2009.04.20 07:00 - Perspectives of Imagination

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

This turned out to be quite a long session. We began by comparing/contrasting views of imagination and illusion, then began to touch on implications of working with problems using added perspectives.

Eliza Madrigal: Morning Adams :))
Adams Rubble: Good Morning Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: The mornings have been quiet, so I wasn't sure if I might be sitting by my lonesome today :) Good to see you.
Adams Rubble: Yes, one never knows who may show up. hehe
Eliza Madrigal: hehe, yes.
Fael Illyar: Hi Adams, Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fael, Long time no see :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Fael :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Susi :)
Eliza Madrigal: Morning Susi :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Susi :)
Susi Alcott: sry Fael
Susi Alcott: Hi Adams
Fael Illyar: Well, I chose to sit here :)
Susi Alcott: Morning Eliza
Susi Alcott: rehi Fael
Eliza Madrigal: This morning I was reading over the illusion of illusion emails, and finding that one day you can read/approach something and it seems so complicated...
Eliza Madrigal: but the very next time, so open. :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: yes, it takes time for the ideas to connect in your mind so you can "get" them
Eliza Madrigal: Like a door you walk up to and knock, but one day no one is home or they're still sleeping. Next day they might beam at you "HEY!" haha
Adams Rubble: Then some days it all seems complicated again :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I suppose that invisible processing is what is going on.
Eliza Madrigal: hahahah, and yes, Adams!
Eliza Madrigal: When we were talking about dreams yesterday, that seems like just another level of invisible processing...like we're only aware of the top sliver.
Fael Illyar: for me, things feel complicated when I'm mixing imagination with reality :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes. And we do that often Fael. Imagination is also a tool so...hard to section out.
Fael Illyar: always good to be aware which parts are imagination :)
Eliza Madrigal: How do you approach that Fael?
Fael Illyar: I don't know :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fael Illyar: I just do
Eliza Madrigal: Does imagination have a different texture for you?
Fael Illyar: Hi SophiaSharon :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
Eliza Madrigal: SophiaSharon, Good morning WisdomPeace :)
Fael Illyar: some of it does but ... not all of it
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi all :)
Fael Illyar: "new" imagination tends to have different texture but older doesn't.
Eliza Madrigal: It seems that without imagination we couldn't function very well...seems very much intrinsic to living day to day.
Eliza Madrigal: Fael, that sounds interesting if you can say more?
Fael Illyar: but ... I'm not sure if texture is the right way to describe it...
Fael Illyar: wb Susi :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hm. I would find it interesting to see how one could categorize.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Susi :)
Adams Rubble: wb Susi :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Susi Alcott: ty
Susi Alcott: Hi SophiaSharon
Fael Illyar: I don't think I categorize imagination and others really... it's pretty blurry sometimes :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: (is sleepy but enjoys coming here so much)
Adams Rubble: Imagination can help us look at a problem from a different direction
Susi Alcott: ->_/!\_
Susi Alcott: ->Sophia
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and from many simultaneously it seems
Adams Rubble: yes, that too Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: And this email...seeing our problems as illusory...as imaginations?
Adams Rubble: Hello Faenik :)
Adams Rubble: Hmmm

Adams added what I think is a rather clarifying sentence here, and we continued to grapple with views on imagination as it affects helping ourselves and others. Susi's focus as a healer places particular importance on revealing 'untrue' and harmful imaginations. 

 
Adams Rubble: I kind of think they are two different things Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I think that's what I'm working to clarify...projection/imagination
Adams Rubble: imagination can be a focused way of looking at illusion
Eliza Madrigal: When used as an intentional tool then
Adams Rubble: yes
Fael Illyar: like I said, it's a very blurry territory :)
Adams Rubble: it also can just be playing :)
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: alternatively, you could also try asking yourself, what else is there? in addition to imagination.
Eliza Madrigal: But they can also take over....take one into loops of worry and antiquated story telling. So the infusion of Being seems to make the difference in the projections.
Susi Alcott: well; would the question 'why' be good to take place
Adams Rubble: yes Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, what else is there and why.
Susi Alcott: for example if one looks at ones problem as imagined, would be good to ask 'why'
Susi Alcott: as if they are illisions; then they should open to take so and forget
Fael Illyar: If I had to try to put things to words, we have imagination and then we have a sense truthfulness attached to the imagination and call other imaginations true and others not true and others yet undecided and ... well you get the picture.
Eliza Madrigal: :) Layers of authenticity maybe?
Susi Alcott: as the matter in fact sure is, that in case problems are there, it's big difference to get rid of them if they are true or not
Susi Alcott: anyway all thoughts do effect to the thinker at least...
Fael Illyar: oh and, the sense of truthfulness is also imagination :)
Susi Alcott: truly ?
Eliza Madrigal: So, as a practice, one sits with the "problem" and begins to see it differently...at different angles, allowing Being to infuse, and see where it might begin to unwravel ..where there might be more space than previously thought?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi genesis :)
Adams Rubble: Good morning Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: Morning
Susi Alcott: think I could't been able to help anybody the way I've been able, in case the truthfulness wouldn't be genuin truth....
SophiaSharon Larnia: good morning :)
Susi Alcott: Hi genesis
Fael Illyar: the one we attach in our mind to ideas is imagination.
Fael Illyar: I didn't say imagination can't be true.
Susi Alcott: ah..sry..as that word to me means the same like illusion
Susi Alcott: that it's not true
Eliza Madrigal: Genesis, we were talking about imagination and truth :)
Susi Alcott: that imagined and illusions are such abstract, that dont effect but to the thinker
Eliza Madrigal: It seems a spectrum that people see differently...
Eliza Madrigal: Imagination seems to me that actual facility...the actual projector.
genesis Zhangsun: okay thanks
Eliza Madrigal: the hands of the mind, even.
Susi Alcott: maybe my way ---having no imagination as I use to say---of thinking cannot understand those words enough
Susi Alcott: hm
Eliza Madrigal: When you are working with people Susi, you imagine what might help them don't you?
Eliza Madrigal: You feel empathy enough to see from their angle?
Susi Alcott: a my way of 'thinking' is to look and observe...try to know enough what's there the truth...
Susi Alcott: but sure my way is to seek the reasons to the problems
Susi Alcott: as there are so many problems that are illusion
Susi Alcott: so; then they are good to see as imagined; not true
Susi Alcott: and the problem is gone
Susi Alcott: as so many things I ---as the healer---have noitced to be such
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, so your perspective is of uncovering the illusion with someone and then it poofs :)
Susi Alcott: that imagined thoughts has created the illnesses too
Susi Alcott: ah yes
Fael Illyar: Hello Yuri :
Eliza Madrigal: You need to be able to see from their viewpoint and feel empathy to do that I'd imagine...to understand where they are stressed/stuck.
Susi Alcott: so; there is not much difference to my point of view, if we use the word illusion or imagination
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yuri
Susi Alcott: yes
Susi Alcott: but
Eliza Madrigal: I'm captivated by this idea of dealing with ourselves as an illusion dealing with illusion. That was your thought Adams?
Adams Rubble: No Eliza
Fael Illyar: the word imagine, here, is not part of the language you speak with, normally, Susi.
Susi Alcott: well...believing that all who sees somebody to have probs cuz of illusions of imagined things, = imo not true
Susi Alcott: there comes the sadness for that
Susi Alcott: and will to help
Fael Illyar: by which I mean, it doesn't quite mean what you take it to mean.
Adams Rubble: I am talking about looking at problems from different angles
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Susi Alcott: and when ever the prob is not true, it's good to look as an illusion which it then certainly is....
Adams Rubble: The word "imagination" is being interpreted differently among us

Yes, interpreting differently seemed a theme, as is often the case when individuals are working to apply what they are discovering to their unique daily lives. 

Genesis arrives and brings up "considering vs. obsessing" about the illusion.

 Eliza Madrigal: varying perspectives. I think sometimes we can feel more flexible if we see something, even ourselves in a way, as illusory...maybe allow more space in the view?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes.....very differently :)
Susi Alcott: ah
Susi Alcott: like the saying that butterfly feel themselves very light cuz they take themselves to be light
Eliza Madrigal: yes, that's a nice image :)
Susi Alcott: so; even nobody can know it's truthfulness, it's good image to try to look at oneself
Susi Alcott: and many probs can be resolved by that
Susi Alcott: then' there been such problems that one has created by imagined bad things
genesis Zhangsun: I like what you said Eliza about allowing more space in out view by considering that it may be illusory
genesis Zhangsun: *our
Susi Alcott: of oneself sure
genesis Zhangsun: considering v. obsessing about the illusion seems to be part of the illusion of illusion email Pema sent out
Susi Alcott: not ever ment to say that illusions or imagined thigs are bad
Susi Alcott: but meaning that if they create problems
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all take care :))
Adams Rubble: bye Sophia
Susi Alcott: then it---imo---is must to look at them as iluusions
Fael Illyar: See you later SophiaSharon :)
genesis Zhangsun: bye Sophia
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sophia..quick today :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes Gen, we're only aware of a small part of our thinking or 'self" at any given moment it seems...so it is like "backing up" into that wider view that incorporates other understandings
Susi Alcott: as it truly is not always easy to see own thoughts if they are illusions of truthfull
Susi Alcott: so; that is why I dont connect truth to those words
Fael Illyar: Hello Mikle :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mikle :) Have you been here before? You are welcome to take a seat with us
Susi Alcott: Hi Mikle
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Mikle
Eliza Madrigal: like possible "the understanding of Being"
Eliza Madrigal: *possibly
Eliza Madrigal: Being does see only our little slice
Eliza Madrigal: *does not
genesis Zhangsun: yes Eliza thats right backing into Being and not concluding one way or another as to whether the "illusion" we spotted is truly an illusion
genesis Zhangsun: using it as a tool to open to wider perspective but not getting too bound up by the tool
Adams Rubble: yes, we need different tools for different illusions
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: yes?
genesis Zhangsun: would you expand on that Adams?
Adams Rubble: We have illusions which cause us pain
Eliza Madrigal: Those that we get stuck in
Adams Rubble: Sometimes they are difficult to see
Adams Rubble: yes, we get stuck in them
Adams Rubble: and we try different ways of looking at them
Susi Alcott: so; that's already the 'message' that the thought there may be illusion
Adams Rubble: we have an arsenal of tools :)
Susi Alcott: not fact, but maybe
Adams Rubble: Being seeing in one of them
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Adams Rubble: appreciation is another
Adams Rubble: Ancestor seeing now has worked one time for me
Adams Rubble: I wouldn;t want to get stuck on that
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps those two are more similar than we think
genesis Zhangsun: maybe one tool?
Adams Rubble: yes, but I have found them to work at different times
Susi Alcott: can you Fael tell me the word Ancestor ?
genesis Zhangsun: ah I see Adams
Adams Rubble: Sometimes I am stuck until I find the right tool
Fael Illyar: (Ancestor = Esi-isä)
Susi Alcott: thank you Fael
Adams Rubble: But I agree Gen that it all comes down to seeing
genesis Zhangsun: but what about the idea that the illusion that you need tools, that you are stuck Adams is an illusion
Susi Alcott: so ancestor seeing works when they have known the truth, but not when there thinking has not been based on the truth
Susi Alcott: or the truth is different today
Adams Rubble: ancestor seeing works when there is one particular ancestor speaking to one who can not be quieted any other way :)
Eliza Madrigal: What I'm seeing in this, is that imagination is a wonderful tool when used mindfully and lovingly...like a house whose doors should never be locked....letting all sorts of perspectives in
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Eliza Madrigal: and each perspective can give light and allow more circulation :)
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: I agree that first one must use tools to attack the "problem" to see different angles but to truly for seeing to be enough you have to let go of the problem entirely to not get caught in the "illusion of an illusion" as Pema says
genesis Zhangsun: thats a nice image Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, and when we get back to that place of not getting caught.... Love.
Susi Alcott: thinking so often myself the problem that one is hungry and there is no food to eat
Eliza Madrigal: Love coming in through every view
Adams Rubble: love is the healer
genesis Zhangsun: Hence the paradox: struggling to get out of the illusion tends to strengthen the illusion, making it seemingly more real in some sense -- yet not struggling at all, waiting for reality to show itself, or pretending that we already see the truth, none of that works . . . What to do?
Susi Alcott: even then, if that problem cannot be resolved
genesis Zhangsun: this is from pema's email
Susi Alcott: yet...not very long
genesis Zhangsun: I think it is a quite a nice summary
Eliza Madrigal: yes, agree.
Susi Alcott: well; to find the truth would be my answer to Pema's question
Eliza Madrigal: That diference between pretending and seeing from perspective is significant I think
Fael Illyar: Susi: Pema is talking about how to find it.
genesis Zhangsun: yes how so Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: It isn't pretending to allow Being in....
Susi Alcott: ah yes; part of the text may give completely wrong view
Eliza Madrigal: that's 'true'
Eliza Madrigal: That's *more* substantive
genesis Zhangsun: so it isn't pretending so what is it?
Eliza Madrigal: Pretending is what we do when we want to allow
Eliza Madrigal: but aren't quite there yet...
Eliza Madrigal: surrenduring to the idea of surrender
Eliza Madrigal: *surrendering
genesis Zhangsun: thats a nice way to put it Eliza :)
genesis Zhangsun: or you could say playing too playing as if allowing
genesis Zhangsun: which is not quite as contrived as pretending yet not as closed as being sure you know the truth
genesis Zhangsun: that you have full perspective
Eliza Madrigal: And that's all we can often do...and it is touching it certainly...much better than trying to escape
Eliza Madrigal: Absolutely, Genesis
Mikle Ghost: how to go to an another world?
Eliza Madrigal: Mikle, I didn't see you still here....
Eliza Madrigal: Are you looking for something in particular in SL?
genesis Zhangsun: we're all asking ourselves that question Mikle :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Susi Alcott: the answer is depended on what other world you mean :)
genesis Zhangsun: we're all finding that we should just stay in this one
Adams Rubble: :)
Mikle Ghost: i just want to learn how can to go to an another world
Mikle Ghost: ohh
Susi Alcott: in SL you mean ?
Eliza Madrigal: Let me give you a card about us. We record our conversations, you should know. :)
Susi Alcott: one way is to open the map, and 'teleport'
Adams Rubble: I must go. bye all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: oh that was quick by Adams
Mikle Ghost: can you tell me a world when can i build or only in my zone can do that?
Mikle Ghost: when i can
Mikle Ghost: sry
Mikle Ghost: hm?
Susi Alcott: you need to buy our own land
Fael Illyar: there are public sandboxes you can use for that
Eliza Madrigal: A sandbox to practice in Mikle? Just type in sandbox in search
Mikle Ghost: ok i know
genesis Zhangsun: I must be off too
Mikle Ghost: thx guys
Eliza Madrigal: Bye genesis
genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone
Fael Illyar: See you later Gen :)
Eliza Madrigal: You're welcome Mikle, come back anytime
Susi Alcott: bye Gen

Susi, Fael, and I talked a little more about 'ancestor seeing', and the subject of perfectionism came up.

Eliza Madrigal: Susi, Do you think you understand 'ancestor seeing' in the way Adams was talking about it now?
Susi Alcott: dont know
Eliza Madrigal: A widening view for Adams, has been to allow ancestors in...in a way...
Eliza Madrigal: as a connecting point in order to grasp at and unwravel tight ropes
Eliza Madrigal: For all of us we have different ways of allowing Being to affect those deep patterns
Susi Alcott: that I know
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Susi Alcott: but I have also seen both ; resolving and not resolving things by that
Susi Alcott: depends
Susi Alcott: as all do
Susi Alcott: from so many things
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I think that was what genesis was saying...that tools can be great as long as we are distracted by them...
Eliza Madrigal: as long as we don't fall in love with the reflection
Susi Alcott: yes
Susi Alcott: or make anything to be god
Eliza Madrigal: Right. But as we're untangling things, it can be freeing to connect on different levels and areas we never allowed before
Susi Alcott: ...not even love...before we truly can know it to be love...
Fael Illyar: it might be more understandable to people in general if you say to not make anything the absolute truth.
Susi Alcott: true
Moon Fargis: hiya ^^/
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Moon :))
Fael Illyar: Hi Moon :)
Susi Alcott: but as there is the truth to all things to compare
Fael Illyar: no absolute truth to convey in words or thoughts.
Susi Alcott: who finds it and how; that' s the question to m
Susi Alcott: Hi moon
Eliza Madrigal nods to Fael...not absolute. Some can hold this work longer in perspective than others I think
Susi Alcott: hm
Eliza Madrigal: And we have to be gentle with ourselves :)
Susi Alcott: maybe I understood also Faels words
Susi Alcott: in case you mean that there is not such truth that 'covers' all; I agree
Susi Alcott: and that's much of problems in human world cuz many people do seek such
Fael Illyar: it's the same thing as saying "there's nothing you can say is good or bad regardless of the circumstances"
Fael Illyar: umm, same idea
Eliza Madrigal: Hm...waiting for absolutes before doing anything you mean, Susi?
Fael Illyar: I think Susi is just referring to human tendency to search for an absolute truth.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah
Susi Alcott: well; some people does that too...sadly....
Susi Alcott: yes Fael
Eliza Madrigal: We are always doing something....always imperfectly
Fael Illyar: that's one common case of chasing an illusion.
Fael Illyar: that search of absolute truth
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes I think I understand....idealism which ends up discouraging
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Susi Alcott: your words are perfect to tell what I ment
Eliza Madrigal: spiritual people can be perfectionistic too...not exempt :)
Eliza Madrigal: I feel like that often " I *SHOULD* understand ____"
Fael Illyar: I'd like to say that there are no perfectionists. Only people with the illusion that they are :)
Eliza Madrigal: So...I don't. Big deal. I'll come back at it another way. :)
Eliza Madrigal nods to Fael
Eliza Madrigal: Perfectionism has been a particular challenge in my life...seeing an image and wanting to fit into it...ick
Eliza Madrigal: Often felt like I was doing it out of love for someone else...but nah, that's not love :)
Susi Alcott: sry I need to go
Susi Alcott: have nice time
Eliza Madrigal: Bye susi. have a lovely day
Fael Illyar: See you later Susi :)
Moon Fargis: bye susi ^^
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Moon Fargis: well also wanted to see who is still here..^^ need to go too ..getting some work done
Moon Fargis: see you later ^^/
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Moon Good to see you :)
Eliza Madrigal: Moon looks a bit like my son today. haha
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: Yes, he looks like that sometimes :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

What Fael didn't realize with her next comment, is that I had stopped for espresso and a blueberry croissant this morning and therefore was quite inexhaustable. :) We stayed for another hour talking about taking risks, dealing with illusions in the forms of problems, and working to relate to one another.  

Fael Illyar: Well, seems the topics ran out as well :)
Eliza Madrigal: Just moved my perspective to see Faenik...almost blends in with you when you haev dark hair :)
Fael Illyar: Yep :)
Eliza Madrigal: Topics never run out! :)))
Fael Illyar: well, yes, you can always find a topic if you realy want to :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm still thinking about imagination...synthesizing the varying perspectives of what it is and how to use it...
Eliza Madrigal: how it applies to Play as Being, and to our individual journeys and adventures
Fael Illyar: imagination is the most important part of our mind :)
Eliza Madrigal: And noticing also that the idea of truth, is fuzzy for me. Aside from the sense of Truth Light Love Way.
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, Fael I'd agree with that.
Eliza Madrigal: People have used the word truth to cause so much damage
Fael Illyar: Yes, truth is something that is quite difficult to put into words :)
Fael Illyar: especially if the words should be understood by anyone
Eliza Madrigal: yes...why it seems to me it all comes back to the connection which is beyond words.... if someone can access a certain *place* ...
Eliza Madrigal: then the pages seem to line up better :)
Eliza Madrigal: then truth is truth is truth, maybe.
Fael Illyar: words, at the same time, both make communication easier and much more difficult.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, absolutely they can!
Fael Illyar: and both at once too :)
Fael Illyar: especially when you understand words differently.
Fael Illyar: like, Susi seems to take words imagination, illusion and false to be synonyms.
Eliza Madrigal: Well, part of the adventure. I learn so much from hearing the way those of you with different first languages hear certain terms.
Fael Illyar: where I don't see a connection between imagination and true/false at all.
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, which is very helpful. Sometimes one can feel another is taking "issue" with something, and it isn't that...they *truly* want to understand..whch is loving.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I think most of us hear imagination in a positive light
Eliza Madrigal: or as a positive light...a "must have"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fael Illyar: Susi has a tendency to concentrate on it's dangers.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, maybe due to dealing wiht others' pain?
Fael Illyar: Yes, probably so.
Eliza Madrigal: I've dealt with people I just wanted to shake and say "WAKE UP" because I wanted to relieve their self-induced suffering. I've felt like that with myself A LOT.
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: They are convinced "___ is out to get me..." and you want them to see through it. I see Susi's concern.
Fael Illyar: Yes, I understand the concern.
Eliza Madrigal: : ) And seeing from both angles at once is a kind of illumination
Fael Illyar: Just sometimes a bit distracting to have the conversation derailed by that.
Eliza Madrigal: That illumination can be multiplied if we learn to
Eliza Madrigal: I think that's where Adams was coming from...it can be difficult to allow all those perspectives in...ancestors, etc.
Fael Illyar: yes, allow the perspectives and realize that all of them have their place.
Eliza Madrigal: But fascinating and illuminating...much like getting to sit here and hear others.
Fael Illyar: Yes, you learn a lot by listening :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, each one matters the same. Some have been factoring in whether you listen and acknowledge them or not...and beginning to hear/accept is a breakthrough.
Fael Illyar: but also necessary to try things out in practise to truly learn
Eliza Madrigal nods. You seem very playful in that way.
Fael Illyar: ?
Fael Illyar: me? listen? acknowledge?
Eliza Madrigal: flexible...for instance using SL in creative ways
Eliza Madrigal: You add your clarity
Eliza Madrigal: Sure, it is illusion...but what we are doing in it more substantive
Fael Illyar: if I have nothing to add or ask, I tend to stay silent :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm working on that! Hahah From today's log you can see I have a ways to go
Fael Illyar: Well, someone always needs to speak too, otherwise there's no conversation :)
Eliza Madrigal: This is the only place I talk about these things, so by the time I get here I'm often bursting :)))
Eliza Madrigal: Well, I do talk with my children also.
Fael Illyar: I don't really talk elsewhere either :)
Fael Illyar: well, aside from Hikari meetings every now and then
Fael Illyar: but somehow I end up being more silent there
Eliza Madrigal: yes...I meant more the context of SL.
Fael Illyar: Aah :)
Fael Illyar: I have more than just this context in SL :)
Eliza Madrigal: In RL I'm quite demure, but here as Eliza I seem very outgoing
Fael Illyar: Yes, true for me too :)
Fael Illyar: physicalities off the way and I'm in my element :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Funny, that. Those are voices we are hearing because of this context...but no less real than the other..no less true :)
Fael Illyar: voices?
Eliza Madrigal: Aspects of 'personality' if you will
Fael Illyar: aah, they're not silent in RL either, you're just ignoring them more.
Eliza Madrigal smiles, yep.
Fael Illyar: in SL, there's the illusion that you have less to risk by going out and letting them free roam.
Fael Illyar: well, in RL, the illusion of the risk is far greater.
Fael Illyar: in SL it tends to be about right or a bit too low.
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm..that's an interesting perspective on that...
Eliza Madrigal: risk level being a tone of sorts.
Fael Illyar: it's something we imagine. Risk :)
Eliza Madrigal: :D YES
Fael Illyar: it has no real existence. But it is useful :)
Fael Illyar: if it is in tune with realiy.
Fael Illyar: reality
Eliza Madrigal: yes, quite useful when playing...
Eliza Madrigal: finding the edges...even if to move them
Fael Illyar: edges?
Eliza Madrigal: In life we have boundaries...and in SL also...and those are often just what is agreed upon by those you're with..
Fael Illyar: yes, in SL, you have more freedom to set your own boundaries.
Fael Illyar: in RL, there are so many people to consider when setting the boundaries that we go overboard with them
Eliza Madrigal: so I was thinking that we often learn that way...risk a little here, there...get comfortable with that. We can only do that because of a sense of illusoryness..that it will all be *okay* ultimately :)
Eliza Madrigal: absolutely
Fael Illyar: to make sure we don't break other people's boundaries
Eliza Madrigal nods. great point
Eliza Madrigal: that's being compassionate :)
Eliza Madrigal: Faenik, I like wells, too. haha
Fael Illyar: can be that too... but it often is just fear. That's what often makes us go overboard with the boundaries.
Fael Illyar: and well, that's why we have societies where "nothing" is allowed.
Eliza Madrigal: Yes....about control. About making someone else responsible for one's own lack of control sometimes.
Eliza Madrigal: fear
Fael Illyar: Yes, that' th gist of it
Fael Illyar: brb
Eliza Madrigal: me too...getting coffee
Eliza Madrigal: k
Fael Illyar: back
Eliza Madrigal: Reading the beginning of this conversation, it occurs to me that part of what was going on, is dealing with problems in too serious a manner sometimes....
Eliza Madrigal: that sometimes a problem is a good thing..or at least something which can lead to something else which is better
Eliza Madrigal: problems can be gifts
Fael Illyar: yes, being afraid of a problem often leads to overshooting with the fix and replacing the problem with the opposite problem
Eliza Madrigal: Yes! So easy to miss that. I know I did until just now...wasn't really thinking about a problem as anything other than something to make disappear
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: A riddle is a type of problem
Fael Illyar: problems are there so we'd learn.
Fael Illyar: many problems (the ones Susi calls illusions) are entirely our own creation.
Eliza Madrigal: :) Yes
Fael Illyar: like, I could decide one day that red cats must not exist and spend the rest of my life agonizing that they exist.
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha...do they? haha
Fael Illyar: and plotting ways to make them disappear
Fael Illyar: I don't know actually :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes...it could be your particular fixation
Eliza Madrigal: and rule your life
Fael Illyar: especially funny if they don't :)
Eliza Madrigal: crowd out other opportunities and ideas...because nothing else fit
Eliza Madrigal: YES, haha
Fael Illyar: then you'd have a problem that really is entirely in your imagination :)
Eliza Madrigal: I read this article...Wired magazine...about a lady who has an extraordinary memory...
Eliza Madrigal: but it is about herself...she goes over and over everything that has happened to her since childhood...saves things...trapped.
Fael Illyar: a problem that could be solved by either accepting that red cats are allowed to exist or realizing that you're imagining their existence in the first place.
Eliza Madrigal: yes....and maybe welcoming that the red cats aren't there to harm you...might make your life more enjoyable..
Fael Illyar: Yep :)
Eliza Madrigal: and then you not only welcome red cats, but all the people who love red cats
Fael Illyar: try replacing red cats with your favourite pet peeve :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, can work on the peeve level
Fael Illyar: many problems people have are similar to this one.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, we get stuck in loops about who we are, who other people are..easy to do
Fael Illyar: Yes, the "not good enough" is a model example of this
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes
Fael Illyar: for people for whom it's a serious problem, it's usually circular in a way that they can never be "good enough" in their minds.
Eliza Madrigal: The collective can take on that as well...
Eliza Madrigal: Just try and say to soemone that you "trust" that the next doors will open...they'll say "Well have you ___?" "And have you __?"
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, noon here. I have to be back online at 2 so should go.
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later :)
Fael Illyar: it was nice to talk :)
Eliza Madrigal: So nice to get to sit with you. It hs been a long while since I've gotten to!
Eliza Madrigal: See you soon.
Fael Illyar waves.

For the log, the article mentioned is this one: http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazine/17-04/ff_perfectmemory?currentPage=all