanted

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Adelene Dawner: ^.^

    aurel Miles: it was - as it always is - much more complicated than that

    aurel Miles: he hoped to impress me

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    aurel Miles: by doing more than i needed

    aurel Miles: by giving more

    aurel Miles: by being smarter about me than me

    aurel Miles: etc etc etc

    aurel Miles: and his feelings weere very raw

    aurel Miles: i couldn't take them back

    aurel Miles: we are not in contact anymore

    Eos Amaterasu: So what's the diff with hoping someone loves you back?

    aurel Miles: but theyt are stiull stupidly expensive annoying and in my house

    aurel Miles: well

    aurel Miles: that's what i am asking

    aurel Miles: hoping for tangibles always seems to go awry

    aurel Miles: but hoping for - i'm not sure what it is

    aurel Miles: hoping your perception is accurate?

    aurel Miles: is that what hoping love is reciprocated is?

    aurel Miles: it's not tangible

    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, you've touched something hard to articulate

    Eos Amaterasu: Hoping for co-Being?

    Adelene Dawner: [19:40] Threedee Shepherd: is there a difference between hope and want? [19:40] Adelene Dawner: want in the sense of 'would prefer' can happen without hope. [19:40] Adelene Dawner: Hope is want+emotions :)

    Eos Amaterasu: Hope ≠ Desire?

    Sky Szimmer: how does hoping for some future outcome differ than manifesting one's reality

    aurel Miles: but hoping your feelings are reciprocated is not the same kind of want

    aurel Miles: i think hoping puts it outside of you

    aurel Miles: and in many cases, that's not where it belongs

    Eos Amaterasu: Is the seed hopeful?

    Threedee Shepherd: There is a country music lyric that goes: "Lord, I hope this day is good. I feel so unhappy and misunderstood. Lord I hope this day is good." What *kind* of hope is that< in the context of this theme?

    Pila Mulligan: sounds like Eos's reference to desperate hope

    Eos Amaterasu: Songs often have contrry emotions going: the day could be good 'cause of misunderstood

    Sky Szimmer: thanks everyone for a wonderful discussion on hope. I got to run. Ciao.

    Pila Mulligan: hope fits nicely in the gray area of free will

    aurel Miles: thanks sky

    Pila Mulligan: bye Sky

    Threedee Shepherd: If I am giving a dinner party tomorrow, and I hope it goes well, what kind of hope is that.

    aurel Miles: bye

    Eos Amaterasu: thnx, ciao!

    Pila Mulligan: nice topic :)

    Threedee Shepherd: by sky

    Threedee Shepherd: bye

    aurel Miles: not sure - reasonable?

    Pila Mulligan: pragmatic :)

    Eos Amaterasu: intentional?

    Threedee Shepherd: Is wanting things to go well and smoothly really in the category of hope, I'm not sure.

    Pila Mulligan: wanting things to go well and smoothly may be one of the most fundamental of hopes

    Eos Amaterasu: "hope it works out this time" :-)

    Threedee Shepherd: It could be a condition you intend to work towards, all else being equal. That is not quite what I thin of as hope. It is antion towards a goal.

    Pila Mulligan: as in 'hope I don't have to be a cow next time' ? :)

    Pila Mulligan: Threedee, what was the last ypo? 'It is antion towards a goal'

    aurel Miles: i hope so too

    aurel Miles: ;)

    Eos Amaterasu: action?

    Pila Mulligan: action?

    Pila Mulligan: is action really sufficeint to determine if things to go well and smoothly?

    Threedee Shepherd: action

    Pila Mulligan: or to cause them to?

    Eos Amaterasu: after rough seas, a hopeful day can dawn, which seems to be more being back in the groove....

    Threedee Shepherd: rarely is anything sufficient

    Pila Mulligan: the idea of in the groove suggests things going well and smoothly

    Threedee Shepherd: suffient as a cause, that is

    Pila Mulligan: but it seems to be a step beyond intentional will or action -- it seems to involve some chance or luck

    Pila Mulligan: yep

    Pila Mulligan: welcome back Ade

    Threedee Shepherd: yes, chance and luck are a part, I would agree

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Adelene Dawner crashed :P

    aurel Miles: welcome back Adelene

    Pila Mulligan: so maybe hope is related to a desire for luck :)

    Adelene Dawner: :)

    Eos Amaterasu: hope as confidence in synchronicity?

    Eos Amaterasu: ie, expression of well-being

    Pila Mulligan: to me synchronicity is more a symptom than an end, Eos

    aurel Miles: i agree

    Pila Mulligan: yes, it can be a symptom of well-being

    Eos Amaterasu: but maybe that gets back to aurel talking about reciprocity

    aurel Miles: maybe

    aurel Miles: in that case, maybe hope is just wanting to be seen

    aurel Miles: wanting to be recognized -

    Threedee Shepherd: I notice that we seem to be talking about a number of things that happen to be called one thing. For example, I hope s/he loves me, vs. I hope it doesn't rein tomorrow.

    Pila Mulligan: wandering through wiki, I came upon this: 1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now abideth faith, hope, and love, even these three: but the chiefest of these is love".

    Pila Mulligan: hope is a any faceted term it seems

    Pila Mulligan: many*

    Threedee Shepherd: Yes Pila, but the Hope of that verse refers to the hope of devine grace upon death.

    Pila Mulligan: as in 'hope I don't have to be a cow' in Hinudism :)

    Pila Mulligan: (that was a bad joke during the moent of silecne)

    Pila Mulligan: 9my apologies:)

    aurel Miles: so that goes back to hoping for intangibles

    aurel Miles: or for a response

    aurel Miles: because divine grace is not speakers

    aurel Miles: you know?

    aurel Miles: it's returned love

    Pila Mulligan: the thing about the verse that I noted was how it places hpoe so high among the theological values of christianity, even if it is related to divine grace -- we have looked at it from many angles here and there it is up among the highest of vlaues

    aurel Miles: true

    Threedee Shepherd: but for the Greeks, a dangerous thing, as Pila noted.

    aurel Miles: at christmas

    aurel Miles: when i used to teach sunday school

    aurel Miles: i let the children know the metaphor

    aurel Miles: because i think theology is all about metaphors

    aurel Miles: and most of the great religions share the same one at that time of year

    aurel Miles: light in the darkness

    aurel Miles: hope where there is no hope

    aurel Miles: and that is an essential thing

    aurel Miles: a holy thing

    Pila Mulligan: refraining from despair

    aurel Miles: sacred

    aurel Miles: if you've ever read Victor Frankl's book

    Eos Amaterasu: that's close to Being, isn't it?

    aurel Miles: man's search for meaning

    aurel Miles: yes

    aurel Miles: in one sense it's all about hope

    aurel Miles: but it's all about hope in the face of how illogical it is to hope

    aurel Miles: hope that defies expectation

    aurel Miles: hope that does not attach to a specific outcome

    Eos Amaterasu: hope not dependent on logic, more primordial

    aurel Miles: but rather to the idea of transcendence

    aurel Miles nods

    Pila Mulligan: or luck :)

    aurel Miles: or faith

    Pila Mulligan: wanting things to go well and smoothly persists even after a search for menaing loses steam, it seems

    aurel Miles: i am not sure how yuo come to that conclusion

    Pila Mulligan: except among masochists perhaps

    Pila Mulligan: well, I'm so old that my search for menaing ended, but my wanting things to go well and smoothly continues :)

    Eos Amaterasu: You mean the cliché existentialist still wants good coffee?

    Pila Mulligan: :) kind of Eos

    aurel Miles: i hope -

    aurel Miles: hmm

    Pila Mulligan: now please don't take the end of the search for meaing out of context, it is not a bad thing :)

    Threedee Shepherd: Well, folks, I need to go attend to a bit of RL. Thanks for the conversation, and--may I sayI hope we all have a good evening :)

    Pila Mulligan: thanks Threedee, same to you -- see you next time

    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!

    aurel Miles: Bye 3d

    aurel Miles: well - this has been fascinating as always

    aurel Miles: and i will think about it for quite a while

    aurel Miles: thank you for having me

    Adelene Dawner: :)

    Pila Mulligan: bye aurel

    aurel Miles: i hope i will see you all soon!

    Eos Amaterasu: Thank you!

    Pila Mulligan: well, Eos, there you have it :)

    Eos Amaterasu: Ah!

    Pila Mulligan: another Play a sBeing chat session :)

    Eos Amaterasu: Pretty good!

    Eos Amaterasu: In the 90-second gaps, I n otice they're not always observed....

    Pila Mulligan: yes, they help balance the conversation when they are

    Adelene Dawner: Yep, it's voluntary, not all of us do the meditations at all.

    Pila Mulligan: here is the web site, by the way: http://playasbeing.wik.is/

    Eos Amaterasu: What happens with the transcripts?

    Pila Mulligan: they get p[osted there

    Adelene Dawner: Some of our members can't make it as regularly as they want, and keep up by reading there, and it's also useful to have them to refer back to :)

    Pila Mulligan: are you the guardian tonite Ade?

    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm

    Pila Mulligan: each session there is a designated person -- guradian in the lingo -- to take the log an dpost it to the wiki

    Pila Mulligan: this has been going on for a littel over a year now

    Eos Amaterasu: A regular group?

    Adelene Dawner: 28 times a week :)

    Pila Mulligan: yep -- and this site has some related workshops -- http://kira.org/

    Adelene Dawner: We meet every 6 hours.

    Pila Mulligan: weekly instead of daily

    Pila Mulligan: at kira's

    Eos Amaterasu: Kira's cafe?

    Pila Mulligan: or a session is held every six hours, any number of folks appear from timte to time

    Pila Mulligan: yes

    Eos Amaterasu: I took the balloon over earlier today

    Pila Mulligan: there is a workshop there on dreams on tuesdays and one on buddhist ethics thrusdays that I like

    Pila Mulligan: 2 pm SLT for both

    Pila Mulligan: and more ...

    Adelene Dawner yaaaawns... "I think it's time for me to head home, or I'm going to be sleeping here tonight."

    Pila Mulligan: theyhave aclendar on the kira website

    Pila Mulligan: :) sweet dreams Ade

    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ 'night, Pila.

    Eos Amaterasu: Time for me to check out too. Good night, all!

    Pila Mulligan: I *hope* you sleep well

    Adelene Dawner: hehehe

    Pila Mulligan: bye Eos, nie to meet you

    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!

    Pila Mulligan: aloha

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