Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. Adelene was the guardian.
Adelene Dawner: Hullo, Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: How now, playing as Being?
Adelene Dawner: :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Dae, hi Eos
Pila Mulligan: Ade*
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pila
Adelene Dawner: hi, Pila ^.^
Pila Mulligan: Ade, what are you doing?
Adelene Dawner: playing with a script. :)
Pila Mulligan: have you been here before Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: No, this is my first time
Pila Mulligan: ahh, well let me give you the little rap, then ... :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Adelene Dawner: Thanks, Pila. :)
Pila Mulligan: there a chats here four times a day
Pila Mulligan: :) yer welcome Ade
Pila Mulligan: on various subjects relating to reality, or in some cases, non-reality :) they can be interesting or verbose or whatever dending on yor point of view (Pila editorializing there)
Pila Mulligan: hi threedee
Eos Amaterasu: Hi threedee
Eos Amaterasu: Hi sky
Threedee Shepherd: Hi folks
Pila Mulligan: hi Sky
Sky Szimmer: hi everyone!
Pila Mulligan: the chats here are recorded (text) and posted on a blog
Pila Mulligan: so if you don't want your comments published please let Ade know so she can dlete them
Eos Amaterasu: OK
Pila Mulligan: there's anote card with some more info
Eos Amaterasu: thnx
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: any thoughts for a chat topic, anyone?
Sky Szimmer: wondering about the idear of hope
Pila Mulligan: nice idea Sky, hope :)
Threedee Shepherd: Sky, I can be skeptical and use the definition that hope is the confusion of desire with probability :(
Sky Szimmer: yes. there is that.
Sky Szimmer: so in a way, hope can be "dangerous"
Pila Mulligan: Threedee is a a closet metaphysicist :)
Threedee Shepherd: No, I am an outed pragmatist
Pila Mulligan: just when you think he is going to rationalize you into a corner he opens some door into the possibility of the wierd
Pila Mulligan: hi aurel
Adelene Dawner: hi :)
Threedee Shepherd: Always worth a look through that door, Pila
Pila Mulligan: I agree threedee
aurel Miles: hello
Eos Amaterasu: Hi aurel
Threedee Shepherd: Hi aurel
Pila Mulligan: Elijah maybe there :) (a Passover thought)
Threedee Shepherd: True
Pila Mulligan: welcoem to guardianship aurel
aurel Miles: ha - thank you
Pila Mulligan: or being a guradian may be more accurate :)
aurel Miles: i thought that might just pass unnoticed
Pila Mulligan: few things do :)
Eos Amaterasu: Is hope losing confidence in Being, or having confidence in Being?
Pila Mulligan: it seems optimistic to me Eos, so I'd say the latter
aurel Miles: what a good question
aurel Miles: people forget the old greek story about where hope came from
Sky Szimmer: do tell
Threedee Shepherd: But, If one has confidence in Being, why is hope necessary?
Pila Mulligan: aha :)
aurel Miles: it was at the bottom of the box of human ills that pandora opened
Sky Szimmer: what is the significance of that?
aurel Miles: well
aurel Miles: it wasn't in the happy gift pack
Pila Mulligan: :)
aurel Miles: it was one of the curses
aurel Miles: or packed away with them
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box
aurel Miles: when you read Tarot cards there is a position in the reading for "hopes and fears"
aurel Miles: and one card represents both
Pila Mulligan: In Greek mythology, Pandora's box is the large jar carried by Pandora that contained evils to be unleashed on mankind "ills, toils and sickness" and finally hope.
Adelene Dawner: hmm
aurel Miles: and in First Nations thought
aurel Miles: one thing is always its opposite at the same time
Adelene Dawner: I always read that position as 'expectations' when I read cards, which is interesting here...
aurel Miles: i like the duality
Eos Amaterasu: "the bandits of hope and fear" ....
aurel Miles: for me it brings the issue deeper
Threedee Shepherd: Does hope mean a "wish" for a particular future outcome?
aurel Miles: good question
aurel Miles: i know hope is not faith
aurel Miles: but it can sustain faith sometimes
Sky Szimmer: hope does bring about time of past, present and future
Eos Amaterasu: Hope can be desperate, or hope can be confident?
Threedee Shepherd: Can hope be an aspect in confidence of ones-self?
Sky Szimmer: so if you have faith, then there is no need for hope?
aurel Miles: i am trying to think of what hope does in my own life
Eos Amaterasu: FAith is a ripply topic :-)
aurel Miles: i have a situation where i do have a lot of hope
aurel Miles: but
aurel Miles: i try not to express it
aurel Miles: or fixate on it
aurel Miles: because it feels like that would damage the actual situation
aurel Miles: you know?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: not to entangle yourself in the hoped for end perhaps
aurel Miles: hope is good when it is secret
Eos Amaterasu: I think the separating from the actual situation is key
aurel Miles: as long as it does not replace active participation
Eos Amaterasu: ie, hope can be used to escape from Being?
Sky Szimmer: sounds like that 's alot of hope wrapped up in fear, Aurel: )
Pila Mulligan: Eos noted earlier that hope can arise with both despair and confidence
aurel Miles: no - not really, i think what i am trying to say is that hope can influence sincere actionm
aurel Miles: and it can change the nature of your intereaction with people
aurel Miles: and things
aurel Miles: it can color things
Threedee Shepherd: as a help or as a jinx, aurel?
aurel Miles: let's simplify
aurel Miles: um - say you really wanted a set of speakers for your computer
aurel Miles: and you knew the exact set
aurel Miles: and someone who loved you knew the exact set too
aurel Miles: and your birthday was coming
Pila Mulligan: :)
aurel Miles: and they asked you not to buy those speakers
aurel Miles: which sets off hope
Pila Mulligan: as epxectaion
aurel Miles: hope that maybe those speakers will show up
aurel Miles: as a birthday present
aurel Miles: then
aurel Miles: when a different set of speakers shows up
aurel Miles: (much more elaborate and difficult to use)
aurel Miles: the hope you had for the original set
aurel Miles: changfes the nature of how you respond to the gift
aurel Miles: but
aurel Miles: say you fall in with someone
aurel Miles: and you hope they love you too
aurel Miles: that's not the same
aurel Miles: it doesn't influence your reception of that person in the same way
aurel Miles: that's what i'm trying to get at
aurel Miles: there are times when hope is natural
aurel Miles: and sustains faith
aurel Miles: when that person you love doesn't call
aurel Miles: or when there is some misunderstanding
aurel Miles: then hope helps
aurel Miles: but if it is applied the other way
aurel Miles: hoping for a specific thing
aurel Miles: then it can really be destructive
Threedee Shepherd: Is there a difference that matters when hope relates to your own future actions, versus the future actions of another person?
aurel Miles: the speaker thing dfid happen to me btw
aurel Miles: i hate those speakers
aurel Miles: and every time i look at them
Eos Amaterasu: sounded like it :-)
aurel Miles: i am angry
Threedee Shepherd: I would have returned them in exchange for the ones I wanted
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
aurel Miles: it was - as it always is - much more complicated than that
aurel Miles: he hoped to impress me
Pila Mulligan: :)
aurel Miles: by doing more than i needed
aurel Miles: by giving more
aurel Miles: by being smarter about me than me
aurel Miles: etc etc etc
aurel Miles: and his feelings weere very raw
aurel Miles: i couldn't take them back
aurel Miles: we are not in contact anymore
Eos Amaterasu: So what's the diff with hoping someone loves you back?
aurel Miles: but theyt are stiull stupidly expensive annoying and in my house
aurel Miles: well
aurel Miles: that's what i am asking
aurel Miles: hoping for tangibles always seems to go awry
aurel Miles: but hoping for - i'm not sure what it is
aurel Miles: hoping your perception is accurate?
aurel Miles: is that what hoping love is reciprocated is?
aurel Miles: it's not tangible
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, you've touched something hard to articulate
Eos Amaterasu: Hoping for co-Being?
Adelene Dawner: [19:40] Threedee Shepherd: is there a difference between hope and want? [19:40] Adelene Dawner: want in the sense of 'would prefer' can happen without hope. [19:40] Adelene Dawner: Hope is want+emotions :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hope ≠Desire?
Sky Szimmer: how does hoping for some future outcome differ than manifesting one's reality
aurel Miles: but hoping your feelings are reciprocated is not the same kind of want
aurel Miles: i think hoping puts it outside of you
aurel Miles: and in many cases, that's not where it belongs
Eos Amaterasu: Is the seed hopeful?
Threedee Shepherd: There is a country music lyric that goes: "Lord, I hope this day is good. I feel so unhappy and misunderstood. Lord I hope this day is good." What *kind* of hope is that< in the context of this theme?
Pila Mulligan: sounds like Eos's reference to desperate hope
Eos Amaterasu: Songs often have contrry emotions going: the day could be good 'cause of misunderstood
Sky Szimmer: thanks everyone for a wonderful discussion on hope. I got to run. Ciao.
Pila Mulligan: hope fits nicely in the gray area of free will
aurel Miles: thanks sky
Pila Mulligan: bye Sky
Threedee Shepherd: If I am giving a dinner party tomorrow, and I hope it goes well, what kind of hope is that.
aurel Miles: bye
Eos Amaterasu: thnx, ciao!
Pila Mulligan: nice topic :)
Threedee Shepherd: by sky
Threedee Shepherd: bye
aurel Miles: not sure - reasonable?
Pila Mulligan: pragmatic :)
Eos Amaterasu: intentional?
Threedee Shepherd: Is wanting things to go well and smoothly really in the category of hope, I'm not sure.
Pila Mulligan: wanting things to go well and smoothly may be one of the most fundamental of hopes
Eos Amaterasu: "hope it works out this time" :-)
Threedee Shepherd: It could be a condition you intend to work towards, all else being equal. That is not quite what I thin of as hope. It is antion towards a goal.
Pila Mulligan: as in 'hope I don't have to be a cow next time' ? :)
Pila Mulligan: Threedee, what was the last ypo? 'It is antion towards a goal'
aurel Miles: i hope so too
aurel Miles: ;)
Eos Amaterasu: action?
Pila Mulligan: action?
Pila Mulligan: is action really sufficeint to determine if things to go well and smoothly?
Threedee Shepherd: action
Pila Mulligan: or to cause them to?
Eos Amaterasu: after rough seas, a hopeful day can dawn, which seems to be more being back in the groove....
Threedee Shepherd: rarely is anything sufficient
Pila Mulligan: the idea of in the groove suggests things going well and smoothly
Threedee Shepherd: suffient as a cause, that is
Pila Mulligan: but it seems to be a step beyond intentional will or action -- it seems to involve some chance or luck
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: welcome back Ade
Threedee Shepherd: yes, chance and luck are a part, I would agree
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adelene Dawner crashed :P
aurel Miles: welcome back Adelene
Pila Mulligan: so maybe hope is related to a desire for luck :)
Adelene Dawner: :)
Eos Amaterasu: hope as confidence in synchronicity?
Eos Amaterasu: ie, expression of well-being
Pila Mulligan: to me synchronicity is more a symptom than an end, Eos
aurel Miles: i agree
Pila Mulligan: yes, it can be a symptom of well-being
Eos Amaterasu: but maybe that gets back to aurel talking about reciprocity
aurel Miles: maybe
aurel Miles: in that case, maybe hope is just wanting to be seen
aurel Miles: wanting to be recognized -
Threedee Shepherd: I notice that we seem to be talking about a number of things that happen to be called one thing. For example, I hope s/he loves me, vs. I hope it doesn't rein tomorrow.
Pila Mulligan: wandering through wiki, I came upon this: 1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now abideth faith, hope, and love, even these three: but the chiefest of these is love".
Pila Mulligan: hope is a any faceted term it seems
Pila Mulligan: many*
Threedee Shepherd: Yes Pila, but the Hope of that verse refers to the hope of devine grace upon death.
Pila Mulligan: as in 'hope I don't have to be a cow' in Hinudism :)
Pila Mulligan: (that was a bad joke during the moent of silecne)
Pila Mulligan: 9my apologies:)
aurel Miles: so that goes back to hoping for intangibles
aurel Miles: or for a response
aurel Miles: because divine grace is not speakers
aurel Miles: you know?
aurel Miles: it's returned love
Pila Mulligan: the thing about the verse that I noted was how it places hpoe so high among the theological values of christianity, even if it is related to divine grace -- we have looked at it from many angles here and there it is up among the highest of vlaues
aurel Miles: true
Threedee Shepherd: but for the Greeks, a dangerous thing, as Pila noted.
aurel Miles: at christmas
aurel Miles: when i used to teach sunday school
aurel Miles: i let the children know the metaphor
aurel Miles: because i think theology is all about metaphors
aurel Miles: and most of the great religions share the same one at that time of year
aurel Miles: light in the darkness
aurel Miles: hope where there is no hope
aurel Miles: and that is an essential thing
aurel Miles: a holy thing
Pila Mulligan: refraining from despair
aurel Miles: sacred
aurel Miles: if you've ever read Victor Frankl's book
Eos Amaterasu: that's close to Being, isn't it?
aurel Miles: man's search for meaning
aurel Miles: yes
aurel Miles: in one sense it's all about hope
aurel Miles: but it's all about hope in the face of how illogical it is to hope
aurel Miles: hope that defies expectation
aurel Miles: hope that does not attach to a specific outcome
Eos Amaterasu: hope not dependent on logic, more primordial
aurel Miles: but rather to the idea of transcendence
aurel Miles nods
Pila Mulligan: or luck :)
aurel Miles: or faith
Pila Mulligan: wanting things to go well and smoothly persists even after a search for menaing loses steam, it seems
aurel Miles: i am not sure how yuo come to that conclusion
Pila Mulligan: except among masochists perhaps
Pila Mulligan: well, I'm so old that my search for menaing ended, but my wanting things to go well and smoothly continues :)
Eos Amaterasu: You mean the cliché existentialist still wants good coffee?
Pila Mulligan: :) kind of Eos
aurel Miles: i hope -
aurel Miles: hmm
Pila Mulligan: now please don't take the end of the search for meaing out of context, it is not a bad thing :)
Threedee Shepherd: Well, folks, I need to go attend to a bit of RL. Thanks for the conversation, and--may I sayI hope we all have a good evening :)
Pila Mulligan: thanks Threedee, same to you -- see you next time
Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!
aurel Miles: Bye 3d
aurel Miles: well - this has been fascinating as always
aurel Miles: and i will think about it for quite a while
aurel Miles: thank you for having me
Adelene Dawner: :)
Pila Mulligan: bye aurel
aurel Miles: i hope i will see you all soon!
Eos Amaterasu: Thank you!
Pila Mulligan: well, Eos, there you have it :)
Eos Amaterasu: Ah!
Pila Mulligan: another Play a sBeing chat session :)
Eos Amaterasu: Pretty good!
Eos Amaterasu: In the 90-second gaps, I n otice they're not always observed....
Pila Mulligan: yes, they help balance the conversation when they are
Adelene Dawner: Yep, it's voluntary, not all of us do the meditations at all.
Pila Mulligan: here is the web site, by the way: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Eos Amaterasu: What happens with the transcripts?
Pila Mulligan: they get p[osted there
Adelene Dawner: Some of our members can't make it as regularly as they want, and keep up by reading there, and it's also useful to have them to refer back to :)
Pila Mulligan: are you the guardian tonite Ade?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: each session there is a designated person -- guradian in the lingo -- to take the log an dpost it to the wiki
Pila Mulligan: this has been going on for a littel over a year now
Eos Amaterasu: A regular group?
Adelene Dawner: 28 times a week :)
Pila Mulligan: yep -- and this site has some related workshops -- http://kira.org/
Adelene Dawner: We meet every 6 hours.
Pila Mulligan: weekly instead of daily
Pila Mulligan: at kira's
Eos Amaterasu: Kira's cafe?
Pila Mulligan: or a session is held every six hours, any number of folks appear from timte to time
Pila Mulligan: yes
Eos Amaterasu: I took the balloon over earlier today
Pila Mulligan: there is a workshop there on dreams on tuesdays and one on buddhist ethics thrusdays that I like
Pila Mulligan: 2 pm SLT for both
Pila Mulligan: and more ...
Adelene Dawner yaaaawns... "I think it's time for me to head home, or I'm going to be sleeping here tonight."
Pila Mulligan: theyhave aclendar on the kira website
Pila Mulligan: :) sweet dreams Ade
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ 'night, Pila.
Eos Amaterasu: Time for me to check out too. Good night, all!
Pila Mulligan: I *hope* you sleep well
Adelene Dawner: hehehe
Pila Mulligan: bye Eos, nie to meet you
Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!
Pila Mulligan: aloha
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