2009.05.07 13:00 - Lifting the weight of karma

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

    Storm Nordwind: Hello Mick
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Storm
    Mickorod Renard: whats happened to the fountain?
    Storm Nordwind: I hid it
    Mickorod Renard: he he he

    I knelt on one of the 8 central cushions of the 32 cushions present. There was neither pool nor fountain.

    Storm Nordwind: watch this
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Mickorod Renard: lol
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Storm Nordwind: Cosy now
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Sophie
    Mickorod Renard: yes..but may be short of seats
    Storm Nordwind: I can put them back if we need them

    I'd hidden the outer 24 cushions. We gossiped for a while.

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,have you made it to us of a?
    Storm Nordwind: I have my visa. - hooray!!! - but because things ran late, I will need to wait till August to travel now
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,well I guess thats not so bad
    Storm Nordwind: Hi sophia
    sophia Placebo: hi storm
    Storm Nordwind: It's fine. There's a Buddhist festival I want to go to with my fiancee and I couldn't get travel docs in time. So I'll wait till after and we'll fly to the US together on around 10th August

    Mick told us of a recent experience he had at a Buddhist centre.

    Mickorod Renard: cool. I went to a budhist day in derbyshire last saturday...I was a little disapointed
    Storm Nordwind: Why disappointed?
    Mickorod Renard: well, I dont want to say anything unkind,,I guess some of it was down to my bad hearing
    Mickorod Renard: hi Rish
    sophia Placebo: hello rish
    Rish Bleriot: hi all
    Mickorod Renard: I think I get more from comming here and Kira
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Rish
    Storm Nordwind: Cool :)
    Mickorod Renard: coming
    Rish Bleriot: isnt it a bit smaller today ?
    Storm Nordwind smiles. Yes it is
    sophia Placebo: hello fef
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fef
    Storm Nordwind: Ah Mr. Quan. How are you?
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Mick, Storm, Sophia, Ara
    Fefonz Quan: and Rish
    Rish Bleriot: hi fef
    Fefonz Quan: its a small chosen group today :)
    Storm Nordwind: So I find that interesting and encouraging Mick. I guess we're doing something right! :)
    Storm Nordwind: Handpicked Fef!
    Mickorod Renard: well, i am not an expert in these things, but from a personal point I find this much more informal
    Storm Nordwind: Does formality put you off?
    Mickorod Renard: well, i didnt want to get too sucked into the whole budhist thing
    Mickorod Renard: and it got a little too heavy
    Storm Nordwind: I suspect there are many different flavours!
    Storm Nordwind will not ask which group (if any) it was!
    Storm Nordwind: But there is certainly an intimacy here
    Mickorod Renard: It was to do with the new Kadampa tradition
    Storm Nordwind: Although my Buddhist group (at least the one I'm leaving behind in Glasgow - which is Kadampa) is very warm and not anything that sucks anyone in! :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Northern
    sophia Placebo: hi north
    Northern Forder: hi
    Rish Bleriot: hi north
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Northern
    Mickorod Renard: well, I enjoyed the morning as that was about Karma,,but the afternoon became too commercial,,and too deep
    Storm Nordwind: Commerical AND deep? Wow!
    Fefonz Quan: mick, sometimes it's hard to dive in quickly...
    Fefonz Quan: (Storm, that concept can be useful, isan't it?)
    Mickorod Renard: well I wasnt trying to get in too quick,,that was my issue
    Storm Nordwind: The nice thing about some paths is that you can take them or leave them, in part or in whole. That seems to me to be a mature way to do things
    Mickorod Renard: and they seemed to be selling the idea of all the diferent budha's like as though they were pokamon cards
    Fefonz Quan: yey, they have a colorful panteon

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    Storm Nordwind: Hmm... I'm not aware of the cards of which you speak! But Tibetan Buddhisms have many deities. That appeals to some not others. As an ex-heathen, I like the polytheist similarities! :)
    Mickorod Renard: the idea of going ,,for me anyway,,was to clear out all the rubbish in my head from the past....but i think a steam cleaner is the only thing that will work
    Storm Nordwind passes Mick a card for contract steam cleaning.


    We talked about the idea of karma

    Mickorod Renard: but the karma thing was good,,and fits in nice with what we do here and with Stim too
    Storm Nordwind: They have a very good grasp of karma, in my humble experience
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i think so too from my short experience with them.
    Northern Forder: bye
    Mickorod Renard: I was suprised to hear that karma is effected by previous life and future life too
    sophia Placebo: hi gen
    Storm Nordwind: Hi gen
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
    Fefonz Quan: by future lifes? that;s new
    Rish Bleriot: hi gen
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Gen :)
    Storm Nordwind: perhaps you can explain Mick
    Mickorod Renard: me?,,no way
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Mickorod Renard: but in some small way from an angle of past lives,,it almost makes you want to give up,,as you cant really address something you dont remember

    I knew that the idea of karma can sometimes make people dispair with the potential weight of past actions. But it is not written in stone as completely as they think.

    Storm Nordwind: ah yes you can
    Storm Nordwind: That is the point
    Storm Nordwind: There are two main ways
    Mickorod Renard: /
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Storm Nordwind: Firstly in your attitude towards karma that is ripening now.
    Storm Nordwind: But secondly...
    Storm Nordwind: you can purify that which has not ripened - if you know how
    Mickorod Renard: mmmmm? I see..or rather maybe dont
    Storm Nordwind: That is a principle known widely in various Buddhisms
    Storm Nordwind: And there are various methods
    Fefonz Quan: can you tell how? (without getting too much into tantra practices)
    Storm Nordwind: But I recommend researching something called the "Four Opponent Powers" or similarly named things
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I think I have seen reference to them before
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Storm Nordwind: I suspect it's outside normal PaB topics, but worth researching

    Fefonz lightened the mood in his inimitable way!

    Fefonz Quan: (Just reminded of a joke: There are three kinds of people: those who know how to count and those that don't)
    Storm Nordwind: And of course, as Fef implies, there are tantric ways too
    Mickorod Renard: he he he ,,thats a good one Fef
    Rish Bleriot: very mysterious ...
    Storm Nordwind: No Fef. There are 10 kinds of people. Those who know binary, and those who don't.
    Fefonz Quan: yep :) that was my next one. this is even more geekier
    Rish Bleriot: actually there are 3 types of ppl ...... those who can count ... and those who cant ...
    Fefonz Quan: didn't i just write it Rish?
    Mickorod Renard: ;-)

    We returned, light headed, to the subject of karma

    genesis Zhangsun: uh dare I ask why we are concerned about Mick's past lives?
    Fefonz Quan: Mick has been to a buddhist lesson and found out he had one :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I think they were very bad
    Rish Bleriot: oh yes u did ... wasnt paying attn to what u were typing fef :) ...sorry
    genesis Zhangsun: how did you find out you had one?
    genesis Zhangsun: (sorry if this is a repeat)
    Mickorod Renard: by all the bad karma
    Mickorod Renard: joking
    Fefonz Quan: (So: there are people who says everything twice. everything twice...)
    Mickorod Renard: pardon,,i have bad hearing
    genesis Zhangsun: you know its funny but I don't really think about karma in terms of past lives specifically
    Fefonz Quan: yes, me neither
    Storm Nordwind: Does that mean you don't think about it, or you think about it differently?
    Fefonz Quan: differently

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    Mickorod Renard: I think I will let the past lives worry about themselves
    Mickorod Renard: oops

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    genesis Zhangsun: I see it it as cause and effect and what is behind co dependent arising
    Mickorod Renard: lol,,what does that mean?
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: what do you think Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: mmmmmmmm
    Fefonz Quan: cause and effect, indeed, and mostly i consider the mind realm regarding it
    genesis Zhangsun: what do you mean the mind realm regarding it?
    Mickorod Renard: I would say that that applies to all karma?
    Fefonz Quan: when i think about karma in my daily life, i can see how there are actions and thought that effect my mind, and surely will cause me to experience thigns in the future differently
    Storm Nordwind: By extension, the way you see things now and your capacity to see things is entirely dependent on your karma, your past thoughts, words and deeds (or least according to the theory! ;)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes the ordinary mind
    genesis Zhangsun: I wonder if there is some other mind unaffected by karma?
    genesis Zhangsun: what do you think?
    Storm Nordwind: The mental factor of feeling is omnipresent and is there just to experience karma. Many others do not. That is not their function I would say.
    Storm Nordwind: But the capacity of your awareness of those other minds would still be affected by karma
    Storm Nordwind: At least, that's the theory ;)
    genesis Zhangsun: You know Stim always says that everyone has the ability, the capacity to acess the higher mind
    genesis Zhangsun: it is not beyond the reach of any person
    sophia Placebo: hello ara
    genesis Zhangsun: I like that democratic kind of a view :)
    Storm Nordwind: "The" higher mind? There is only one?
    Fefonz Quan: So why don't they Gen?
    Mickorod Renard: hiya ara
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Fefonz Quan: hey Ara
    genesis Zhangsun: not sure Storm how many minds are you aware of?
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Ara
    arabella Ella: I was reading today that we can have many minds ...
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Storm Nordwind: I have no evidence that I could present to anyone that any mind I am aware of is the same as any you are aware of
    genesis Zhangsun: You know Fefonz I don't know but maybe we all are
    genesis Zhangsun: already
    genesis Zhangsun: maybe not all the time
    genesis Zhangsun: hmm interesting well I just meant higher mind as maybe what correlates to "buddha nature"
    genesis Zhangsun: the true self
    genesis Zhangsun: the non judging mind
    genesis Zhangsun: the completion mind
    Mickorod Renard: what were those minds you refered to Ara?
    arabella Ella: Hiya sorry ....
    Fefonz Quan: (without mind - nothing matters, without matter - nevermind) :)
    arabella Ella: just read a very short bit ... seems that it is a hypothesis of a british psychologist ... but did not really learn why he has this claim
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Fefonz Quan: completion - is it a buddhist term Gen?
    arabella Ella: not sure if this is right but i think he distinguishes our rational mind from our emotional mind ... and others ... cant remember what they were

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    Mickorod Renard: well, I think something like Karma exists,,and its a good way to become a nicer person
    Mickorod Renard: oops

    Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.

    genesis Zhangsun: I agree it is exists too Mick
    genesis Zhangsun: and I agree it is useful
    genesis Zhangsun: but I also wonder if the way to transcend karma is by using a "mind" that only operates under karma
    Fefonz Quan: what do you mean 'opertaes under'?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe not,,I became aware of a sort of realisation,,before i knew of karma
    Storm Nordwind: I suspect there are many ways, Gen, including tantric ways which can indeed do that
    genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed Storm I am sure there are many ways :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Fefonz by operating under
    genesis Zhangsun: I just mean look at our regular life
    genesis Zhangsun: the things you have mentioned
    genesis Zhangsun: what is your mind doing, it is collecting experiences and then seeing other experiences in light of the past
    genesis Zhangsun: past which is known to us and perhaps even a past unknown to us
    genesis Zhangsun: how does that mind which is doing the collecting, the judging transcend those things?
    Storm Nordwind: bit by bit!
    genesis Zhangsun: it is a fish in water scenario
    Fefonz Quan: ??
    Mickorod Renard: I think there can be a partial way through a redirection of ethics
    Fefonz Quan: blub blub blub?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes that is interesting Mick
    genesis Zhangsun: ethics surely is one way
    Storm Nordwind: By bringing the result into the path
    Fefonz Quan: (didn't get the fish stuff)
    genesis Zhangsun: you could call that result as informed by "higher mind"
    genesis Zhangsun: a fish never sees the water around it much like the ordinary mind hardly notices a higher mind in which it operates
    Fefonz Quan: First, the mind can stop creating more of those harmful things
    Storm Nordwind: The fish still feels the effect of the water though
    Fefonz Quan: (he sees the bubbles)
    genesis Zhangsun: exactly but what it does notice, like the fish are the movements
    Storm Nordwind: He feels the current
    Mickorod Renard: well,,we are conditioned from young expectations to follow a way of life that is selfish
    genesis Zhangsun: just as the ordinary mind sees the discrepanies between its thoughts and the higher mind
    genesis Zhangsun: we feel dissapointed,
    genesis Zhangsun: we feel angry
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: those are mind movements
    genesis Zhangsun: they can tell us a lot about why we see such a discrepancy
    Storm Nordwind: You are assuming we dwell on any such discrepancy
    Fefonz Quan: because we fight the current instead of letting it carry us
    genesis Zhangsun: yes this assumes awareness
    Storm Nordwind: What is the point. Why not simply be aware of what is worth being aware of? Then no tension
    genesis Zhangsun: no tension between?
    genesis Zhangsun: between what?
    Storm Nordwind: This discrepancy that you mentioned that you say leads to anger
    Mickorod Renard: that is the point,,and there are diferent ways of discovering them
    genesis Zhangsun: no no the discrepancy does not lead to anger
    genesis Zhangsun: anger is the discrepancy
    Storm Nordwind has no time for anger
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,the point i meant was finding ways to reduce or eliminate the tension
    genesis Zhangsun: what is the point Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: that that storm had made
    Storm Nordwind respectfully points out that Stim's workshop starts in 3 minutes
    Mickorod Renard: What is the point. Why not simply be aware of what is worth being aware of? Then no tension
    genesis Zhangsun: the process of seeing discrepanies is the process of awareness that Storm mentions
    genesis Zhangsun: it is part of it
    genesis Zhangsun: there is no need for tension certainly
    genesis Zhangsun: just recognition
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    genesis Zhangsun: about what those things tells us
    genesis Zhangsun: about ourselves
    genesis Zhangsun: about reality
    Fefonz Quan: when the tension arise, it might be useful to look for its causes, the seeds of karma if you like
    genesis Zhangsun: yes karma is instructive
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats a good point Fef
    arabella Ella: i will be off to Kira now ... bye for now

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    genesis Zhangsun: bye!
    Mickorod Renard: c u soon
    Fefonz Quan: and to see that sometimes the cause for the tension is deeper than the immediate one

    Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,lets hit the Kira
    Fefonz Quan: yep Bye Sophia
    Mickorod Renard: bye Sophie

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