2009.05.15 13:00 - Mental Parasites

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Wol Euler. The comments are by Solo, however.

     The session starts out with Fael and Wol...

    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
    Wol Euler: hello fael
    Fael Illyar: How are you today?
    Wol Euler: pretty well, thanks! Looking forward to teh weekend
    Wol Euler: and you?
    Fael Illyar: I'm well :) Although, pondering about my gerbils lately.
    Wol Euler: mmm?
    Fael Illyar: Usually, during morning they don't seem to want to have anything to do with me but later in he evening they usually are actively wanting me to take them from their box.
    Wol Euler: hmmm
    Wol Euler: perhaps they are late risers, not at their best early on?
    Fael Illyar: during morning they sometimes even hide if I try to call them.
    Wol Euler: heh
    Wol Euler: hello scath
    Fael Illyar: I haven't taken them out of it against their will for a few weeks now.

    Scath arrives.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Scath :)
    Wol Euler: I htink that's probably a good idea
    Fael Illyar: only if they come themselves.
    Fael Illyar: usually, after one of them decides to come out, they're actively trying to get my attention for the rest of the day :)
    Wol Euler smiles
    Fael Illyar: Also, when I still sometimes took them out when they weren't actively wanting to come out, that'd also cause that.
    Fael Illyar: but today... nothing, they just stay hidden and seem to be even a bit afraid of me.
    Fael Illyar: that being afraid of me is rather unusual.
    Wol Euler nods thoughtfully
    Fael Illyar: they sometimes get scared when I walk past or walk close but aren't afraid.
    Wol Euler: was anyone else in your apartment lately? little kids trying to pull their tails?
    Fael Illyar: nope, no kids ... although, there was one older lady who came by.
    Wol Euler: hopefully not a tail-puller
    Wol Euler: or are they perhaps nesting, raising gerblets?
    Fael Illyar: I'm moving and she was one of the first to take a look at my aprtment.
    Fael Illyar: no, she saw my cardboard area I've made for my gerbils and asked if I have hamsters, I pointed at the box where my gerbils are and told her I've got gerbils.
    Fael Illyar: she looked at the box for a bit and then moved to looking around.
    Wol Euler: hello sophiasharon
    Fael Illyar: no touching or talking.
    Fael Illyar: Hi sophiasharon :)

     SophiaSharon arrives next.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello sophia
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia curls upand purrs
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ^VV^^V^PuRRrSss^VV^^V
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ^VV^^V^PuRRrSss^VV^^V
    Fael Illyar purrrrrrsssssssss
    Wol Euler: perhaps that's why the gerbil are afraid? they think you're a cat.
    Fael Illyar: Hmmh... can't see why they'd suddenly think of me as a cat :)
    Wol Euler: purring ... bad joke, sorry
    Fael Illyar: They've been pretty sensitive to my moods but... well, I've thought I've been in unusually good mood for today.
    Fael Illyar: usually that makes them more interested in my attention.
    Fael Illyar: looks like gerbil discussion ran out :)

    Yakuzza is next to arrive.

    Fael Illyar: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Wol Euler: we are pondering the cause?
    Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi yakuzza
    Fael Illyar: intentionally black?
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, it was a bug in the first place
    Wol Euler grins. I've never seen you not fully black. Must save on buying clothes :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but now i don´t even have the intention to change that it´s interesting with only one shoe
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Wol Euler: ah yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah its the economic crisis
    Yakuzza Lethecus: we all have to save money somewhere :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Ari :)

    Ari is next in the Playgoda.

    Wol Euler: hello ari
    Arisia Vita: Hi all, sorry to be late
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
    Wol Euler: no worries, we're just gearing up.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Arisia
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ari
    Fael Illyar: No problem, please take a seat :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, saving money is quite universal need.
    Wol Euler: what amazing pixel-noise eyes you have, yakuzza.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, it is really ab bug related to my 2nd monitor
    Wol Euler: hehehehe
    Wol Euler: looks great, though, very distinctive.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no topic how to relax with open eyes or something today ? )
    Wol Euler: sure, why not. Care to start us off?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: 2 or 3 days ago that was a topic
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i usually like to listen everywhere
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Aren´t there standart topic´s like relaxation techniques or something ?
    Fael Illyar: do we have a standard topic?
    Wol Euler: not that I know of.
    Fael Illyar: yes, me neither
    Yakuzza Lethecus: how is the weather :)
    Wol Euler: our standard topic often seems to be the unreality of reality
    Wol Euler: I suppose in theory our standard topic is "matters arising from the practice of Nines or APAPB"
    Fael Illyar: the unrealit of what we take to be the reality.
    Wol Euler: yakuzza, do you have a practice?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: when i relax (meditate) with my eyes open, I tend to think more of appreciating, when closed, I go more internal, does ths make any sense
    Wol Euler nods.
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it does.
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i am having a problem with the appriation concept because i am seeing 'everyhting' I know I talked about this before but that initail impression is not going away
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry typos
    SophiaSharon Larnia: why i havent been here
    Wol Euler raises a finger to her lips
    Fael Illyar: seeing everything?
    Wol Euler: can you say more, please?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, i meantto see what is to appreciate, life, this gift, and i see the pain too, am i to embrase and appreciate all of it, or just what I chose
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or to accept it all
    Fael Illyar: ideally all.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but not all of it is acceptable, to me
    Fael Illyar: yet, it is there.
    Wol Euler: appreciation is not about approval, not as I understand it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no youre right, of course, fael, wol
    Wol Euler: hard to phrase exactly what the distinction is...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: accept that it exists, acept what is
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i continually back myself in cornors
    Wol Euler: right. You might still feel called upon to take action against it, to work inthe soup kitchen or volunteer in the free clinic or whaterver
    Fael Illyar: what kind of corners?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes i do i can talk more about that later
    Wol Euler: but ideally you would do so without hating what you work against
    SophiaSharon Larnia: philosohical type of corners
    Fael Illyar: yes, only love can dissolve hate. Hate cannot do that.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Fael Illyar: pain is a symptom.
    Fael Illyar: not the cause.
    Wol Euler: Scath, you are very quiet today.
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: just listening
    Wol Euler: fair enough :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I am very tired:)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: like we all :)
    Wol Euler: sorry to hear it. I hope you'll be able to rest up on the weekend?
    Scathach Rhiadra: oh yes, I intend to

    Scath brings up "The Prophet".

    Scathach Rhiadra: has everyone read kahil Gibran's The Prophet?
    Wol Euler: no, sorry.
    Arisia Vita: me either
    Fael Illyar: not me, no
    Wol Euler: to be honest it was so loudly praised by the would-be hippies in my youth, that I was prejudiced against it
    Scathach Rhiadra: just thinking about seeing everything as it is, his verse on 'good and Evil is very good...
    Fael Illyar has never heard of it.
    Fael Illyar: would you care to repeat it here?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: /takes notes :))
    Scathach Rhiadra: "Of the good in you I can speak, but not of the evil. For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst? Verily when good is hungry it seeks food even in dark caves, and when it thirsts it drinks even of dead waters. "
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Wol Euler nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the wording sounds like the king james version and therefore bs alert raised :p
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but true none the less
    Wol Euler: reminds me of Nietzsche
    Fael Illyar: Everyone has something of value to say, no matter who they are. :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: true Fael, and we can pick up wisdom in some unuasual places:)
    Fael Illyar: yes, even utter ... forgive me ... bullshit can give us that. Or more accurately, trigger us to realize.
    Scathach Rhiadra: or unexpected places maybe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Fael Illyar: Everything there is, is there because we are here and we are here because it is there.
    Fael Illyar: even for things we'd prefer to not be there... we wouldn't be without them.
    Arisia Vita: No knowledge is so right as to be beyond question, and no belief is so wrong as to be beyond usefulness.
    Wol Euler: heh, coincidence. I just read that somewhere ...
    Fael Illyar smiles 'I've certainly heard that somewere.'
    Fael Illyar: just can't recall where :

    Wol offers a short youtube film.

    Wol Euler: permit me to send you into the weekend wiht an utterly delightful short film
    Wol Euler: this was mentioned in a log some time back, but in case you haven't see it yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbk980jV7Ao
    Wol Euler: truly wonderful
    Wol Euler: (16 mins long...)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: perhaps I'll watch it soon :)
    Wol Euler: do :) it'll make your day
    SophiaSharon Larnia: forgive me I must go, see you later everyone :))
    Wol Euler: bye sophiasharon, take care. enjoy the weekend
    Arisia Vita: bye Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye sophia
    Fael Illyar: See you later Sophia :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I've watched the begining of that Wol, looking forward to watching it, thank you:0
    Wol Euler: it's really lovely, I have been forwarding it all day...
    Wol Euler: [13:51] Fael Illyar: Everything there is, is there because we are here and we are here because it is there.
    Wol Euler: is that the famous codependent arising?
    Scathach Rhiadra: heh, sort of:)
    Wol Euler ruminates
    Arisia Vita: I'm off to check out the workshop, see you all later I hope...
    Wol Euler: bye ari, take care
    Wol Euler: enjoy the weekend
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ari
    Arisia Vita: bye all
    Fael Illyar: oh, I forgot myself watching it :)
    Fael Illyar: Thank you :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: my pleasure.

    Scath offers up a video herself.

    Scathach Rhiadra: Wol, if you have some time to spare you might like to look at this on dependent arising http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da
    Wol Euler: ah, ty, I'll have a look.
    Scathach Rhiadra: it is a bit theoretical, and like Stim said seeing it is another matter
    Scathach Rhiadra: that is where the practice comes in
    Wol Euler nods.
    Fael Illyar: Yes, very nice film :)
    Wol Euler smiles broadly
    Scathach Rhiadra: I think I will go make some tea before the pheno workshop, it is at 2.30 today, good night all, Namaste
    Fael Illyar will pass it on.
    Fael Illyar: Good night Scath :)
    Wol Euler: goodngiht, scath, take care. sleep well, rest and be refreshed
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty, you too:)
    Fael Illyar: Do you know what it is that makes this video so good? :)
    Wol Euler: do tell :)
    Fael Illyar: It conveys the idea of how to live a happy life quite well... not instructions but it's all there. all that is necessary.
    Wol Euler: yes! it is a very PaB-ish film
    Fael Illyar: in a nut shell "Just smile." :)
    Wol Euler nods and smiles
    Fael Illyar: The folly of not smiling :)
    Fael Illyar: even bigger folly of not smiling because someone else doesn't smile...
    Wol Euler: mmhmm.
    Wol Euler: how much extra sadness did the mother experience because her daughter didn't smile?
    Fael Illyar: immeasurable.
    Wol Euler: we dig wells of sadness for ourselves and then jump in head-first
    Fael Illyar: yet, either one of them could've turned it around by just smiling.
    Wol Euler: but they didn't, so they didn't. Dependent not-arising :)
    Fael Illyar: yep
    Fael Illyar: happiness is naturally "contageous". sadness is not in the same way.
    Fael Illyar: sadness becomes contageous when people are taught to become sad when others are sad.
    Wol Euler nods
    Fael Illyar: when people set conditions for themselves to not be happy if others are not...
    Wol Euler: perhaps it seems like a betrayal, a lack of sympathy, to express happiness in the presence of the sad?
    Fael Illyar: there is no difference between expressing happiness and expressing love.
    Wol Euler: agreed, but htat is a pretty high-level thought :)
    Fael Illyar: but yes, that's the excuse people tell to themselves.
    Fael Illyar: the selfishness of expecting others to not be happy when you are not is ... immeasurable...
    Fael Illyar: (not to mention self-destructive, it's a way to make sure others are not able to help you feel better)
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Fael Illyar: but well... no difference to other selfish thought patterns really
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, we as a species have a knack for self-defeating behaviour
    Fael Illyar: Yes... interesting to have that, isn't it?
    Fael Illyar: one way of looking at this would be that it's not people who are selfish ... it's the mental parasites they're infested with
    Wol Euler: oooooh
    Fael Illyar: it feels a perfect comparison :)
    Wol Euler: "mental parasites" is an interesting concept! we should talk about htat sometime, another session
    Fael Illyar: parasites that infect and feed on their victim and use their victim to spread to others.
    Fael Illyar: many different kinds too.
    Fael Illyar: we tend to think of ourselves as individuals but ... what if large parts of our personalities are collections of these parasites?
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: that what we think of as our self-defeating behaviour is actually their mating dance?
    Fael Illyar: ... what if even thinking ourselves as individuals is one of them? :)
    Fael Illyar: yes, for us that's self-defeating. For them it's reproduction :)
    Wol Euler: right. I read an article about parasites that do control their hosts' nervous systems, to cause them to peform actions that get the next step in the parasite's lifecycle performed
    Wol Euler: like a fish parasite that needs to be eaten and excreted by a heron in order to get back into the water
    Fael Illyar: yes... this kind of parasite is just ... umm... virtual :)
    Wol Euler: so it makes the fish swim briefly belly-up, which attracts the heron
    Fael Illyar: yet, very real in effect
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Fael Illyar: this way of expressing things actually clears up the bafflement I've had about the senselessness I've felt with people acting that way...

    Moon on a Friday afternoon...

    Fael Illyar: Hi Moon :)
    Wol Euler: hello moon
    Moon Fargis: sltill pabbing ?:)
    Wol Euler: yep
    Fael Illyar: When you think of it as the parasite acting and not the person acting... the way of acting actually makes sense.
    Wol Euler: talking about mind parasites
    Wol Euler: fael's suggestion/invention/discovery
    Moon Fargis: onigokko
    Fael Illyar giggles.
    Fael Illyar: no, not even you're running now.
    Moon Fargis: yes typo
    Wol Euler: thats cheating, moon.
    Wol Euler: can't say it unless you are wearing your own.
    Moon Fargis: meeeeh
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Moon Fargis: onigokko!!
    Moon Fargis: ooohh nniii
    Moon Fargis: nii...
    Moon Fargis: ...
    Moon Fargis: ahwell
    Fael Illyar giggles.
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Fael Illyar: Moon sounded like he needed a hug :)
    Wol Euler: force yourself to relax and enjoy it
    Fael Illyar: leave the first 3 words out and it's not so ... umm ... aggressive sentence :)
    Wol Euler: yakuzza, are you still here?
    Fael Illyar: ah, Moon, Wol gave us this link an hour ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbk980jV7Ao
    Fael Illyar: it's excellent video :)
    Wol Euler smiles
    Moon Fargis: (watches)
    Fael Illyar: ok, no Moon for the next 15 minutes :P
    Moon Fargis: hhh
    Moon Fargis: verry nice
    Moon Fargis: ^^
    Fael Illyar giggles at her timing.
    Moon Fargis: who reminds meat the sentence, a bright smile is a half enlightment :)
    Fael Illyar smiles brightly.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Moon Fargis: ok i think better go to bed now ^^
    Moon Fargis: onigokko
    Fael Illyar: Good night Moon :)
    Wol Euler: yeah, me too, soon. goodnight moon, schlaf gut.
    Moon Fargis: ^^
    Moon Fargis: stop
    Moon Fargis: ^^
    Wol Euler: goodnight fael, 'night yakuzza
    Fael Illyar: Good night Wol :)
    Wol Euler: are you staying or shall I stop the logger?
    Fael Illyar: No, I'll be loggin off too
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: gooodnight, sleep well.
    Wol Euler: I hope your gerbils get over whatever is upsetting themn
    Fael Illyar: You too :)
    Fael Illyar waves.
    Wol Euler: -n

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