2009.04.30 13:00 - Looking for a tool

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan who was very kindly standing in for Storm Nordwind and who passed Storm the uncommented chat log. Storm has retrieved and posted the log but has not added any comments other than suggesting a title.

        Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz :)
        Fefonz Quan: Hey Fael! wow wing ! :)
        Fael Illyar smiles.
        Fefonz Quan: how does it go with the black collar?
        Fael Illyar: Hullo Wol :)
        Fefonz Quan: Hey Wol :)
        Fael Illyar: what go with the black collar?
        Fefonz Quan: Fael, you have eyes on the back of your head :)
        Wol Euler: hello fael, fefonz
        Fael Illyar: Me? just a radar :P
        Fefonz Quan: maybe i don;t know how to call the thing around your neck
        Fael Illyar: it's a part of the cloak of this outfit.
        Fael Illyar: Hi Aurel :)
        Wol Euler: hello aurel
        Fefonz Quan: ah, ok, b/w contrast
        Fefonz Quan: Hi AUrel
        Wol Euler: nice dress!
        aurel Miles: thanks
        aurel Miles: i suppose i should sit in a more ladylike way
        aurel Miles: but...
        Fael Illyar: just sit the way you want :)
        Wol Euler grins
        Fael Illyar: if you feel comfortable that way, then sit that way :)
        aurel Miles: i do
        aurel Miles: as much as any other way
        aurel Miles: what's on the agenda?
        Fael Illyar has no idea.
        aurel Miles: can i pose a question?
        Fael Illyar: of course :)
        Wol Euler: please do
        Fefonz Quan: sure, please
        aurel Miles: how do we stay focused on accepting the manifestation of appearance - looking at things with clarity
        aurel Miles: and being grounded
        aurel Miles: when the difficulties of life impose themselves on us?
        aurel Miles: economic
        aurel Miles: personal
        aurel Miles: health scares
        aurel Miles: etc etc
        Fael Illyar: Hi Mick :)
        Fefonz Quan: Hi MIck
        aurel Miles: Hi Mick
        Fael Illyar: By seeing the difficulties as they are. Not painting into them what they are't.
        Fefonz Quan: first we practice on teh small thing, that's my opinion
        aurel Miles: easily said
        aurel Miles: but solving difficulties requires overlooking appearance
        aurel Miles: oftener than not anyhow
        Wol Euler: hello mick
        Fefonz Quan: like in a gym, you don't go and lift the heaviest weight on the first time. - it will break your back
        Fael Illyar: also, being afraid of th future is always being afraid of your imagination.
        aurel Miles: is it possible to get too comfortable with the 5 pound weights?
        aurel Miles: and forget to move up?
        Fefonz Quan: as long as the PC is telling taht and not the doctor, it quite OK ;-)
        Fefonz Quan: (for Mick)
        Mickorod Renard: he he ,,ty
        Fael Illyar: with 5 pound weights?
        Fael Illyar is not quite getting it.
        Fefonz Quan: sure, aurel, and tehn some 10 pound fall on your feet to remind you to move forwrd
        aurel Miles: the gym analogy
        Wol Euler: continuing your analogy
        Mickorod Renard: by the way Fef,,its Stims WoK today at 2;00 pm
        Fefonz Quan: yes i know Mick
        Mickorod Renard: ok
        Wol Euler: could it happen? sure, it's entirely possible
        Wol Euler: IMHO
        Fefonz Quan: Buddhists call taht Aurel 'Karma's compassion'
        Wol Euler: and depending on what you want to get out of the exercise, maybe it's even enough
        Fefonz Quan: that* that* that*
        Fael Illyar: not accepting what you think the future will be is kind of like imagining something and then deciding it's bad and fighting yourself for imagining it but still continuing to imagine it.
        Wol Euler: was that a practical question, Aurel? Are you feeling stuck?
        Fefonz Quan: Are you feeling stuck, TOO ?
        Wol Euler: heheheh, yes!
        aurel Miles: yes -
        aurel Miles: a bit
        Wol Euler: true confessions time.
        Fael Illyar: Oh, that seems to be in good supply. Difficulties :)
        aurel Miles: i find i am so clouded
        aurel Miles: that i can't discern a direction
        Fael Illyar is having some financial shortage as well. Nothing absolutely critical but I'd better do something about it
        Mickorod Renard: I think i have said that i have struggled,,and indeed still do,,with that of control,,i tend to look into what the future may hold and then try and steer towards a good outcome,,this has also been good and bad
        aurel Miles: i can't see an outcome - so much is piled on, i feel blinded
        Mickorod Renard: I am still uncomfortable with the idea of not being in control
        Fefonz Quan: And do ou try to clear the clouds aurel?
        aurel Miles: yes
        Fael Illyar: I do little of conscious steering but it seems to be going towards direction I find good, mostly.
        Wol Euler: This may be bad practice and worse advice, but: I give myself permission to get it wrong. Not to be focussed, not to keep my mind clear
        aurel Miles: but having difficulty
        aurel Miles: also - the heart is involved
        aurel Miles: so - it occured to me
        Fefonz Quan: if it was not, they wouldn't be clouds i guess :)
        aurel Miles: that maybe i wasn't the only person who suffered from this
        Fael Illyar: It's ok to not know what to do.
        Wol Euler: no way :) It's a big club.
        Fael Illyar: it'll pass :)
        aurel Miles: i am not sure it will pass
        Fael Illyar: agonizing over it doesn't make it happen faster. Slows it down if anything.
        Fefonz Quan: sometimes it takes time to confussion to resolve, and staying with it helps the process
        aurel Miles: that's just it
        aurel Miles: staying with the confusion?
        Fefonz Quan: yes
        aurel Miles: how so?
        Fefonz Quan: (unless there are argent things to decide, surely)
        Fael Illyar: accept the confusion.
        Mickorod Renard: I think you must consider that any direction you choose should be one of honesty and in the interests of well being
        Fael Illyar: Mickorod, no musts :)
        Fefonz Quan: you should consider i would say
        Mickorod Renard: yes,,true,,sorry
        Fael Illyar: ... nor shoulds I'd say :)
        Fefonz Quan: (meant could)
        Fael Illyar: yes, that's better :)
        Fael Illyar: is there something you feel you must do, aurel?
        Fael Illyar: or must not
        aurel Miles: i don't know
        Mickorod Renard: or should or could?
        aurel Miles: i am not alone in the decision
        aurel Miles: and yet i am
        Fefonz Quan: sometimes it's helpful to see what scares us in the options ahead
        aurel Miles: i am between two cities
        aurel Miles: and yet my heart is solidly in one
        Wol Euler nods
        aurel Miles: and the other parts
        aurel Miles: less so
        aurel Miles: but rigth now in the other
        Fael Illyar: if your heart is already there, why the confusion?
        aurel Miles: because i cannot make the move without the cooperation of another
        aurel Miles: and i can't insist on that cooperation
        Fefonz Quan: and is there cooperation?
        Wol Euler: do you feel that it is being withheld?
        Mickorod Renard: sometimes we try to hold onto too many strings because we place value on them,,but in the end loose them all because of tryin to hold onto too much
        aurel Miles: i am just trying to figure out how to hold on to one string
        aurel Miles: two if you count making a living
        aurel Miles: but really one
        Fael Illyar: why do you need to hold on to it?
        aurel Miles: good point
        Wol Euler sighs sympathetically. I'm sorry to hear it.
        aurel Miles: it holds on to me
        Fefonz Quan: that's a good cause...
        Fael Illyar: it's easy to get confused trying to hold on to things that you can't hold on to all at once.
        Fefonz Quan saw some one-way strings leading nowhere...
        aurel Miles: it just seems to me that this is the most difficult to overcome
        Fael Illyar: yet, are all those things ones that need to be held on to? Will you lose them if you don't?
        aurel Miles: it is a familiar feeling
        aurel Miles: part of it is
        aurel Miles: and i know a lot of people are facing big changes right now
        aurel Miles: and when we face these big changes
        aurel Miles: i think it is almost impossible to see anything clearly
        Fael Illyar: it's very difficult to have a clear vision. It's future you're trying to grasp, right?
        aurel Miles: no - the present
        Mickorod Renard: like I found out , sometimes i have to be a passenger in life..and see where it takes me,,and risk the cost
        Fefonz Quan: big changes are similar to small changes, just scarier
        Fefonz Quan: sometimes there are clear options, but hard to perform
        aurel Miles: but sometimes there aren't
        Fefonz Quan: no options? or no clear options?
        Fael Illyar: life is much easier if you take it like you were watching a movie. See what comes, choose what you will and accept what comes.
        Fefonz Quan: we are talking about hard decisions, are we?
        aurel Miles: not really
        aurel Miles: we are talking about
        aurel Miles: let's use an objective example
        Fael Illyar: But, is there really anything for you to decide at the moment, aurel?
        aurel Miles: say you couldn't find new work
        aurel Miles: and you were on the verge of financial ruin
        aurel Miles: you don't really have choices
        aurel Miles: you just keep going
        aurel Miles: keep looking for work
        aurel Miles: and watching the money run out
        Wol Euler nods
        aurel Miles: in such a situation
        aurel Miles: i don't think you have choices
        Fefonz Quan: right, but that is not a confusing situation, just hard one...
        aurel Miles: but it is, at the same time, almost impossible to see anything outside of that
        Mickorod Renard: can you down size?
        aurel Miles: and the thing outside of that
        aurel Miles: might be the helpful thing
        Fefonz Quan: surely you can expand creatively the way of looking for other jobs
        aurel Miles: i did not use that example in order to apply it to me
        aurel Miles: i used it as a universal example
        aurel Miles: my situation is more complex
        Wol Euler: it was an example, guys, not hte actual situation
        Fefonz Quan: talking general 'you'. should i use 'one'?
        aurel Miles: but just as overwhelming
        Fael Illyar: could you take a pause from the issue you're facing? like a short vacation from it?
        aurel Miles: i don't want to talk about me
        aurel Miles: i want to talk about that thing that happens
        aurel Miles: when there is so much drama
        aurel Miles: that even frozen
        aurel Miles: you still can't see
        aurel Miles: have you never experienced that?
        Wol Euler: yes, of course; quite recently, and echoes of it still remain
        aurel Miles: how do you begin to see again?
        Fefonz Quan: sure, Drama is a long time friend...
        Wol Euler: the fear and worry and confusion shut down all other inputs
        Fael Illyar: I'll be frank. If you really want a perspective that migh help. You nee to talk about it without beating around the bush.
        Fael Illyar: And yes, I've had my share of drama
        aurel Miles: Fael - i am not here to discuss personal problems
        aurel Miles: but rather to discuss what i have noticed
        aurel Miles: in my own thought processes
        aurel Miles: and i do think this sensation is probably pretty common
        Wol Euler: I was lucky that I had a friend who insisted that I talk it out with her, and she got me moving again
        Mickorod Renard: well, i have faced situations where I have felt that I had control over,,like my life etc,,but then had to accept that I do not control as much as i thought,,,painful as I remember it, I learnt to accept it,,and now I am a happier person
        Fael Illyar: It is quite common.
        aurel Miles: is there a moment when things begin to clear?
        aurel Miles: and if so
        aurel Miles: how do you recognize it?
        Fael Illyar: I think the cause of the confusion is trying to hold on to too many threads that you simply can't hold on to all at once.
        Fael Illyar: once you stop trying to make sense of it, it starts clearing up by itself.
        Wol Euler: in my case, usually in retrospect, sometimes long after the change happened
        Mickorod Renard: I think that is partialy true fael
        aurel Miles: so how do we see the thinbgs we will in retrospect
        aurel Miles: in the moment
        Fael Illyar: yes, you also need to give up any idea that you have any idea what is going on.
        aurel Miles: ??
        Fefonz Quan: brb
        Wol Euler: the friend pointed out a few things I could do, which I had been unable to see because of the fear etc
        Wol Euler: I did them, simply trusted her to be right that they were there and possible
        Mickorod Renard: sometimes its that lesson that makes sense,,that you have to let go and trust
        Fael Illyar: and yes, usually necessary to talk about with someone who doesn't have your limited view.
        Wol Euler: and indeed they were :)
        Wol Euler: having done that, I found that I had a little more room to breathe
        Fefonz Quan: back, agree that ohter perspective are helpful.
        Fefonz Quan: yet the decision is personal
        Wol Euler: might I respectfully suggest we back up a few paces?
        aurel Miles: sure
        Mickorod Renard: good idea
        Wol Euler: Aurel is not asking for advice, she's looking for a tool.
        aurel Miles: that's right
        Fael Illyar: myself, I've usually mentally let go of all threads in situations like that. Then once I'm no longer trying to hold them all, see which of them I can pick back up.
        Wol Euler: she doesnt want to solve this problem, she wants to learn how problems get solved
        Wol Euler looks across. Right?
        aurel Miles: thanks Wol, that's exactly right
        Fefonz Quan: well, different problems are solved in different ways, that's why it is a little difficult here
        aurel Miles: and letting go of threads
        aurel Miles: isn't it
        aurel Miles: yes that's true
        Mickorod Renard: I think Fael works in the way that I ,,,was almost forced to work with,,but in the end was the best
        aurel Miles: but finding clarity in confusion
        Fael Illyar: do you understand what I mean with mentally letting go of threads?
        aurel Miles: there may be a method there
        aurel Miles: i think so
        aurel Miles: but please
        aurel Miles: elaborate
        Fael Illyar: it doesn't mean actually letting go of them in practise.
        Fefonz Quan: sometimes acceptign the situation as it is, accepting all emotions involved, and resting in teh middle of teh storm makes some clarifications.
        Fefonz Quan: with time
        Fefonz Quan: stop teh fighting for a while
        Fefonz Quan: the* the* the*
        Fael Illyar: because, once you've mentally let go of them, you'll end up picking most, if not all of them back up
        Fael Illyar: (and no-one else but you will know of it)
        Mickorod Renard: and,,that that is loyal to you will stay with you
        aurel Miles: i'm trying to get to a description of that process, an understanding of it in detail, i'm trying to explore the intricacies of that process
        Fael Illyar: that's where it gets tricky doing it with words...
        Mickorod Renard: I , in my life,,found that my controlling ways was suffocating
        Mickorod Renard: one has to let new grouth flourish
        Fefonz Quan: sometimes clearing the mind by doing other things and not thinking of the actual problem help, though it is diffficult with emotional thing. they follow you wherever you go...
        Mickorod Renard: growth
        Fefonz Quan: but taking some space, metaphorical or physical may help too for some day
        Fefonz Quan: days*
        Fael Illyar: your unconscious mind is much more efficient at dealing with things like this than your conscious mind.
        aurel Miles: that's an interesting idea
        Mickorod Renard: I sometimes wonder whether these situations arise at certain times as a learning package,,and there is only one way to learn,,and that is by being broken to it
        Fefonz Quan: So reducing the noise of the conscious one might help
        Fael Illyar: conscious mind gets stuck with all kinds of shoulds, should nots, musts, must nots
        aurel Miles: "broken to it"?
        Fefonz Quan: ? too
        Wol Euler: like breaking a horse to saddle?
        Mickorod Renard: well,,thats too deep,,but i am sure its linked to letting the subconcious take over
        Fefonz Quan: (english has some weird expressions)
        Mickorod Renard: as Fef said
        Mickorod Renard: and sometimes this comes about when the concious cannot ,,in the end function
        Fael Illyar: I think the "broken" in that "broken to it" refers to some of your musts/must nots being broken
        Fael Illyar: which is usually needed for clearing the confusion.
        Mickorod Renard: yes
        Wol Euler: ah, ty
        Mickorod Renard: and it can come about in diferent ways
        Wol Euler: there are two key tools that work for me usually: my blockages usually have a physciacl component: I stop cleaning the flat, or start "saving" newspapers etc
        Wol Euler: I force myself to deal with that as though it were a natural formation, without judging it
        Wol Euler: and find that making space physically also liberats my thoughts
        Fefonz Quan: also, believing in your judhgment and that finally you will make the right choices is helpful. not sure exactly how to implement it
        Mickorod Renard: this was where i was refering to ,,keeping it honest
        Mickorod Renard: in dire times its easy to try things that are a bit ,,erm,,desperate
        aurel Miles: true
        Mickorod Renard: this is a result of trying to control
        Fael Illyar: trying to control would be a way to say that refusing to accept that things can go certain way.
        Fefonz Quan: we spoke a lot the last minutes, maybe aurel wants to give direction?
        Fefonz Quan: s*
        aurel Miles: no - Fefonz, thank you
        aurel Miles: i wanted to hear some mechanisms
        aurel Miles: some tools
        aurel Miles: because i am blocked
        aurel Miles: but i would also add
        Mickorod Renard: yes,,in fact,,letting things flow properly alows you more clarity,,so in the end u have more chance to steer things more positively
        aurel Miles: that sometimes in a situation that involves more than one person
        aurel Miles: complicates it further
        aurel Miles: because of course
        aurel Miles: we cannot decide for others
        aurel Miles: but sometimes our decisions effect others deeply
        Fael Illyar: (but you'd like to?)
        Fefonz Quan nods
        aurel Miles: depend on others too
        Wol Euler: mmhmm
        aurel Miles: it's extremely uncomfortable trying to navigate a difficult situation with someone else
        aurel Miles: when it effects your own life to such a great extent
        Fefonz Quan: accepting the inability to control others comes also to mind.
        aurel Miles: that's not the problem for me
        Mickorod Renard: yes
        Fefonz Quan: i found it is a great tool once qcquired
        aurel Miles: the problem is allowing others to control me
        aurel Miles: it is difficult not to allow that
        Fael Illyar: how do you draw the line between someone controlling you and someone not controlling you?
        aurel Miles: good question
        Fefonz Quan: (sometimes when some people are involved, surely some decision/compromises are taken. yet seeing them as mututal decisions rather than 'one side forces the other to do a and b' is very helpful and healthy
        Fael Illyar: what's the difference?
        aurel Miles: especially when it is a close relationship - how do you discern between being open and non-juedgmental and giving them the freedom to choose their own path
        aurel Miles: and at the same time
        aurel Miles: giving yourself the same respect
        aurel Miles: there is a saying
        aurel Miles: "justice delayed is justice denied"
        aurel Miles: for a long time i did not understand that
        Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
        aurel Miles: then i had a boyfriend who would promise to do somethinbg
        aurel Miles: and then leave it
        aurel Miles: for days
        Fefonz Quan: (only with close relationship justice may not be the main concern)
        Wol Euler: aaah. ok.
        aurel Miles: and when i finally did it
        aurel Miles: he would say i simply acted prematurely
        aurel Miles: and it hit me
        aurel Miles: dishes delayed
        aurel Miles: is dishes denied
        Mickorod Renard: mmm,,,well, i best be off to Stims Wok
        aurel Miles: and justice is the same
        aurel Miles: yes
        Fael Illyar: See you later Mick :)
        Fefonz Quan: or: dishes delayed are just ok'. depend on what you both decide
        aurel Miles: Bye Mick
        Wol Euler: bye mick, take care
        Mickorod Renard: ok,,c u soon maybe
        aurel Miles: I may drag my feet awhile
        Mickorod Renard: bye,,thanks 4 the chat
        aurel Miles: feeling fragile and maybe learning something here
        Fefonz Quan: or even, since you delay dishes, you do the floor and i the dishes'.
        aurel Miles: well - that is very practical but once again
        aurel Miles: it was just a concrete example
        aurel Miles: of a typical situation that arises emotionally between people
        aurel Miles: all the time
        Fefonz Quan: sure, but what i wanted to say is that there arre different ways to look at things
        Wol Euler: it depends on the intention, can be a power game
        aurel Miles: i don't think you can judge intention - can you?
        Wol Euler: or a genuine mismatch of understanding time
        aurel Miles: we can't respond to what we can't see or measure
        Fael Illyar: yes, the key is letting go of the idea that "he must do the dishes" ... note that this is different from allowing him to get away with it without doing anything about it.
        Wol Euler: actually, yes, I think we can and do.
        aurel Miles: can you explain?
        Fefonz Quan: and sometimes one side's delays is other side's har critic
        Wol Euler: not htat we are guaranteed to be right of course.
        Fefonz Quan: yes to fael with teh dishes!
        Wol Euler: asking the question "what do you mean?" is a start.
        aurel Miles: it's not about dishes guys ... ;)
        Fael Illyar: just an example :)
        Wol Euler: I know :)
        Fefonz Quan: giving away teh idea 'he must do....' is very strong
        aurel Miles: i find that easy
        aurel Miles: but then hours or days later
        aurel Miles: (back to the dishes analogy) i find i must eat something
        aurel Miles: and there are no clean dishes
        aurel Miles: or i must make a choice
        Fael Illyar: being angry tends to come from an idea like "he must do this" or "he must be like this" or similar.
        aurel Miles: and the other person involved has not given me any indication of their thoughts on the subject
        Fefonz Quan: at this case, you could do it instead of him, but only in the analogy maybe
        aurel Miles: only in the analogy
        Fefonz Quan: asking themabout their thoughts?
        Fael Illyar: Well, in that case you pretty much have to do it to be able to eat.
        Wol Euler: well, that would be the first place to start, in my opinion. THough it might be best to give yourselves a moment's pause for thought and calming
        aurel Miles: Fael - that is a piece of wisdom, I will contemplate for some time
        Fael Illyar: although, if you find a way to solve your own problem that he doesn't like, it could be effective.
        aurel Miles: how so?
        aurel Miles: i don't think i am looking for that kind of impact
        aurel Miles: just a way to move
        Fefonz Quan: think i should go, thanks for teh discussion and hope we got some ponter in teh right direction aurel :)
        Fael Illyar: See you later Fefonz :)
        aurel Miles: thanks Fefonz
        Wol Euler: bye fefonz, take care
        Fefonz Quan: pointer*
        Fefonz Quan: bye all
        Fael Illyar: why do you need his cooperation to move?
        aurel Miles: once again
        Wol Euler: perhaps just take that as a given for the moment?
        aurel Miles: i don't want this to be about me
        aurel Miles: we are often faced with situations where we cannot move without another person
        aurel Miles: family members
        aurel Miles: spouses
        Fael Illyar: one way to solve the problem is to challenge just that assumption.
        aurel Miles: team members
        aurel Miles: it's the same dynamic
        aurel Miles: one depends on the other
        Fael Illyar: but of course doesn't apply always
        Fael Illyar: overall, it's negotiation.
        aurel Miles: how do you negotiate with clarity?
        Fael Illyar: that's probably the number one thing many people would like to learn ...
        Fael Illyar: Ok, perhaps this question might clear something up.
        Wol Euler: negotiating with clarity needs trust and open/fair communication
        Fael Illyar: If he won't cooperate, will you move anyway?
        aurel Miles: pardon?
        Fael Illyar: there's something you want here. I'm asking just how badly do you want it.
        Fael Illyar: What are you ready to give up to get it?
        aurel Miles: i have already given up everything
        Wol Euler points to the recorder. Shall we switch that off?
        aurel Miles: please
        Fael Illyar: yes, let's do so

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