2009.04.27 13:00 - A few fruitful days

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    {Based on a personal reflection supplied by Gaya, we discussed different ways of working with the mind.}

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya
    Tarmel Udimo: morning stim, scath & gaya
    Stim Morane: Hi Tarmel, Gaya, Scathach
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath, Stim andn Tarmel :)
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Tarmel Udimo: or should we say nice bunny!
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles .
    Stim Morane: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
    Stim Morane: Hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya, Tarmel, Stim and Scathach
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've had had a few 'fruitful' days since WoK workshop last week..
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Stim Morane: Can you elaborate?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I saw how my attitude towards myself subtly affects how I view others. Before I thought I have different 'standard' on myself ...
    Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
    Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
    Fefonz Quan: Aloha everybody :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
    Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Fefonz
    Gaya Ethaniel: But looks like at the core, attitude towards myself and others seem to be more or less same.
    Stim Morane: So is this something you find you can change?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not easily... it seems to need a fundamental change of a sort.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Don't think reating 'symptons' will work.
    Gaya Ethaniel: treating*
    Stim Morane: A good start! Would you agree that this amounts to saying it involves working with the mind itself?
    Mickorod Renard: Hi guys
    Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
    Stim Morane: Hi Mick
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: n gals
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it seems that way though I am not sure what I should be doing >.<
    Stim Morane: Any suggestions, anyone?
    Fefonz Quan: (about what?)
    Mickorod Renard: what was the subject again please?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Aurora
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry let me notecard what I said Fefonz. One moment...
    Aurora Kitaj: hello everyone, sorry I'm late:)
    Stim Morane: hi Aurora
    Fefonz Quan: hi Aurora
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Aurora
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Aurora
    Aurora Kitaj: nice to see everyone
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Aurora
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
    Tarmel Udimo: Do you have to do anything?
    Wol Euler: evening everyone, sorry I'm late
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Wol
    Aurora Kitaj: hi wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hi Mick, Aurora and Wol :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
    Tarmel Udimo: I try not to do anything, but I try to shift my mind as soon as the thought emotion arises
    Tarmel Udimo: almost like seeing through it
    Mickorod Renard: Gaya,,can u paste the topic in chat for us?
    Tarmel Udimo: but once shifted one has to let go completely
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Wol
    Mickorod Renard: thansk
    Gaya Ethaniel: Welcom.
    Tarmel Udimo: but that just an approcah that works for me:)
    Mickorod Renard: hi QT
    Wol Euler: hello qt
    Stim Morane: QT
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Pila Mulligan: hi Qt
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello QT
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok thanks. I will try that though I can't seem to be able to do more than noticing (not shifting).
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
    Fefonz Quan sorry to say, but though i got the notecard i can't grasp what we are talking about
    Mickorod Renard: I think part of the dificulty is that as we change and then see others in a diferent light we should still remind ourselves that we too had an old self before
    Mickorod Renard: I like to think of it like I had a virus scan and file cleanout,,and although changed and running better i am still the same me
    Tarmel Udimo: I find the shift has to be instant Gaya, almost like just sensing the tip of the thought and poof shift
    Qt Core: are we speaking about some form of enlightment ?
    Tarmel Udimo: working with the mind:)
    Qt Core: a delicate thing to play with ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Daisey
    Fefonz Quan: i guess we are working with it all teh time Qt :)
    Fefonz Quan: (at least some of us ;-))
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok Tarmel. Mick I don't quite grasp what you mean. Could you expand a bit please?
    Qt Core: there was an article today on Slashdot about people using medecines (even if healthy) to increase their mental "power"
    Wol Euler: hello daisy, I'll give you an introduction in IM so that we don't disturb the others
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Daisy.
    Daisy Iadyl: hi all
    Qt Core: hi Daisy
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Daisy
    Mickorod Renard: I thought we were talking about after we realise that living through lie's or elaborated self image etc is not an ideal way of living,,we see things diferently?
    Fefonz Quan: seems like my mind didnt return from teh buddhist meditation retreat i was on this weekend... you didn;t worn us that this is a side effect Stim :)
    Mickorod Renard: maybe i am off track?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: Mick, that's part of the track.
    sophia Placebo: hi
    Mickorod Renard: thats a relief
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
    Pila Mulligan: hi sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi sophie
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    Stim Morane: I think we’ve just been talking about working with the mind, and how ... it all started with a “why”—that we have patterns of mind (re ourselves or others) that are problematical.
    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I'm just pondering and digesting what's been said.
    Mickorod Renard: I was making a presumption about the aspect of the class meetings we had
    Mickorod Renard: please dont take it that i am suggesting we are all bad in any way
    Stim Morane: I'll try.
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Gaya Ethaniel: No not at all Mick :) My point was certainly related to 'self-image' or 'lie' and how it in fact affects in other areas beyond personal boundary.
    Gaya Ethaniel: [In my case that is]
    Tarmel Udimo: We've been working with what we're calling filters in Pheno sort if the same thing
    Tarmel Udimo: *of
    Mickorod Renard: phew,,thanks gaya,,i was wondering whether I had put my foot in it
    Aurora Kitaj: sorry, I do apologise, I have to go and see a friend
    Tarmel Udimo: and its fascinating to observe how deeply embedded they are:)
    Aurora Kitaj: it was so nice to see everyone after such a long time
    Mickorod Renard: bye Aurora
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Aurora :)
    Wol Euler: bye aurora, take care
    Tarmel Udimo: bye aurora
    Qt Core: bye Aurora
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Aurora
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Aurora
    Stim Morane: Bye Aurora
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking earlier how so many of our classes and pab seem to tie in after a while
    Mickorod Renard: including dreams
    Stim Morane: Working with the mind starts when we see a reason to do so. Then we’re left with the “how” ... this is where things get complicated.
    Mickorod Renard: seeing filters
    Stim Morane: Meanwhile, because Gaya’s example also illustrates the issue of codependent arising, there is the opportunity to “work on the mind” in a way that specifically emphasizes seeing more re this codependence. Just becoming more aware of the latter in various cases is actually a way of “working on the mind”.
    Wol Euler: hello Lubna, I'll give you an introduction in IM so that we don't disturb the others
    Fefonz Quan listening carefully to Stim
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    Stim Morane: I wasn't about to start on a long discourse ... just making a comment.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: It's really Gaya's insight that I was drawing attention to.
    Fefonz Quan: so how does that 'opportunity to work on the mind' can manifest?
    Stim Morane: In other words, "working on the mind" often involves training of various sorts that gentles its antics down. But there is another way: the way of insight re codependence.
    Stim Morane: That by itself can actually lead the mind to stop holding entrenched attitudes and feelings etc.
    Lubna Kuhn: I not speack english, sorry
    Fefonz Quan: So is there something we should focus on when practicing codependaent arising?
    Stim Morane: Just see the fact that things, people, situations etc that seem a certain way to us are actually exactly that--seemings involving a certain sort of mind, sense of self, etc.
    Pila Mulligan: 1234567890-=QWERTYUIOP[]\ASDFGHJKL;'
    Mickorod Renard: I would guess something triggers this need to ,,,re-evaluate life,,or at least ones attitudes to life?
    Pila Mulligan: and in caps no less
    Pila Mulligan: sorry
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: I would say that people sufer nd want it to change, Mick, but that isn;t very original
    Fefonz Quan: suffer and*
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I guess that was how I changed
    Mickorod Renard: what I thought was so right and so important became valueless
    Fefonz Quan: Stim, teh way our attitude change what we see has some levels, it is quite easy to see on the psychological level
    Fefonz Quan: but can you say something about more basic levels?
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Ara :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
    Qt Core: Hi Ara
    sophia Placebo: hi ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Ara
    Stim Morane: In contemplative traditions it is not some common to start with investigating codependent arising, making that one’s main approach. It’s more common to work on “taming” the mind, redirecting it, stabilizing, etc.
    Stim Morane: There are even masters who have argued this latter has to be the main training for a considerable while. But some people naturally start with the other approach.
    Stim Morane: And that "insight" emphasis, especially re this issue of codependence, is hard to chart or plan. It seems to involve different things for diff people.
    Stim Morane: So my answer is: start where you can.
    Fefonz Quan: well we can humbly 'Play as' we got some stabilizatin methods, and then we would like to here about the other approach
    Fefonz Quan: hear*
    Stim Morane: Yeah ... well, if something comes to mind, I'll jump in again.
    Stim Morane: Really, you could just be walking down the street and suddenly see an example in your own life.
    Stim Morane: That's usually the way it works.
    Stim Morane: But some things help: like being angry, for instance. I take it you would consider that a "psychologycal" example?
    Stim Morane: *psychological
    Fefonz Quan: yes sure
    Stim Morane: the scope of the exploration is both unpredictable and vast.
    Fefonz Quan: and yes, it totally changes ethe whole world, even the facts look different when angry
    Fefonz Quan: (not to mention the imagined facts ;-))
    arabella Ella: apologies for being late - and apologies if this has already been discussed - but I think it would be great Stim if you could expand on 'taming the mind' please?
    Stim Morane: It encompases things like time (temporal reference) in general, or personaly history-time in particular, existence, many things.
    Stim Morane: *personal history
    Stim Morane: really, EVERYTHING that's a thing involves codependent arising.
    Stim Morane: That is what is to be seen.
    Fefonz Quan: what do you mean by personal history-time and it's effect? can you give an example?
    Mickorod Renard: please Stim
    Gaya Ethaniel: I added "treat myself as I'd like to treat others." to my pile as a result :)
    Stim Morane: Your own personal history is not one thing but many!
    Fefonz Quan: ??
    Stim Morane: What it seems to be to you depends (!) on how you're feeling at a given time, what you're concerned with, etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stim you are lucky we donn't live near you :P
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Stim Morane: ?
    Fefonz Quan: was wondering about the many, surely there ar many detrails in my history,
    Stim Morane: I'm lucky I live where I do, but I would feel equally lucky if you were here too.
    Fefonz Quan: but you didn't mean that
    Gaya Ethaniel: You'd be 'innundated' by us.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry a bad joke...
    Stim Morane: :)
    arabella Ella: do you mean many perspectives of our personal histories Stim depending on our present state of mind?
    Stim Morane: "the past" is constantly being edited and framed and assessed depending (!) on how we're feeling, etc etc
    Stim Morane: This is only one example.
    arabella Ella nods
    Mickorod Renard: I can relate in myself to what u refer to re personal history Stim,,
    Fefonz Quan: but if i have some pictures or records of the past, does it make it more solid?
    Stim Morane: Everything ultimately points back to the massive involvement of the mind, and the mind itself is codependent thing too!
    Stim Morane: So everything is somewhat of this nature, and can be relaxed or "worked with" based on this insight.
    Mickorod Renard: that codependant thing isnt so clear in my head?
    arabella Ella: yes our experiences continually alter each of our own personal histories as do our interactions with others
    Fefonz Quan: i guess you refer to the 'remembered past' Stim
    Stim Morane: No, it's a hard topic, Mick. But the funny and good thing is that we do from time to time have insights about it.
    Stim Morane: Yes, Fefonz, the remembered time. But really any time of "past" involves the mind in order to become something for us.
    Mickorod Renard: or maybe our perspective on our history alters,,thus painting a diferent picture
    Stim Morane: Yes.
    sophia Placebo: i need to go , bye all
    Fefonz Quan: so how do you "work with" that notion?
    Stim Morane: Speaking of time ...
    arabella Ella: if i may give it a co - by codependent you mean due to the fact that we interact with nature and with other beings
    Stim Morane: Yes, I do too ...
    Fefonz Quan: bye sopiha
    Stim Morane: arabella, that's one type of codependence, yes. But there are others that probably matter more to contemplative practice.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye everyone. Enjoy your day/evening.
    Wol Euler: bye gayabunny, take care
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Gaya, Nice rabbit :)
    arabella Ella: (bye gaya sophia)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty you too Wol :)
    Tarmel Udimo: what are those others Stim?
    Stim Morane: Tarmel, We can try this again later, perhaps .. ?
    Tarmel Udimo: sure
    Stim Morane: THanks, everyone! Bye!
    arabella Ella: could another be me with myself?
    arabella Ella: codependence
    Tarmel Udimo: I need to head to the play workshop folks
    Stim Morane: Sure, why not?
    Pila Mulligan: bye Stim, thnk you :)
    Stim Morane: I mean, yes, arabella.
    Tarmel Udimo: so I will see you all later!
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Stim, really hope you can elaborate later about dependant arising
    Mickorod Renard: bye stim
    Wol Euler: bye stim, tarmel, take care
    arabella Ella: bye Stim Tarmel
    Stim Morane: bye everyone!
    Tarmel Udimo: bye all
    Stim Morane: thanks.
    Qt Core: have to go, bye all
    Fefonz Quan: i feel it have everything to do with Being, time, and appearances and what we all practice here
    Mickorod Renard: bye QT
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye QT
    Wol Euler: ciao qt
    Fefonz Quan: bye Qt
    arabella Ella: ciao Qt
    Pila Mulligan:
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I feel it all ties together
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, yes Fefonz, but it also has a lot to do with emptiness
    Mickorod Renard: whats that Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: "The doctrine of pratītyasamutpāda (Sanskrit; Pali: paticcasamuppāda; Tibetan: rten.cing.'brel.bar.'byung.ba; Chinese: 緣起), often translated as "dependent arising," is a cardinal doctrine within Buddhist Philosophy.[1][2][3] Common to all schools of Buddhism, it states that phenomena arise together in a mutually interdependent web of cause and effect. It is variously rendered into English as "dependent origination", "conditioned genesis", "dependent co-arising", "interdependent arising", or "contingency"."
    Fefonz Quan: sure, just forgot to put that in,
    Fefonz Quan: yes pila, but that issue has much more to it than dictionary or wiki issue
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou Pila
    arabella Ella: interesting
    arabella Ella: ty
    Pila Mulligan: just a strating point -- wiki is wiki of course
    arabella Ella: so it sounds that coarising is a result of the tapestry of events and of cause and effect which link everything that is, all Being, together
    Fefonz Quan: and since it is connected to emptiness and Scathach has mentioned (and what is emptiness if not realizing Being), i find it one of the most fascinating and important issuies,
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Mickorod Renard: I grasp more yet feel more lost
    Fefonz Quan: so it is a little frustrating that everytime this subject arise (hehe), Stim dodges it like a master in Tai-Chi :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    arabella Ella smiles
    Wol Euler: pure coincidence :)
    Fefonz Quan: and seriously i feeel that it might hold some of the main keys to grasp Being and emptinness
    arabella Ella: and Mick I personally feel that grasping something yet feeling lost is a necessary element of learning curve
    Mickorod Renard: I cant aggree more Fef
    Mickorod Renard: maybe Ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: have you read any buddhist texts on the subject?
    arabella Ella: are there any you would recommend Scath?
    Mickorod Renard: I havnt,,but I may try and get Stms book,,WOK
    Fefonz Quan: i have read any. it also came up in the retreat i've been in last weekend
    Scathach Rhiadra: I would have to have a look and get back to you, but I will
    arabella Ella: could you tell us more Fefonz please
    arabella Ella: thanks Scath
    Mickorod Renard: and also the guy with no head,,or something like that
    Fefonz Quan: (about what ara? maybe Scath can tell us moe?)
    Fefonz Quan: more*
    arabella Ella: about what you learnt or experienced during the retreat last week?
    Pila Mulligan: just looking through the wiki, it seems there are different doctrines on the subject among various schools of Buddhism (is that not a common with doctrines?)
    Scathach Rhiadra: um, no don't think so:)
    Fefonz Quan: ah, it was a great experience, mainly because it was in the tibetian buddhist tradition that i am less femiliar with
    Fefonz Quan: familiar*
    arabella Ella: sounds intruiging
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, pplease tell us more
    Mickorod Renard: what did you get up too?
    arabella Ella: what do you feel you learnt?
    arabella Ella: did you have to be silent for a few days?
    Fefonz Quan: It was a festival of teh Kadampa tradition in north-America,
    arabella Ella: what do you feel are the main benefits?
    Scathach Rhiadra: um the New Kadampas?
    arabella Ella: ... I could go on ... excuse the many curious questions
    Fefonz Quan: no, no silence, in fact i found that it was for lazy practitioners in a way :)
    Fefonz Quan: i don't know the different between new and old Scath
    arabella Ella smiles at the idea of lazy practitioners ... ehrm
    Scathach Rhiadra: NKT?
    Fefonz Quan: yep
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, same as Storm:)
    Fefonz Quan: but lazy only in aspects of long breaks, no silence, and not many long meditatin sittings
    arabella Ella: the very idea of 'lazy' makes it sound as though you could sleep all day long :)
    Fefonz Quan: on other aspects, they take the tradition and practice very seriously
    arabella Ella: (joking of course)
    Fefonz Quan: (well ara, in Vipassana retreats peple are awake at 4:30 am and meditate almost all day long)
    Mickorod Renard: its modern Kadamper that i am doing this coming Saturday
    arabella Ella: owwwww 4.30am ... ouch
    Fefonz Quan: but there where meditations of visualizing yourself as a buddha and those kkinds of things, very interesting in fact), and the teacher was great, very profound and detailed, and have a great sense of humor too (being a british, i guess ;-))
    Pila Mulligan: it seesm to be continuing today also, Fefonz --
    http://kadampafestivalus.org/welcome.html -- says it ends tomorrow
    Pila Mulligan: looks like a beautiful facility
    Fefonz Quan: well today and tomorrow is a small retreat that folllows it, and my wife had to come back to work Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: beautiful indeed
    Mickorod Renard: nice
    Fefonz Quan: they have some axioms that i find hard to feel, like incarnations etc., but many other issues like emptinees are very correlated with what we do here
    Fefonz Quan: (infact some examples they gave reminded me of Pema describing Being :-))
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Mickorod Renard: cool,,do they call being by another name?
    Fefonz Quan: they don't discuss Being. They talk about emptiness of all phenomena
    arabella Ella: and do they provide examples of emptiness of all phenomena?
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,ty
    Fefonz Quan: so concerning examples i had some hesitatins. i can describe one
    arabella Ella: yes pls
    Fefonz Quan: take a car for example. then try to see where the 'car' is
    arabella Ella: mmmm
    arabella Ella: must be a catch there ... in the language?
    Fefonz Quan: if i ask you where is the car, you point your finger, but infact you pont to the wheel, door, seats etc.
    arabella Ella nods
    Fefonz Quan: so the car is a collection of things.
    Fefonz Quan: but then, each of the things is not a car by itself. moreover, if i take anyone of those things, the car is still a car
    Fefonz Quan: so it is not in any of the parts either.
    Fefonz Quan: hence the car has no Inherent existance,
    arabella Ella: reminds me of some philosophical examples, Quine's 'rabbit' and 'identity' with the boat which had its planks changed one by one
    Wol Euler: ... and therefore it is safe to sleep on the highway!
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: and therefore is a dependent arising:)
    Mickorod Renard: this is where I am going on Saturday:-http://www.taracentre.org.uk/ashe_hall.shtml
    Fefonz Quan: well, since the 'I" has no inherent existance too, thus it is empty, wht will be harmed Wol ;-)
    arabella Ella: cool Mick
    Fefonz Quan: (but surely this is a wrong view)
    arabella Ella: in philosophy ... rather than using the word being or existence for such examples
    arabella Ella: we use the word 'self' or 'identity'
    arabella Ella: but the examples sound very similar
    arabella Ella: which is interesting
    Fefonz Quan: So i also didn't buy to all the logic, i so agree that what we see and comprehend about the world
    Fefonz Quan: is not simply existing by itself, surely not from teh meaning side.
    Fefonz Quan: yes ara, it sound similar.
    Fefonz Quan: (take in mind this is 2000 years old buddhits phylo, though they didn;t have cars then ;-))
    arabella Ella: i think it was Hume who also used the phrase 'bundles of perceptions' or 'bundles of ideas' which in composite would make up for example a cat or a car
    arabella Ella: (cant remember his exact words right now)
    Mickorod Renard: that makes sense Ara
    Fefonz Quan: yes, so although they didn't say it directly, i think they point out to say that the car exist codependantly with my mind grasping it, as well as with other factors
    Mickorod Renard: and we can apply that to everything
    Fefonz Quan: then there is some logical leap, concluding that in a way the car, and hence all phenomena, don't exist as independent entities
    arabella Ella: also cultural and linguistic factors though ... as people who for example have never seen say a particular type of animal would just have the basic impression 'four legged furry creature'
    Fefonz Quan: right ara, though there is something about linguistic issue here.
    Fefonz Quan: your furry creature is still a define d'thing' no matter how you call it
    Mickorod Renard: and a person Fef,,is a person an independant entity,,or composite from its history?
    Scathach Rhiadra: or your perception of the car does not exist as independent entity
    Mickorod Renard: ok folks,,gotta go home
    Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
    Fefonz Quan: the person is also empty surely Mick
    Wol Euler: bye mick, take care
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Mick
    Fefonz Quan: not to mention your 'self' grasping it
    Mickorod Renard: bye everyone,,thanks for a nice chat
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Mick
    arabella Ella: nite everyone ... i must go now too ... thanks!
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ara
    Pila Mulligan: bye arabella
    Wol Euler: bye ara!
    Fefonz Quan: So i ahve some difficulties with that leap,...
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Ara!
    Fefonz Quan: have*
    Pila Mulligan: nice leap there Fef
    Pila Mulligan: to the cushion
    Fefonz Quan: yes, fefonz's avatar has no independent self
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I have one book title you might like to read, a (relatively) small book...
    Scathach Rhiadra: Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinposhe
    Scathach Rhiadra: Rinpoche*
    Fefonz Quan: just got it three weeks ago Scath, it really looked good
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)
    Fefonz Quan: did you read/practice it?
    Wol Euler: ha! coincidence?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes it is one of my favorites
    Fefonz Quan: no, one of Pema's guessed recommended me Wol :)
    Wol Euler: ah:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: doesn't go too deep into the logic
    Scathach Rhiadra: and gives nice practice meditations
    Scathach Rhiadra: Tibetan logic can be very um, dense, so to speak
    Scathach Rhiadra: have you read it yet?
    Fefonz Quan: no, not yet
    Fefonz Quan: what is dense (in taht sense?)
    Scathach Rhiadra: very convuluted, maybe
    Fefonz Quan: ok, convolutaed doesn't frighten me :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: very anaylitical
    Pila Mulligan steps away to take care of the laundry
    Fefonz Quan: enjoy Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wol, Scathach and Fefonz :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: well there is a great book on emptiness meditation in the Tibetan tradition by Jeffery Hopkins, over 1000 pages:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: now that is dense!
    Fefonz Quan: would you believe it is here on my desk now Scath :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: haha:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: have you read it yet?
    Fefonz Quan: no coincidense Wol :)
    Fefonz Quan: also a new Buy, i have a lot to read
    Scathach Rhiadra: I have that book for over 20 years, still haven't quite finished it:)
    Fefonz Quan: and talking about laundry, there's Jarry Hopkins's "after the extasy - the laundry"
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan:
    Scathach Rhiadra: I had better go too, see you both soon and happy reading Fefonz:)
    Wol Euler: goodnight scath
    Fefonz Quan: thanks, namaste Scath :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté
    Fefonz Quan: hoe this was not too of-topic Wol :)
    Fefonz Quan: hope*
    Wol Euler: not at all :)
    Fefonz Quan: off-*
    Wol Euler: I am no slavish follower of PaB topics :)
    Fefonz Quan: in fact i had some cases of coincident in the retreat
    Fefonz Quan: where i read something in a book in the store by the temple there, and two times just after i read it the teacher was talking about it in the next lecture
    Fefonz Quan: (and those where things i didn't know before)
    Wol Euler nods
    Fefonz Quan: So that was like some secenes from a movie...
    Fefonz Quan: scenes*
    Wol Euler: yeah, things happen sometimes that you would find absurd and unbelievable in a movie :)
    Fefonz Quan: yeah, maybe those movies don't really exist?
    Wol Euler: or Pema's favourite analogy is more true than he knows?
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i came from the retreat and thought i like the sanghe we have here in PaB
    Fefonz Quan: sangha*
    Wol Euler: what does that mean? Is is the place or the practice?
    Fefonz Quan: it is the group of practitioners, practicing together and support each other along the path
    Wol Euler: ah, I see. Well, yes, I think this is quite a nice group.
    Fefonz Quan: and i also need to catch up with four days off PaB/Kira, not to mention the scribe :)
    Wol Euler smiles and nods
    Fefonz Quan: so guess i should go to work :) guess it is late where you are
    Wol Euler: coming up to midnight, I should get to sleep
    Wol Euler: goodnight fefonz, see you tomorrow
    Fefonz Quan: good night Wol, sweet dreams

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