2009.04.20 13:00 - Karma, neh?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    {Somehow we ended up discussing Karma. :)}

    Pila Mulligan: hi Stim and aurel
    aurel Miles: Hi Everybody
    Stim Morane: Hi Pila, aurel, Mick, Scathach
    Pila Mulligan: Hi Mik, Scathach, QT and Wol
    Qt Core: hi all
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya,,how are you all?
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Pila, aurel, mick, wol and QT:)
    Mickorod Renard: hi Eos
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
    Wol Euler: hello eos
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Pila & all
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Gaya
    Mickorod Renard: the benefit of sitting here is that i can see everyone arriving
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya
    Wol Euler: hello gaya
    Qt Core: hi Gaya
    Pila Mulligan: and you are in the northerly position Mick, for SL at least
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Mickorod Renard: pure accident
    Mickorod Renard: how did the dreams/time go yesterday?
    Wol Euler: fascinating!
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Tarmel
    aurel Miles: hello Tarmel
    Mickorod Renard: I am so sad I missed it
    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel and Gaya
    Wol Euler: hello tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tarmel :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Tarmel
    aurel Miles: Hello Gaya
    Wol Euler: mick, it will be continued next session
    Tarmel Udimo: HI all:)
    Mickorod Renard: great,,and I can read the log
    Mickorod Renard: I dream i may find time
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wol Euler grins
    Pila Mulligan: eventually
    Mickorod Renard: do we have a theme for tonite?
    Pila Mulligan: aye
    Mickorod Renard: I mean now
    Mickorod Renard: aye? that sounds like my local language
    Pila Mulligan: isn't this Stim's way of knowing session
    Pila Mulligan: or Stima nd
    Pila Mulligan: pema's dialogue?
    Stim Morane: Well, I have no theme to suggest. But perhaps you do.
    Pila Mulligan: karma :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Karma, neh?
    aurel Miles: neh?
    Eos Amaterasu: They used to say that all the time in the book Shogun
    aurel Miles: oh
    aurel Miles: i have never heard it before
    aurel Miles: what does it mean?
    Gaya Ethaniel: [means 'right?' 'isn't it so?' in Japanese...]
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes
    aurel Miles: thank you
    Eos Amaterasu: Or eh, as they say in CAnada
    aurel Miles: we use eh for lots of things in Canada
    Qt Core: (it is use in Piedmont dialect as an esclamation )
    Eos Amaterasu: Do you want to say more about Karma, Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: well, I was hoping Stim would start
    aurel Miles: but it's mostly ironic these days
    Stim Morane: I was hoping you would
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pila Mulligan: get the wheel turning, so to speak
    Pila Mulligan: karma seems to me to be a thread of expereince that relects the most profound significance of how or why things happens
    Stim Morane: do you think Karma is a PaB topic?
    Pila Mulligan: probably not
    Stim Morane: I'm not objecting, just asking.
    Mickorod Renard: I always thought Karma was like being at peace with yourself,,but it isnt is it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I want to ask how 'karma' is relevant today... is it?
    Tarmel Udimo: We have spoken about Karma many times in Pab:)
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Eos Amaterasu: In Being, stuff keeps happening...
    Eos Amaterasu: that's karma, from one way of looking it
    Eos Amaterasu: Question is, is karma suspended in Being?
    Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Stim Morane: Yes, in the strict sense of a very high take on reality.
    Stim Morane: But at that level, there are no things, no beings, no action in the ordinary sense
    Stim Morane: karma just = "action"
    Stim Morane: and action has consequences, which are defined in terms of situations.
    Stim Morane: These situations tend to provoke more action, of related kinds, etc etc.
    Stim Morane: that's the basic idea
    Mickorod Renard: I sometimes feel that life is predestined,,but i guess whichever way it is, you can make your passage through it well or not so well by your actions?
    Stim Morane: this is why I mentioned "situations"
    Stim Morane: The idea is not that actions lead to more actions of related kinds, directly.
    Stim Morane: Rather, it's that actions set up situations, in which you are free but "likely" to act in ways related to how the situation would ordinarily be taken.
    Stim Morane: You are free, but exist in situations that have a "charge" one way or another.
    aurel Miles: people who seem to know more about these things than i do often urge me not to act in response to another person's action but to let Karma take care of itself. And I have noticed that following that advice seems to make things a bit better, a bit more real - allows me to see more clearly. What does that say about Karma?
    Stim Morane: It's consistent with the idea that you shouldn't let situations push your buttons.
    Eos Amaterasu: Or that stuff happening is not what's problematic, but pushing stuff further
    Eos Amaterasu: which re-creates karma
    Stim Morane: On the other hand, we do need to break the chain of our own karma, so in that sense there's an emphasis placed on not just letter that karma keep recreating itself
    aurel Miles: here's my question though - is choosing not to engage with what I perceive as negative or button pushing possibly being judgemental about the quality of the other person's action?
    Stim Morane: what do you think?
    aurel Miles: would it be better to engage in a non-judgmental way?
    aurel Miles: sometimes i think it is better to engage
    Stim Morane: it would be better to engage, or not, based on insight.
    aurel Miles: in a positive way - no mattrer what
    Eos Amaterasu: Mabye if you're "just open", you are engaged
    aurel Miles: but it feels risky and naked an difficult to do that
    aurel Miles: being just open and silent can be a safe way to hide
    aurel Miles: for me, i mean
    Gaya Ethaniel: Breaking the chain, could you say a bit more about this please Stim?
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe being open and soft means that you get affected, and so respond, but more spontaneously
    Mickorod Renard: breaking the chain of ones own karma, I guess you mean breaking what may be neegative?
    Stim Morane: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: not breaking so much as not re-creating
    Stim Morane: but even breaking the chain of the positive makes some sense too.
    Stim Morane: I.e., going beyond "negative" or "positive"
    Eos Amaterasu: the gap is the chop
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,so do do that one has to have some judgement?
    Mickorod Renard: or mearly reactive to direction?
    Stim Morane: one has to see what is not "action" in the ordinary sense. Usually "being" means "existing" which > "acting"
    Eos Amaterasu: I think if the openness/being gap is vulnerable, then a more authentic place is touched
    Eos Amaterasu: from which response can be more accurate automatically
    Gaya Ethaniel: Existance is an 'action'? Did I read that right?
    Mickorod Renard: not sure I understand this bit: Eos Amaterasu: I think if the openness/being gap is vulnerable, then a more authentic place is touched
    Stim Morane: existence as opposed to "Being"
    Tarmel Udimo: yes my Q. too gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: >.< What's the difference between 'being' and 'existence'?
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Qt Core: sadly i have to go, bye all
    Pila Mulligan: bye Qt
    Eos Amaterasu: Mickorod, if being is not covered up by recurrent stuff (karmically driven) if it's suspension, then there's less armor, flak
    Wol Euler: bye qt
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye QT
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Qt.
    aurel Miles: bye Qt
    Stim Morane: This is not going to be easy to explain ... Oh, By QT
    Stim Morane: bye
    Tarmel Udimo: Bye QT
    Mickorod Renard: bye qt
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry Stim :(
    Eos Amaterasu: So whoever whatever your reall are or are is-ing is vulnerable
    Stim Morane: the basic idea is that what you are most truly is beyond "existence or non-existence". Contemplative practice can reveal that.
    Eos Amaterasu: Is touchable because you're not so defensive
    Stim Morane: This in turn can then be the basis for more authentic living
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    Stim Morane: This = "Being"
    Mickorod Renard: is this why so many people put up a facade?
    Eos Amaterasu: facade, face, from fear, or karmically driven agenda
    Gaya Ethaniel: So... when a situation presents itself, first 'get in touch' with 'what I am truly'... rather than 'acting', ie pauses?
    Mickorod Renard: all those?
    Stim Morane: sounds good
    Eos Amaterasu: letting go lets you pick up on energy: sweet paradox
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... I see how 'karma' fits :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, Eos, Gaya
    Pila Mulligan: it seems to me, at a simple observation level, that actions tend to obtain favorable and adverse responses (or affinity and alienation), and the resulting accumulation supports or obstructs certain subsequent actions (this is not offerred as a definition of karma, however :)
    Stim Morane: it's related, Pila
    Mickorod Renard: so its wise to be observant for adverse actions,,and to take action
    Mickorod Renard: to choose another direction
    Eos Amaterasu: In an open space the actions become more obvious
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    aurel Miles: can someone cite a concrete example, this is getting too abstract for my little mind.
    aurel Miles: ??
    Eos Amaterasu: in the 90 seconds the birds keep chirping
    Mickorod Renard: are you relating 'Being ' as an open space?
    Eos Amaterasu: (yes Mickorod) I would see the birds chirping as karma cointinuing
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,makes sense,,thanks
    Eos Amaterasu: but if I'm mnot buzzing with thoughts I hear the birds better
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,get rid of noise,,feel the space
    Mickorod Renard: noise as in inconsequestion thoughts
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry Stim just need a clarification did you equate existence and Being as one (for me to understand the last few thoughts from you)
    Stim Morane: give me a second ...
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Tarmel Udimo: its been a little difficult following 2 thought processes:)
    Stim Morane: Well, I'm not having much luck here, pasting text into the text chat box. So I'll just say everyone "exists" but a person's self-understanding could be beyond "existence"
    Stim Morane: So she would also "act" in a way that is beyond action
    Stim Morane: ... even though a camera might capture her as "acting"
    Stim Morane: in that case, there is no karma
    Stim Morane: does this make any sense?
    Pila Mulligan: action to obtain nonaction?
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Wol Euler: our old friend Wu Wei again
    Stim Morane: what looks like action is not action in the karmic sense, in this hypothetical case
    Stim Morane: Yes, it's one form of wu wei, exactly
    Stim Morane: truly natural action may be beyond action in the karmic sense.
    aurel Miles: Hello Tim
    Stim Morane: a simple act of generosity could be conniving (hoping to cash in), or kind in the sense of positive action, or beyond either. Is that a sufficiently concrete example?
    Tim Deschanel: hello Aurel
    Gaya Ethaniel: Could you give us some examples of 'camera' Stim?
    Stim Morane: Gaya, to a camera pointed at you, your "act" of generosity always looks the same, even though it could really be any one of the three cases I mentioned.
    aurel Miles: actually - i don't agree
    Stim Morane: Please say more, aurel
    Gaya Ethaniel: So... the act of generosity wouldn't feel as such if it's 'beyond actions'?
    aurel Miles: the camera's view of you
    aurel Miles: is determined by the mind and the eye of the person behind the camera
    aurel Miles: and also by the person printing the image
    Stim Morane: Yes, well admittedly my example was very crude
    aurel Miles: and also by the person looking
    aurel Miles: i think it was interesting
    Stim Morane: So your point is well-taken, aurel
    aurel Miles: because i dn't believe an objective view is possible
    aurel Miles: not under any circumstance
    aurel Miles: and so i wonder if i can navigate karma
    aurel Miles: effectively
    aurel Miles: knowing that -
    aurel Miles: i mean, does knowing that help?
    aurel Miles: or hinder me?
    aurel Miles: i think about that aklot
    aurel Miles: a lot even
    Stim Morane: I was just trying to say that how something looks from the outside doesn't encompass what is intended and understood by the person who is beyond ordinary action but performing an action as externally defined.
    Mickorod Renard: I think that is why it is important to understand the deeper meaning of ethics,,or morality
    Stim Morane: As for your questions, aurel, these are very interesting. I wonder if we can do them justice
    aurel Miles: yes but Stim - how can you tell what you are seeing or what you are responding to?
    aurel Miles: that's what i am asking
    aurel Miles: and that's why i asked for a concrete example
    aurel Miles: from anyone
    Stim Morane: well, we can at least see more than we would if we would "blinded by greed' for instance
    Stim Morane: we can improve in ways that relate to what I'm describing.
    Stim Morane: Perhaps I won't push the extreme case of true insight beyond limitation here
    Stim Morane: Do you at least agree that we can make some (perhaps less than complete") progress towards aptness?
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles and nods. "I hope so."
    arabella Ella nods
    aurel Miles: me? - i am not sure i understand well enough
    Stim Morane: contemplative practice is not based on idealism, but honest assessment
    aurel Miles: that's what i have been saying
    Stim Morane: Yes
    aurel Miles: and "at least"
    Stim Morane: well, I admitted at the outset this might be a hard topic.
    aurel Miles: i can't relate to that at all -
    Stim Morane: :)
    aurel Miles: no that's not what i mean
    Stim Morane: ?
    kova Tigerfish: kaje?
    aurel Miles: agreed not being blinded by greed or lust or fear or anyhting like that
    aurel Miles: might lead to more clarity but there is still the issue of how to judge the initial action
    aurel Miles: and how to guage response
    aurel Miles: and i question whether it is possible to know the motivation that inspres an action
    aurel Miles: and so i consider my responses to be inevitably flawed
    aurel Miles: and wonder how to move beyoind that
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, even our own motivations are hard to catch
    Stim Morane: great comments and questions. I hope someone can answer.
    Stim Morane: But the basic idea of "karma" as it was refined a long time ago by the historical Buddha, was based on the importance of seeing our own intentions, and taking responsibility for them.
    Stim Morane: That much we can surely do.
    Wol Euler: hello fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: (hi all)
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fefonz
    aurel Miles: with practice - maybe
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello fefonz
    arabella Ella: Hiya Fef
    Stim Morane: Yes, with a lot of practice. I will have to duck out at this point ... I'm off to someplace cool (too hot here).
    arabella Ella: taking responsibility for our own actions - a very important aspect i feel - since so many ppl tend to point fingers at others
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: Thanks for the interesting observations, everyone!
    Wol Euler: bye stim, take care.
    Stim Morane: Bye!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Stim.
    arabella Ella: bye Stim ty
    aurel Miles: bye stim
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim
    aurel Miles: thanks
    Tarmel Udimo: bye stim
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Stim
    Fefonz Quan: is it just me that saw stim as a white clloud of light?
    Tarmel Udimo: I'm off to Kira, so I will love you and leave you all
    Tarmel Udimo: have a good one
    Wol Euler: bye Tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel
    aurel Miles: me too
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Tarme; :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Tarmel
    Wol Euler: (what#s on there tonight?)
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Tarmel, Aurel
    Wol Euler: bye aurel, take care
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Aurel
    aurel Miles: bye - thanks!
    Mickorod Renard: bye aurel
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, Science at Play!
    Wol Euler: aaah, prospero
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day.
    Fefonz Quan: guess i missed an intruiging discussion...
    Wol Euler: bye gaya
    Wol Euler: it had its moments :)
    Wol Euler: I must go too, I've been eating aspirin since midday and am about to give up.
    Wol Euler: goodnight all.
    arabella Ella: bye Wol
    arabella Ella: How are you Fef?
    Scathach Rhiadra: night Wol:)
    Fefonz Quan: night Wol :)
    Mickorod Renard: nite Wol
    Fefonz Quan: i'm good, thanks Ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namasté
    Fefonz Quan: Pema was keeping me in-RL-world :)
    Mickorod Renard: nite Scath
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scathach
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Scath :)
    arabella Ella: it was very interesting Fef but not always easy to understand
    arabella Ella: but Stim is very knowledgeable
    Fefonz Quan: that's my favorites :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Time for me to discorporate as well, bye everyone, thnx!
    Mickorod Renard: thanks eos
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
    arabella Ella: bye Eos and thanks for your clarifications
    Fefonz Quan: is there a way to get the chat log, or should i have to wait for the post in the site?
    arabella Ella: I'm afraid i have no clue about how that all works
    arabella Ella: altho i guess Mick and I could cut and paste what we have on a notecard if you wish
    Fefonz Quan: who is the GoC?
    Pila Mulligan: I ca give yuo a copy now Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: that can be great Pilla
    arabella Ella: hey Pila did not realise u r still here too ... cool
    Pila Mulligan: trying to paste a notecard :)
    Pila Mulligan: it is being slow saving -- a chat with great mass :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Fefonz Quan: a heavy chat, hmmm....
    Pila Mulligan: well, Fefonz, it says the server is expereinceing difficluties
    arabella Ella: very heavy yes
    arabella Ella: but insightuful too
    Pila Mulligan: I'll meail it to you
    Fefonz Quan: thanks :)
    Fefonz Quan: are you guys coming to the summer retreat?
    Mickorod Renard: I would love to,,but unless i win the lottery theres no chance
    arabella Ella: mmmmm ... would love to ... but distance, time, budget ... difficult to overcome at the moment regretfully!
    arabella Ella: here is one of the last snippets from Stim
    arabella Ella: Stim Morane: But the basic idea of "karma" as it was refined a long time ago by the historical Buddha, was based on the importance of seeing our own intentions, and taking responsibility for them.
    arabella Ella: (one of the easier to understand)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, that one was right as i arrived here :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    arabella Ella: oh
    Mickorod Renard: I have the time as i am on school hols then,,but I am extravegant in other ways and woukld find it dificult to justify to my family
    arabella Ella: lemmi see if i can find one earlier
    arabella Ella: 13:43] Stim Morane: what looks like action is not action in the karmic sense, in this hypothetical case [13:43] Stim Morane: Yes, it's one form of wu wei, exactly [13:43] Stim Morane: truly natural action may be beyond action in the karmic sense.
    arabella Ella: now perhaps u can help here Fef
    arabella Ella: what is Wu Wei?
    arabella Ella: (scuse my ignotrace)
    Mickorod Renard: dualism?
    Fefonz Quan: i am planning to be there hopefully, so i wish i could mit you all on RL. maybe next time we should aim for Europe (no offence Pila ;-))
    Mickorod Renard: yeaaaa
    Mickorod Renard: Pila,,you could surf there
    Pila Mulligan: none taken
    arabella Ella: yea would be easier for us in Europe but we understand most of you are from N America
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i can say something about wu-way
    arabella Ella: please?
    Fefonz Quan: well since next september i will be on the middle east :)
    arabella Ella: hey mid east is close to me Fef ... smile
    Fefonz Quan: wu-wei is a concept from Daoism, meaning effort with out effort, or action without effort
    arabella Ella: mmmmmm
    arabella Ella: intruiging
    Pila Mulligan:
    arabella Ella: can u say more please?
    Mickorod Renard: that is a way of life for me
    Mickorod Renard: thats why i am not rich
    arabella Ella: ty Pila ... but I tend to crash when i open other windows with SL
    Fefonz Quan: i am sure this is simplifying, but it points to a way of being here and now,
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: and it pont also to 'no-self' in a way. those are all my interepretations, just to say
    arabella Ella: it is all in line with what Stim said today
    Mickorod Renard: no self as in no self constuction?
    Fefonz Quan: so if connecting to karma as stim said...
    Fefonz Quan: constuction?
    arabella Ella listens
    Mickorod Renard: i mean,,self only as in pure form
    Fefonz Quan: sorry mick, you should say more, i can't grasp that...
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,sorry,,I read it and confused myself
    Mickorod Renard: when u said ' no self' i think by that you mean no self that you may have constructed with illusions
    Fefonz Quan: as i understand, when 'one' sees no-self, it doesn't mean he doesn't act in the world, but the actions that come from 'no-self' are like flowing with the great flow of the world, without ego-wise intentions/fears/hopes, hence there is no effort, and no karma crated
    arabella Ella: yes it sounds like deliberate supression of the selfish ego the way i see it?
    Fefonz Quan: created*
    Fefonz Quan: no suppression!
    Mickorod Renard: i think that is what I was trying to articulate ,,but not as well as you Fef
    Pila Mulligan: another description of wu wei is non-interference with nature, and so actions in harmony with the flow of nature tend to be less difficult
    arabella Ella: may i ask for you to help me with this please ... no karma created?
    Fefonz Quan: agree with pema.
    arabella Ella: Pila you mean :)
    Fefonz Quan: no suppression, since if you 'fight' to suppress the ego, that is also ago-oriented
    Fefonz Quan: yes Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan agrees with Pema sometimes :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    arabella Ella: i dont think i meant supression in the 'fight' or 'struggle' sense but as a natural way of 'being'
    Fefonz Quan: with the risk of saying things about discussion i wasn't in, and maybe be anaccurate, i can say about karma that it is the law of action and consequence.
    arabella Ella: ok ... in line with what Stim said too
    arabella Ella: but how can there be no karma as even inaction is a decision in itself?
    Fefonz Quan: so every action we do, and it can be a thought, talk or action, create karma
    Mickorod Renard: there is control Ara,,that is also counterproductive in this sense
    Fefonz Quan: but in a more subtle way, karma is created from reactions of the ego, or the 'self
    Fefonz Quan: if i hurt someone, i plant a seed of huet and suffering in my consiousness
    arabella Ella: yes
    Fefonz Quan: and someday it will effect the way i behave.
    Pila Mulligan: not to mention the way the person you hurt treats you
    arabella Ella: yes but ... how is no karma possible if everything has consequences?
    Fefonz Quan: so it is like an on-going process of conditioning of our mind
    arabella Ella: Stim refered us to actions as creating situations which have consequences
    Fefonz Quan: yes pema :)
    Mickorod Renard: this is why lying , even if you get away with it in respect to others not knowing, still effects yourself
    arabella Ella: Pema ... Pila
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: exactly Mick
    Fefonz Quan: Pila, sorry :)
    Pila Mulligan takes no offense :)
    Fefonz Quan: but when the mind reaches some 'non-conditioned' state, than it stopps creating karma
    Fefonz Quan: in a way it is like the actions are going transparently through you, without ego-interfering
    Mickorod Renard: its a dificult state to exist in for long in this world Fef
    arabella Ella: sounds like a huge leap to me ... no karma ... altho i expect it is a state when we are at peace and at one with all and everyone
    arabella Ella: sorry shhhhhh
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: sure, and i talk about this state theoretically, surely not from my experience :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Fefonz Quan: another way to look at it is from the letting go angle.
    arabella Ella: so would it be right to say that we should try to reach a state of perfect harmony?
    arabella Ella: perfect balance?
    Fefonz Quan would hesitate a lot before trying to say what we should do ...
    Pila Mulligan: perfect breathing :)
    arabella Ella ... how i wish ...
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: maybe Pema would say, non-perfect perfection
    Pila Mulligan is very physical about all this, and thinks breathing is the best vehicle
    Fefonz Quan: (or was it from some chat log sometime ago)
    Fefonz Quan: breathing is a great vehicle for me too pila
    arabella Ella: sounds like a good start to me Pila thanks for tip
    Mickorod Renard: Pila,, I am intrigued about the breathing,,surely the breathing is a way to good contemplation,,but after that one has to contemplate?
    Fefonz Quan: i liked the balance more than the harmony, cause harmony might point to life with no difficulties, which sounds unreal for me
    Fefonz Quan: why contemplate? just observing might do the job
    arabella Ella: ok ... balace then
    Mickorod Renard: true
    Pila Mulligan: Mick, meditation = posture + breathing + contemplation
    Fefonz Quan: and then, maybe connecting it to wu-way: meditation = any posture, with any breathing, and any thought arising whatsoever
    arabella Ella: sounds like a good way to get started
    Mickorod Renard: i was intrigued in a way because it is central to this form of understanding,,yet in itself has an undefined quality?
    Fefonz Quan: for example, i really like walking meditation
    Pila Mulligan: have you learned any physical posture tricks for the walking part Fefonz?
    arabella Ella: could u tell us more Fef about walking meditation pls
    Fefonz Quan: not at all :) just focusing, if you have to, on the feeling of the touch of the feet and the ground
    Pila Mulligan: yep, and there's another stpe there too, to try if you like ...
    Mickorod Renard: please?
    Fefonz Quan: or on the movement itself
    arabella Ella listens attentively
    Pila Mulligan: imagine the puff of air between your feet and the gorund just before they touch
    Pila Mulligan: like a cushion
    Fefonz Quan: nice one :)
    Pila Mulligan: walknig on air :)
    Mickorod Renard: lol
    arabella Ella: how lovely
    Fefonz Quan: infact it is different from what i practice, but there are many methods :)
    Mickorod Renard: I will never walk the same again
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: learned that from a tai chi teacher
    Fefonz Quan: (fefonz tries to say 'tai chi teacher fast a few times :))
    Fefonz Quan: teacher'*
    Fefonz Quan: so in a way the method i learned is from viapssana tradition
    Mickorod Renard: strangely enough, as a child i was tought to walk in a very quiet way from an old soldier that used to do secret missions in the jungles
    Pila Mulligan: same idea i suspect
    Fefonz Quan: intruiging Mick
    Pila Mulligan: walking in a jungle is a good exercise in wu wei :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Pila Mulligan: ever tried it? you just have to go with the flow
    Pila Mulligan: jungle doe snot open to just a Sunday stroll
    Fefonz Quan: i read in a book some nice saying about it: 'the secret of walking silently isn't about not making any noise, it is about making the same noise as teh environment you are in'
    Mickorod Renard: I have done,,well walking that way
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Fefonz Quan: so it sounds nice to me, not sure it is the practical way :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, it is in harmony with nautre
    arabella Ella: well i like the idea of walking meditation very much
    Fefonz Quan: one of the things i liked about it is the contradiction between daily walking, which has a direction and expecctation go get somewhere (you are not at now)
    Fefonz Quan: and the walking meditatin, when you are 'in the walking' every mommnet, with no expectation and no 'looking forwardness'
    Mickorod Renard: I have managed to do a sort of similar thing driving to work now
    Fefonz Quan: (is it a sitting or walking med? ;-))
    Mickorod Renard: instead of seeing the object as getting to work,,at such n such a time....i am now able to just appreciate the trip
    Pila Mulligan: it is also interesting to do a standing meditation
    Pila Mulligan: just standing still
    Fefonz Quan: sounds nice Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: It makes a huge diference
    arabella Ella: sounds like a great start to a new day Mick
    Fefonz Quan: yes, pila, in teh walking mediation i practice, you choose a short path, so everytime you get to the end of it you stand, turn, and go back
    arabella Ella: i have seen buddhist monks in thailand and laos doing that Fef
    Mickorod Renard: yes it is,,and a profound diference to the stressful way i used to feel,,,and forr no diference in anything other than state of mind
    arabella Ella: i saw some doing sweeping meditation too
    Pila Mulligan: curious Fefonz: do you turn left or right or does it matter?
    arabella Ella: sweeping leaves on the floor
    Fefonz Quan: brb
    Pila Mulligan: bless you
    Pila Mulligan: oh, not burp
    Mickorod Renard: I saw a guy doing it at a swimming pool once,,i asked him and he said he was doing meditation,,but also that it ensured an even tan
    Pila Mulligan: a walking meditation Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Pila Mulligan: I think anything can be the equivalent of meditaiton, depending on how it is done
    Mickorod Renard: kills two birds with one stone
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Mickorod Renard: action without effort
    arabella Ella: well the sweeping mediation I saw the monks doing seemed to be dual purpose somehow :)
    Mickorod Renard: I must show my wife that one
    Pila Mulligan: yep, and my favorite example is a cobbler
    Pila Mulligan: the cobbler learns to make shoes as a meditation
    Mickorod Renard: have you got one for washing pots?
    Mickorod Renard: mowing the lawn meditation?
    Pila Mulligan: indeed
    arabella Ella: doing anything repetitive that 'empties' the mind could be a form of mediation i reckon, not that i am an expert
    arabella Ella: mowing the lawn could be an excellent example methinks
    arabella Ella: not sure about washing cars and bikes tho
    Pila Mulligan: weel, doing anything that leads you to a favorable posture, regular breathing and contemplation = meditation
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i used to get great relaxation from it once,,focussing on making nice lines in the grass
    Mickorod Renard: just goes to show how a chore can become nice with a diferent approach
    Pila Mulligan: true
    arabella Ella: i watch ppl fishing in the sea and that sounds nice too altho i only went fishing once as i cannot bear to see fish caught on a hook suffering ... ouch
    Mickorod Renard: but I would love to find a way to feel that calm amongst the madness of a typical day in the western world
    Pila Mulligan: suffering and madness are part of life
    arabella Ella: Pila ... do u see Tai Chi as being one medium too for contemplation
    Pila Mulligan: meditation tries to balance with those parts
    arabella Ella: ohh shhhhh
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Mickorod Renard: one of the greatest feeling of calm was one i felt so deep in the centre of me,,one of complete at one with the universe,,how I wish I could replicate it every day
    arabella Ella: Pila... yes suffering and madness are part of life ... but what about evil?
    arabella Ella: (it concerns me ... i cannot comprehened it)
    Pila Mulligan: evil is
    Mickorod Renard: and that was conected to an understanding,,almost a joke
    Pila Mulligan: we have a very nice group here, but there are people in the world just as eager to cause harm as we are to do good
    Mickorod Renard: what is your idea on temptation,,is that a natural thing,,or an evil sent to test us?
    arabella Ella: yes Pila and that worries me as when they do evil actions over and over it gets to me ....
    Pila Mulligan: well, violence is perhaps the worst -- if we can aovid that we have taken a big step
    Pila Mulligan: temptaion takes many forms
    Pila Mulligan: as does violence
    arabella Ella: yes altho violence may also be psychological
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I think the underlying idea is to leanr not to take advantage of people
    Pila Mulligan: to be fair and equitable
    arabella Ella: yes ... exploitation of others vulerabilities for example?
    Pila Mulligan: exactly
    Mickorod Renard: do as to others what u want doin to yourself,,,within reason,,he he
    arabella Ella: i dont think that is what Pila meant Mick
    Mickorod Renard: ok folks,,I have to go
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
    Mickorod Renard: but thankyou so much for tonite
    arabella Ella: i must go too
    Pila Mulligan: thank you :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye arableaa, and thank you also
    arabella Ella: thanks Pila for all your help and clarifications
    Mickorod Renard: see you soon
    arabella Ella: bye Fef ... when u read this :)
    Pila Mulligan: aloha
    Pila Mulligan: will wait a moment to see if Fefonz retrns
    Fefonz Quan: still on phone pila, guess i should go :)
    Pila Mulligan: ok, see you next time :)

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