2009.04.29 07:00 - Placebo

The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Fefonz Quan: Hi Susi
Susi Alcott: Hi Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: brb, getting some tea
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Fefonz Quan: back
Susi Alcott: wb
Fefonz Quan: you have a box
Fefonz Quan: hey Fael :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Susi, Fefonz :)
Susi Alcott: Hi Fael
Susi Alcott: I got a present from someboyd I dont know; for being online
Susi Alcott: but the story on his note card took my attention...couldn't just close it
Fael Illyar: Hi Eos :)
Susi Alcott: but; now I'm back here
Susi Alcott: Hi Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hi all
Fefonz Quan: hi Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: fael, i got a link just after claiming the session right now, is it a new feature?
Fael Illyar: if so, it's something Wol has done.
Eos Amaterasu: I got that yesterday.... you will aalso get email with link
Fefonz Quan: well, so far the link came after the session was over, so hope it is ok
Fael Illyar: just don't be too hasty using the link :)
Fefonz Quan: (and why so fael?)
Fael Illyar: if you use it before the recording is stopped, you'll have incomplete log come up
Fefonz Quan: i see. cause i just opened the one i got now five minutes ago. it was empty so i closed it
Fael Illyar: just opening it is fine but it'll be incomplete :)
Fael Illyar: but incomplete in a way that is not necessarily very obvious.
Susi Alcott: hm (cannot hold his curiosity as ppl are speaking of technic)
Fefonz Quan: ok. just wait for the end and hope it is fine
Fael Illyar: it's fine once the recorder has stopped recording :)
Fael Illyar: maybe Wol is trying to solve the problem of people losing the link :)
Fefonz Quan: yeah, susi, i mostly get bored when people are talking teachnic :)
Fael Illyar: I thought I was talking of the practical implications of technical things?
Susi Alcott: no but there's nothing for me to say
Susi Alcott: and what I just got, is very interesting
Fefonz Quan: yes you did fael :)
Fefonz Quan: what have you got Susi?
Fael Illyar: the log on the webserver doesn't get lines in the order they're said. It gets them one person at a time, once that person has talked enough or the recording ends.
Fael Illyar: so, the incomplete logs will have some parts of some people completely missing while it will have lines from others there.
Susi Alcott: rings
Fael Illyar: if you open the link now, you can probably see the effect :)
Fefonz Quan: whyconfusing it? let it rest and we can go on here.
Fefonz Quan: are you talking RL rings or SL Susi?
Fael Illyar: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Fael, is that you circling around yourself?
Susi Alcott: nope
Fael Illyar: it's a mermaid :)
Susi Alcott: SL
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Fael Illyar: that I got this morning while fishing :)
Fefonz Quan: well, that is one successful fishing :)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Susi Alcott: see that in my finger now ?
Fefonz Quan: i see, where you had a big box before
Fael Illyar would look if you'd stop moving your hands :)
Susi Alcott: it was promised that in the box is explonation of the stone...but was not...but...well..think this is lotus flower
Fefonz Quan: hehe
Fael Illyar: nice ring :)
Susi Alcott: yes...they say it to be unic....
Susi Alcott: sry...me and my few beliefs...
Fefonz Quan: does it give you powers, like the abitlity to teleport or shape shift?
Fael Illyar: don't we all have those powers in SL?
Susi Alcott: if I let myself to believe, it gives more...
Fefonz Quan: (sure, that was the point ;-))
Susi Alcott: time shall tell as I'll contact the creator
Fefonz Quan: so what should it give Susi?
Eos Amaterasu: 15 min reminders of Being?
sophia Placebo: greetings
Susi Alcott: greeings
Fefonz Quan: Hi sophia :)
Susi Alcott: greetins sophia
Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Sophia
Susi Alcott: well..as the note card gave me a connection...
Susi Alcott: that is always a treasure; earthly level's contact to good human being
Susi Alcott: well...as many of my connections gets 'birth' this way too...
Fefonz Quan: (Eos, i got an SSL clock for that one)
Susi Alcott: but...we can drop case me now...
Susi Alcott: Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Sophia, i was wondering why dd you pick your second name, if i may ask
Fael Illyar: looks like the picture in the ring is logo for the creator's shop.
Susi Alcott: which do you prefere gold or silver ?
sophia Placebo: im not sure what is the reason
sophia Placebo: was8
Fefonz Quan: ** hehe
Fael Illyar: it's the name given by scientific community to the power of belief.
Fefonz Quan: (couldn't help myself)
Eos Amaterasu: wisdom placebo?
Fefonz Quan: yes, right fael, tht's why i asked
sophia Placebo: but i guess i thought of myself in sl as a placebo , giving good feeling without the active intervention but rather the smooth friendly one , by immeting the good that poeple have within them :") not sure if this makes sense though
Fael Illyar: It does :)
Fefonz Quan: makes sense, and inspiring too sophia
Fefonz Quan: i just thought about it last week, that people that are always full of doubts (for their doctors for example) prevent themselves the placebo effect, which i think is tens of percents sometimes
Fael Illyar: (Susi apologizes for vanishing and said he'll be right back)
sophia Placebo: i didnt know that sophia means wisdom at that time, knew it from poeple in sl who kept asking me about it . manly choose it cuz verbally it resemble my real life name which means pure
Fael Illyar: Fefonz tens of percent in statistical analysis I take it?
Fael Illyar: doesn't that measure the amount of people it affected?
Fefonz Quan: sure fael'
Fael Illyar: not the size of the effect
Fael Illyar: I wonder if anyone has ever done studies on what kind of people tend to get the placebo effect more likely than the ones who don't.
Fefonz Quan: well, if the question is "did it make your headache dissapear", you got the effect and size too
Fefonz Quan: and i also thought about the 'anti-placebo' effect
sophia Placebo: nocebo?
Fefonz Quan: (this is my definition)
Fael Illyar: ah, yes, the power of belief goes both ways :)
Fefonz Quan: ye, that some people, even when got effective medicin, it won't help them because they dont believe it will
Eos Amaterasu: As Neils Bohr said of the horseshoe above his door, it works even if you don't believe in it
Fefonz Quan: i won't be surprise if that happens too
Fefonz Quan: good one eod :)
Eos Amaterasu: (sorry, opposite of what you said)
Fael Illyar: Eos, yes, it might be enough that people around you believe it does :)
Eos Amaterasu: Mirror neurons pick up on their conviction
Fefonz Quan: so the doubter looses from both sides. it is a good demonstration of the mind effect on relity
Fael Illyar: wb Susi :=
Susi Alcott: ty
Fefonz Quan: mirror neurons Eos?
Fefonz Quan: wb sus
sophia Placebo: *:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
sophia Placebo: susi
Eos Amaterasu: the phenomenon that neurons that light up when you do something also can light up when someone else does it
Eos Amaterasu: empathy, in a way
Susi Alcott: well then; U Fael pls tell ; prefere gold or silver ?
Fael Illyar: silver
Eos Amaterasu: "Hey babe, you got my soul, You got the silver, you got the gold"
Fefonz Quan: i've heard it works better with women, did you eos?
Fefonz Quan: (i meant empathy, not gold ;-))
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, could be
Fefonz Quan: Fael, are you ok?
Fael Illyar: just floating on my flower :)
sophia Placebo: thank you susi :)
Fefonz Quan: ah. ok, cool :)
Susi Alcott: if you Fefonz answered, I lost your line...
Fael Illyar: why would I not be?
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Fefonz Quan: gold
Susi Alcott: Fael and Fefonz I let to chooce because they were here at first....as male and female...
Eos Amaterasu: thnx Susi
Eos Amaterasu: RL calling, must leave....
Eos Amaterasu: thnx, bye all
Fael Illyar: Thank you Susi :)
Fael Illyar: See you later Eos :)
sophia Placebo: bye eos
Susi Alcott: bye Eos
Fefonz Quan: bye eos
Fefonz Quan: what do i do with the ring susi?
Susi Alcott: sry for pc probs
Susi Alcott: I'll relog
Fael Illyar: Oh, I forgot this duck on my shoulder :)
Fefonz Quan: well, susi got a sense for dramatic entrance/departure :)
sophia Placebo: :))
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
Fael Illyar: wb Susi :)
Susi Alcott: ty
Susi Alcott: as you wish Fefonz
Susi Alcott: it's to transfir ; so you can give it to friend if you dont like to have it yourself
Fael Illyar is surprised, the ring fits perfectly.
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Fefonz Quan: ah no problem, just wondered if it has power apart of ringiness appearance
Susi Alcott: it has
Susi Alcott: the power of lotus
Fefonz Quan: na dhow do i activcate it?
Susi Alcott: with Your heart
Fefonz Quan: that's gonna take a long time ;-)
Susi Alcott: I'm not talking about the SL power :)
Fefonz Quan: well i was
Susi Alcott: lotus was essentially used back then in Egypt....
Susi Alcott: it's power is to ease almost anything
Susi Alcott: to me...each thing that can be the key to our mind to remember....such power...gentle love...is true power
Fefonz Quan: So the buddha's habbit to sit on a lotus is not with no reason :)
Susi Alcott: true
Susi Alcott: that is also the pose in which the energies float the most free
Fefonz Quan: I wondered if any of you experienced the placebo effeect in RL, not only medicine wise
Susi Alcott: hm...I dont understand placebo but as such 'medicine' which is no medicine, but a sugar pill or so
Fael Illyar: how would you experience it?
Susi Alcott: and I have no experiencies of such
Susi Alcott: and dont know anybody who's got such experience; only heared about such
sophia Placebo: if you think of it generally , many got the placebo effect , it is like looking into the cloud and seeing nothing unless someone tell you that there is the horse head
Fefonz Quan: well Susi, the effect is that although there is no physical cause for the sure, it still happens because you believe it
Fael Illyar: susi might have been gone by the time I said that "placebo is the name scientific community has given to the power of belief"
Susi Alcott: I know that; but only for 'other hand hearing'
Susi Alcott: ah yes; belief is very strong medicine
Susi Alcott: but also that can heal only symptoms, in case the belief is not based on the truth
Fefonz Quan: yes sophia, although in the cloud example there is no benefit gained, just an image.
Fefonz Quan: well susi, the placebo effect sys the opposite from what you say:
Fefonz Quan: it says that soe people taht got the sugar pills DID recover like the ones got the real medicine
Fefonz Quan: says*
Fefonz Quan: some*
Susi Alcott: yes; there symptoms...
Fefonz Quan: no, the disease
Susi Alcott: but...well..try to kill ebola virus with a sugar pill...
sophia Placebo: or thought they recover or they give up the idea that they are sick :)
Fael Illyar: (there were given sugar pills but not told if it was just sugar or the medicine)
Fael Illyar: others got the medicine
Fefonz Quan: well, since it is used in most of the testings of new medicines, i wouldn't take it lightly
Susi Alcott: well,,,we all know what we have heared,,,but we think differently about them symptoms...I assume....
Susi Alcott: so surely I had heared the same you told now; just said that I have no own experiencies or know anybody whos' got such
sophia Placebo: when you give someone medicine and he recover you must make sure that this effect is due medicine not due to the natural course of diseas , much like common cold which is a self limiting dises but somepoeple take antibiotic and think that this cure them
Susi Alcott: but..in a way, many people could take me to be such ' placebo pill'...
Fael Illyar: (and who's to say the belief doesn't end up based on the truth in many cases?)
Susi Alcott: well...as I have never given any medicine, but 'me' and some such stuff which is not bought from the pharmacy
sophia Placebo: so if some drug has a similar result as placebo effect that means that it s not effective and the symptomes resolve as natural courese of the diseas
Susi Alcott: well,,,at least I have not said so
Susi Alcott: but...well...why might it be that I feel again that I'm here as inteviewed....
Susi Alcott: and am wondering why...
Fefonz Quan: i agree sophia, but with some addition: if it was just like you said, it wasn't so important NOT to tell the participants who got the real drug and who didn't. the fact that it is crucial not to tell them, shows that the personal believe haas a strong effect, above the 'natural course' of the disease
sophia Placebo: but some patient personality is pathologic in itself and no organic pathology present in his body , many of those benifit from the placebo when the problem is in their head
Fael Illyar thought the topic is placebo, not Susi...
Susi Alcott: well...maybe I read too much such as 'you'...
Fefonz Quan: well, i believ in many cases the improvement parameters are blood tests, levels of fever etc, which are not so subjective
sophia Placebo: true fef , mostly not to tell the oparticipant so there would be no bias and extraworries from both sides-even the doctor dont know who get the placebo
Fael Illyar: ah, yes, 'you' often means anyone.
Fefonz Quan: yes Fael, no english terms for 'Vous' in freach
Fefonz Quan: french*
Fael Illyar: you might replace it with 'one' but it feels more unnatural and is much less used.
Susi Alcott: (one/anyone/person)
Fefonz Quan: yes sophia, agree about the double-blind procedure
sophia Placebo: i must add fef that i belive that thoughts sometime affect the body badly :)
Susi Alcott: as well the good way
sophia Placebo: true
Susi Alcott: agree with sophia too
Fefonz Quan: i agree too, but that leads to the possibility that they can affect the body positively :)
Susi Alcott: there was an interview in Finland TV, as the scientist had found that truth, that people can heal themselves with thoghts
Fefonz Quan: btw - do you have an example sophia?
Fefonz Quan: (only if you can tell)
Susi Alcott: and the lady who was the reported, had got the whole thruth and aksed if one can also hurt one's body with thoughts
Susi Alcott: but the scinetist said 'no'
Susi Alcott: I was sad that this lady didnt' ask him why he claims so...
Susi Alcott: as that is only logical to me...
sophia Placebo: very common example is the blood sugar level, naturally we got a rise in our blood sugar during stress -emotional as well as physical and some diebetic patient got a sharp and lethal rise sometimes
sophia Placebo: and the other common example is depression , where all your body feels heavy and painfull everywhere
Fefonz Quan: i agree. though depression is in a way physical illness
sophia Placebo: though there are some extraordinary examples but i cant recall one now
Susi Alcott: bloodpressure is also such thing that im strong opinion has been more medicine makers 'modest' than anything else
Susi Alcott: as the matter in fact is that the medicine for that illness is like amfetamin; 'kills' much motions
Fefonz Quan: (we are in silence susi :))
Susi Alcott: as the better medicine would be to tell to oneself, that there's no threat at the moment to me, so I can let myself to rest and calm down
Susi Alcott: hm:::as I read both; your and sopihias lines after the bell, I thought you dont want to be in silence; sry
Fefonz Quan: just some delay with responses posted...
Fael Illyar: I've been hinted to a few times that my blood pressure might be a bit below the level it ought to be.
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
sophia Placebo: true fef re depression, but if you will trace back all diseases almost all are physical in molecular level , but think of thoughts as stimulators to good molicules or the unwanted molicules or chemicals
Fael Illyar: although, no doctors opinion on that.
Fael Illyar: yes, thoughts affect the balance of the chemical reactions that happen in the body.
Fael Illyar: or perhaps beliefs is the better way to put it.
sophia Placebo: good for you feal :) , mine too is always in the lower limit, hope to stay there as long as possible
Fefonz Quan: yes, last weekend i was in a retreat, and got stung by a tick. since some of them carry dangerous desease, i went to the emergency room to take care of it.
Susi Alcott: well; even that scientis in TV spoke the same, and it's long time ago, and I know many such doctors too who think the same, but they cannot speak out for the 'official line'
Fefonz Quan: when they took my blood pressure, it was very low, mainly compared to my regular one.
Fefonz Quan: so i told the docor: what did you expect after 3 days of meditation ?
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Fael Illyar smiles.
sophia Placebo: :) great fef
Susi Alcott: I once went to the nurce to measure my bloodpressure while giving healing
Fefonz Quan: (and that was when the tick is still on my leg...)
Susi Alcott: in few minutes if rose about 10 degrees
Fefonz Quan: yes, a little pressure and it goes high for me
Susi Alcott: the nurse would've let me to measure her's , but I didn't know enough how to do that so I let that remain unknown to me
sophia Placebo: i better be off , see you all later :)
Fael Illyar: See you later sophia :)
Susi Alcott: that's why I think that threre soo much 'advertizings' also what comes to the bloodpressure....and to start to eat medicine for that
Susi Alcott: see you later sophia
Fefonz Quan: Bye Sophia, :)
Fael Illyar: yes, no money in telling people they can treat that by relaxing more
Susi Alcott: specially because the effect of the used medicines is what it is
Fefonz Quan: yes, the whole economy cancolapse (again :)) if people will be more relaxed and consume less drugs and less junk food and less other products... that should be awful1 ;-)
Susi Alcott: hm...to whom ?
Fael Illyar: to the people with money ... and the people working there who'd be out of work.
Fefonz Quan: to the big guys that makes a lot of money from all that consumerism
Susi Alcott: ah; they could start to sell them better medicines; finance the publick teaching and so...a
Fael Illyar: they'd still make less money that way. That's why they aren't doing it already.
Susi Alcott: as they now use the money to adertize and test drugs...to which there's is already found better medicines
Fefonz Quan: indeed Fael
Susi Alcott: would they ?
Susi Alcott: or is that only belief ..
Fael Illyar: of course, if they actually healed people, who'd buy their medicines?
Susi Alcott: ah; there's line of ppl who dont get treatment today...dont even get to the doctor....
Susi Alcott: so...patients wouldn'd end for long long time...
Fael Illyar: people with money to pay?
Susi Alcott: that too
Fefonz Quan: i'll have to go too, hope the link will get to my email (till now i stayed inworld and got it).
Susi Alcott: or insurence companies or some healt system
Fefonz Quan: Bye Fael, Susi
Fael Illyar: See you later Fefonz :)
Susi Alcott: bye Fefonz
Susi Alcott: I also need to complete something we 'started' in the morning
Susi Alcott: see you Fael soon
Fael Illyar: unfortunately, there is more money to be made keeping people sick and only treating the symptoms. That keeps the people buing the medicine over and over again.
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later :)
Susi Alcott: I agree you 130 %; but still I take that there wouldn't be any reason to such belief, that they would loose much money for changing there way :)
Fael Illyar: (as long as there's no medicine available that actually works that is)
Fael Illyar: but yes, see you later :)
Susi Alcott: _/!\_