2009.04.17 13:00 - Silence with Intention

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Solobill Laville. The comments are by Solo.

    I only sat for a couple of moments before being joined by Wester and Wol.

    Wester Kiranov: hi solo

    Solobill Laville: Hello, Wester! :)
    Wol Euler: hello wester, solo
    Wester Kiranov: hi wol
    Solobill Laville: Heya, Wol :)
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    Solobill Laville: As lame as this sounds...I need to bounce in and out this session...so sorry :(
    Wester Kiranov: np solo
    Wol Euler: sounds rather active :)

    Solobill Laville: (I may be here in virtual body...but not in mind...)

    Mick joins us.

    Mickorod Renard: hiya Wol,Webster Sol
    Wester Kiranov: hi mick
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Mick! :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Solobill Laville: I was just saying how I will be a bit in and out today...apologies
    Mickorod Renard: yes? why is that?
    Mickorod Renard: nothing serious?
    Solobill Laville: ...work...
    Mickorod Renard: ohh,,ok thats understandable
    Wol Euler: well, it happens to the best of us at times :)

    Aurel join us. 

    Wol Euler: hello aurel

    aurel Miles: hello
    Mickorod Renard: hi Aurel
    Wester Kiranov: hi aurel
    Solobill Laville: And I couldn't miss my session...job security ya know ;)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Aurel! :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Wol Euler: (brb, something in my eye)
    Wol Euler: back
    Mickorod Renard: I have been walking the dog around some lovely english gardens today
    aurel Miles: oh?
    aurel Miles: where are you Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: great to see the greenery come back
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: I am in the middle of uk
    aurel Miles: ah
    aurel Miles: my father lived in Yorkshire for years
    Mickorod Renard: i went to Elvaston castle
    aurel Miles: how lovely
    Mickorod Renard: its a favorite of mine
    Mickorod Renard: can anyone remember that film years ago,,with oliver reed and ,,,bates doin a naked fight in an old castle?
    Wol Euler snorts
    Mickorod Renard: sons and lovers or something
    Wol Euler: I'm sure I'D remember that!
    aurel Miles: no - i'm sure it was blotted out by the Borat naked fight
    Wester Kiranov: i don't think i've seen it
    aurel Miles: most things were...
    Wol Euler laughs
    Mickorod Renard: the fight was filmed there

    Tarmel join us next. 

    Wol Euler: morning tarmel!

    Tarmel Udimo: morning all:)
    aurel Miles: hi
    Wester Kiranov: hi tarmel
    Mickorod Renard: hi Tarmel
    aurel Miles: morning? time zones here are pretty interesting
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,it was sons and lovers ,,written by D H Laurence
    Wol Euler: that old "round world" thing :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Wol Euler: well, in the apparent absence of our host Mr. Laville: Does anyone have a topic for this session?

    Scath join us.
    Wester Kiranov: hi scath
    Wol Euler: hello scath
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Scath
    Solobill Laville: Hey!
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: Hi Scath :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester, Wol, Tarmel, solo, Mick, Aurel:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: got everyone?
    aurel Miles: Hello!
    Mickorod Renard: just found it,,the film was called women in love
    Solobill Laville: I was just reading Storm's text there..maybe we should "make" or "engage" 90 seconds of silence instead of 'observing' it
    Solobill Laville: seems quite passive in a way
    Wol Euler: "indulge in"
    Solobill Laville: that's good too
    Wol Euler: it's an active verb in German, "I silented"; as though it took an effort.
    Mickorod Renard: hi Sophie
    Solobill Laville: hmm...yes silence with intention!

    Sophia join us. 

    sophia Placebo: hi mic , hi all

    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Sophia :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
    Tarmel Udimo: hi Sophia
    Tarmel Udimo: are you feeling we need to use the 90 ses differently Solo?
    Solobill Laville: oh, dunno, really Tarmel
    Solobill Laville: But I'm just thinking that observing silence is a bit different from my thoughts on it
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh
    Solobill Laville: It is a free sim!
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Solobill Laville: Observing silence hahs benies as well
    Solobill Laville: *has
    Mickorod Renard: I may need to use it for meditating on my days sin,,after Stims class yesterday
    Wester Kiranov: can you do that in 90 secs? ;)
    Solobill Laville: What was the latest Stim class about?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Mickorod Renard: need several 90 secs I think
    Scathach Rhiadra: was just talking about this at session last Saturday...
    Solobill Laville: longer meditations?
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,I missed that,,is geo doing it?
    Scathach Rhiadra: I spent most of the session alone, so was already silent when the 90 seconds bell rang
    Mickorod Renard: I will do my best to remember tommorow
    Tarmel Udimo: so Stim asked you to meditate on Sin?
    Solobill Laville: Gads
    Mickorod Renard: not Sin as such,,but things like the reasons for un truth's
    aurel Miles: lying - i was going to say, isn't a sin but it is in the 10 commandments so i guess it is
    aurel Miles: right?
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: lying was the main issue I guess
    aurel Miles: funny - i don't think of things that way
    Tarmel Udimo: in Buddhism it's not a sin, but importnat not to do
    Solobill Laville: Unless lying helps
    aurel Miles: Judaism has a different take on sin
    Mickorod Renard: helps towards the Sin?
    Solobill Laville: /waits for the onslaught
    aurel Miles: conservative judaism that is
    Solobill Laville: In untruth (I guess just verbally) ever OK?
    Wol Euler: sorry to disappoint you, Solo.
    aurel Miles: a sin is something you do that shows you value yourself above others -
    aurel Miles: disproportionately
    Tarmel Udimo: ok
    aurel Miles: when i heard that a sin is refusing to take moral responsibility for yourself
    Solobill Laville: Firday afternoon -> Wol
    aurel Miles: i stopped being late.
    aurel Miles: cause that's a sin
    sophia Placebo: i agree aurel
    aurel Miles: but there's Sin
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    aurel Miles: and sin
    Tarmel Udimo: never did like the word
    Solobill Laville: Go on, Aurel
    Solobill Laville: S vs. s

    Wester excuses herself. 

    Wester Kiranov: (slips away quietly - sorry)

    Mickorod Renard: but i think more to the point at which we got to,,its more about looking at what causes us to lie at the moment,,like what weaknesses do we have
    aurel Miles: Sin - i think
    aurel Miles: has all that heavy christian guilt around it
    aurel Miles: whereas sin - as i read it
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Tarmel Udimo: and others
    aurel Miles: is just calling you to consider that you've declined to make a choice
    aurel Miles: or take responsibility for yourself
    Tarmel Udimo: taking responsibility for on'es actions
    aurel Miles: and i can accept that i do that
    Tarmel Udimo: is very importnat I think
    aurel Miles: I am not BAD
    aurel Miles: and Sin makes me feel irrevocably BAD
    aurel Miles: but sin
    aurel Miles: is soemthing i do
    aurel Miles: that i need to consider
    aurel Miles: part of the flow
    aurel Miles: and foregivable
    aurel Miles: part of learning
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I think its a broad subject,,and maybe the class will put it in perspective
    Solobill Laville nods
    Solobill Laville: thanks, Aurel
    aurel Miles: that's just my take - and your very welcome - thanks for letting me say it
    Tarmel Udimo: well yes Mick and as to why we do 'sin' is I guess the oint of Stim's exercise
    Tarmel Udimo: yes well put aurel

    Arabella join us next. 

    Tarmel Udimo: hi arabella

    Mickorod Renard: yes Tarmel,,exactly
    Mickorod Renard: hiya ara
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    sophia Placebo: hi arabella
    Tarmel Udimo: it can get very sutble
    Tarmel Udimo: I doubt if any of us are really bad people
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Ara :)
    Wol Euler: a lot of lying is about ego, I think, about saving face - either mine or yours, when I lie about how well you did something
    arabella Ella tiptoes in ... hiya (softly)
    sophia Placebo: like totally bad tarmel?
    Tarmel Udimo: bad to meet are people who hurt other people knowingly
    Tarmel Udimo: with intent
    Mickorod Renard: and so that follows through
    Mickorod Renard: that we should consider the repercussions of our actions
    sophia Placebo: bad deeds then , how many here would say that they didnt do that not once in their life
    arabella Ella: yes but i think we should distinguish between ppl with evil intent and others who act so as to protect others ... with compassion

    Dakini join us. 

    Wol Euler: hello dakini

    Dakini Rhode: lol sorry Wol
    Mickorod Renard: I think Sophie that it depends on how you measure your own sense of sin
    Wol Euler: no worries
    sophia Placebo: hi dakini
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Dakini:)
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Dakini
    Tarmel Udimo: hi
    arabella Ella: @ sophia ... I would ask ... how many of us have done evil acts just for the sake of being evil or making others miserable?
    aurel Miles: also - acting out of ignorance has to be in there somewhere
    Dakini Rhode: hells all around
    aurel Miles: Hi Dakini
    Dakini Rhode: oops
    Dakini Rhode: hellos
    aurel Miles: cause we all need to learn
    aurel Miles: and sometimes it is hard to learn
    aurel Miles: i am a very slow learner - so i know that.
    Solobill Laville: Hello, D :)
    Tarmel Udimo: someone who keeps doing the same thing isn't seeing fully
    Mickorod Renard: they say that ignorance is no defence
    aurel Miles: yes they do - in human law
    Wol Euler: legally perhaps not, morally - perhaps
    aurel Miles: and that may be true legally
    aurel Miles: exactly
    arabella Ella: ignorance may not be a defence ... innocence may be
    aurel Miles: morals and laws are not always the same thing
    sophia Placebo: i dont know arabella , dont care really to know and that is the point , you cant know the intentions . so the badness refer to the deeds .
    aurel Miles: and i don't think anybody is gifted with clarity of vision 100 per cent of the time
    aurel Miles: i think if you meet someone who thinks they are
    aurel Miles: then you are dealing with a blind person
    Wol Euler: we do judge intentions though. If I run somebody down in my car and kill them, the consequence to me might be either time in jail or grief therapy
    arabella Ella: i feel we cannot isolate the deeds from the context
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Wol Euler: depending wth the jury thinks my intention was
    aurel Miles: We have sentencing circles in Canada now, to deal with crime and to factor in intention.
    arabella Ella: yes people who are incapable of forming intentions are often legally exhonerated
    aurel Miles: Restorative justice is not adversarial
    sophia Placebo: right wol , some bad deeds have punshments or some legal aspects
    Mickorod Renard: can remorse be seen as diferent than feelings of guilt?
    Mickorod Renard: I think remorse is genuine
    Solobill Laville: They are differnet things, yes, Mick
    Solobill Laville: Guilt can be very selfish...Doh!
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,people feel guilt,,but not nesses. remorse
    arabella Ella: Guilt may be selfish ... but often it is hard wired in our brains due to upbringing
    sophia Placebo: but wol if a person kill some with preparing and planning or with overflow of his emotions and punished , after the punshment you shouldnt still consider him as bad but as person who had done a bad deed right?
    Mickorod Renard: I recon he/she is still bad unless he / she has shown remorse
    arabella Ella: but ... who are we to judge others?
    arabella Ella: we could start by6 judging ourselves
    sophia Placebo: would get inside his/her heart so you know if he just showing up or is it a true remorse?
    Mickorod Renard: they say that its been proven that pscopaths get off early cos they can act better
    Mickorod Renard: please spell pscopaths for me
    Mickorod Renard: brain wont work
    sophia Placebo: psychopath
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    sophia Placebo: yw :)
    Solobill Laville: hmmm...
    Solobill Laville: Many threads here

    Angel joins us. 

    Solobill Laville: Hello, Angel :)

    sophia Placebo: hi angel
    Angel Jestyr: Hi!
    Solobill Laville: it may be simpler to focus in the 'personal' aspects of this idea of sin/guilt
    Dakini Rhode: hi A.
    Mickorod Renard: hi Angel
    Angel Jestyr: Hi Dakini!
    Solobill Laville: Societal / law is pretty broad in a way :)
    arabella Ella: yes i agree Solobill on the personal aspects
    Solobill Laville: So...that was a conversation killer :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    sophia Placebo: sorry
    aurel Miles: no no
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Solobill Laville: Not you, me Soph!
    aurel Miles: it is just hard to
    aurel Miles: well
    aurel Miles: Have you heard about restorative jusitce?
    aurel Miles: justice?
    arabella Ella: perhaps we could ask ... why do some of us feel guilt for certain deeds while others do not?
    aurel Miles: ok - never mind
    arabella Ella: or why does guilt seem to lessen the more often an act is repeated?
    Tarmel Udimo: (sorry folks must sneak away to Pheono)
    Mickorod Renard: some only feel guilt if they are caught
    Wol Euler: bye tarmel, take care
    Tarmel Udimo: have a good rest of the session
    Solobill Laville: bye tarm
    Mickorod Renard: bye Tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes me too, Namasté
    aurel Miles: Bye Tarmel
    arabella Ella: bye Tarmel
    sophia Placebo: bye tramel
    arabella Ella: bye Scath
    Solobill Laville: bye scath
    sophia Placebo: bye scath
    Mickorod Renard: nameste scath
    Wol Euler: bye scath, happy saturday
    Solobill Laville: Aurel, only just now when you mentioned it
    sophia Placebo: i think it is like smelling bad smell ara re guilt
    Solobill Laville: *rest. just.
    aurel Miles: Restorative justice was pioneered at Hollow Water
    aurel Miles: in Manitoba
    sophia Placebo: after a while there is desensetization to bad smell and to feelin of giult
    aurel Miles: and it doesn't engage with ideas of guilt in the same way
    aurel Miles: they had a huge sex abuse problem
    aurel Miles: so they decided to use this method
    aurel Miles: they bring offenders into a community circle
    aurel Miles: with elders
    arabella Ella: hiya Fef
    aurel Miles: and with the peiople they hurt
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fef
    Fefonz Quan: Hiya !
    aurel Miles: and they have to confront the crime
    aurel Miles: together
    aurel Miles: and live with each other
    Wol Euler: hello fefonz
    sophia Placebo: hi fef
    aurel Miles: in the community
    aurel Miles: the whole community becomes responsible
    aurel Miles: and they must all work it out together
    Fefonz Quan: (on my way to pheno infact :))
    aurel Miles: this sounds idealistic
    Wol Euler: (with wet trousers)
    aurel Miles: but their rate of offenses dropped
    aurel Miles: from (this is shocking)
    aurel Miles: 80 per cent of the male pop
    Fefonz Quan: with the phenomenological appearance of wet rousers ;-)
    aurel Miles: to 10
    Dakini Rhode: that's amazing aurel
    aurel Miles: within a year or two - now Hollow Water no longer has a sex abuse epidemic and they have served as a model for many other cvommunities dealing with other criminal problems
    aurel Miles: who have had similarly good results
    aurel Miles: there is a book on the subject
    Dakini Rhode: that reminds me of a woman i know who works with pedophiles
    sophia Placebo: amazing aurel
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
    aurel Miles: called Dancing with A ghost
    aurel Miles: by Rupert Ross
    Fefonz Quan: (move on quitely)
    aurel Miles: i thought so too
    aurel Miles: i was privleged to visit there
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,I gotta go too
    aurel Miles: and i have an eagle feather from them
    aurel Miles: right
    aurel Miles: talk talk talk
    aurel Miles: sorry to go on.
    arabella Ella: bye everyone gotta go ... nite
    aurel Miles: i will bounce
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Wol Euler: bye fef, ara, mick
    Dakini Rhode: useful talk
    sophia Placebo: bye mic ara
    aurel Miles: take care everyone
    Solobill Laville: bye, mic, ara, ayrel
    sophia Placebo: bye aurel
    Solobill Laville: *aurel
    sophia Placebo: i think i will move too to pheno
    Solobill Laville: ok, bye, Soph
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Wol Euler: 'night sophie, take care
    Solobill Laville: Wol, you too?
    Wol Euler: nope, non-pheno.
    Solobill Laville: me too!
    Solobill Laville: I have enough groups / meetings :)
    Dakini Rhode: i need to get back to work actually
    Solobill Laville: Nice to see you here, D :)
    Solobill Laville: Nice to meet you Angel
    Wol Euler: awwww, bye dakini, take care
    aurel Miles: bye all!
    Dakini Rhode: byeee
    Angel Jestyr: bye
    Wol Euler: well, we seem to be breaking up.
    Angel Jestyr: likewise :)
    Solobill Laville: Bye
    Wol Euler: bye angel
    Angel Jestyr: bye all
    Solobill Laville: bye
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