2009.05.01 07:00 - das Ding an sich

The Guardian for this meeting was Gaya Ethaniel. The comments are by Gaya Ethaniel.

Wol Euler: hello gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
Wol Euler: is this your session?
Gaya Ethaniel: No it's quen, I'm covering her this week.
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?
Wol Euler: ah. I'm well thanks, enjoying the day off
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
Wol Euler: that is a really sweet av, by the way :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks I like it too. :)
Gaya Ethaniel: You made own shape right?
Wol Euler: yes, I did
Gaya Ethaniel: Because I remember telling you about how Wol's features resemble the RL person.
Wol Euler: mmm, not so much her face as her body
Wol Euler: the body is a friend of mine who works in a record store here
Wol Euler: a sample attractive but not "beautiful" woman
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, I meant the facial features.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Sophia.
Wol Euler: the face was invented, I think.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi :))
Wol Euler: it started as my original av, then got extensively modified
Wol Euler: hello again sophiasharon
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you Sophia?
Gaya Ethaniel smiles @ Wol.
SophiaSharon Larnia: good!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: exploring the fun and frustration of building in SL :)
Wol Euler: ah!
Gaya Ethaniel: There is a German phrase I'd like to ask Wol about... let me get it, one moment.
SophiaSharon Larnia: am generally making a mess
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia, Wol, Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: das Ding an sich - what does this mean to you Wol?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
Wol Euler: "the thing in and for itself"
Wol Euler: without interpretation or analysis
Gaya Ethaniel: "in and for"?
Gaya Ethaniel: That's interesting :)
Wol Euler: where did that come up?
Gaya Ethaniel: It's something Kant said and I'm finding a lot of commonalities between what we discuss in PaB/WoK and Kant...
Gaya Ethaniel: How odd that we are also discussing Kant in the philosophical senimar!
Wol Euler: heh
Wol Euler: it overlaps with the idea of dropping, yes.
Gaya Ethaniel: Kant basically came up with division between things in themselves - das Ding an sich - and things they appear to us.
Wol Euler: oh, sorry eliza, didn't see you arrive
Eliza Madrigal: :) No worries, enjoying the conversation
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm personally interested the relationship between the two...
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think they are exclusive of each other... what do you think?
Gaya Ethaniel: Exclusive as in separate...
Wol Euler: I think there is an overlap, our understanding is clearly (to me :) prompted by seeing the thing
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think my aim is to drop things completely though...
SophiaSharon Larnia: no?
Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps they are exclusive to each other if to be seen only when dropped?
Gaya Ethaniel: To be honest Sophia, I don't know...
Gaya Ethaniel: Unless... how things are is again part of something bigger... sorry am I talking gibberish?
SophiaSharon Larnia: i have a hard time dropping thing, but for reasons difficult to explain
SophiaSharon Larnia: that is part of it
Gaya Ethaniel: Dropping how things appear to us Sophia?
SophiaSharon Larnia: how things appear and ideas
Gaya Ethaniel nods...
Gaya Ethaniel: I feel as though I'm back to square one and rather confused again.
SophiaSharon Larnia: it appears to be something bigger for a reason
Eliza Madrigal: When we see anything, there are inherently pattern/code processes involved. It does seem that when we consciously notice/look at those codes or patterns, our relationship to what we see changes... but I'm not sure I'm on the same page as you all are yet?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, that makes sense Eliza.
Wol Euler sneaks a peek at the cover to be sure she is in the right _book_
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm puzzled by our ability/capacity to see how things really are. Where does this come from?
Gaya Ethaniel: Why do we humans need it?
Wol Euler: I think it's actually the other way around: most other creatures don't have the ability to see things as what they are not
Wol Euler: dogs don't watch TV. Bees don't try to pollinate paintings
Gaya Ethaniel: ahhhhh
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm..we're the only ones who create delusions and games and mazes for ourselves
SophiaSharon Larnia: but that we can see them, implies that they exist
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't understand that... Sophia, what do you mean?
SophiaSharon Larnia: perhaps
SophiaSharon Larnia: a dog and bees don’t have complex thought but we do
Eliza Madrigal: we 'read into' everything
Gaya Ethaniel nods... and points to herself, asking endless questions of 'why' >.<
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Or "For what purpose is this?"
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes me too
Eliza Madrigal: We're always looking for something to 'do' with whatever we see
Wol Euler: it is the question of questions...
Gaya Ethaniel: We seem to want to know why things happen and so on.
Gaya Ethaniel: Almost 'naturally'...
Wol Euler: that is part of our pattern-making, as Eliza said
Gaya Ethaniel nods...
Eliza Madrigal: There is a feeling that we 'would' know, or that we DO know but can't articulate it
Wol Euler: we seem hardwired to want to do "1+1=2"
Eliza Madrigal: or 'should' somehow
Wol Euler: whereas most other species are content with "1"
Eliza Madrigal nods
Wol Euler: the difference between "there's an apple, I shall eat it" and "how did that get there?"
Gaya Ethaniel: I know that feeling Eliza...
Eliza Madrigal: certainly! Instead of just 'apple' we start tracing back.. I think we're looking for ways to fortify our'selves'
Gaya Ethaniel: How is the tracing back help fortifying 'self'?
Eliza Madrigal: feeling safe...survival instinct...'If I figure this out, I can grow apples in the future"
Eliza Madrigal: maybe
Gaya Ethaniel ponders...
Eliza Madrigal: or become invaluable as 'the only person who knows how' hehe
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe we just want to know...?
SophiaSharon Larnia: evolutionary instinct for survival doesn't explain the delusion making
Eliza Madrigal: yes..there is that too. It is fun.
Gaya Ethaniel: And... satisfying in a sense...
Gaya Ethaniel: You are asking tough questions Sophia!
SophiaSharon Larnia: no i can’t think well today :))
Eliza Madrigal: for progress perhaps though Sophia? We're always driving forward...we rehearse scenarios in case they come up...?
Eliza Madrigal: trying to be 'ahead' of things?
Gaya Ethaniel is still thinking...
Eliza Madrigal: (I’m just thinking from the viewpoint of survival at the moment)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i do that 100 times a day and still don’t come up with things that come up
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: It is an interesting and valid departure point Eliza.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Wol Euler chuckles
Gaya Ethaniel: But... we said we are different from animals so looking at this from 'survival' point of view perhaps doesn't cover all the ground.
Wol Euler: maybe it does though.
Gaya Ethaniel: Please say more?
Wol Euler: we are pretty poorly equipped animals. If we had no more brains than the average small dog, our species would never have lasted a week let alone a quarter million years
Wol Euler: we aren't fast enough or strong enough, we have no claws and piddly little teeth
Wol Euler: no fur
Wol Euler: can't even hibernate!
Gaya Ethaniel nods...
Wol Euler: we need to plan.
Eliza Madrigal nods . Would love to hibernate. hah
Wol Euler: we need to see patterns -- yeah, me too :)
Gaya Ethaniel: When we are hungry, we can decide still not to eat. Animals won't be able to do that.
Wol Euler: the famous example of catching the monkey
Gaya Ethaniel: mm...?
Wol Euler: you get a big heavy jar whose neck is the diameter of a monkey's wrist
Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
Wol Euler: and put nuts and fruit in it
Wol Euler: monkey comes, puts in hand, grabs food
Wol Euler: you wander calmly and slowly up and grab the monkey
Wol Euler: it is trapped because its fist is bigger than its wrist, and it is unable to let go of the food
Wol Euler: it cannot say "liberty is worth more than an orange"
Wol Euler: which we can
Gaya Ethaniel nods...
Eliza Madrigal: complex, big picture thinking
Gaya Ethaniel: So this leads to 'free will'?
Wol Euler: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I used to think that as a human, I have a limit in my understanding at a point eventually. This tidies up many questions I have.
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm actually questioning if that's the case for all knowledge now...
Gaya Ethaniel: Were at you Stim's workshop yesterday?
Wol Euler: no...
Eliza Madrigal: For a little while
Eliza Madrigal: Actually...most of it.
Gaya Ethaniel: I posted the transcript... one moment...
Eliza Madrigal: So then might it be 'evolutionary' in a sense, to begin to see 'through' the patterns... a sort of next collective leap to incorporate more of the 'no time' dimension into our lives
Eliza Madrigal: or beings (Do I leap too fast?)
Gaya Ethaniel: Pila Mulligan: my approach here is from personal experience during several decades of studying and applying Gandhi's work, starting in the 1960's with the civil rights movement and then protesting the Vietnam War, involvement in anti-nuclear and environmental issues, and on to the present Native Hawaiian rights movement. As you can see I am deep in that rtu of experience but these truths transcend mundane issues. They are very personal and I believe their value is personal
Gaya Ethaniel: Stim Morane: that is not a limitation
Gaya Ethaniel: Stim's comment really threw me off...
Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: That it being personal is not a limitation, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes... that made me question how I use to tidy up 'rough edges' in my thinking. As a human being, I am limited in knowing.
Gaya Ethaniel: knowing, seeing... etc
SophiaSharon Larnia: I do understand the first part Eliza, is this no time dimension our higher selves or the human ego self
Eliza Madrigal: Not sure Sophia..to my thinking it is the door to our seeing ourselves as not separate and therefore doing less harm..may be pure idealism :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I don’t know if I think differently than others but I think the human ego is a fragment of our higher selves
SophiaSharon Larnia: perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, when you say rough edges, what do you mean?
Gaya Ethaniel: For example, what Sophia said about our 'ego being a fragment of a higher self', I used to think there is no way I can find that is true.
SophiaSharon Larnia: true Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: But on personal level perhaps, it is possible... that is what I've been thinking.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah. :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Time for me to run now. Lovely to be with you this morning, all. :) Thanks
Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care.
Gaya Ethaniel: Have a good day Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now. You guys too!!
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Need to get back to RL too. Have a good day both :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i have to go too :)) have a great rest of your day
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
Wol Euler: bye SS, enjoy
Wol Euler: ok