2009.04.11 07:00 - bad habits and failure with Being seeing

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Adelene Dawner: Hi Sca :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ade:)
    Adelene Dawner: 'morning Pema :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Adelene, Schathach!
    Pema Pera: Another bright morning in SL!
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, but it was bright for me at 01:00, feels like afternoon:)
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    Adelene Dawner: 'morning Sophia, Adams :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams, Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Good morning all :) If it is morning for you
    Pema Pera: yes, that good old round Earth . . . .
    Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
    Pema Pera: I'm in California now, which is sooooo convenient: local time = SLT
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nice Pema
    Adelene Dawner: hehe :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: so you can never be late, no excuse:)
    Pema Pera: besides, the RL weather in California looks just like SL weather :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Adams
    Pema Pera: And hi Corvi!
    Adams Rubble: good morning everyone :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Corvi
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Corvi
    Adams Rubble: Hi Corvi :)


    Adams blog and his posting about love

    Pema Pera: I've enjoyed reading your blog, Adams
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: about "seeing is enough", your theme of the last week
    Adams Rubble: Did you see my post early this morning?
    Pema Pera: and today you wrote about love
    Pema Pera: yes
    Adams Rubble nods
    Pema Pera: and most definitely, love is included in "seeing"
    Pema Pera: perhaps you can say: real seeing is really enough, precisely because it inludes love
    Pema Pera: if not, it wouldn't be real seeing
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Pema Pera: Love does not need to be conquered, it's there already, to see
    Adams Rubble: I knew I had faulty wiring somewhere
    Pema Pera: :) Seeing is stopping to cover, seeing is allow to be naked
    Pema Pera: only love can give one the courage to dare to see (one's own sins/mistakes)
    SophiaSharon Larnia is listening
    Pema Pera: seeing and letting yourself be seen, both . . . .
    Pema Pera: (seen in general; be known, grokked, sensed)
    Pema Pera: and thank you, Adams, for working with that notion for a whole week! Was is hard?
    Pema Pera: *it
    Adams Rubble: well yes but it may have been partly due to the timing for me
    Adams Rubble: It made me see many things which I'd rather not see
    Adams Rubble: so I struggled for most of the week
    Adams Rubble: I learned how important that Love is
    Adams Rubble: without love things just start to fall apart so I thought I was doing everything wrong
    Adams Rubble: I couldn't understand why things were falling apart after all this time
    Adelene Dawner: One thing that I've kept in mind with that kind of thing is that whatever I've seen about myself, it was and would have been there whether I saw it or not... ignoring it doesn't make it go away, and seeing allows the good bits *and* the bad bits to be put to better use. :)
    Adams Rubble: but I needed to see some things in me which were hidden yet
    Pema Pera: yes, Adelene!!
    Adams Rubble: yes Adelene
    Adams Rubble: I don;t yet see how I can put it to use
    Adams Rubble: I'd rather jump up and down on top of it
    Adelene Dawner goes to find a reference :)
    Pema Pera: the "enough" in "seeing is enough" doesn't mean that anything else is excluded, but rather that seeing itself can be the key to open up / access / let blossom everything else, by giving permission
    Adams Rubble: Thanks for that clarification
    Pema Pera: seeing and allowing yourself to be seen, allowing yourself to be loved and yourself to love
    Adams Rubble: Hello Lia :)
    Lia Rikugun: sorry i am too late
    Pema Pera: it is so hard for us to love ourselves . . . . really love ourself, without pride or blame or narcissims, love ourselves for who we are
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Lia
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Lia:)
    Adams Rubble: No late here Lia :)
    Lia Rikugun: (forgot the time over painting my new appartment...)
    Pema Pera: welcome, Lia!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera picturing Lia with paint all over . . . .
    Lia Rikugun: over my hands yes
    Adelene Dawner grumbles. "Found my refernece, but I keep forgetting that it's written in a way that's hard to quote."
    Lia Rikugun: and my trousers a little
    Lia Rikugun: :)


    Fear, guilt, anger etc. as tools

    Adelene Dawner: "Fear, guilt, unworthiness, hurt feelings, and anger are, in fact, tools . Tools are neutral--they can be used either for us or against us. A knife can be used to heal or to hurt. A hammer can be used to build or to destroy. It is not the tool itself, but the way the tool is used that determines its benefit or detriment. The difficulty lies in a fundamental misperception of "limiting" emotions. The limitation is not in the emotions themselves, but in the way we've been taught to perceive these emotions. We've been programmed with certain attitudes about certain feelings, and in the attitudes lie the limitations, not in the feelings. "
    Adelene Dawner: ( http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/doit/d2a.htm )
    Pema Pera: nice quote, Adelene!
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Lia Rikugun: yes i like that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Pema Pera: and that's why seeing is enough -- if we see what we can do with those tools, we can use them correctly
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Pema Pera: Stim's ethics class on Thursday afternoons is about seeing too, effectively
    Pema Pera: learning to see how we make mistakes . . . . and then learning from those


    things we cannot change about ourselves, bad habits

    Adams Rubble: In my case it is not the moistakes so much as things that I have been taught that I feel are wrong but they are aprt of me and speak to me
    Lia Rikugun: :) i have the same impression
    Lia Rikugun: with me
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: after visiting different countries for example or talking to other people with other opinions this helps changing your behaviour as well
    Lia Rikugun: because you start questioning why you do things how you do them
    Pema Pera: yes, you see more . . . .
    Adams Rubble: But what do you do about these voices
    Adams Rubble: hey come out with hurt
    Pema Pera: can you give an example, Adams?
    Adams Rubble: they
    Adams Rubble: I'd rather not
    Adams Rubble: sorry
    Pema Pera: or give us a hint?
    Pema Pera: in which direction to look?
    Adams Rubble: things I have been taught
    Adams Rubble: things passed down to me
    Lia Rikugun: for me it is something about getting conscious about what you do
    Adams Rubble: attitudes
    Adams Rubble: ways of looking at things
    Lia Rikugun: when you see how other people do it differently
    Lia Rikugun: and try to understand why
    Adams Rubble: yes, Lia that helps
    Adams Rubble: It is not a matter of knowing they are worng
    Adelene Dawner: General rule of human behavior: If <person/>knew better, they would do better. That's important in dealing with others, and important in dealing with ourselves, too... the key to doing better is knowing better, and then it'll happen naturally. :)
    Adams Rubble: it is a matter that they persist
    Lia Rikugun: ah ok
    Adams Rubble: They come out in moments of weakness
    Pema Pera: and if you watch that tendency, hear those voices, Adams, what happens?
    Adelene Dawner hmms.
    Adams Rubble: or stress
    Adams Rubble: ah :)
    Adams Rubble: watching my voiuces :)
    Adelene Dawner wants to say something about 'knowing deeply enough', but listens.
    Adams Rubble: no I haven;t done that
    Pema Pera: seeing/watching is meant not only with eyes
    Pema Pera: "seeing" as in "I see" or "I get it"
    Pema Pera: "watch what you say" :-)
    Lia Rikugun: i have a bad attitude i cannot change
    Lia Rikugun: i am always fighting with my father ;)
    Lia Rikugun: and i cannot stop and he cannot either i guess
    Lia Rikugun: even though i know its wrong
    Lia Rikugun: and it could be done in a differrnt way
    Pema Pera: yes, Lia, we all have those habits of returning to a joint mistake . . .


    watch yourself fall in the trap, stop fighting the impulse to "be bad"

    Adelene Dawner: Another thing that might be useful? Shop fighting the impulse to 'be bad'. Doing that obscures the issue - makes it hard to see what's really at the root of the impulse.
    Pema Pera: . . . so we try to choose between falling in the trap and seeing it enough to get over it
    Pema Pera: but there is a third possibility: seeing it while still continuing to fall in the trap
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: i like the last one
    Adelene Dawner nods at Pema
    Pema Pera: and when we do the third a number of times, we just give up that silly repitition
    Pema Pera: as long as we oscillate between failure and success
    Pema Pera: then success is just too hard
    Adams Rubble nods
    Lia Rikugun: yes it like being an actor ina play
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nnodsnods
    Pema Pera: but oscillating between blind failure and seeing failure is better
    Pema Pera: yes, seeing failure makes us laugh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Pema Pera: and we just get tired of it :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brings more pain though
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does at first
    Pema Pera: yes, laughter and pain, indeed
    Adelene Dawner: In a short term sense, maybe... you'd be surprised how quickly that passes though, and how bad it isn't in the meantime :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: when i'm attached to th thing i'm failing at..and that i am failing.
    SophiaSharon Larnia nods
    Pema Pera: that's why a reminder every quarter of an hour can be a great help
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: then, i start caring less aobut the failing and more interested in the seeing.
    Pema Pera: to continue laughing at yourself . . . .
    Pema Pera: yes


    seeing helps to differentiate between true happiness and bandaids

    SophiaSharon Larnia: A friend told me yesterday that she felt it all comes down to what makes you happy, truely happy.... I'm not sure what this means for seeing, but it resonated... reminded me, despite my misgivings.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i am learning about my "failings"
    Pema Pera: seeing helps to differentiate between true happiness and bandaids
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you, yes
    Lia Rikugun: i think yes thats the challenge to know what makes youhappy
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: really happy
    Adams Rubble: Love
    Pema Pera: on so many levels . . . a single glas of wine can you make happy in a way that fits in a context, but perhaps five glasses of wine not -- it is all a matter of seeing and of seeing balance
    Pema Pera: and that's just a simple everyday example
    Lia Rikugun: (i am happy my new appartment is looking nice and nicer :))
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia grins
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)


    only learning from failures

    Pema Pera: Corvi, can you tell us what you are learning?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks..that what i thought of as failures are not entirely..that there is something to be learned there, too, about happiness.
    Pema Pera: yes, we can *only* learn from failures, I think!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and that...even happiness is sort of beside the point.
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Pema Pera: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: though its fun to stop there on the way.
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: there are so many forms of happiness . . . .
    Pema Pera: has any of you been playing with "letting Being see" ?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: in this case, i think i mean...sitting comfortably in my own skin.
    Pema Pera: that's very important, Corvi, we often forget . . .
    Adams Rubble: not lately Pema


    what is being exactly??

    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm still reaching for understanding what being is, it still feel seperate from my ego
    Pema Pera: yes, it is very hard to point out, Sophia
    Pema Pera: I think the best way to approach Being, is to let Being see, and to let Being give you a hint as to how and what and where
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is what my self is, I think
    Pema Pera: ultimately, yes, but that is not so easy to see . . . . . and very different from what we normally think we are
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I have very strong ego boundaries
    SophiaSharon Larnia: forwhat I thought were good reasons, now, not so much
    Pema Pera: we all need to start with boundaries for sure
    Pema Pera: and then we can watch them, see how we can slowly ease them
    Adelene Dawner: [7:41] Adelene Dawner is not going to say "it's everything except our egoes", but... [7:41] Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs...it's everything including our little egos? [7:42] Corvuscorva Nightfire: which have arisin despite their silliness. [7:42] Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles. [7:43] Adelene Dawner: kind of. What I meant is, it's everything but that little corner of the world we've defined as 'me'... though you're right, those little corners are part of it, too, to use a more accurate definition. The everything-but definition works better here though. :)
    Pema Pera: smile at them
    Pema Pera: :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi, QT!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Qt
    Pema Pera: Hi Qt!
    Qt Core: hi all
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello QT
    Lia Rikugun: hello qt
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs at herself for missing the bell twice!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Qt
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sorry for disturbing.


    "let Being see" while writing

    Pema Pera: how about trying a new exploration? We can all try to "let Being see", but not in silence, not as a separate movement, but while we are typing and reading and sitting here?
    Pema Pera: letting Being see us talking about Being
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh I would go amok im afraid to say lol
    Pema Pera: would that change the way we talk?
    Pema Pera: hehehe, why not?
    Pema Pera: we may even join you, Sophia!
    Pema Pera: but that's a very interesting point, what would make you feel that, you think?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i feel being i'intude' sometimes, the idea of being... I fear for my mental state
    Pema Pera: being seen is scary, you mean?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it intrude.. i meant the thought of 'being'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Pema Pera: (and let us try to let Being see, while we are talking!!!)
    Lia Rikugun: for me it was / is scary too
    Adelene Dawner: Sophia: http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/2037.html
    Pema Pera: can you tell us what is scary about it?
    Lia Rikugun: because somehow you question your idea of yourself more
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ty Adelene
    Adelene Dawner: np :)
    Lia Rikugun: up to the point where there is no "me"
    Lia Rikugun: haha then is gets scary
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i feel like a balloon, grounded by a string ...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I fear judgement, of myself, as if my being does not approve of what ive done with this life,
    Pema Pera: yes, I think to some extent we all do, Sophia . . . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i see it's entire picture, in one glance and its too much
    SophiaSharon Larnia: there is a path from here to there but it is so hard
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
    Adams Rubble: I wonder if Being really cares about all the stuff we are so worried about
    Adelene Dawner grins at Adams. :)
    Adams Rubble: All that is so unimportanrt on the larger scale of things
    Qt Core: or even about us
    Adams Rubble: It is the way we all are
    Adams Rubble: it is humanity
    Pema Pera: Being is not a person, so "caring" needs some thought as what that could possibly mean, or "not caring" for that matter . . . .
    Adams Rubble: well there is that too :)
    Pema Pera: Being is a resource
    Pema Pera: if we care to open for it
    Pema Pera: and stop hiding ourselves
    Adelene Dawner: hmmmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i think being is the One, as we are all pieces of the prism of the One... so no, in that sense 'that' doesn't care
    Adelene Dawner: I'm thinking about 'awareness'
    Adams Rubble peeks out from under the cushion
    Pema Pera: Being doesn't even have to care . . . .
    Pema Pera: in Being all is complete
    Scathach Rhiadra nods at Ade
    Adelene Dawner: As far as I can see it the only awareness of 'us' comes from us and beings similar to us (animals)... that's the method for being to see us.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i prefer to see it not as deosn't 'care' but 'accepts'
    Adelene Dawner: So, being seing us is the sum of that maybe?
    Adelene Dawner: That's a very sideways way of coming at it.
    Pema Pera: that is one way in, Adelene
    Pema Pera: there are many ways
    Pema Pera: in my own experience, I like to just sit with "letting Being see"
    Pema Pera: and then see what happens
    Pema Pera: each day something different
    Adelene Dawner: Not my usual one, just throwing it out there if someone else maybe finds it useful.
    Pema Pera: Being is so far beyond what we can fathom . . . .
    Pema Pera: yes, thank you!
    Pema Pera: coming back to how overwhelming it all can be, Sophia, to let Being see, we can be playful in our approach, do a kind of striptease for Being :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Pema Pera: waking up in the morning we can think: what shall we show Being today?
    Pema Pera: what hidden fear?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh thats such a great way to see it
    Pema Pera: what hidden resentment?
    Pema Pera: there is no rush
    Pema Pera: Being has all the time -- in fact all time
    Pema Pera: I'll have to get some breakfast -- in SLT now. I'll be back for my two guardian slots later today, at 1 pm and 7 pm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema
    Adams Rubble: bye Pema :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Pema..thanks.
    Lia Rikugun: byebye
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema, se you later
    Lia Rikugun: i need to leave too
    Adelene Dawner: bya Pem :)
    Pema Pera: very glad we could talk about these tricky topics!
    Lia Rikugun: happy holidays
    Adams Rubble: bye Lia :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: this was fun..thank you, too Adams for this conversation.
    Pema Pera: It helps me so much going over all this with all of you
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i need to go too...it is so great coming here, thank you all :))
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lia
    Adams Rubble: bye Sophia :)
    Pema Pera: it's one thing to struggle with it by yourself, so much more effective to share
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sophia
    Pema Pera: seeing different angles
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, bye all, Namasté
    Pema Pera: so many teachers we all have, every day, here :-)
    Adams Rubble: bye Scath :)
    Pema Pera: bye everybody!
    Adams Rubble: Shall we go somewhere?
    Adelene Dawner: sure :)
    Adelene Dawner: Have you seen ym place recently, Adams? I just remodeled.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i love the particles Adelene.
    Adams Rubble: I was there this week...not quiote myself :)
    Adams Rubble: quite
    Adams Rubble giggles
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles, too.
    Adelene Dawner: That's right. I'd forgotten. :)
    Adams Rubble: That would be nice :)
    Adams Rubble: can you send a tp?
    Adelene Dawner: sure :)
    Adams Rubble: bye Qt :)

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