2009.05.13 07:00 - 3 People, 4 Selves

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

    Fefonz Quan: Hello Sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: hello fef
    sophia Placebo: seems quiet here
    Fefonz Quan: yes it is. in fact i suspected i will sit all by myself today
    sophia Placebo: :)
    sophia Placebo: i was thining about intoxication
    Fefonz Quan listens
    sophia Placebo: trying to write something for the ways of knowing workshop
    sophia Placebo: and also preparing for next ramadhan in rl
    Fefonz Quan: (me too)
    Fefonz Quan: when is ramadhan this year?
    sophia Placebo: after 3 and 1/2 month
    Fefonz Quan: september... ok
    sophia Placebo: while i was trying to get the meaning of this word - a wider meaning - i noticed something about poeple im not sure if it was true with me or not
    sophia Placebo: well , let say i was addicted on caffien and lets assume that it hurt me some how
    sophia Placebo: hurts*
    sophia Placebo: i guess , to some extent i would be aware of this
    Fefonz Quan: to the addiction?
    Fefonz Quan: (of the*)
    sophia Placebo: at least , i dont value chocklate over an apple in principle though i usually would choose the choclate not the apple :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, chocolate is good (not only caffein wise)
    sophia Placebo: aware of the side effects or some of them
    sophia Placebo: hi eliza
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi sophia, Fefonz :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I feel that I should be wearng sunglasses:)
    sophia Placebo: i know it is not a strong example for addiction or intoxication but im trying to understand this state of mind
    sophia Placebo: :))
    Fefonz Quan: i think it is a good example
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, discussing WoK workshop?
    Fefonz Quan: discussing small addictions and intoxications, yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal is addicted to caffeine, and unfortunately one can tell that when they read my morning logs sometimes :)
    sophia Placebo: the point is , when i review a discussion in rl or in the net lets say about smoking , many who would replay would mention how good they feel after smoking a ciggare
    Fefonz Quan nods
    sophia Placebo: i guess no one is not aware of what smoking can cause , but among smokers , even a good educated poeple you would find who claim that it is not all components of cigarre
    sophia Placebo: are bad and good ciggars are harmless , i dont want to argue their point from health prespective but i was wandring if this attitude - defending the offensive substance- could be a part of intoxication definition
    Fefonz Quan: i would say it is true.
    Eliza Madrigal: I would say yes, that one often makes justifications which have an element of validity
    Fefonz Quan: on one level it ignores the harmful potential of the addiction, and on the other hand it reduces teh guilt feeling
    sophia Placebo: true
    Fefonz Quan: i am wondering also about the difference betqween intoxication and addiction.
    Eliza Madrigal: I developed the caffeine addiction when going through a time of illness... still had to function and therefore justified it for the time. It is 8 years later however, the illness has subsided, and I'm still using the cafeine as crutch :)
    Fefonz Quan: i guess you can be addicted to things that are totally harmless on teh immediate physical level
    Fefonz Quan: the*
    Fefonz Quan: so are they intoxicating?
    sophia Placebo: me too , tried to seperate them practically but couldnt , most of examples of intoxication that pop up to my head were chronic ones
    Eliza Madrigal: sophia, that is what I found... that one thing leads to another
    Fefonz Quan: well i can say that although not very addicted, i stopped cafeine 3 years ago.
    Eliza Madrigal: : ) Good to hear Fefonz... I hope to do the same
    Fefonz Quan: and harder than this - i stopped sugar, which is one addiction manny people have but don't know it
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, definitely!
    Fefonz Quan: So now drinking tea with no sugar :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: i was addicted to caffeien due to work conditons , less sleep less time to enjoy food , lots of stress , i become aware of it during weekends when i usually dont consume coffe , i found myself wandering in the kitchen opinig and closing the fridge and closests , that was silly cuz i was looking for coffe subcounsously :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... yes, our body has memory
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Eliza Madrigal: There are some patterns that are difficult to break without changing settings...
    Eliza Madrigal: ie people who take smoking breaks at work and such
    sophia Placebo: me too , tea but im still working on the sugar though
    Fefonz Quan: so in what level do you define this addiction asa intoxication?
    Fefonz Quan: as an*
    sophia Placebo: i guess addiction is intoxication
    Eliza Madrigal: I can say that the caffeine makes me 'high'... talkative... wrapped up in a way that isn't quite 'natural'
    Eliza Madrigal: Less able to restrain whatever thoughts pop into my head :)
    sophia Placebo: one creats a new need that is not necessary for him to function and maybe he put it as priority over true needs
    Fefonz Quan: i see eliza. interesting, becasue for me. although i like(d) coffee, i didn't feel its immediate physical effect. i can drink esspresso at 10pm and go to sleep easily at 11pm, no problems
    sophia Placebo: over active eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal nods, sophia. And when it isn't there, one can be reactive... cranky :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So it undermines many things... and I know this.
    Eliza Madrigal: However, I've dropped all sorts of other comfort habits recently....
    Eliza Madrigal: so the caffeine will go too I'm sure
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: :) sure it is not that hard
    Fefonz Quan: i also wondered this week about intoxications that are not 'habit', are they less intoxicating?
    sophia Placebo: like what fef?
    Eliza Madrigal: you mean like having a glass of wine occasionally rather than every night?
    Fefonz Quan: exactly what i thought of Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: I think moderation is often better than restriction...seems healthier
    Eliza Madrigal: not to label anything 'no'...
    sophia Placebo: well im working this intoxication by using the 4 selves model , for us during ramadhan have to stop from doing many things that are not habitual but considered spritually something like toxins
    Fefonz Quan: what is the 4 selves mode?
    Eliza Madrigal: I would imagine, sophia, that giving up things entirely for a time shows you that you 'can'
    sophia Placebo: the plant-like growing (self), the animalish sensual (self), the sacred speaking (self) , and the entirely divine (self) . And each of these has five powers, and two special features.
    Eliza Madrigal: How interesting, sophia. Five powers and two features?
    Fefonz Quan: i see, intruiging. similar to othe models i know, but differently organized
    sophia Placebo: the first one is the easiets to consider , since any insult to it , you might consider it toxin ie like known toxins :)
    sophia Placebo: As for the plant-like growing self, its five powers are grasping, attracting, digesting, resisting, and nurturing. Its two special features are to increase and to decrease
    sophia Placebo: it is all physical features , so one can say that the medical disadvantages of alcohol or smoking could fit to this self
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Eliza Madrigal: hm
    sophia Placebo: As for the animalish sensual nafs, its five powers are hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. Its two special features are pleasure and wrath,
    sophia Placebo: nafs = self almost
    sophia Placebo: here thing are not that much defiened for me regarding intoxication though
    Fefonz Quan: well wine and coffee effect those too
    Eliza Madrigal: for me it would seem to be centralized there... pleasure/creature comforts
    sophia Placebo: true , many things affect those , what is the insult here ?
    Fefonz Quan: what do you mean by 'what is the insult?)
    sophia Placebo: the plant like self is insulted if you stop its features or distube them , the increasing decreasing ie cells and tissue regenration
    Fefonz Quan: i see. so you increase pleasure, and tasting/feelings change too when drinking cof/wine
    Fefonz Quan: (for the second self)
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, the animal self would be less sharp.. if addicted, fragmented, and scattered, perhaps
    sophia Placebo: agree eliza thats what i thought too
    Eliza Madrigal: hinders growth and survival
    sophia Placebo: fef , the increase decrease thing is, it is just we can use this self in a positive way and in negative way
    sophia Placebo: using the same powers
    Eliza Madrigal: (though in the short term it might help.. but that would be the difference between moderation and intoxication)
    Fefonz Quan: i answered [7:51] sophia Placebo: As for the animalish sensual nafs, its five powers are hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. Its two special features are pleasure and wrath,
    Fefonz Quan: not the frirst self
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd *love* to hear the rest, but I need to go...
    Eliza Madrigal: Will certainly check the log :) Bye for now
    Fefonz Quan: bye Eliza, good to have you here
    sophia Placebo: bye eliza
    sophia Placebo: yes that what i want to say , the increase decrese thing is for the first one , so increase in pleasure or decrese in pleasure for me just need a more thoughts
    Fefonz Quan: think i lost you...
    sophia Placebo: :) i guess thats my fault
    Fefonz Quan: no faults :)
    sophia Placebo: i would agree with you in principal regarding what you said about the second self , but i need a more sharp definition for how one can intoxicate the second self
    sophia Placebo: need= trying to find*
    Fefonz Quan: if i understand, the second self is the level of feelings, senses, and such
    Fefonz Quan: ?
    sophia Placebo: yes that what i understood , the same feature we share with animals but not with plants
    Fefonz Quan: ok, so sunstances that effect these things, or maybe 'distorts' tehm, would be counted as intoxicating.
    Fefonz Quan: fo example, wine can make you feel happy (or down, depends), but in an 'artrificial' way, hence intoxicating the emotional level
    sophia Placebo: i guess , but who would consider an inocent pleasure that harm no one not even self as intoxication
    sophia Placebo: why being happy for a few mints is intoxication?
    sophia Placebo: porn for example , weed , alcohol , smoking
    Fefonz Quan: that's a good point. and i also wondered this week if a glass of wine now and then, is wrong
    Fefonz Quan: i think one factor is the addiction level. the addiction itself is intoxicating our mind and feelings, creates craving when we are without the intoxicant
    sophia Placebo: agrees
    Fefonz Quan: maybe that's one good sign: what happen when we are without the subtance.
    Fefonz Quan: if we suffer without it, i guess we got poisoned...
    sophia Placebo: well the challange is the third one , i couldnt find example to how it is intoxicated
    Fefonz Quan: can you elaborate about the third self?
    sophia Placebo: As for the sacred speaking self, its five powers are contemplating, remembering, knowledge, forbearance, and discernment.
    Fefonz Quan: mind? cognitive/communicating mond?
    sophia Placebo: Its two special features are fairness and wisdom.
    sophia Placebo: the mental status yes
    sophia Placebo: still alcohol apply right?
    Fefonz Quan: good. so, for example, 'mind-changing' drugs or'consciousness changing', not sure what the exact term is, will poison this level.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, things that change our perception of reality
    sophia Placebo: anger too
    Fefonz Quan: (again - 'artificialy' i would say, although it is problematic).
    Fefonz Quan: anger changes them, that's for sure, but is it 'contained' and then changing? maybe anger is the change itself
    sophia Placebo: nods
    Fefonz Quan: though for some it is also a habbit :)
    sophia Placebo: anger ?
    Fefonz Quan nods
    sophia Placebo: couldnt be
    Fefonz Quan: a frequent automatic reaction - that's the meaning i aimed at
    sophia Placebo: a lack of a better way to deal with things
    Fefonz Quan: yes, though it feels sometimes so spontaneously, almost like a reflex
    sophia Placebo: couldnt be habitual cuz once you pass through your weaknesses , you dont back to anger again just cuz you used to
    Fefonz Quan: like there is no time to free decision in the process
    Fefonz Quan: sure, same goes when you stop drinking coffee
    sophia Placebo: cuz there is no dicision :) , the mind is empty from other choices to make a dicision and choose from
    Fefonz Quan: i totally agree the the effect of anger is toxic, in many levels, physical, emotional, perceptual, etc.
    sophia Placebo: anger is internal biological center in the brain , it function smultinously
    sophia Placebo: as a reflex maybe as you said
    sophia Placebo: primtive fast system in our brain unlike reasoning which a bit slower and new under experiment
    Fefonz Quan nods. that's why i wondered about as intoxication, since it is not 'something' that came from outside. though, according to the effect, it is very polluting
    sophia Placebo: :) yes i guess
    Fefonz Quan: so infact on the third level, anything that distorts our perceptions, thoughts, and our 'seeing' of reality, is intoxicating in a way
    sophia Placebo: yes
    Fefonz Quan: anything that prevets us from seeing things as they are
    Fefonz Quan: prevents*
    Fefonz Quan: and this is 99% of the things crossing our minds ;-)
    sophia Placebo: do you think so ?
    sophia Placebo: 99%
    sophia Placebo: media ? :)
    Fefonz Quan: maybe exagarating, but we see reality through million filters and conditioned presummptions
    sophia Placebo: steretyping poeple ?
    Fefonz Quan: sure, media is a big intoxications. I thought this week of computers, the internet, news addiction, email addiction, all come to mind as big mind intoxicants
    sophia Placebo: nods
    Fefonz Quan: (infact i also right it down here, so we can put this log as report for WoK :)
    Fefonz Quan: write*. and fix the syntax on teh way :)
    sophia Placebo: :) that would be nice
    sophia Placebo: still thinking of the email intoxication
    Fefonz Quan: think about beig away frmo email for a week
    Fefonz Quan: being
    Fefonz Quan: from*
    sophia Placebo: :) think about being away from the net for the whole moth of ramadhan
    Fefonz Quan: yes, forbiden?
    sophia Placebo: no , im thinking about this though
    sophia Placebo: nothing in ramadhan is extra forbidden in other moths except food and drinking and sex during the day
    Fefonz Quan: i see. cellphones, by the way, intoxicate not only our own mind, feeling it with the erge to be connected/available all teh time, but also all the people around us in the bus that have to listen to our talks
    sophia Placebo: but cuz it is spritual month poepl tend to go away from many things and give bigger space for worshpping
    sophia Placebo: yes , the bus talks , i hate that
    Fefonz Quan: So the night is fun time i guess. raiding the kitchen and refrigirator
    sophia Placebo: not really , during ramadhan your stomach shrink
    sophia Placebo: even the few weeks after ramadhan , the eating is not a very important thing to do
    Fefonz Quan: well, so detoxicating is doing its job
    sophia Placebo: i meant the extra eating
    sophia Placebo: it dose , many poeple stop smoking , drinking alcohol maybe , stop being junk eaters , stop lying or talking bad behind poepls back
    sophia Placebo: things like that
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds nice.
    sophia Placebo: ofcourse anger too since you shouldnt say a bad word during the day , then your fast is spiritually meaningless
    sophia Placebo: it is nice :) one month period to try ,not alone , to be a better person
    sophia Placebo: well , ihave to leave now , very intersting discussion fef :)
    Fefonz Quan: the fasting does bring to my mind the question of where is the line between intoxicating yourself or just involve in pleasant healthy acitivity
    Fefonz Quan: yes it was Sophia :)
    Fefonz Quan: will it be ok if i edit it and post some of it in teh WoK site?
    sophia Placebo: sure :)
    Fefonz Quan: great, have a nice evening :)
    sophia Placebo: see you later :)

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