2009.05.03 07:00 - Beeing Seeing and Meditation

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

    This was two sessions. First we discussed different ways of seeing and then meditation

    Adams Rubble: Hello Wol :)
    Wol Euler: hiya
    Adams Rubble: Nice to see you this morning (afternoon)
    Wol Euler: likewise :)
    Wol Euler: thoughj I fear I will have to step out shortly for a half hour
    Wol Euler: I lost track of time and foolishly started cooking lunch
    Adams Rubble: well, it is not so foolish to start lunch :)
    Wol Euler: yeah, but I wante to be here.
    Adams Rubble: eating is important too
    Wol Euler: I'd been waiting for this, then forgot to look at the clock :(
    Adams Rubble: oh
    Adams Rubble: Eating is like knowledge to the soul ( or something like that)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    sophia Placebo: hi adams
    sophia Placebo: hi wol
    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    Adams Rubble: we were just discussing lunch :)
    sophia Placebo: :))
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    I throw out a thought about seeing
    Adams Rubble: I was sitting out yesterday watching the appearance of the wind blow around the leaves on a bush
    Adams Rubble: and a bee flew by
    Adams Rubble: and I started thinking about how different species view the world so differently
    Wol Euler nods
    Adams Rubble: the cat is aware of the moouse in the wood pile
    Adams Rubble: the dog smells the rabbit trail
    Adams Rubble: insects see multiple views of the world
    Adams Rubble: even when we are closely watching our senses
    Wol Euler: and a tiny world at that, probably. Do they even know that the mountain over there exists?
    Adams Rubble: we are stoill limited of how much reality we can see
    Adams Rubble: but do we know the rabbit and mouse exist in our little world?
    Adams Rubble: Hello Qt :)
    Wol Euler: hello qt
    sophia Placebo: hi Qt
    Adams Rubble watching Sophia's cool glasses
    sophia Placebo: thank you :)
    Wol Euler: )
    Qt Core: glasses seem to be the cool thing of last week i've seen many of them around
    Qt Core: (but no a nice male one)
    Adams Rubble: oh there are some :)
    sophia Placebo: i guess there are many cool male glasses
    Qt Core: (maybe it is that i didn't really went searching ;-) )
    Adams Rubble: Just many fewer male stores
    sophia Placebo: brb
    Wol Euler: like in RL
    Wol Euler: men have fewer and less exciting choices
    Wol Euler: in both worlds, it seems to me
    Qt Core: thanks god, it take ages for me to buy something than i have to rush when i really need it)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Qt Core: (especially shoes)
    Adams Rubble wonders about Wol's tag
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Wol Euler: a mystery...
    Wol Euler: oh, but I must go! timer just went, lunch is ready.
    Wol Euler: I'll be back in 30 mins or so
    Adams Rubble: have a good lunch :)
    Wol Euler: bye for now
    Adams Rubble: bye
    Adams Rubble: that was why we were discussing lunch earlier :)
    Adams Rubble: anyone have anything they would like to discuss?
    Qt Core: and i lost a food discussion ?ach
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Adams Rubble: we were discussing earlier different ways of seeing by different species
    Adams Rubble: we do not sense the world in the same way
    Adams Rubble: so maybe none of sense reality
    Adams Rubble: in its totality
    Adams Rubble: of course we do not see we are carbon, oxygen and hydrogen either
    Qt Core: the little ant may not known about the far mountains, but we (humans) don't know all about the pebbles
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Adams Rubble: or what is underneath
    Qt Core: (and that is only speaking about things that we both could feel
    sophia Placebo: back
    Adams Rubble nods
    Adams Rubble: wb Sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: ty:)
    Qt adds some great examples
    Qt Core: (i always tought it would be cool to have the sonar habilities of bats/dolphins)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: Of course we can get night vision goggles
    Qt Core: yes, but a sonar is 360 degrees awareness of your surrounding
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Qt Core: that's the cool part
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: yes, that is cool
    sophia Placebo: im not sure if it is cool, kindda confusing and i had a feeling that it causes headch
    Adams Rubble: that is the purpose of the fly's eye, isn't it? to see around?
    Qt Core: i've saw some doumentaries saying the dolphin sonar is soo good they can scan oneth fishes anatomy and know if they are going to go up or down when they hunt
    Adams Rubble: well, it might for us. hehe
    Qt Core: other*
    Adams Rubble: wow
    Qt Core: or use it as a weapon and stun the litttler ones
    Qt Core: smaller (wher is my english gone today ?)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Fefonz :)
    Qt Core: hi Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: hello all :)
    Adams Rubble: So we are seemingly finding out that the differences in sensing the world is for fairly narrow feeding habits
    Qt Core: or not being the food ;-)
    Adams Rubble: yes Qt :)
    sophia Placebo: hi fef
    Adams Rubble: I am just wondering what all that may have to say about our own seeing
    Adams Rubble: Is that part of the idea that what we see is not real?
    Qt Core: it is just not all that exist
    Qt Core: (at least)
    Adams Rubble: yes, it is that
    Qt Core: thinking about getting an agreement bwtween two intelligent species with completely different sensorial organs about .... whatever
    Wol Euler: hello again
    Adams Rubble: Welcome back Wol :)
    Qt Core: wb Wol
    sophia Placebo: *:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
    sophia Placebo: wol
    Wol Euler: ty
    Adams Rubble: yes, that would be fun if we could, wouldn't it Qt
    sophia Placebo: funny Qt
    Fefonz Quan: even agreements between two (alegedly inteligent) similar species are hard, as history shows
    Qt Core: i think that we will see then if abstract ideas are really so abstract ;-)
    Wol Euler: ty
    Fefonz Quan: hi Wol
    Adams Rubble: To carry this a little further....
    humanity seeing
    Adams Rubble: Then our "seeing" that brings us closer to humanity than to reality?
    Adams Rubble: drop the word "that"
    Fefonz Quan: that is for sure
    Qt Core: or our seeing is just our humanity ?
    Fefonz Quan: humanity as' just being human specimen' not necessarily humanity as moral beings
    Adams Rubble: yes, no morality
    Qt Core: agreed
    Adams Rubble: just mortality
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fefonz Quan: well, the bees and flies got that too
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Adams Rubble: yes Fef
    Qt Core: yes, but with deir different way of seeing the world it isn't humanity it is beeity
    Qt Core: their*
    Wol Euler: :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    beeing seeing :)
    Fefonz Quan: beeing
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Qt Core: (are we back to seeing the being and being the seeing ?
    Qt Core: )
    Fefonz Quan: did we ever leave that one ;-)
    Qt Core: (sometime be think)
    Qt Core: we
    Adams Rubble: Well presumbably Being seeing includes more than humanity seeing
    Adams Rubble: Hello Scath :)
    Qt Core: hi Scath
    sophia Placebo: hi scath
    Wol Euler: I always thought Being Seeing was presumed to be the truth of what was Out There.
    Wol Euler: helo scath
    Wol Euler: or an attempt to arrive at that...
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams, QT Sophia, Wol, Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: 9in fact we didnt really hey scath
    Qt Core: why the need of the "Out" part ?
    Wol Euler: out there as opposed to "in here with my thoughts and perceptions"
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty Adams:)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Syl :)
    Wol Euler: hello syl
    Qt Core: hi sylectra
    Sylectra Darwin: Greetings! Good to find you all here :)
    Wol Euler: ooh, a very dramatic look today.
    Sylectra Darwin: I've been having fun with this artsy new skin.
    Adams Rubble: nice Syl :)
    Fefonz Quan: hi Syl
    Sylectra Darwin: thank you
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sylectra
    sophia Placebo: artstic
    Wol Euler: very striking.
    Sylectra Darwin: hehe, that's what Pema said the other day!
    Sylectra Darwin: So what have you guys been talking about?
    Fefonz Quan: [7:48] Wol Euler: out there as opposed to "in here with my thoughts and perceptions"
    Adams Rubble: I am not sureBeing Seeing is so much getting at the truth as seeing our limitations
    Fefonz Quan: i would think this is a wrong view, as much as te other one
    Fefonz Quan: (the out there)
    Wol Euler: yes, that was badly expressed, orry
    Adams Rubble: yes Fef
    Wol Euler: +s
    Sylectra Darwin: great observations
    Adams Rubble: Syl we are talking about the limitations of our senses to see reality
    Sylectra Darwin: nods
    Fefonz Quan: i thin Being seeing is not about our limitations, but about open to broader ways of knowing/perception
    Fefonz Quan: think*
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Adams Rubble: yes, that turns it around fef
    Sylectra Darwin: that's a neat way of looking at it.
    Sylectra Darwin: I am somewhat new to this kind of thinking, so it helps me to not set a concrete goal; rather, to practice moving towards the goal rather than trying to hit it. This is similar to what Fefonz said.

     Here the conversation shifted to meditation

    Sylectra Darwin: I read a basic book about one journalist's first experience at a meditation retreat, and how she struggled to get into the frame of mind everyone else seemed to be slipping into with no trouble.
    Sylectra Darwin: The harder she tried to achieve that goal of mindful and quiet observation, of course the harder the goal became to attain.
    Fefonz Quan: if she stopped struggling it would work ;)
    Sylectra Darwin: indeed! hehe
    Sylectra Darwin: Many things in life are like that, not just meditation.
    Wol Euler nods
    Adams Rubble nods
    Fefonz Quan: sure, or else meditation was just a nice game
    Sylectra Darwin: How many of you guys have used some of your newly learned meditation techniques for other things in your life, like maybe weight loss, or concentrating on the job?
    Wol Euler: definitely :) it is very useful in the office

    hiccups :)

    Qt Core: i use it for hiccup control ;-)
    Wol Euler: stepping away from stress and hectic
    Sylectra Darwin: hiccup control! LOL
    Sylectra Darwin: I use it in conversation when it's important to me that I fully listen to the other person.
    Fefonz Quan: yes Qt that's impressive1
    Fefonz Quan: (shift1*)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: just shifts you point of view ;)
    Qt Core: :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fefonz Quan: in fact it is useful for mental hiccups too
    Wol Euler smiles and nods
    Sylectra Darwin: Fefonz, what do you mean?
    Fefonz Quan: annoyning thoughts that jump up periodically to disturb your day
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Oh yeah :)
    Fefonz Quan: reacurring patterns of behavior/feelings
    Sylectra Darwin: Fefonz, can you describe how you would notice and then effectively deal with those mental hiccups?
    Fefonz Quan: well, the first step i guess is to observe them and see they exist
    Fefonz Quan: so some mindfullness is a tool here
    Fefonz Quan: then some acceptance and calmness and being with what one feels sometimes opens new options, and allow the pattern to change hopefully
    Fefonz Quan: seeing it as different from yourself also helps
    Sylectra Darwin: nods
    sophia Placebo: agree fef on acceptance and calmness
    Fefonz Quan: and at least from my experience,, it's a long road, so no instant solutions ;-)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Sylectra Darwin: understood.
    Fefonz Quan: we are the slow cooking workshop :) (or maybe others may claim differently. slow takes time into consideration ;-0)
    sophia Placebo: meditation works well too at times of brain holidays :) apperantly
    Fefonz Quan: brain holidays Sophia?
    sophia Placebo: complete mind blockage or thinking risitant or lazyness
    sophia Placebo: apathy sometimes
    sophia Placebo: resistance*
    Wol Euler: or from fear/anger ...
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Wol Euler: though the word "holiday" doesn't fit so well there
    Fefonz Quan: (thats what i thought Wol)
    Fefonz Quan: vacations maybe
    sophia Placebo: but i guess it is more or less a women thing -more related to mestrual cycle
    Fefonz Quan: sure, male brains work all the time ;-)
    Wol Euler snorts
    Sylectra Darwin: I wouldn't necessarily assume that, Sophia. We've all been victims of our own mental/emotional loops sometimes.
    sophia Placebo: not all the time fef
    Wol Euler: any woman can turn off any man's brain just by smiling at him, Fef :)
    Qt Core: work at the same speed all the time leaving the speed unspoken ;-)
    sophia Placebo: it is PMS sylectra
    Fefonz Quan: yes Wol )
    Sylectra Darwin: I guess what I was thinking is that the habit of having distracting thoughts and emotions is more a result of your personality, life circumstances, and the work you are doing on yourself, than because of hormonal fluctuations.
    Sylectra Darwin: Although hormonal fluctuations can I think put an overlay of intensity on things :)
    Wol Euler nods
    sophia Placebo: i wouldnt ignore my biology :) makes things better if you aknowladge them and accept them and know how to deal with them, most thoughts due to hormonal fluctuation are sad one ,so if a sad thought pass by me in those days i keep it in side me or right it in a note of paper or just tell myself that it could be due to my hormons,after the hormonal surge ended many thoughts sounded silly or unecessary or fade queckly
    Sylectra Darwin: that seems like a healthy way of using that information.
    Fefonz Quan: would work also for just angry periods, if only we could do it
    sophia Placebo: yep
    Sylectra Darwin: In another PaB meeting, there was talk of anger and compassion. The consensus was that you cannot hold both in your emotional state at a time.
    Fefonz Quan: interesting.
    Adams Rubble: We have a chance to grab negative or positive energy from any moment and take it into the next
    Sylectra Darwin: when I was younger, my perception of life was that it was a mostly happy experience, interrupted occasionally by sad or other unpleasant times.
    Fefonz Quan: you can be angry with others not being compasionate as yourself :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Now that I have recently been through three deaths in the family and a divorce, I find that my current perception is that my life seems sad except when I choose to be happy.
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    Sylectra Darwin: Although I may not always feel so sad or angry, and it's likely my outlook will gradually improve, I feel more comfortable with the idea that I choose during each moment whether I wish to be happy.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Wol Euler nods
    Sylectra Darwin: It's not so much making myself be happy though, as letting my happiness take center stage.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Sylectra Darwin: sort of along the lines of what Adams said.
    Adams Rubble notes it actually was Stim who said it :)
    Fefonz Quan: i guess you join a long lineage Adams :)
    Wol Euler: (sorry, I shall have to leave to prepare for anohter meeting. bye everyone, enjoy the day)
    Adams Rubble makes a good parrot
    Adams Rubble: bye Wol :)
    sophia Placebo: bye wol
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Wol :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: byw Wol, see you later
    Fefonz Quan: a parrot that chose well is an inteligent one :)
    sophia Placebo: have to leave myself
    Sylectra Darwin: Well, I'll be going too.
    Adams Rubble: Thank you Fefonz, that was a nice thing to say
    Adams Rubble: bye Sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: bye all
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sophia, see you later
    Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia,
    Fefonz Quan: bye Sylect
    Sylectra Darwin: Have a good day everyone!
    Adams Rubble: bye Syl:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sylectra
    Fefonz Quan: i'll be on my way too. See you later friends1
    Adams Rubble: bye Fef :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Fefonz
    Scathach Rhiadra: I should go too, see you both later maybe
    Adams Rubble: bye Scath :)
    Qt Core: maybe, time to go for me too
    Qt Core: bye scath
    Adams Rubble: bye Qt :)

    And once again we all went our separate ways until a few hours later when Maxine will be there wairting for us

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