2009.05.02 13:00 - Our Perceptions and Subsequent Logic

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adelene Dawner. The comments are by Adelene Dawner.

    Adelene Dawner: Hello :)
    Rish Bleriot: hello :)
    Adelene Dawner: Here for the meeting?
    Rish Bleriot: yep
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Adelene Dawner: Have you been here before?
    Rish Bleriot: yep ...once ...yesterday
    Adelene Dawner: ah, cool :)
    Adelene Dawner hasn't been coming very much recently.
    Rish Bleriot: and ur an ...officer ... here ?
    Rish Bleriot: sec
    Adelene Dawner: We don't have officers as such, but I'm a member, and I'm Guardian on Call for this session, which is about as close to 'in charge' as we get. :)
    Adelene Dawner: Hiya Pila! ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Pila Mulligan: how are you Ade?
    Adelene Dawner: Good. :) I've been busy the last few weeks.
    Pila Mulligan: that was an interesting gesutre by your avi
    Pila Mulligan: maknig a circle with your hands
    Pila Mulligan: typing?
    Adelene Dawner: My new AO program tends to override the typing animation, so I added this, yeah. :)
    Pila Mulligan: cool
    Pila Mulligan: hi Rish
    Rish Bleriot: hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Scath
    Rish Bleriot: sorry was afk ... just came
    Pila Mulligan: hi Vendy
    Vendy Walpole: hello
    Vendy Walpole: everyone
    Rish Bleriot: hi vendy
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ade, Pila, Rish
    Rish Bleriot: hello scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Vendy
    Pila Mulligan: Rish, have you been here (SL Play as Being) before?
    Rish Bleriot: once ..yesterday Pila
    Pila Mulligan: ah, nice to meet you
    Rish Bleriot: nice to meet u too :)
    Adelene Dawner: So how is everyone? It's been a while since I've really been here.
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, we missed you Ade:)
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Adelene Dawner has been busy, working on some neat projects.
    Pila Mulligan: including making a SL university sim as I recall
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, how is the exhibition going, haven't gotten to see it yet?
    Adelene Dawner: Yep, that starts beta testing sometime next week :)
    Pila Mulligan: I love how your avi types Ade :)
    Adelene Dawner: The exhibition seems to be going well - I need to go by and check with Nicolo, though :)
    Adelene Dawner grins ta Pila :D
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: looks like a mystic conjuring up light
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Adelene Dawner: So what have you been up to here?
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Pila Mulligan: me - same old chats and workshops
    Pila Mulligan: Maxine's and Stim's workshops
    Scathach Rhiadra: oh lots of sessions, as usual:)
    Pila Mulligan: and usually this or the 1700 chat
    Adelene Dawner: Any interesting topics?
    Pila Mulligan: Maxine's dream workshop has kind of drifted into the Sunday session at this time
    Adelene Dawner: Cool
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: for the past couple of weeks anyway
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, let me see, ..Dreams, Time, Illusions....
    Pila Mulligan: Stims ethics workshops on Thursday are quit einteresting
    Pila Mulligan: at Kira
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Vendy Walpole: but they are late for Europeans
    Vendy Walpole: I am sad for that
    Pila Mulligan: yes, SL timing can be tough Vendy
    Vendy Walpole: can't it be changed, so we all could come?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes I am probably the 'earliest' European, and I find it hard going to stay so late
    Pila Mulligan: late morning SL time seems to work okay for most time zones -- maybe tought for Japan and Australia
    Pila Mulligan: :) (Squee)
    Adelene Dawner: No matter what time an event is, it's always going to be in the wee hours for someone - and that's only going to get worse as more countries get more online.
    Adelene Dawner: ([13:17] Squee: Had a life. Traded it for broadband.)
    Vendy Walpole: but I have noticed that most of the schedules are according tio USA time, in SL
    Pila Mulligan: probably in part due to SL time being a US time zone
    Vendy Walpole: in different groups
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, I think over 50% of residents are American
    Vendy Walpole: probably, yet they know that whole world comes here and the goal is to keep people I guess
    Pila Mulligan: but, as Ade noted, that propoprtion may decrease
    Vendy Walpole: not only Americans
    Pila Mulligan: another barrier is language -- it would be nice if SL had a good translator
    Vendy Walpole: yes and ABC spell check :))
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Vendy Walpole: the second even more needed
    Vendy Walpole: haha
    Pila Mulligan: then we would have to abandon our SL Typo Group :)
    Vendy Walpole: I missed it, must join it
    Pila Mulligan: its an imaginary group -- but 95% of SL avis are fictional members
    Vendy Walpole: :)
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Pila Mulligan: any ideas for a chat topic?
    Adelene Dawner: I got nothin' - Peer an I have beel talking a lot about some really deep stuff recently, so I may be chatted out. :)
    Adelene Dawner: *been
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Rish Bleriot: so ....
    Rish Bleriot: do u think Pila ...
    Rish Bleriot: that we might just be complicated computer programs running on organic robots ?
    Pila Mulligan: wasn't that a movie? :)
    Rish Bleriot: well .... its an intriguing idea
    Rish Bleriot: even a possibility ..... even if it was a movie
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Pila Mulligan: I think it is an intriguing allegory to many people -- but personally it is not my opnion :)
    Rish Bleriot: i mean ...
    Rish Bleriot: think og it this way ...
    Rish Bleriot: we make robots
    Rish Bleriot: and we try to make puter programs that are intelligent
    Rish Bleriot: not yet ...
    Rish Bleriot: but we try
    Rish Bleriot: so eventually ....
    Rish Bleriot: we will get there
    Rish Bleriot: and those robots will improve too
    Rish Bleriot: become self replicating ...
    Rish Bleriot: with real brains ...
    Rish Bleriot: wont we set them on mars ? or some other planet ?
    Rish Bleriot: which is hostile to us .... but ok for them
    Rish Bleriot: and maybe ... mine it or smthn
    Rish Bleriot: maybe we will mine them for experience
    Rish Bleriot: the robots themselves
    Rish Bleriot: its a possibility
    Rish Bleriot: maybe we are like that .... to someone else

    Pila Mulligan: my guess is that while possibility exists, by the time it may be realized the context will be different from our present capacity to speculate
    Vendy Walpole: I believe its possible
    Pila Mulligan: as for us, I just do not see the possiiblity
    Vendy Walpole: as some other theories
    Rish Bleriot: so maybe we wld prefer to have a more contextually relevant topic .....
    Rish Bleriot: ideas ?
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, we all seem to be 'talked out', so to speak:)
    Pila Mulligan: it is an interesting topic
    Pila Mulligan: John Lily was the first person I know to offer a similar theory
    Pila Mulligan: 35 years ago or so
    Rish Bleriot: the theory has been around for a while ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: but how woule e find evidence for it one way or the other?
    Rish Bleriot: nuthn new abt it
    Rish Bleriot: how indeed ...
    Vendy Walpole: I must apologise...have to leave, sorry
    Rish Bleriot: i guess we wld be programmed not to
    Pila Mulligan: bye Vendy
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Vendy
    Vendy Walpole: see you soon, bye
    Adelene Dawner: See you :)
    Rish Bleriot: bye vendy
    Pila Mulligan: to me it reflects a common habit of people to extend metaphors into a contempoary cultural theme
    Pila Mulligan: computer technology dominates our culutre
    Pila Mulligan: so we speculate in that context
    Pila Mulligan: but the speculation is not necessarily that related to the culutral image
    Rish Bleriot: 35 yrs ago ... computers didnt dominate us so much
    Pila Mulligan: Lily was ahead of his time :)
    Rish Bleriot: and i suppose the idea is even older than that
    Rish Bleriot: maybe not expressed ... but it may have existed ....unnoticed
    Pila Mulligan: I tihnk people have always lloked for an underlying explanation of things
    Rish Bleriot: yeah ...
    Rish Bleriot: this idea tends to give god another name ...
    Pila Mulligan: have you ever noticed how literature in the early 20th Century is packed full of train related metaphors?
    Pila Mulligan: on the right track
    Pila Mulligan: etc
    Rish Bleriot: so maybe thats why it didnt see the light of day sooner
    Pila Mulligan: that was the dominant cultural technology then
    Rish Bleriot: hm
    Rish Bleriot: well ...Pila ...dont think we willg et anywhere with this idea soon :))
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Rish Bleriot: so how abt we get more contextually relevant and discuss .... global warming ? :)
    Pila Mulligan: personally I do not subscribe to it, but it is an interesting idea
    Rish Bleriot: it is ...surely
    Pila Mulligan: well, maybe stay with the same topic but shift it a little toward the tendancy to give god a name
    Rish Bleriot: i mean ... in a few hudred years time ... we might be surprised to find that god is actually a programmer ....
    Pila Mulligan: or a conductor :)
    Rish Bleriot: possible
    Pila Mulligan: ticket please :)
    Rish Bleriot: i think he likes music :)
    Rish Bleriot: oh ???
    Rish Bleriot: lol
    Pila Mulligan: I was still with trains :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: or some of us might just be surprised to find a God
    Rish Bleriot: heheh
    Rish Bleriot: i was with mozart ...
    Pila Mulligan: but music may be closer
    Rish Bleriot: composer ...conductor ...and ... a programmer
    Pila Mulligan: but we are of course perpetuating the idea of god as an entity
    Pila Mulligan: an inddiviual so to speak
    Rish Bleriot: yeah
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, not me:)
    Rish Bleriot: maybe he is a club ...
    Pila Mulligan: in that case we probably have to deal with a lot of them
    Pila Mulligan: yep :)
    Rish Bleriot: comittee ?perhaps
    Pila Mulligan: his arabella
    Rish Bleriot: by the way we lapse into imperfections .... it cld be a committee
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone
    Rish Bleriot: hi ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: design by committee?
    Rish Bleriot: yep
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: seems like they were not all on the same page
    arabella Ella: Hiya Scath Rish Pila Adeline
    Rish Bleriot: hi ara ... again :)
    Adelene Dawner: hi :)
    Pila Mulligan: for the sake of discussion I could be a polytheistic humanist
    Pila Mulligan: in other words, there are lots of gods, but none of them exceed human nature
    Rish Bleriot: but see ... the growing silence implies that some of us see this line of thinking as blasphemy :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is inviting of bitterness form some
    Scathach Rhiadra: or the other way round, we are wondering, what God?
    Adelene Dawner: pfffft
    arabella Ella: may i ask what the topic u r discussing is?
    Adelene Dawner: (@ Rish, that was)
    arabella Ella: ooops shhhh apologies
    Rish Bleriot: to be or not to be ara
    Rish Bleriot: silence ...but why ?
    Pila Mulligan: we are still kind of negotiating or dancing around a topic idea, arabella :)
    arabella Ella: ok ty
    Pila Mulligan: when there is a large crowd here and diverse chat lines the pause can help baalnce thiings :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: 90 second timeout, micro-meditation to stop ...
    Rish Bleriot: we were discussing if we really are ...or are we just a figment of god's imagination ...
    Pila Mulligan: or something
    arabella Ella: mmmmmmm
    arabella Ella: intruiging topic
    Rish Bleriot: or smthn else
    Pila Mulligan: and Scath suggests the obverse
    Scathach Rhiadra: Rish, you are not cynical by aany chance, are you?
    Rish Bleriot: no
    Rish Bleriot: just philosophical :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)
    Rish Bleriot: without scotch even ...
    Pila Mulligan: cynicism is a vlaid element of philosophy :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: true

    Adelene Dawner: I just found something interestingly relevant, from MetaQuotes: I think MY metaphysical ideology is like a daycare where the floor is a little slanty. Some of the kids are kind of sad that it's crooked and they just want to whine for their mom or dad to come and get them, and some kids have decided that their parents probably don't exist because they haven't seen them lately and seriously guys the floor is slanted. But some kids don't know or whine or CARE when or if their mom or dad will come to get them ever BECAUSE HEY SLANTY FLOOR WHEEEEE
    Rish Bleriot: yep pila
    arabella Ella: if u r being philosophical you know that there are always two contrasting arguments for each position ... and no definite answers
    Rish Bleriot: yeah ...thats why philosophers kept getting paid
    Scathach Rhiadra: nice Ade:)
    arabella Ella: and ... what's wrong with that Rish?
    Rish Bleriot: if they had found us a solution ...we wld have fired them long back :)
    arabella Ella: so you are a non philosopher yet tackling hard philosophical questions?
    Rish Bleriot: good qn
    Rish Bleriot: sort of ... i think
    arabella Ella: :)
    Rish Bleriot: so Pila ...whats the locus standii ?
    arabella Ella: nothing wrong in thinking in terms of possibilities IMHO ... maybe this ... or perhaps that ... etc
    arabella Ella: even science does not come up with definite answers to questions
    Pila Mulligan: well, as a topic .... maybe what is real?
    Rish Bleriot: sure ...good one
    Pila Mulligan: gravity is real
    Rish Bleriot: senses are limited ..... so what is real ?
    Rish Bleriot: coz our perceptions and subsequent logic is based upon them
    arabella Ella: that is a lovely philosophical way of putting it Rish :)
    Rish Bleriot: if we take a look at pam andersen ....we cld debate otherwise
    Pila Mulligan: last nite this lead to the idea of synthesizing neurology and meditation
    Rish Bleriot: abt gravity i mean
    Rish Bleriot: thx ara
    Pila Mulligan: to me it is interesting that gravity is one of the most pervasive epxereinces least understood by scinece
    Rish Bleriot: oh but the concept is well understood ...pila
    Pila Mulligan: we not only sense gravity, we have to live with it
    arabella Ella: really Pila ... could you go on please?
    arabella Ella: do you mean cos wind or hurricanes or earthquakes or sea defy gravity so it is dependent on particular conditions?
    arabella Ella: (or outer space too)
    Pila Mulligan: I was reaidng somewhere that gravity is believed to hold space-time in a non-expanding state
    Rish Bleriot: no ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: universe is expanding
    Pila Mulligan: frm wiki: "Modern physics describes gravitation using the general theory of relativity, in which gravitation is a consequence of the curvature of spacetime which governs the motion of inertial objects."
    Rish Bleriot: yep
    Rish Bleriot: but its a concept thats difficult to discuss here in the absence of writing/drawing materials
    Rish Bleriot: gravity is the fabric on which stellar objects sit .... and the heavier the object is ...the more the fabric gets deformed
    Pila Mulligan: but then gravity has a slightly different role and characteristics in the quantum field, as I understand it
    Rish Bleriot: imagine a balloon ...
    Rish Bleriot: thats the fabric
    Rish Bleriot: curving in space and time
    Rish Bleriot: and objects sit on it ....
    Rish Bleriot: they deform it ...by their mass
    Rish Bleriot: the deformation ....is gravity
    Rish Bleriot: thats how its understood in relativistic terms
    Pila Mulligan: so gravity is real ...
    Rish Bleriot: and time warps can be understood too ...
    Pila Mulligan: is not entirely understood
    Rish Bleriot: thru that image
    Pila Mulligan: if*
    Pila Mulligan: what else is real?
    Rish Bleriot: the more an object defrms it ....the more it tries to touch the other side of the balloon ...
    arabella Ella: but then ... why do objects float in water?
    arabella Ella: why is there no gravity in outer space?
    Rish Bleriot: so instead of having to walk around the balloon ... which wld take a certain time ....
    Scathach Rhiadra: low density
    Rish Bleriot: u cld take a short cut ... right thru ...provided u had enuff gravity ...
    Rish Bleriot: oh sorry ... i was lookng down :) and typing away
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: interestnig
    Pila Mulligan: so time travel may be real
    Rish Bleriot: it is
    Rish Bleriot: try googling "wormholes" ...u will see
    Rish Bleriot: its on wikipedia too
    Rish Bleriot: based upon what i just told u ...
    Rish Bleriot: problem is ... we just smart enuff yet ... to tap it :)
    Rish Bleriot: *we are not
    Pila Mulligan: are we smart enought to understand the ideas that created an image of god among our ancestors?
    Rish Bleriot: fear ?
    Pila Mulligan: perhaps
    Rish Bleriot: lack of understanding ... we still dont have it
    Pila Mulligan needs to meet a rl appointment soon
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pila
    arabella Ella: supernatural events?
    Pila Mulligan: thanks for the interesting chat everyone
    arabella Ella: leap of faith?
    Rish Bleriot: bye pila ...hope to see u again :)
    arabella Ella: bye Pila
    Pila Mulligan: aloha
    Rish Bleriot: nuthn is supernatural ara ...
    Rish Bleriot: is it ?
    arabella Ella: maybe yes ... maybe no
    Rish Bleriot: if it exists within nature ... cld it be supernatural ?
    arabella Ella: depends on your beliefs and perspective
    Rish Bleriot: its simply not understood
    Rish Bleriot: for instance ....
    Rish Bleriot: if we cld go back in time .... and show TV to a caveman ....
    Rish Bleriot: he wld think its voodoo :)
    arabella Ella: yes?
    Rish Bleriot: ppl in a box !!!
    Rish Bleriot: that talk !!
    arabella Ella: but there you give an example with a product, an object
    arabella Ella: the caveman has not got the concept of TV
    Adelene Dawner: Interesting as this is, I need to get back to work. See you all later :)
    Rish Bleriot: the concept applies to things that are not well understood
    arabella Ella: just as we do not have concepts which ppl in prehistoric times had
    Rish Bleriot: cya adelene
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ade, great seeing you:)
    arabella Ella: bye Adelene
    Rish Bleriot: exactly ara ... and we have not got the concept of ghosts
    Rish Bleriot: so they appear supernatural to us
    Rish Bleriot: but maybe one day we will know how it works ?
    arabella Ella: perhaps I do ... speak for yourself ... many ppl do
    Rish Bleriot: so where do u think they come from ??
    arabella Ella: when i speak of supernatural events i am referring to events such as what are considered to be miracles in the new testament
    Rish Bleriot: like ?
    arabella Ella: oh come on you know what i mean
    arabella Ella: people with terminal illnesses with no hope being suddenly cured
    Rish Bleriot: well .... im a thoroughly unreligious creature ara :)
    arabella Ella: with no rational explanation
    Rish Bleriot: not rational in the present context perhaps
    Rish Bleriot: or the context of those times
    arabella Ella: even medics often ceretify that there is no rational explanation ... or scientific either
    Rish Bleriot: but maybe ... we will have the answers some day ...
    arabella Ella: where are you Rish?
    Rish Bleriot: but medics dont know everything ...do they ?
    Rish Bleriot: where on earth u mean ?
    arabella Ella: no one knows everything ... i doubt we ever will
    arabella Ella: yes :)
    Rish Bleriot: new delhi ...india
    Rish Bleriot: and u ?
    arabella Ella: malta
    Rish Bleriot: well ... the frontiers of knowledge extend ... slowly ...
    Rish Bleriot: we know more than we used to
    Rish Bleriot: so extrapolating from that ... we will know more than we know now in future ?
    arabella Ella: yes but there are some topics which the human brain may never be up to understanding ... like infinity for example
    Rish Bleriot: or it might :)
    Rish Bleriot: can we say we never will ???
    arabella Ella: no ... never say never ... I used the word 'may'
    Rish Bleriot: yep agree there .... neve say never
    arabella Ella: but we do know that our brains have limitations ... as u said earlier
    arabella Ella: mainly as Kant showed us
    Rish Bleriot: but kant didnt know everything either
    arabella Ella: that our brains cannot conceive of anything outside space and time
    Rish Bleriot: no ... i wdnt agree
    arabella Ella: i did not say Kant knew everything
    arabella Ella: why not?
    Rish Bleriot: he might be proven wrong ... some new abilities may surface .... the brain evolves too ...
    Rish Bleriot: and then it is said we use just 10% of our brains
    arabella Ella: yes
    Rish Bleriot: so maybe some day we will use ...80-90%
    arabella Ella: and we have more than 10 billion neurons in our brains :)
    Rish Bleriot: and know more
    arabella Ella: maybe
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night, see yoy again
    Rish Bleriot: nite scath
    arabella Ella: bye Scath
    arabella Ella: i must go too
    Rish Bleriot: ciao ..
    arabella Ella: nite Rish thanks for the chat
    arabella Ella: ciao
    Rish Bleriot: nite ara

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