2009.04.24 13:00 - Educational Malfeasance

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Solobill Laville. The comments are by Solobill Laville.

    Pila Mulligan: hi Solobill
    Solobill Laville: Hey, Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Pila
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Solo
    Solobill Laville: Miya, Mick :)
    Solobill Laville: *Hiya
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Mickorod Renard: are you both well?
    Solobill Laville: Pretty well, yes, thanks! You?
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Mickorod Renard: a little angry actually
    Solobill Laville: oh?
    Pila Mulligan: well and angry I hope
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thanks
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: my son has entered his english work for his exams,,and they say its too good to be his own
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello mick, solo, pila
    Pila Mulligan: my, what a compliment
    Solobill Laville: That is an awful thing for an educational instituiont to say!
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,but they say he has to do it again but worse
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Wol :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, none o fthis exceeding expectations crap, please
    Solobill Laville: So, he isn't "allowed" to repeat his good preformance??
    Mickorod Renard: exactly
    Pila Mulligan: Pink Floyd .... comes tom mind
    Mickorod Renard: i sat with him for hours while he did it
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Solobill Laville: Uhhhh...methinks that would justify him...
    Mickorod Renard: but if they wont accept it ,then he will have to do it again
    Mickorod Renard: but worse
    Wol Euler: absurd
    Pila Mulligan: "we don't need no thought control ...."
    Solobill Laville: Yeah, I don't get that
    Pila Mulligan: hi Qt
    Mickorod Renard: Hi QT
    Solobill Laville: is this criteria-refernced testing? I.e. have the met the numbers of "good" students and can't have more?
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Wol Euler: buona sera QT
    Qt Core: buona sera Wol
    Wol Euler: perhaps he forgot to register as "good" before starting hte school year?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Solobill Laville: Hello, QT :)
    Mickorod Renard: maybe,,I think his early half hearted work has set a standard that they dont want to exeed
    Solobill Laville: Yes, thought it sounded political in some way
    Wol Euler: how dare he confound their opinions
    Wol Euler: has he no respect?
    Mickorod Renard: doesnt look like it
    Qt Core: topic ?
    Wol Euler: (sorry, Mick, I know you are a teacher too ... :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, this is a good life lesson for him, and you Mick, I hate to say
    Mickorod Renard: I help my students to get the highest results
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Pila Mulligan: I've been thinking a lot about Stim's Thursday ethics session, and for many people turth is not an important precept - they are usually confused :)
    Pila Mulligan: but one finds many people like that in life
    Solobill Laville: A life lesson to be sure, but also a potential toxic experience with education
    Wol Euler: yes, to be regretted and feared.
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Pila Mulligan: life presents such toxicity form time to time
    Wol Euler: Mick please make sure he understands taht this is bad teaching, not a general principle
    Solobill Laville: small-t 'truth' is maleable
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Mickorod Renard: i will do my best,,but he has lost alot of confidence in adults
    Pila Mulligan: maybe he gains some self-confidence
    Pila Mulligan: independence
    Wol Euler: Philip Larkin got it nearly right: "they fuck you up, your mum and dad - and also the teachers and preachers and example setters"
    Mickorod Renard: he will work it out..as we all have had to i guess
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Wol Euler: http://www.artofeurope.com/larkin/lar2.htm
    Solobill Laville: There is a delicate balance between idealisma and fatalism
    Solobill Laville: *idealism
    Pila Mulligan: let's follow this a bit further and think of another situation, after school, where one encounters simialr confusion
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Pila Mulligan: attend to medioctiry wouold be the theme
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    Qt Core: hi arabella
    Pila Mulligan: hi arableaa
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Ara :)
    Pila Mulligan: arabella*
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i think that one can look too good in adult hood also,,people like comfort,,and sometimes its wanted that you dont cause ripples
    Pila Mulligan: yes, comfort is the thing -- sloth like comfort
    Pila Mulligan: I worked on the railroad for a brief time -- the relaitonship between the union and the company was like something from the 1800's
    Mickorod Renard: lol
    Pila Mulligan: *do not* rock boat was tule #1
    Pila Mulligan: rule*
    arabella Ella: still is most places :)
    arabella Ella: may I ask what the topic is
    Pila Mulligan: Mick's sone's teachers confusion :)
    arabella Ella: and apologies for being late but I am overseas :)
    Solobill Laville: I'll email you a notecard, may be easier :)
    arabella Ella: ty
    Qt Core: to me too, please, i'm still a little lost here, Solobill ;-)
    Qt Core: ty
    Solobill Laville: yw :)
    arabella Ella: ty
    Solobill Laville: But I think what makes this so poignant is that it is an obvious failure of the ed system for a youth...
    Mickorod Renard: it will end up where i now have to spend my weekend re writting them for him,,cos he is so annoyed at it
    Qt Core: ohhh
    Mickorod Renard: so in the end they will be done by someone else
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: self-fulfilling confusion
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Solobill Laville: Is this for university placement?
    Qt Core: if i remember correctly in one of the scandinavian states if you are too good at shool they call your parent and tell them their sons make the other classmates to feel unworty
    Mickorod Renard: not quite
    Solobill Laville: k
    Mickorod Renard: he is 15 nearly 16
    Solobill Laville: I think there are many adult examples, especially in the workplace
    Solobill Laville: this makes people disengage
    Solobill Laville: lack of efficacy
    Pila Mulligan: it certainly reminds me of the fellow appearing in Stim's session before last saying truth is not a valid tool in the real world
    Mickorod Renard: yes, my work sent me on several learning courses,,but then didnt want to know about new work practices,,so i ask myself what the worth was
    Solobill Laville: because "truth" is subjective?
    Pila Mulligan: because lying gets you further
    Pila Mulligan: or faster
    Solobill Laville: Right, and "real world" is subjective as hell
    Pila Mulligan: or more efficeintly
    Pila Mulligan: to use a term I do not like :)
    Solobill Laville: (Because you are 'supposed' to send people to training - > Mick) ;)
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    Mickorod Renard: fortunately where i am now seems to be ok
    Solobill Laville: That is a very low-level definiation of truth, even in the relative meaning...
    Pila Mulligan: Stim's point has been that honesty with yourself is valuable, and being honest in general healps you find it ... this type of situation pushes people toward frustration and anger, and that is actually a very good time for honesty :)
    Pila Mulligan: less truth as an abstracttion, Solo, more simple self-honesty
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,to see beyond the madness of the actual world we live in
    Solobill Laville: Right, I was up in the clouds... :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    arabella Ella: nice place to be Solo :)
    Solobill Laville: You don't get wet when it rains....
    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
    Wol Euler: morning Tarmel
    Solobill Laville: heya, tarmel :)
    Tarmel Udimo: HI All
    Qt Core: hi tamel
    arabella Ella: right and u could float in a state of being comfortably numb
    arabella Ella: Hiya Tarmel
    Pila Mulligan: here's where this caht began, Tarmel: [13:09] Mickorod Renard: my son has entered his english work for his exams,,and they say its too good to be his own ... they say he has to do it again but worse
    Mickorod Renard: hi Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: wow
    Pila Mulligan: we have been lmaenting poor education practices, etc
    Mickorod Renard: doesnt encourage the honest approach
    Tarmel Udimo: hard to believe for so many reasons!
    Qt Core: a year i had such a bad math teacher the headmaster (a math professor) had to tell him to forget about part of the course ... as he teached it soo badly
    Mickorod Renard: well,,i think they had him pegged as a certain grade,,and now his work far exceeds what they want to award him
    Solobill Laville: Armchair consulting here - I'd imagine something is badly misaligned between the vision of the ed dept and its implimentation...
    Pila Mulligan: reflects the mindless pushing and compulsion that is the worst apsect of some instutional habits
    Solobill Laville: yes, private institutions just as much
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: send that teacher here, Mick
    Solobill Laville: Oooh....yeah
    Solobill Laville: man, would I eject him/her!!
    Pila Mulligan: after due castigation
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Wol Euler nods
    Solobill Laville: Did Storm finish building the castigation booth yet? ;)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,its got to be sorted for this Tuesday,,i dont have the luxury of time to debate it with them
    Pila Mulligan: I think we just throw them in the pool with a bar of soap
    Solobill Laville: Or the fountain
    Mickorod Renard: but as with Stims class,,one can see why people are drawn into working outside honesty
    Pila Mulligan: yes Mick, in the end it is a worse burden that the teacher misses the castigation
    arabella Ella: i think this is just another form of bullying ... which unfortunately is still very rife
    arabella Ella: and also of power struggle ... in the sense that 'I am the teacher and I know best'
    arabella Ella: but they have no right ... after all they set the assignment as a home piece of work
    Pila Mulligan: for the teacher, that is
    Mickorod Renard: I cant afford to play politics with his life,,its damge limitation at the moment
    arabella Ella: but you have to remember Mick that at his age results affect his future life
    Mickorod Renard: to be fair his teacher wasnt the problem,,it was the moderator
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    arabella Ella: I think you could argue that they have no evidence for their assertions ... they are totally unfounded and without evidence
    Tarmel Udimo: what do you do in a situation like this?
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure they have the ability to enforce their opinions,,I have until this Tuesday to sort it,,so i cannot risk him getting nothing
    arabella Ella: I think opinion without evidence for an accusation like this amounts to slander
    arabella Ella: and an attack on his integrity ... and yours too ... which is totally unjustified
    arabella Ella: surely opinion is not sufficient ... ooops ... shhhh
    Mickorod Renard: the problem is that there have been many cases,,often with oversea's students..who do cheat the system,,due to this there is a method of enforcement that unfortunately we have fallen foul of
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Wol Euler: there is a simple and easy way to establish this, though, if the school could be bothered to do it.
    Pila Mulligan: profiling
    Wol Euler: Call him in, sit him down, and ask him a question about hte paper. Then ask "what does that mean?"
    Wol Euler: and keep asking it.
    Wol Euler: If he wrote the paper, he'll be able to answer. If not, he'll stumble on the second question and you have him caught.
    Wol Euler: Simple.
    Mickorod Renard: true,,but I think the deadline has made that imposible
    Wol Euler: can they bother to do it, though?
    arabella Ella: yes similar to a viva
    Solobill Laville: Still, though, assumed guilty and having to prove his innocence
    Wol Euler: my mother was an English teacher, that was her method :)
    arabella Ella: a sort of interview
    Pila Mulligan: the well being of your son is the most important concern
    Mickorod Renard: but these essays were done ages ago,,i dont think that would be fair now either
    Solobill Laville: Right, Pila
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i dont think he needs the pressure
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: its comming around to exam time and he is already stressed out
    Pila Mulligan: incidentally, I learned how to greet Pema while he is in Japan: konnichi-ha Pema san -- (means good day)
    Mickorod Renard: this is the sort of learning that you get when young that makes you believe that honesty doesnt pay
    Mickorod Renard: cool
    Wol Euler: ... or that supervisors and monitors are incompetent fools...
    Wol Euler: depends how you take it :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Pila Mulligan: so a little help with the honesty lessons is needed then Mick
    Mickorod Renard: its wierd though,,at my place we strive to get the highest awards for our kids,,even stretching the boundaries for them
    Pila Mulligan: papa style :)
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    Solobill Laville: papa style.... :)
    Mickorod Renard: do we have phenemology soon?
    Pila Mulligan: there are good teachers and bad teachers -- same as everything
    Solobill Laville: But a decent system should act in some way to safeguard this type of thing...
    Solobill Laville: *against
    arabella Ella nods
    Pila Mulligan: it is almost noon
    Pila Mulligan: oops, almost @:00 SLT
    Pila Mulligan: 2*
    Mickorod Renard: well,,maybe it works for more than against,,its just bad luck for my lad
    Tarmel Udimo: almost time
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry I am still floundering in amazement
    Tarmel Udimo: it just fels very wrong
    Tarmel Udimo: can you say no
    Tarmel Udimo: you will not let your child redo
    Mickorod Renard: well,,they say he wont get a mark
    Mickorod Renard: and I cant risk that
    Tarmel Udimo: but that couldn't happen
    Wol Euler: what prevents them saying that the redone paper is also not his work?
    Tarmel Udimo: he's done the work
    Tarmel Udimo: exactly
    Pila Mulligan: a hostage situation
    Mickorod Renard: well,,they are sayin that it has to be similar to his initial in class piece
    Solobill Laville: Ha! but worse!
    Mickorod Renard: but the teacher then gave him so many notes on what she wanted changing that he did it how she wanted
    Wol Euler: so basically they are saying that they don'T believe in learning or improvement.
    Mickorod Renard: now,,that means its altered significantly
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Wol Euler: fail once, a failure for ever. What century is this?
    Tarmel Udimo: (excuse me Pheono calls)
    Tarmel Udimo: (good luck Mick)
    Mickorod Renard: ty
    Wol Euler: (bye tarmel! happy saturday)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Tarmel
    Wol Euler: (wonders whether using parentheses to evade the bell is a kind of lying?)
    Solobill Laville: (wouldn't know, i can't hear you)
    Wol Euler: (exactly)
    Solobill Laville: (what?)
    Solobill Laville: ah, me....
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,Phenemology anyone?
    Pila Mulligan: (______________)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Solobill Laville: Ooh...
    arabella Ella: oh yes pheno
    arabella Ella: must go to pheno then bye everyone
    Solobill Laville: Pila's Vulcan mind block
    Wol Euler: not for me, Mick. Enjoy -- and encouragements to your son. Nil carborundum.
    Solobill Laville: Yes, best Mick
    Solobill Laville: Bye Ara
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou for your ears
    Pila Mulligan: well, I hope we all learned somethinig
    Solobill Laville: yw
    arabella Ella: bye and good luck Mick
    Qt Core: bye Mick
    Wol Euler: bye mick, bye ara
    Mickorod Renard: bye folks
    Solobill Laville: Bye
    Wol Euler: poor kid. Education can be such a scam.
    Wol Euler: and especially in England, which is still a static class-ridden society
    Pila Mulligan: true,Wol
    Wol Euler: I actually sat the Cambridge Entrance Exams, in a moment of swollenheaded weakness
    Wol Euler: failed miserably :)
    Wol Euler: because I didn't understand what they wanted to know.
    Wol Euler: I remember that one of the questions (physics) had a simple answer that could be given in two sentences. But the exam was three hours long.
    Wol Euler: So clearly they didn't want me to tell them the answer...
    Wol Euler: they wanted me to prove that I was the right kind of person, and I failed at that.
    Wol Euler: in retrospect: thank god. But it hurt at the time
    Pila Mulligan: yes, the hard lessons hurt
    Pila Mulligan: but there is a new Star Trek movie
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: and tea and chocolate biscuits
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: (especially chocolate)
    Solobill Laville: OK, all good things must come to and end
    Solobill Laville: and I must purchase popsickles
    Wol Euler cheers.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: see you next time Solobill
    Wol Euler: I approve of p
    Wol Euler: bye solo, take care, watch the drips.
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: Have a great weekend everyone!
    Wol Euler: likewise"
    Pila Mulligan: thanks, same to you
    Qt Core: bye solo. you too
    Wol Euler: I shall head out too, goodnight all, enjoy your weekends
    Qt Core: bye wol
    Pila Mulligan: isn't the next session later the one with the theme Pax et Bonum?
    Pila Mulligan: bye wol
    Qt Core: maybe, i just read the time it would be and though it was out of my reach so it may be
    Pila Mulligan: I recently talked with a neighbor having a situaiton like the math teahcer you mentioned Qt
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it must be late there
    Qt Core: it will be 5am ;-)
    Pila Mulligan: it is a tough situation when your child has a bad teacher
    Qt Core: luckily (in this case) i have none
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Qt Core: i had my own bad and good adventures with the schooling system ;-)
    Pila Mulligan: same here
    Pila Mulligan: well, i suppose I should be dealing with some real life stuff, it is midday here
    Qt Core: and i should go wasting some time around SL before sleep come to me ;-)
    Pila Mulligan: see you next time Qt, bye for now
    Qt Core: Bye Pila
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