2009.05.07 13:00 - Lifting the weight of karma

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Storm Nordwind: Hello Mick
Mickorod Renard: hiya Storm
Mickorod Renard: whats happened to the fountain?
Storm Nordwind: I hid it
Mickorod Renard: he he he

I knelt on one of the 8 central cushions of the 32 cushions present. There was neither pool nor fountain.

Storm Nordwind: watch this
Mickorod Renard: ok
Mickorod Renard: lol
Storm Nordwind smiles
Storm Nordwind: Cosy now
Mickorod Renard: Hi Sophie
Mickorod Renard: yes..but may be short of seats
Storm Nordwind: I can put them back if we need them

I'd hidden the outer 24 cushions. We gossiped for a while.

Mickorod Renard: ok,,have you made it to us of a?
Storm Nordwind: I have my visa. - hooray!!! - but because things ran late, I will need to wait till August to travel now
Mickorod Renard: ok,,well I guess thats not so bad
Storm Nordwind: Hi sophia
sophia Placebo: hi storm
Storm Nordwind: It's fine. There's a Buddhist festival I want to go to with my fiancee and I couldn't get travel docs in time. So I'll wait till after and we'll fly to the US together on around 10th August

Mick told us of a recent experience he had at a Buddhist centre.

Mickorod Renard: cool. I went to a budhist day in derbyshire last saturday...I was a little disapointed
Storm Nordwind: Why disappointed?
Mickorod Renard: well, I dont want to say anything unkind,,I guess some of it was down to my bad hearing
Mickorod Renard: hi Rish
sophia Placebo: hello rish
Rish Bleriot: hi all
Mickorod Renard: I think I get more from comming here and Kira
Storm Nordwind: Hi Rish
Storm Nordwind: Cool :)
Mickorod Renard: coming
Rish Bleriot: isnt it a bit smaller today ?
Storm Nordwind smiles. Yes it is
sophia Placebo: hello fef
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fef
Storm Nordwind: Ah Mr. Quan. How are you?
Fefonz Quan: Hello Mick, Storm, Sophia, Ara
Fefonz Quan: and Rish
Rish Bleriot: hi fef
Fefonz Quan: its a small chosen group today :)
Storm Nordwind: So I find that interesting and encouraging Mick. I guess we're doing something right! :)
Storm Nordwind: Handpicked Fef!
Mickorod Renard: well, i am not an expert in these things, but from a personal point I find this much more informal
Storm Nordwind: Does formality put you off?
Mickorod Renard: well, i didnt want to get too sucked into the whole budhist thing
Mickorod Renard: and it got a little too heavy
Storm Nordwind: I suspect there are many different flavours!
Storm Nordwind will not ask which group (if any) it was!
Storm Nordwind: But there is certainly an intimacy here
Mickorod Renard: It was to do with the new Kadampa tradition
Storm Nordwind: Although my Buddhist group (at least the one I'm leaving behind in Glasgow - which is Kadampa) is very warm and not anything that sucks anyone in! :)
Storm Nordwind: Hello Northern
sophia Placebo: hi north
Northern Forder: hi
Rish Bleriot: hi north
Fefonz Quan: Hi Northern
Mickorod Renard: well, I enjoyed the morning as that was about Karma,,but the afternoon became too commercial,,and too deep
Storm Nordwind: Commerical AND deep? Wow!
Fefonz Quan: mick, sometimes it's hard to dive in quickly...
Fefonz Quan: (Storm, that concept can be useful, isan't it?)
Mickorod Renard: well I wasnt trying to get in too quick,,that was my issue
Storm Nordwind: The nice thing about some paths is that you can take them or leave them, in part or in whole. That seems to me to be a mature way to do things
Mickorod Renard: and they seemed to be selling the idea of all the diferent budha's like as though they were pokamon cards
Fefonz Quan: yey, they have a colorful panteon

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Storm Nordwind: Hmm... I'm not aware of the cards of which you speak! But Tibetan Buddhisms have many deities. That appeals to some not others. As an ex-heathen, I like the polytheist similarities! :)
Mickorod Renard: the idea of going ,,for me anyway,,was to clear out all the rubbish in my head from the past....but i think a steam cleaner is the only thing that will work
Storm Nordwind passes Mick a card for contract steam cleaning.

We talked about the idea of karma

Mickorod Renard: but the karma thing was good,,and fits in nice with what we do here and with Stim too
Storm Nordwind: They have a very good grasp of karma, in my humble experience
Fefonz Quan: yes, i think so too from my short experience with them.
Northern Forder: bye
Mickorod Renard: I was suprised to hear that karma is effected by previous life and future life too
sophia Placebo: hi gen
Storm Nordwind: Hi gen
Mickorod Renard: Hi Gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Fefonz Quan: by future lifes? that;s new
Rish Bleriot: hi gen
Fefonz Quan: Hey Gen :)
Storm Nordwind: perhaps you can explain Mick
Mickorod Renard: me?,,no way
Storm Nordwind smiles
Fefonz Quan: :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Mickorod Renard: but in some small way from an angle of past lives,,it almost makes you want to give up,,as you cant really address something you dont remember

I knew that the idea of karma can sometimes make people dispair with the potential weight of past actions. But it is not written in stone as completely as they think.

Storm Nordwind: ah yes you can
Storm Nordwind: That is the point
Storm Nordwind: There are two main ways
Mickorod Renard: /
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Storm Nordwind: Firstly in your attitude towards karma that is ripening now.
Storm Nordwind: But secondly...
Storm Nordwind: you can purify that which has not ripened - if you know how
Mickorod Renard: mmmmm? I see..or rather maybe dont
Storm Nordwind: That is a principle known widely in various Buddhisms
Storm Nordwind: And there are various methods
Fefonz Quan: can you tell how? (without getting too much into tantra practices)
Storm Nordwind: But I recommend researching something called the "Four Opponent Powers" or similarly named things
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I think I have seen reference to them before
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: I suspect it's outside normal PaB topics, but worth researching

Fefonz lightened the mood in his inimitable way!

Fefonz Quan: (Just reminded of a joke: There are three kinds of people: those who know how to count and those that don't)
Storm Nordwind: And of course, as Fef implies, there are tantric ways too
Mickorod Renard: he he he ,,thats a good one Fef
Rish Bleriot: very mysterious ...
Storm Nordwind: No Fef. There are 10 kinds of people. Those who know binary, and those who don't.
Fefonz Quan: yep :) that was my next one. this is even more geekier
Rish Bleriot: actually there are 3 types of ppl ...... those who can count ... and those who cant ...
Fefonz Quan: didn't i just write it Rish?
Mickorod Renard: ;-)

We returned, light headed, to the subject of karma

genesis Zhangsun: uh dare I ask why we are concerned about Mick's past lives?
Fefonz Quan: Mick has been to a buddhist lesson and found out he had one :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I think they were very bad
Rish Bleriot: oh yes u did ... wasnt paying attn to what u were typing fef :) ...sorry
genesis Zhangsun: how did you find out you had one?
genesis Zhangsun: (sorry if this is a repeat)
Mickorod Renard: by all the bad karma
Mickorod Renard: joking
Fefonz Quan: (So: there are people who says everything twice. everything twice...)
Mickorod Renard: pardon,,i have bad hearing
genesis Zhangsun: you know its funny but I don't really think about karma in terms of past lives specifically
Fefonz Quan: yes, me neither
Storm Nordwind: Does that mean you don't think about it, or you think about it differently?
Fefonz Quan: differently

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Mickorod Renard: I think I will let the past lives worry about themselves
Mickorod Renard: oops

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genesis Zhangsun: I see it it as cause and effect and what is behind co dependent arising
Mickorod Renard: lol,,what does that mean?
Storm Nordwind smiles
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: what do you think Mick?
Mickorod Renard: mmmmmmmm
Fefonz Quan: cause and effect, indeed, and mostly i consider the mind realm regarding it
genesis Zhangsun: what do you mean the mind realm regarding it?
Mickorod Renard: I would say that that applies to all karma?
Fefonz Quan: when i think about karma in my daily life, i can see how there are actions and thought that effect my mind, and surely will cause me to experience thigns in the future differently
Storm Nordwind: By extension, the way you see things now and your capacity to see things is entirely dependent on your karma, your past thoughts, words and deeds (or least according to the theory! ;)
genesis Zhangsun: yes the ordinary mind
genesis Zhangsun: I wonder if there is some other mind unaffected by karma?
genesis Zhangsun: what do you think?
Storm Nordwind: The mental factor of feeling is omnipresent and is there just to experience karma. Many others do not. That is not their function I would say.
Storm Nordwind: But the capacity of your awareness of those other minds would still be affected by karma
Storm Nordwind: At least, that's the theory ;)
genesis Zhangsun: You know Stim always says that everyone has the ability, the capacity to acess the higher mind
genesis Zhangsun: it is not beyond the reach of any person
sophia Placebo: hello ara
genesis Zhangsun: I like that democratic kind of a view :)
Storm Nordwind: "The" higher mind? There is only one?
Fefonz Quan: So why don't they Gen?
Mickorod Renard: hiya ara
Storm Nordwind: Hi Ara
arabella Ella: Hiya
Fefonz Quan: hey Ara
genesis Zhangsun: not sure Storm how many minds are you aware of?
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Ara
arabella Ella: I was reading today that we can have many minds ...
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Storm Nordwind: I have no evidence that I could present to anyone that any mind I am aware of is the same as any you are aware of
genesis Zhangsun: You know Fefonz I don't know but maybe we all are
genesis Zhangsun: already
genesis Zhangsun: maybe not all the time
genesis Zhangsun: hmm interesting well I just meant higher mind as maybe what correlates to "buddha nature"
genesis Zhangsun: the true self
genesis Zhangsun: the non judging mind
genesis Zhangsun: the completion mind
Mickorod Renard: what were those minds you refered to Ara?
arabella Ella: Hiya sorry ....
Fefonz Quan: (without mind - nothing matters, without matter - nevermind) :)
arabella Ella: just read a very short bit ... seems that it is a hypothesis of a british psychologist ... but did not really learn why he has this claim
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Fefonz Quan: completion - is it a buddhist term Gen?
arabella Ella: not sure if this is right but i think he distinguishes our rational mind from our emotional mind ... and others ... cant remember what they were

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Mickorod Renard: well, I think something like Karma exists,,and its a good way to become a nicer person
Mickorod Renard: oops

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genesis Zhangsun: I agree it is exists too Mick
genesis Zhangsun: and I agree it is useful
genesis Zhangsun: but I also wonder if the way to transcend karma is by using a "mind" that only operates under karma
Fefonz Quan: what do you mean 'opertaes under'?
Mickorod Renard: maybe not,,I became aware of a sort of realisation,,before i knew of karma
Storm Nordwind: I suspect there are many ways, Gen, including tantric ways which can indeed do that
genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed Storm I am sure there are many ways :)
genesis Zhangsun: Fefonz by operating under
genesis Zhangsun: I just mean look at our regular life
genesis Zhangsun: the things you have mentioned
genesis Zhangsun: what is your mind doing, it is collecting experiences and then seeing other experiences in light of the past
genesis Zhangsun: past which is known to us and perhaps even a past unknown to us
genesis Zhangsun: how does that mind which is doing the collecting, the judging transcend those things?
Storm Nordwind: bit by bit!
genesis Zhangsun: it is a fish in water scenario
Fefonz Quan: ??
Mickorod Renard: I think there can be a partial way through a redirection of ethics
Fefonz Quan: blub blub blub?
genesis Zhangsun: yes that is interesting Mick
genesis Zhangsun: ethics surely is one way
Storm Nordwind: By bringing the result into the path
Fefonz Quan: (didn't get the fish stuff)
genesis Zhangsun: you could call that result as informed by "higher mind"
genesis Zhangsun: a fish never sees the water around it much like the ordinary mind hardly notices a higher mind in which it operates
Fefonz Quan: First, the mind can stop creating more of those harmful things
Storm Nordwind: The fish still feels the effect of the water though
Fefonz Quan: (he sees the bubbles)
genesis Zhangsun: exactly but what it does notice, like the fish are the movements
Storm Nordwind: He feels the current
Mickorod Renard: well,,we are conditioned from young expectations to follow a way of life that is selfish
genesis Zhangsun: just as the ordinary mind sees the discrepanies between its thoughts and the higher mind
genesis Zhangsun: we feel dissapointed,
genesis Zhangsun: we feel angry
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: those are mind movements
genesis Zhangsun: they can tell us a lot about why we see such a discrepancy
Storm Nordwind: You are assuming we dwell on any such discrepancy
Fefonz Quan: because we fight the current instead of letting it carry us
genesis Zhangsun: yes this assumes awareness
Storm Nordwind: What is the point. Why not simply be aware of what is worth being aware of? Then no tension
genesis Zhangsun: no tension between?
genesis Zhangsun: between what?
Storm Nordwind: This discrepancy that you mentioned that you say leads to anger
Mickorod Renard: that is the point,,and there are diferent ways of discovering them
genesis Zhangsun: no no the discrepancy does not lead to anger
genesis Zhangsun: anger is the discrepancy
Storm Nordwind has no time for anger
Mickorod Renard: yea,,the point i meant was finding ways to reduce or eliminate the tension
genesis Zhangsun: what is the point Mick?
Mickorod Renard: that that storm had made
Storm Nordwind respectfully points out that Stim's workshop starts in 3 minutes
Mickorod Renard: What is the point. Why not simply be aware of what is worth being aware of? Then no tension
genesis Zhangsun: the process of seeing discrepanies is the process of awareness that Storm mentions
genesis Zhangsun: it is part of it
genesis Zhangsun: there is no need for tension certainly
genesis Zhangsun: just recognition
Mickorod Renard: yes
genesis Zhangsun: about what those things tells us
genesis Zhangsun: about ourselves
genesis Zhangsun: about reality
Fefonz Quan: when the tension arise, it might be useful to look for its causes, the seeds of karma if you like
genesis Zhangsun: yes karma is instructive
Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats a good point Fef
arabella Ella: i will be off to Kira now ... bye for now

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genesis Zhangsun: bye!
Mickorod Renard: c u soon
Fefonz Quan: and to see that sometimes the cause for the tension is deeper than the immediate one

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Mickorod Renard: ok,,lets hit the Kira
Fefonz Quan: yep Bye Sophia
Mickorod Renard: bye Sophie