The Guardian for this meeting was Solobill Laville. The comments are by Solobill Laville.
Pila Mulligan: hi Solobill
Solobill Laville: Hey, Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pila
Mickorod Renard: Hi Solo
Solobill Laville: Miya, Mick :)
Solobill Laville: *Hiya
Solobill Laville: :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Mickorod Renard: are you both well?
Solobill Laville: Pretty well, yes, thanks! You?
Pila Mulligan: yep
Mickorod Renard: a little angry actually
Solobill Laville: oh?
Pila Mulligan: well and angry I hope
Mickorod Renard: yes,,thanks
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: my son has entered his english work for his exams,,and they say its too good to be his own
Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello mick, solo, pila
Pila Mulligan: my, what a compliment
Solobill Laville: That is an awful thing for an educational instituiont to say!
Mickorod Renard: yes,,but they say he has to do it again but worse
Solobill Laville: Hi, Wol :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, none o fthis exceeding expectations crap, please
Solobill Laville: So, he isn't "allowed" to repeat his good preformance??
Mickorod Renard: exactly
Pila Mulligan: Pink Floyd .... comes tom mind
Mickorod Renard: i sat with him for hours while he did it
Wol Euler: yeah
Solobill Laville: Uhhhh...methinks that would justify him...
Mickorod Renard: but if they wont accept it ,then he will have to do it again
Mickorod Renard: but worse
Wol Euler: absurd
Pila Mulligan: "we don't need no thought control ...."
Solobill Laville: Yeah, I don't get that
Pila Mulligan: hi Qt
Mickorod Renard: Hi QT
Solobill Laville: is this criteria-refernced testing? I.e. have the met the numbers of "good" students and can't have more?
Qt Core: Hi all
Wol Euler: buona sera QT
Qt Core: buona sera Wol
Wol Euler: perhaps he forgot to register as "good" before starting hte school year?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Solobill Laville: Hello, QT :)
Mickorod Renard: maybe,,I think his early half hearted work has set a standard that they dont want to exeed
Solobill Laville: Yes, thought it sounded political in some way
Wol Euler: how dare he confound their opinions
Wol Euler: has he no respect?
Mickorod Renard: doesnt look like it
Qt Core: topic ?
Wol Euler: (sorry, Mick, I know you are a teacher too ... :)
Pila Mulligan: well, this is a good life lesson for him, and you Mick, I hate to say
Mickorod Renard: I help my students to get the highest results
Mickorod Renard: oops
Pila Mulligan: I've been thinking a lot about Stim's Thursday ethics
session, and for many people turth is not an important precept - they
are usually confused :)
Pila Mulligan: but one finds many people like that in life
Solobill Laville: A life lesson to be sure, but also a potential toxic experience with education
Wol Euler: yes, to be regretted and feared.
Mickorod Renard: yes
Pila Mulligan: life presents such toxicity form time to time
Wol Euler: Mick please make sure he understands taht this is bad teaching, not a general principle
Solobill Laville: small-t 'truth' is maleable
Pila Mulligan: yep
Mickorod Renard: i will do my best,,but he has lost alot of confidence in adults
Pila Mulligan: maybe he gains some self-confidence
Pila Mulligan: independence
Wol Euler: Philip Larkin got it nearly right: "they fuck you up, your
mum and dad - and also the teachers and preachers and example setters"
Mickorod Renard: he will work it out..as we all have had to i guess
Pila Mulligan: yep
Wol Euler:
http://www.artofeurope.com/larkin/lar2.htm
Solobill Laville: There is a delicate balance between idealisma and fatalism
Solobill Laville: *idealism
Pila Mulligan: let's follow this a bit further and think of another
situation, after school, where one encounters simialr confusion
Mickorod Renard: ok
Pila Mulligan: attend to medioctiry wouold be the theme
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
Wol Euler: hello ara
Qt Core: hi arabella
Pila Mulligan: hi arableaa
Solobill Laville: Hi, Ara :)
Pila Mulligan: arabella*
arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i think that one can look too good in adult hood
also,,people like comfort,,and sometimes its wanted that you dont cause
ripples
Pila Mulligan: yes, comfort is the thing -- sloth like comfort
Pila Mulligan: I worked on the railroad for a brief time -- the
relaitonship between the union and the company was like something from
the 1800's
Mickorod Renard: lol
Pila Mulligan: *do not* rock boat was tule #1
Pila Mulligan: rule*
arabella Ella: still is most places :)
arabella Ella: may I ask what the topic is
Pila Mulligan: Mick's sone's teachers confusion :)
arabella Ella: and apologies for being late but I am overseas :)
Solobill Laville: I'll email you a notecard, may be easier :)
arabella Ella: ty
Qt Core: to me too, please, i'm still a little lost here, Solobill ;-)
Qt Core: ty
Solobill Laville: yw :)
arabella Ella: ty
Solobill Laville: But I think what makes this so poignant is that it is an obvious failure of the ed system for a youth...
Mickorod Renard: it will end up where i now have to spend my weekend re writting them for him,,cos he is so annoyed at it
Qt Core: ohhh
Mickorod Renard: so in the end they will be done by someone else
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: self-fulfilling confusion
Mickorod Renard: yes
Solobill Laville: Is this for university placement?
Qt Core: if i remember correctly in one of the scandinavian states if
you are too good at shool they call your parent and tell them their
sons make the other classmates to feel unworty
Mickorod Renard: not quite
Solobill Laville: k
Mickorod Renard: he is 15 nearly 16
Solobill Laville: I think there are many adult examples, especially in the workplace
Solobill Laville: this makes people disengage
Solobill Laville: lack of efficacy
Pila Mulligan: it certainly reminds me of the fellow appearing in
Stim's session before last saying truth is not a valid tool in the real
world
Mickorod Renard: yes, my work sent me on several learning courses,,but
then didnt want to know about new work practices,,so i ask myself what
the worth was
Solobill Laville: because "truth" is subjective?
Pila Mulligan: because lying gets you further
Pila Mulligan: or faster
Solobill Laville: Right, and "real world" is subjective as hell
Pila Mulligan: or more efficeintly
Pila Mulligan: to use a term I do not like :)
Solobill Laville: (Because you are 'supposed' to send people to training - > Mick) ;)
Mickorod Renard: yea
Mickorod Renard: fortunately where i am now seems to be ok
Solobill Laville: That is a very low-level definiation of truth, even in the relative meaning...
Pila Mulligan: Stim's point has been that honesty with yourself is
valuable, and being honest in general healps you find it ... this type
of situation pushes people toward frustration and anger, and that is
actually a very good time for honesty :)
Pila Mulligan: less truth as an abstracttion, Solo, more simple self-honesty
Mickorod Renard: yes,,to see beyond the madness of the actual world we live in
Solobill Laville: Right, I was up in the clouds... :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
arabella Ella: nice place to be Solo :)
Solobill Laville: You don't get wet when it rains....
Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Wol Euler: morning Tarmel
Solobill Laville: heya, tarmel :)
Tarmel Udimo: HI All
Qt Core: hi tamel
arabella Ella: right and u could float in a state of being comfortably numb
arabella Ella: Hiya Tarmel
Pila Mulligan: here's where this caht began, Tarmel: [13:09] Mickorod
Renard: my son has entered his english work for his exams,,and they say
its too good to be his own ... they say he has to do it again but worse
Mickorod Renard: hi Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: wow
Pila Mulligan: we have been lmaenting poor education practices, etc
Mickorod Renard: doesnt encourage the honest approach
Tarmel Udimo: hard to believe for so many reasons!
Qt Core: a year i had such a bad math teacher the headmaster (a math
professor) had to tell him to forget about part of the course ... as he
teached it soo badly
Mickorod Renard: well,,i think they had him pegged as a certain grade,,and now his work far exceeds what they want to award him
Solobill Laville: Armchair consulting here - I'd imagine something is
badly misaligned between the vision of the ed dept and its
implimentation...
Pila Mulligan: reflects the mindless pushing and compulsion that is the worst apsect of some instutional habits
Solobill Laville: yes, private institutions just as much
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: send that teacher here, Mick
Solobill Laville: Oooh....yeah
Solobill Laville: man, would I eject him/her!!
Pila Mulligan: after due castigation
Solobill Laville: hehe
Wol Euler nods
Solobill Laville: Did Storm finish building the castigation booth yet? ;)
Mickorod Renard: well,,its got to be sorted for this Tuesday,,i dont have the luxury of time to debate it with them
Pila Mulligan: I think we just throw them in the pool with a bar of soap
Solobill Laville: Or the fountain
Mickorod Renard: but as with Stims class,,one can see why people are drawn into working outside honesty
Pila Mulligan: yes Mick, in the end it is a worse burden that the teacher misses the castigation
arabella Ella: i think this is just another form of bullying ... which unfortunately is still very rife
arabella Ella: and also of power struggle ... in the sense that 'I am the teacher and I know best'
arabella Ella: but they have no right ... after all they set the assignment as a home piece of work
Pila Mulligan: for the teacher, that is
Mickorod Renard: I cant afford to play politics with his life,,its damge limitation at the moment
arabella Ella: but you have to remember Mick that at his age results affect his future life
Mickorod Renard: to be fair his teacher wasnt the problem,,it was the moderator
Tarmel Udimo: nods
arabella Ella: I think you could argue that they have no evidence for
their assertions ... they are totally unfounded and without evidence
Tarmel Udimo: what do you do in a situation like this?
Mickorod Renard: I am sure they have the ability to enforce their
opinions,,I have until this Tuesday to sort it,,so i cannot risk him
getting nothing
arabella Ella: I think opinion without evidence for an accusation like this amounts to slander
arabella Ella: and an attack on his integrity ... and yours too ... which is totally unjustified
arabella Ella: surely opinion is not sufficient ... ooops ... shhhh
Mickorod Renard: the problem is that there have been many cases,,often
with oversea's students..who do cheat the system,,due to this there is
a method of enforcement that unfortunately we have fallen foul of
Mickorod Renard: oops
Wol Euler: there is a simple and easy way to establish this, though, if the school could be bothered to do it.
Pila Mulligan: profiling
Wol Euler: Call him in, sit him down, and ask him a question about hte paper. Then ask "what does that mean?"
Wol Euler: and keep asking it.
Wol Euler: If he wrote the paper, he'll be able to answer. If not, he'll stumble on the second question and you have him caught.
Wol Euler: Simple.
Mickorod Renard: true,,but I think the deadline has made that imposible
Wol Euler: can they bother to do it, though?
arabella Ella: yes similar to a viva
Solobill Laville: Still, though, assumed guilty and having to prove his innocence
Wol Euler: my mother was an English teacher, that was her method :)
arabella Ella: a sort of interview
Pila Mulligan: the well being of your son is the most important concern
Mickorod Renard: but these essays were done ages ago,,i dont think that would be fair now either
Solobill Laville: Right, Pila
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i dont think he needs the pressure
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: its comming around to exam time and he is already stressed out
Pila Mulligan: incidentally, I learned how to greet Pema while he is in Japan: konnichi-ha Pema san -- (means good day)
Mickorod Renard: this is the sort of learning that you get when young that makes you believe that honesty doesnt pay
Mickorod Renard: cool
Wol Euler: ... or that supervisors and monitors are incompetent fools...
Wol Euler: depends how you take it :)
Mickorod Renard: yes
Pila Mulligan: so a little help with the honesty lessons is needed then Mick
Mickorod Renard: its wierd though,,at my place we strive to get the
highest awards for our kids,,even stretching the boundaries for them
Pila Mulligan: papa style :)
Mickorod Renard: yea
Solobill Laville: papa style.... :)
Mickorod Renard: do we have phenemology soon?
Pila Mulligan: there are good teachers and bad teachers -- same as everything
Solobill Laville: But a decent system should act in some way to safeguard this type of thing...
Solobill Laville: *against
arabella Ella nods
Pila Mulligan: it is almost noon
Pila Mulligan: oops, almost @:00 SLT
Pila Mulligan: 2*
Mickorod Renard: well,,maybe it works for more than against,,its just bad luck for my lad
Tarmel Udimo: almost time
Tarmel Udimo: sorry I am still floundering in amazement
Tarmel Udimo: it just fels very wrong
Tarmel Udimo: can you say no
Tarmel Udimo: you will not let your child redo
Mickorod Renard: well,,they say he wont get a mark
Mickorod Renard: and I cant risk that
Tarmel Udimo: but that couldn't happen
Wol Euler: what prevents them saying that the redone paper is also not his work?
Tarmel Udimo: he's done the work
Tarmel Udimo: exactly
Pila Mulligan: a hostage situation
Mickorod Renard: well,,they are sayin that it has to be similar to his initial in class piece
Solobill Laville: Ha! but worse!
Mickorod Renard: but the teacher then gave him so many notes on what she wanted changing that he did it how she wanted
Wol Euler: so basically they are saying that they don'T believe in learning or improvement.
Mickorod Renard: now,,that means its altered significantly
Mickorod Renard: yes
Wol Euler: fail once, a failure for ever. What century is this?
Tarmel Udimo: (excuse me Pheono calls)
Tarmel Udimo: (good luck Mick)
Mickorod Renard: ty
Wol Euler: (bye tarmel! happy saturday)
Mickorod Renard: bye Tarmel
Wol Euler: (wonders whether using parentheses to evade the bell is a kind of lying?)
Solobill Laville: (wouldn't know, i can't hear you)
Wol Euler: (exactly)
Solobill Laville: (what?)
Solobill Laville: ah, me....
Mickorod Renard: ok,,Phenemology anyone?
Pila Mulligan: (______________)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Solobill Laville: Ooh...
arabella Ella: oh yes pheno
arabella Ella: must go to pheno then bye everyone
Solobill Laville: Pila's Vulcan mind block
Wol Euler: not for me, Mick. Enjoy -- and encouragements to your son. Nil carborundum.
Solobill Laville: Yes, best Mick
Solobill Laville: Bye Ara
Pila Mulligan: bye for now
Mickorod Renard: thankyou for your ears
Pila Mulligan: well, I hope we all learned somethinig
Solobill Laville: yw
arabella Ella: bye and good luck Mick
Qt Core: bye Mick
Wol Euler: bye mick, bye ara
Mickorod Renard: bye folks
Solobill Laville: Bye
Wol Euler: poor kid. Education can be such a scam.
Wol Euler: and especially in England, which is still a static class-ridden society
Pila Mulligan: true,Wol
Wol Euler: I actually sat the Cambridge Entrance Exams, in a moment of swollenheaded weakness
Wol Euler: failed miserably :)
Wol Euler: because I didn't understand what they wanted to know.
Wol Euler: I remember that one of the questions (physics) had a simple
answer that could be given in two sentences. But the exam was three
hours long.
Wol Euler: So clearly they didn't want me to tell them the answer...
Wol Euler: they wanted me to prove that I was the right kind of person, and I failed at that.
Wol Euler: in retrospect: thank god. But it hurt at the time
Pila Mulligan: yes, the hard lessons hurt
Pila Mulligan: but there is a new Star Trek movie
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: and tea and chocolate biscuits
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: (especially chocolate)
Solobill Laville: OK, all good things must come to and end
Solobill Laville: and I must purchase popsickles
Wol Euler cheers.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: see you next time Solobill
Wol Euler: I approve of p
Wol Euler: bye solo, take care, watch the drips.
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: Have a great weekend everyone!
Wol Euler: likewise"
Pila Mulligan: thanks, same to you
Qt Core: bye solo. you too
Wol Euler: I shall head out too, goodnight all, enjoy your weekends
Qt Core: bye wol
Pila Mulligan: isn't the next session later the one with the theme Pax et Bonum?
Pila Mulligan: bye wol
Qt Core: maybe, i just read the time it would be and though it was out of my reach so it may be
Pila Mulligan: I recently talked with a neighbor having a situaiton like the math teahcer you mentioned Qt
Pila Mulligan: yes, it must be late there
Qt Core: it will be 5am ;-)
Pila Mulligan: it is a tough situation when your child has a bad teacher
Qt Core: luckily (in this case) i have none
Pila Mulligan: :)
Qt Core: i had my own bad and good adventures with the schooling system ;-)
Pila Mulligan: same here
Pila Mulligan: well, i suppose I should be dealing with some real life stuff, it is midday here
Qt Core: and i should go wasting some time around SL before sleep come to me ;-)
Pila Mulligan: see you next time Qt, bye for now
Qt Core: Bye Pila