2009.04.17 13:00 - Silence with Intention

The Guardian for this meeting was Solobill Laville. The comments are by Solo.

I only sat for a couple of moments before being joined by Wester and Wol.

Wester Kiranov: hi solo

Solobill Laville: Hello, Wester! :)
Wol Euler: hello wester, solo
Wester Kiranov: hi wol
Solobill Laville: Heya, Wol :)
Wol Euler: hello mick
Solobill Laville: As lame as this sounds...I need to bounce in and out this session...so sorry :(
Wester Kiranov: np solo
Wol Euler: sounds rather active :)

Solobill Laville: (I may be here in virtual body...but not in mind...)

Mick joins us.

Mickorod Renard: hiya Wol,Webster Sol
Wester Kiranov: hi mick
Solobill Laville: Hi, Mick! :)
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Solobill Laville: I was just saying how I will be a bit in and out today...apologies
Mickorod Renard: yes? why is that?
Mickorod Renard: nothing serious?
Solobill Laville: ...work...
Mickorod Renard: ohh,,ok thats understandable
Wol Euler: well, it happens to the best of us at times :)

Aurel join us. 

Wol Euler: hello aurel

aurel Miles: hello
Mickorod Renard: hi Aurel
Wester Kiranov: hi aurel
Solobill Laville: And I couldn't miss my session...job security ya know ;)
Wol Euler: :)
Solobill Laville: Hello, Aurel! :)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Wol Euler: (brb, something in my eye)
Wol Euler: back
Mickorod Renard: I have been walking the dog around some lovely english gardens today
aurel Miles: oh?
aurel Miles: where are you Mick?
Mickorod Renard: great to see the greenery come back
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: I am in the middle of uk
aurel Miles: ah
aurel Miles: my father lived in Yorkshire for years
Mickorod Renard: i went to Elvaston castle
aurel Miles: how lovely
Mickorod Renard: its a favorite of mine
Mickorod Renard: can anyone remember that film years ago,,with oliver reed and ,,,bates doin a naked fight in an old castle?
Wol Euler snorts
Mickorod Renard: sons and lovers or something
Wol Euler: I'm sure I'D remember that!
aurel Miles: no - i'm sure it was blotted out by the Borat naked fight
Wester Kiranov: i don't think i've seen it
aurel Miles: most things were...
Wol Euler laughs
Mickorod Renard: the fight was filmed there

Tarmel join us next. 

Wol Euler: morning tarmel!

Tarmel Udimo: morning all:)
aurel Miles: hi
Wester Kiranov: hi tarmel
Mickorod Renard: hi Tarmel
aurel Miles: morning? time zones here are pretty interesting
Mickorod Renard: yea,,it was sons and lovers ,,written by D H Laurence
Wol Euler: that old "round world" thing :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Wol Euler: well, in the apparent absence of our host Mr. Laville: Does anyone have a topic for this session?

Wester Kiranov: hi scath
Wol Euler: hello scath
Mickorod Renard: Hi Scath
Solobill Laville: Hey!
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: Hi Scath :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester, Wol, Tarmel, solo, Mick, Aurel:)
Scathach Rhiadra: got everyone?
aurel Miles: Hello!
Mickorod Renard: just found it,,the film was called women in love
Solobill Laville: I was just reading Storm's text there..maybe we should "make" or "engage" 90 seconds of silence instead of 'observing' it
Solobill Laville: seems quite passive in a way
Wol Euler: "indulge in"
Solobill Laville: that's good too
Wol Euler: it's an active verb in German, "I silented"; as though it took an effort.
Mickorod Renard: hi Sophie
Solobill Laville: hmm...yes silence with intention!

Sophia join us. 

sophia Placebo: hi mic , hi all

Wol Euler: hello sophia
Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
Solobill Laville: Hello, Sophia :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
Tarmel Udimo: hi Sophia
Tarmel Udimo: are you feeling we need to use the 90 ses differently Solo?
Solobill Laville: oh, dunno, really Tarmel
Solobill Laville: But I'm just thinking that observing silence is a bit different from my thoughts on it
Tarmel Udimo: ahhh
Solobill Laville: It is a free sim!
Tarmel Udimo: :)
Solobill Laville: Observing silence hahs benies as well
Solobill Laville: *has
Mickorod Renard: I may need to use it for meditating on my days sin,,after Stims class yesterday
Wester Kiranov: can you do that in 90 secs? ;)
Solobill Laville: What was the latest Stim class about?
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
Mickorod Renard: need several 90 secs I think
Scathach Rhiadra: was just talking about this at session last Saturday...
Solobill Laville: longer meditations?
Mickorod Renard: yea,,I missed that,,is geo doing it?
Scathach Rhiadra: I spent most of the session alone, so was already silent when the 90 seconds bell rang
Mickorod Renard: I will do my best to remember tommorow
Tarmel Udimo: so Stim asked you to meditate on Sin?
Solobill Laville: Gads
Mickorod Renard: not Sin as such,,but things like the reasons for un truth's
aurel Miles: lying - i was going to say, isn't a sin but it is in the 10 commandments so i guess it is
aurel Miles: right?
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: lying was the main issue I guess
aurel Miles: funny - i don't think of things that way
Tarmel Udimo: in Buddhism it's not a sin, but importnat not to do
Solobill Laville: Unless lying helps
aurel Miles: Judaism has a different take on sin
Mickorod Renard: helps towards the Sin?
Solobill Laville: /waits for the onslaught
aurel Miles: conservative judaism that is
Solobill Laville: In untruth (I guess just verbally) ever OK?
Wol Euler: sorry to disappoint you, Solo.
aurel Miles: a sin is something you do that shows you value yourself above others -
aurel Miles: disproportionately
Tarmel Udimo: ok
aurel Miles: when i heard that a sin is refusing to take moral responsibility for yourself
Solobill Laville: Firday afternoon -> Wol
aurel Miles: i stopped being late.
aurel Miles: cause that's a sin
sophia Placebo: i agree aurel
aurel Miles: but there's Sin
Mickorod Renard: yes
aurel Miles: and sin
Tarmel Udimo: never did like the word
Solobill Laville: Go on, Aurel
Solobill Laville: S vs. s

Wester excuses herself. 

Wester Kiranov: (slips away quietly - sorry)

Mickorod Renard: but i think more to the point at which we got to,,its more about looking at what causes us to lie at the moment,,like what weaknesses do we have
aurel Miles: Sin - i think
aurel Miles: has all that heavy christian guilt around it
aurel Miles: whereas sin - as i read it
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Tarmel Udimo: and others
aurel Miles: is just calling you to consider that you've declined to make a choice
aurel Miles: or take responsibility for yourself
Tarmel Udimo: taking responsibility for on'es actions
aurel Miles: and i can accept that i do that
Tarmel Udimo: is very importnat I think
aurel Miles: I am not BAD
aurel Miles: and Sin makes me feel irrevocably BAD
aurel Miles: but sin
aurel Miles: is soemthing i do
aurel Miles: that i need to consider
aurel Miles: part of the flow
aurel Miles: and foregivable
aurel Miles: part of learning
Mickorod Renard: well,,I think its a broad subject,,and maybe the class will put it in perspective
Solobill Laville nods
Solobill Laville: thanks, Aurel
aurel Miles: that's just my take - and your very welcome - thanks for letting me say it
Tarmel Udimo: well yes Mick and as to why we do 'sin' is I guess the oint of Stim's exercise
Tarmel Udimo: yes well put aurel

Arabella join us next. 

Tarmel Udimo: hi arabella

Mickorod Renard: yes Tarmel,,exactly
Mickorod Renard: hiya ara
Wol Euler: hello ara
sophia Placebo: hi arabella
Tarmel Udimo: it can get very sutble
Tarmel Udimo: I doubt if any of us are really bad people
Solobill Laville: Hi, Ara :)
Wol Euler: a lot of lying is about ego, I think, about saving face - either mine or yours, when I lie about how well you did something
arabella Ella tiptoes in ... hiya (softly)
sophia Placebo: like totally bad tarmel?
Tarmel Udimo: bad to meet are people who hurt other people knowingly
Tarmel Udimo: with intent
Mickorod Renard: and so that follows through
Mickorod Renard: that we should consider the repercussions of our actions
sophia Placebo: bad deeds then , how many here would say that they didnt do that not once in their life
arabella Ella: yes but i think we should distinguish between ppl with evil intent and others who act so as to protect others ... with compassion

Dakini join us. 

Wol Euler: hello dakini

Dakini Rhode: lol sorry Wol
Mickorod Renard: I think Sophie that it depends on how you measure your own sense of sin
Wol Euler: no worries
sophia Placebo: hi dakini
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Dakini:)
Mickorod Renard: hiya Dakini
Tarmel Udimo: hi
arabella Ella: @ sophia ... I would ask ... how many of us have done evil acts just for the sake of being evil or making others miserable?
aurel Miles: also - acting out of ignorance has to be in there somewhere
Dakini Rhode: hells all around
aurel Miles: Hi Dakini
Dakini Rhode: oops
Dakini Rhode: hellos
aurel Miles: cause we all need to learn
aurel Miles: and sometimes it is hard to learn
aurel Miles: i am a very slow learner - so i know that.
Solobill Laville: Hello, D :)
Tarmel Udimo: someone who keeps doing the same thing isn't seeing fully
Mickorod Renard: they say that ignorance is no defence
aurel Miles: yes they do - in human law
Wol Euler: legally perhaps not, morally - perhaps
aurel Miles: and that may be true legally
aurel Miles: exactly
arabella Ella: ignorance may not be a defence ... innocence may be
aurel Miles: morals and laws are not always the same thing
sophia Placebo: i dont know arabella , dont care really to know and that is the point , you cant know the intentions . so the badness refer to the deeds .
aurel Miles: and i don't think anybody is gifted with clarity of vision 100 per cent of the time
aurel Miles: i think if you meet someone who thinks they are
aurel Miles: then you are dealing with a blind person
Wol Euler: we do judge intentions though. If I run somebody down in my car and kill them, the consequence to me might be either time in jail or grief therapy
arabella Ella: i feel we cannot isolate the deeds from the context
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Wol Euler: depending wth the jury thinks my intention was
aurel Miles: We have sentencing circles in Canada now, to deal with crime and to factor in intention.
arabella Ella: yes people who are incapable of forming intentions are often legally exhonerated
aurel Miles: Restorative justice is not adversarial
sophia Placebo: right wol , some bad deeds have punshments or some legal aspects
Mickorod Renard: can remorse be seen as diferent than feelings of guilt?
Mickorod Renard: I think remorse is genuine
Solobill Laville: They are differnet things, yes, Mick
Solobill Laville: Guilt can be very selfish...Doh!
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,people feel guilt,,but not nesses. remorse
arabella Ella: Guilt may be selfish ... but often it is hard wired in our brains due to upbringing
sophia Placebo: but wol if a person kill some with preparing and planning or with overflow of his emotions and punished , after the punshment you shouldnt still consider him as bad but as person who had done a bad deed right?
Mickorod Renard: I recon he/she is still bad unless he / she has shown remorse
arabella Ella: but ... who are we to judge others?
arabella Ella: we could start by6 judging ourselves
sophia Placebo: would get inside his/her heart so you know if he just showing up or is it a true remorse?
Mickorod Renard: they say that its been proven that pscopaths get off early cos they can act better
Mickorod Renard: please spell pscopaths for me
Mickorod Renard: brain wont work
sophia Placebo: psychopath
Mickorod Renard: thanks
sophia Placebo: yw :)
Solobill Laville: hmmm...
Solobill Laville: Many threads here

Angel joins us. 

Solobill Laville: Hello, Angel :)

sophia Placebo: hi angel
Angel Jestyr: Hi!
Solobill Laville: it may be simpler to focus in the 'personal' aspects of this idea of sin/guilt
Dakini Rhode: hi A.
Mickorod Renard: hi Angel
Angel Jestyr: Hi Dakini!
Solobill Laville: Societal / law is pretty broad in a way :)
arabella Ella: yes i agree Solobill on the personal aspects
Solobill Laville: So...that was a conversation killer :)
Wol Euler: :)
sophia Placebo: sorry
aurel Miles: no no
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Solobill Laville: Not you, me Soph!
aurel Miles: it is just hard to
aurel Miles: well
aurel Miles: Have you heard about restorative jusitce?
aurel Miles: justice?
arabella Ella: perhaps we could ask ... why do some of us feel guilt for certain deeds while others do not?
aurel Miles: ok - never mind
arabella Ella: or why does guilt seem to lessen the more often an act is repeated?
Tarmel Udimo: (sorry folks must sneak away to Pheono)
Mickorod Renard: some only feel guilt if they are caught
Wol Euler: bye tarmel, take care
Tarmel Udimo: have a good rest of the session
Solobill Laville: bye tarm
Mickorod Renard: bye Tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra: yes me too, Namasté
aurel Miles: Bye Tarmel
arabella Ella: bye Tarmel
sophia Placebo: bye tramel
arabella Ella: bye Scath
Solobill Laville: bye scath
sophia Placebo: bye scath
Mickorod Renard: nameste scath
Wol Euler: bye scath, happy saturday
Solobill Laville: Aurel, only just now when you mentioned it
sophia Placebo: i think it is like smelling bad smell ara re guilt
Solobill Laville: *rest. just.
aurel Miles: Restorative justice was pioneered at Hollow Water
aurel Miles: in Manitoba
sophia Placebo: after a while there is desensetization to bad smell and to feelin of giult
aurel Miles: and it doesn't engage with ideas of guilt in the same way
aurel Miles: they had a huge sex abuse problem
aurel Miles: so they decided to use this method
aurel Miles: they bring offenders into a community circle
aurel Miles: with elders
arabella Ella: hiya Fef
aurel Miles: and with the peiople they hurt
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fef
Fefonz Quan: Hiya !
aurel Miles: and they have to confront the crime
aurel Miles: together
aurel Miles: and live with each other
Wol Euler: hello fefonz
sophia Placebo: hi fef
aurel Miles: in the community
aurel Miles: the whole community becomes responsible
aurel Miles: and they must all work it out together
Fefonz Quan: (on my way to pheno infact :))
aurel Miles: this sounds idealistic
Wol Euler: (with wet trousers)
aurel Miles: but their rate of offenses dropped
aurel Miles: from (this is shocking)
aurel Miles: 80 per cent of the male pop
Fefonz Quan: with the phenomenological appearance of wet rousers ;-)
aurel Miles: to 10
Dakini Rhode: that's amazing aurel
aurel Miles: within a year or two - now Hollow Water no longer has a sex abuse epidemic and they have served as a model for many other cvommunities dealing with other criminal problems
aurel Miles: who have had similarly good results
aurel Miles: there is a book on the subject
Dakini Rhode: that reminds me of a woman i know who works with pedophiles
sophia Placebo: amazing aurel
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
aurel Miles: called Dancing with A ghost
aurel Miles: by Rupert Ross
Fefonz Quan: (move on quitely)
aurel Miles: i thought so too
aurel Miles: i was privleged to visit there
Mickorod Renard: yea,,I gotta go too
aurel Miles: and i have an eagle feather from them
aurel Miles: right
aurel Miles: talk talk talk
aurel Miles: sorry to go on.
arabella Ella: bye everyone gotta go ... nite
aurel Miles: i will bounce
Mickorod Renard: bye
Wol Euler: bye fef, ara, mick
Dakini Rhode: useful talk
sophia Placebo: bye mic ara
aurel Miles: take care everyone
Solobill Laville: bye, mic, ara, ayrel
sophia Placebo: bye aurel
Solobill Laville: *aurel
sophia Placebo: i think i will move too to pheno
Solobill Laville: ok, bye, Soph
Solobill Laville: :)
Wol Euler: 'night sophie, take care
Solobill Laville: Wol, you too?
Wol Euler: nope, non-pheno.
Solobill Laville: me too!
Solobill Laville: I have enough groups / meetings :)
Dakini Rhode: i need to get back to work actually
Solobill Laville: Nice to see you here, D :)
Solobill Laville: Nice to meet you Angel
Wol Euler: awwww, bye dakini, take care
aurel Miles: bye all!
Dakini Rhode: byeee
Angel Jestyr: bye
Wol Euler: well, we seem to be breaking up.
Angel Jestyr: likewise :)
Solobill Laville: Bye
Wol Euler: bye angel
Angel Jestyr: bye all
Solobill Laville: bye