2009.04.29 13:00 - welcoming it, feeling it, being it

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    The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

    Pila Mulligan: hi genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pila
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Corvi
    genesis Zhangsun: wow you got tan and blond corvi :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi, Mick and Fefonz
    Corvuscorva Nightfire pants as she reaches her goal..."sorry, i was avign trouble getting home from owrk on thime
    genesis Zhangsun: must be the sun :)
    Pila Mulligan: looks like she went to the beach
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all!
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Pila,,hi Fef , corv,gen
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Gen..yeah.that's it..
    Fefonz Quan: Hi All!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Fefonz
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Mick
    Pila Mulligan: any rl retreat ideas?
    genesis Zhangsun: everyone is very quiet
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Fefonz, Mick, Gen...Pila and I are here to talk about the possibility of
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the Play As Being retreat facility
    Pila Mulligan: still silence :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for 15 minutes
    Pila Mulligan: a quiet facility must be the answer
    Mickorod Renard: I would love to stay at a PaB facility
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Fefonz Quan ponders how would people get there once aday like in SL...
    Pila Mulligan: wouold do oyu imagie it would be like Mick?
    Pila Mulligan: what*
    Fefonz Quan: a day*
    Mickorod Renard: I would gues,,somewhere where I could escape all the usual distractions,,and then find guidance in finding that elusive enlightenment
    Pila Mulligan: Fefonz, it ouwld not be a daily thing
    Pila Mulligan: except for people nearby
    Pila Mulligan: so it *would* be a quiet place in tour image, Mick
    Pila Mulligan: your*
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,although it would be nice to have a laugh and joke with like minded people
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i would figure according to the current divercity, even nearby one hour flight there are less then 5 PaBer in any given spot on the globe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
    Pila Mulligan: yes yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like the idea of the laughing with like minded people.
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and the co teaching piece I heard in your vision?
    Mickorod Renard: there is always a risk that some folk want to be too serious
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: though..this group...
    Fefonz Quan: no, how can that be...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Fefonz.."one of the thing that makes PaB work for me..is that there is a culture of taking this journey lightly.
    Mickorod Renard: I think this is all very important,,but also happiness is something central to our needs too
    Fefonz Quan: in this group they short enough get seriously cushioned ;-)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs at Fefonz. "surely not!"
    Pila Mulligan regrets the need to leave to deal with some real life matters now
    Corvuscorva Nightfire ticks on the list....it's important that there be spare cushions for tossing.
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Pila :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Pila!
    Mickorod Renard: I think I would be very self concious in meeting members in RL
    Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi, gen, Mick and Fef
    Mickorod Renard: bye Pila
    Fefonz Quan: COrvi, as a leader of the RL retreat site, are you going to be at the RL retreat that august?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: unfortunately, I can't. I'd really like to, though.
    Fefonz Quan: :-?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: limited travel budget.
    Fefonz Quan: (fefonz don't know the emoticon to express a slight dissapiontment :))
    Fefonz Quan: are you euro-based?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no, East coast
    Mickorod Renard: Corv,,what would you invisage the routine at a retreat?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't have a vision, part of the idea of talking like this is to consider what that might look like.
    Fefonz Quan: i see.
    Fefonz Quan: how do you imagine it geograpohically?
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Arabella
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Ara
    Mickorod Renard: I will be spending my first whole day at a budhist centre this saturday
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Ara
    Fefonz Quan: (i did three days last weekend)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Again..most definitely up for discussion. Hawaii was a spark in Pema's mind for a bit, and those of us in the US, certainly have some ideas about where in the US it could be..but....it could be anywhere.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi, Ara
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wow, Mick, Fefonz
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I wonder if there are things about those retreats that are interesting/important to you...the 15 minutes is up..so...talk freely!
    Fefonz Quan: (i had something to say about that concerning lightness, but this is offtopic maybe)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..no..talk about that.
    arabella Ella: Hiya Corv
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
    Fefonz Quan: and small minds forget the caps lock ;-)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehehe
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: there are many most interesting things there, very connected to what we explore here
    Corvuscorva Nightfire tilts her head in interest
    arabella Ella listens attentivly
    Fefonz Quan: starting with the causes to our suffering in this world, and seeing them as internal causes,
    Fefonz Quan: created by our minds and the we we see the world, other, and ourselves
    arabella Ella: is suffering always due to internal causes u think?
    Fefonz Quan: (i was going to go on to emptiness, but we can discuss suffering first :))
    arabella Ella: yes pls if u dont mind
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Fefonz Quan: i feel i should just finish what i started to say: then they go to more profound and redical principles like impermanence, dependant arising, no-self and emptiness, which i think are almost identical to what we talk about in PaB, although using differnt language sometimes
    arabella Ella: as u prefer
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Wol
    Fefonz Quan: sorry, didn't see you responses while writing, but i guess i answered now corvi's question more fully :)
    Wol Euler tiptoes in, whispers "Sorry I'm, late"
    Fefonz Quan: Heya Wol :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    genesis Zhangsun: what a beautiful outfit :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Wol
    Wol Euler: thank you! on sale!! only 260$
    Fefonz Quan: Ara, buddhists would surely say that suffering comes from our concepts and the way we percieve the world and act accordingly
    arabella Ella: but Fefonz if i may ask
    arabella Ella: if someone is ill
    Fefonz Quan: But there should be some clarification about what suffering is, in order to discuss it. Main thing would be to see that pain and suffering are not the same
    arabella Ella: and suffering
    arabella Ella: aren't the other family carers suffering too as a result of external causes?
    arabella Ella: (scuse my ignorance)
    Fefonz Quan: no at all Ara
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not yours alone, Ara
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Yoshi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mine, too.
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Tenzin
    Fefonz Quan: buddhist would not define the pain itself as suffering, but our eraction to it, fear, anger and inability to endure it, as suffering
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Tenzin
    Fefonz Quan: reaction*
    Wol Euler: hello tenzin
    Fefonz Quan: does it make sense?
    arabella Ella: not just that though Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: /listens
    arabella Ella: there is also the stress that caring for someone who one cares for who is ill brings along with it
    arabella Ella: the compassion ... the added tasks etc
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes.
    arabella Ella: the suffering in seeing a loved one in pain
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: those things are not easy.
    Fefonz Quan: right, stress might surely be a candidate for suffering
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: those things are hard, painful.
    Mickorod Renard: how can we feel love and compassion without exposing ourselves to suffering inside our hearts?
    Fefonz Quan: again, Corvi, things can be painful, but that does not mean suffering in that sense.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i am not sure about the concept of suffering..except how i'm learning about thse things in my own life.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..
    Fefonz Quan: i can have an example from daily life.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what seems important to me about this is that i not think that i am bad for suffering, for not taking real pain lightly
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: instead..be relieved anytime I can talke my own pain with a little less...attachment.
    Fefonz Quan: (didnt understand what you just said corvi)
    arabella Ella: and what i am trying to say is that altho for personal pain one can learn to overcome suffering through 'mind over matter' and attitude, however ...
    arabella Ella: when it comes to pain suffered by the ones we love ... it is another matter cos ...
    Fefonz Quan: yes, corvi, attachment is a major cause for suffering
    arabella Ella: we suffer for them and their pain causes us to suffer ... as external cause
    Fefonz Quan: well, if a stone hits me and i am in pain it is also external cause Ara.
    arabella Ella: but you can take on an attidue of mind over matter where your own pain is concerned Fefonz but not where the pain of others is concerned
    genesis Zhangsun: but do they ask you to suffer ara?
    Mickorod Renard: I must admit. that I am not too worried about feeling pain in respect to others ,,say being sick or whatever,,,but I hope that my feelings will eleiviate some from them
    Fefonz Quan: agree with gen. infact in order to help the ones we love, we should do other things than suffer
    arabella Ella: IMHO ... if u see someone you love in terrible pain ... then you suffer ... and caring for them can cause stress and more suffering
    genesis Zhangsun: it could
    Fefonz Quan: thus you see that this suffering is not doing good not for you nor for the loved one Ara
    arabella Ella: how can it be overcome u think?
    Mickorod Renard: there is a risk of perpetuating a circle
    genesis Zhangsun: life is short ara as we all know, what if you spend you time with someone dying suffering rather than enjoying and celebrating their last breaths
    genesis Zhangsun: or for someone chronically ill, do they want us to cry for them or make them laugh?
    genesis Zhangsun: it is not easy issue
    Fefonz Quan: amen for this Genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: I am not saying that is easy
    arabella Ella: however much we make them laugh or enjoy their smile or their last breath ... that is surface ... and our heart cries out for their pain
    Fefonz Quan: yes, easy is in the next worksho ;-)
    arabella Ella: in compassion
    Fefonz Quan: p*
    genesis Zhangsun: but suffering for them may not be the best option
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there is the very real issue of you gotta do whatcha gotta do.
    genesis Zhangsun: in the given situation
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which is stressful, too.
    Fefonz Quan: why is it stressful Corvi?
    genesis Zhangsun: I always think of suffering as an attempt to escape pain
    genesis Zhangsun: rather than to be with it
    Fefonz Quan: yes, deniying the pain even
    arabella Ella: an example would be a parent caring for a child with a terminal illness ... however brave a face the parent may put on suffering cannot be avoided for the parent
    genesis Zhangsun: it is not easy to be with it but it is even more painful to try to escape it
    Mickorod Renard: many that face death or serious problems are often very brave ,,beyond our normal comprehension,,,we must take their lead
    genesis Zhangsun: yes arabella that is a difficult situation
    arabella Ella: but the bravery is often external face to the world
    Fefonz Quan: Ara, surely we are not talking about simple to implement issues, and teh more extreme examples you bring it is harder to deal with
    arabella Ella nods
    Fefonz Quan: So i personally prefer working with smaller things before getting to the big ones
    genesis Zhangsun: I once heard a parent who lost her child says that the point of a child's life is not to become an adult
    Tenzin Xue: We become attached to the feeling of painlessness when we feel pain. Attachment to painlessness causes suffering.
    genesis Zhangsun: the point of child's life is to be a child
    genesis Zhangsun: for however long that is
    Fefonz Quan: Another important thing ara i think is the practice to accept things as they are
    Fefonz Quan: life will neccesary include joy and pain, happiness and saddness
    Mickorod Renard: often our pain is about our loss,,not that that the one suffering is about to encounter
    arabella Ella: yes i have nothing against acceptance ... one can accept the way things turn out and still suffer internally while being brave externally ... but one's heart feel's all squezzed
    Fefonz Quan nods to mick.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes often we are crying for ourselves rather than the person
    genesis Zhangsun: who suffers
    genesis Zhangsun: we suffer watching suffering
    Fefonz Quan: yes, there is the story of the first and second arrow
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    arabella Ella: loss ... and a feeling of .... frustration ... that there is nothing one can do to relieve the pain of the other except to be cheerful and make the other smile when possible
    Fefonz Quan: sometimes we get hit by an arrow - this is inevitable. but then we shout at outselves many other arrows - anger, fear, not accepting the first one and wanting it to vanish, self pity etc.
    Fefonz Quan: you say except as thses are small thing, but they are big things, encourage suffer ones
    Fefonz Quan: (for ara)
    arabella Ella: yes true ... what i mean is there is no more than that ... but one wants ... wishes ... to do more
    Fefonz Quan: yes. i agree, and we all know those feelings i believ
    arabella Ella nods
    Fefonz Quan: even if we talk of methods to overcome it, i don't say that they are easy, and i guess all of us are just beginners (at eastr fefonz ;-0)
    Fefonz Quan: at leat*
    arabella Ella: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: it takes practice
    Mickorod Renard: some things seem inevitable,,and in cases like that,,we have to find resolve in our own heart
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm gonna go out on a limb from my ignorance.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and say that i heard something in what Gen said that has startd to be important to me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that instead of trying to stuff pain or be brave i'm looking at it like intrusive thoughts in meditation.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: welcoming it, feeling it, being it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: until it is gone.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: when...of course...i can bear it.
    arabella Ella: yes
    genesis Zhangsun: that is well put Corvi
    genesis Zhangsun: and hence why practice is necessary
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Steve
    genesis Zhangsun: it is hard enough to do all that will small things that bother us in life
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
    genesis Zhangsun: to be ready for the bigger things...
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello, forget it's Wednesday
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Steve
    arabella Ella: Hiya Steve
    Fefonz Quan: [13:54] Corvuscorva Nightfire: welcoming it, feeling it, being it.
    genesis Zhangsun: but I think pratice doesn't necessarily have to mean sitting practice
    Fefonz Quan: this is well written i think
    genesis Zhangsun: it can mean just being attentive and seeing your life
    arabella Ella: what alternatives would you suggest gen?
    genesis Zhangsun: and learning from it
    arabella Ella: oh
    Fefonz Quan: i agree, walking practice is very good i find, and also daily life practice
    genesis Zhangsun: everything in theory could be an opportunity for practice
    Wol Euler: hello steve
    Fefonz Quan: hey steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Wol
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves to everyone
    stevenaia Michinaga: being careful to rezz before I sit on someone
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: and yet it is easy to start sitting, in less noisy environment, like when you start driving lessons you don't practice on teh highway
    genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed
    genesis Zhangsun: but one should also not get stuck in the parking lot
    genesis Zhangsun: ;)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sometimes, though..ya gotta learn to drive in the big city.
    Fefonz Quan: (or in the parkway? ;-0)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and get little chance to practice before you're going 60 in traffic.
    genesis Zhangsun: I think often there is a danger in sitting practice
    Mickorod Renard: I have noticed that we all have to deal with our particular issues in life..I call them our crosses we bear,,yet I also see that whoever is in overall power of the universe has an uncanny way of choosing the right way of showing us the way
    genesis Zhangsun: that you need "ideal" conditions for practice
    Fefonz Quan: i agree gen. although, when you are mindful, you find som many distraction just sitting
    arabella Ella: what do you consider as 'ideal'conditions gen?
    Fefonz Quan: this :)
    Wol Euler: (sorry, I'll have to go to the Kira Team meeting now. Bye all, take care)
    arabella Ella: (bye Wol)
    genesis Zhangsun: oh me too!
    Fefonz Quan: (bye wol)
    arabella Ella: (bye gen)
    genesis Zhangsun: bye!
    Mickorod Renard: bye WOL
    Mickorod Renard: WOL
    Mickorod Renard: BYE gEN
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i heard Gen's point that silence, stillness, monklike environments aren't the only opportunity to practice.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: though i have to admit..i have no idea what "practice" means.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: none
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: at all
    Fefonz Quan: Yes, and i wanted to say that although we started with buddhist descriptions, there are many ways to practice and cope with things, i wouldn't want to sound like 'this is the only way'
    Fefonz Quan: i believe gen was refering mainly to meditatin practice corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: Practice... lawyers practice, Doctors practice, Monks practice, even Archtiects practice
    arabella Ella: but ... again scuse my ignorance ... when here you say there are many ways to practice ... Being ... awareness ... what other ways are there?
    Fefonz Quan: even in mesitation there are different ways of meditatins
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods....i got that figured out..there are tons of ways ot meditate!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thousands...billions...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: as far as i can tell.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: is thre other stuff other than all the meditations?
    Fefonz Quan: as if fefonz is an expert in self help etc ;-)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Guardians'...B_-_10_Breaths
    arabella Ella: slowly slowly ... with patience ... you may be Fefonz, what we see is promising :)
    Mickorod Renard: some ask for guidance,,like in praying
    Fefonz Quan: sometimes also playing, dancing, singing, going to vacatins, listening to music can get people to a closer contact with life, self, and peacefulness
    Fefonz Quan: i wanted to say about the billions, that still many point to the same direction: minfulness, accepting what is as it is, being with what is, and know that life can be joyful and painful, that's the deal :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,maybe sometimes we look for the easy fix,,and it doesnt exist
    arabella Ella: sounds like a lovely summary to me Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: thanks :) but then comes the not-so-easy stuff - emptiness, being, etc. and some may say it trancend many things
    Fefonz Quan: but i wouldn't know about this, that's Pema's stuff ;-)
    arabella Ella: but you are getting there Fefonz ... slowly slowly with patience
    Fefonz Quan: hope w all are ara :)
    Mickorod Renard: ok folks ,,I have to go home,,see you soon
    Fefonz Quan: BYe Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: and thankyou
    arabella Ella: nite everyone ... i must go too ... its very late here now :)
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Ara, thanks for the talk
    arabella Ella: thanks to all of you too :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, me as well, I will be back at 19:00
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Ara..I'm glad you were here.
    arabella Ella: bye Corv :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: namastte
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