2009.05.18 13:00 - Value Judgments

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.


    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Did you have a good day?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, did you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Got rained on otherwise good ty :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes a lot of rain here too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Showery this week it seems.
    Scathach Rhiadra: it is wintery!
    Gaya Ethaniel: aaww ... sorry to hear it. Though I must agree it's not as warm as it should be.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Can I ask you what kind of meditation practice you do Scath?
    Scathach Rhiadra: mostly calm abiding, following the breath, and vipassana
    Scathach Rhiadra: and you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Scath, Gaya
    Scathach Rhiadra: very like Stim's exercises,
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sittings and sometimes walking. Until Stim talked about 'view', I just observed and try to be as inclusive as possible about what arises.
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Stim
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Stim
    Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Scathach, Fefonz!
    Stim Morane: Unfortunately, I was just given a "rush" job a few minutes ago, and so cannot stay in the meeting.
    Gaya Ethaniel: No problem Stim. Hope you have a good day.
    Fefonz Quan: Yes, see you next time Stim
    Stim Morane: Thanks. It's very regrettable.
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, see you soon
    Stim Morane: Shall I go ahead and claim the session, or leave that to one of you?
    Scathach Rhiadra: which ever you like:)
    Stim Morane: OK, I'll claim it and run, then.
    Stim Morane: Sorry to dash off!
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye:)
    Gaya Ethaniel waves. :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Strannik :)
    Strannik Zipper: greetings
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Strannik
    Fefonz Quan: hello Strannik
    Strannik Zipper: hello
    Gaya Ethaniel: How do you translate/interpret 'appreciation' in your practice? My efforts in this consist of 'being inclusive' as mentioned before.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, to me it is just seeing whatever 'is' right now, I suppose:)
    Fefonz Quan: yo Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hello everyone
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... Scath ... that is true. Seeing is appreciation too.
    Strannik Zipper: Hi Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: Seeing itself*
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fefonz Quan: I also wondered about it Gaya, why is seeing appereciating?
    Strannik Zipper: Is seeing related to knowing in this case?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, it is easy for me to put 'seeing' aside ... so making time, efforts to see is an act of appreciation.
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Tarmel
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tarmel :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: hi All
    Strannik Zipper nods to Tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe it is recognising that everything is as it is, without having to put your projections on it
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Tarmel
    Fefonz Quan: i see... yes, my feelings are more towards what Scathach is describing
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm... Scath, please say more?
    Fefonz Quan: like appereciating is somehow an anti-dote of our regular concepts
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fefonz Quan: the regular habit to classify anything as: good/bas/natural
    Fefonz Quan: bad*
    Tarmel Udimo: (sorry folks will have to slip away for a few mins)
    Fefonz Quan: slip well Tarmel :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Strannik Zipper: so experience without labeling to start...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes I find it difficult not to attach 'value' judgements on things that I see.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Qt
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Qt
    Fefonz Quan: so that's where i think appereciating 'gives us a hand'
    Qt Core: hi all
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Qt
    Strannik Zipper nods to QT
    Fefonz Quan: because for me it is not totally natural, but has some 'nice odor' to it
    Gaya Ethaniel: it is not totally natural, but has some 'nice odor' to it - I don't get it >.<
    Fefonz Quan: so it is like a pleasant atmosphere hovering over the appearances i see
    Fefonz Quan: (but maybe i am wrong about it)
    Scathach Rhiadra: seeing includes all that is, thoughts and feelings, emotions...
    Strannik Zipper: My sense is that appreciation comes from a different "place" - where the intellect is not labeling, ego is not grasping, and time is no projected away from the present in any way
    Fefonz Quan: but in a very very slight way
    Scathach Rhiadra: they are all arisings, (if I am allowed to say that:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: greeting all
    sophia Placebo: hi gaya:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Sophia
    Qt Core: hi sophia
    Strannik Zipper nods to Sophia
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe an example could help ... I 'caught' myself laughing at someone's comment and got shocked at my behaviour.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Sophia
    Fefonz Quan: the laughing shocked you?
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: like observing your thoughts?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: That feeling of shock and shame stayed with me for a long time.
    Fefonz Quan: why, what's wrong with laughing?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, I was making a judgement on that person whom I don't know well hence the laughing is being arrogant ... am I making sense?
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Strannik Zipper: It was a reaction?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, though i think it is also very legitimate
    Pila Mulligan: so oyu were laughing at rahther than laughing with
    Gaya Ethaniel: It was a reaction that I don't normally notice ... so I was a bit surprised.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Pila.
    Fefonz Quan: [13:19] Scathach Rhiadra: they are all arisings, (if I am allowed to say that:)
    Fefonz Quan: can you say more Scath?
    Strannik Zipper: Good point Fefonz
    Scathach Rhiadra: well sometimes I notice I mistake appreciation, or just 'seeing' for the good feelings I have about something, but have to see the feelings too, almost like stepoing aside from the self, to include everything, to observe everything
    Scathach Rhiadra: if that makes sense:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: stepping*
    Fefonz Quan: yes, you mean that the good feeling is just another part of the appearances we observe
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes!
    Strannik Zipper: good observation - is it possible that we lose appreciation by slipping from just appreciating to attachment feelings?
    Pila Mulligan: wb Sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb sophia
    sophia Placebo: ty
    Fefonz Quan: i agree. i didn't meant 'feel good' and just indulge in that feeling.
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, that is what I think
    Scathach Rhiadra: (didn't think you did Fefonz:)
    Strannik Zipper: I think sometimes we can slip into an appreciative aware mode with no grasping, but grasping can come in very subtly and try to "own" the experience
    Fefonz Quan: i meant, instead of seeing something at one of teh extremes 'pleasant/unpleasant/natural', we want to loose those judjments
    Fefonz Quan: judgments.
    Fefonz Quan: but for me, if i could do that purely, no appereciation was needed
    Gaya Ethaniel nods and continues to listen.
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes it is very subtle
    Fefonz Quan: (and i also felt when heard it first time from Pema, that this is some ingeredient we 'force' into the practice
    Fefonz Quan: )
    Strannik Zipper: once self or grasping is present, it is very difficult not to fall into the comparitive, calculating, labeling mind
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fefonz Quan: but maybe, as i say, it is some stick, a tool
    Fefonz Quan: Yes Strannik, it is dificult
    Scathach Rhiadra: and then we don't want to go the other way, being detached, not engaging with what appears, a very fine balancing act:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed ... it's rather difficult ...
    Fefonz Quan: right. so appereciatin puts us in some solid point, away from teh undesired extremes, even if it is not the total equinimity point.
    Strannik Zipper: If we can catch ourselves in the act, we can see the grasping self with its calculating, labeling and inability to be present, and appreciate that - turn the situation on its head?
    Strannik Zipper: Like you said, Fefonz, see it as just another arising?
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, or as Pema says, seeing is enough?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i think so strannik, though this may lead to an infinite loop of catching
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was not toally happy with that I felt bad about myself for a while afterwards. But I just decided to stay with that feelings and explore why etc. Couldn't think of anything else to do.
    Strannik Zipper: hmmmm....In my experience, the act of catching oneself, simply expands the amount of space, and all of the fragments one is watching, simply quiet of their own
    Fefonz Quan: and in my experience, in situations like anger and guilt it takes some times to quiet
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes it dissolves sometimes it doesn't in my expriences so far ... depending how new or 'serious' the event is I guess ...
    Gaya Ethaniel nods @ Fefonz.
    Strannik Zipper: Fefonz - me too - I find the more something has an emotional charge, the more difficult it is
    Scathach Rhiadra: and the very act of catching yourself, can loosen the grip of the emotion
    Fefonz Quan: I have another guess/hint about appereciatin, but no proof for ti
    Scathach Rhiadra: oh, say more..
    sophia Placebo: 8keeps them as memorie photoes in consciuos album
    Fefonz Quan: i have a guts feeling that although now i think of it as 'not totally neutral', when in a state of real 'seeing', appereciatin comes naturally, without effort, as this is the pure way of being
    Scathach Rhiadra: like sheer awareness
    Fefonz Quan: (and maybe some wishful thinking here too)
    Fefonz Quan: yes Scath
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Strannik Zipper: Fefonz - the fact that appreciation arises without effort would seem to confirm your "hint"
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fefonz Quan: sure, though fact here is a strange word
    Strannik Zipper: true! - "observation" would probably be a better word here
    Fefonz Quan: So in a way we come full circle to 'Play as Being' - play as appereciating
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: My appreciation mainly is about seeing all ... "observe with curiosity". I don't understand 'sheer appreciation', without efforts yet. Guess it will come with time and practice.
    Fefonz Quan just came from 20 min practicing by a small pond here, with geese around, and appereciated teh geese poop layed in front of him :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: heh:)
    Gaya Ethaniel frowns and thinks, "how does one appreciate geese poop?"
    Strannik Zipper: very organic and fertile :)
    Fefonz Quan: just watch it in the grass, then dropping 'grass', 'poop', 'geese'....
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds like I'm getting too much of usual meaning of 'appreciation' into what we discuss here.
    Gaya Ethaniel: [13:37] Scathach Rhiadra: and the very act of catching yourself, can loosen the grip of the emotion
    Gaya Ethaniel: Scath, can you please say a bit more about this?
    sophia Placebo: hi genesis
    Fefonz Quan: hi Gen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello genesis :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, like Strannik said, simply catching yourself, everything quiets of its owm, seeing the emotion or feeling or judgement arising, you are no longer in its grasp, so to speak
    Strannik Zipper nods to Genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: Hello lovely people :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Gen
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: and lovely rabbits
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: it is when you don't catch it that it 'controls' you
    Qt Core: hi gen
    Scathach Rhiadra: or you are lost in it
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: What do you do when things take time to quieten down? Just observe as usual?
    Gaya Ethaniel: long time*
    Strannik Zipper: My action movie analogy: you feel the gun of emotion poked into your ribs from behind, but you don't see the assailant. You suddenly turn around, pointing the gun of awareness at them, at which they turn and run away :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: try to let go, maybe
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... these days, I don't consciously try to let go, if that makes sense.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm 'content' as long as I am aware of the feelings even those that make me feel uncomfortable.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh ok
    sophia Placebo: change something physical in your surrounding , dont know why , i just do it sometimes :)
    genesis Zhangsun: its amazing how a small gesture of recognizing something is enough
    Strannik Zipper: hmmmmm....interesting
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes change of scenery can be a good thing however small :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Alfred
    genesis Zhangsun: to see it, makes it a choice
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Alfred
    sophia Placebo: hi alfred
    genesis Zhangsun: hey Alfred
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Alfred :)
    Strannik Zipper: a good point - I find that when I am traveling someplace new, I slip into appreciation all of the time
    Strannik Zipper: because I am out of habitual space
    genesis Zhangsun: yes out of our ordinary expectations
    genesis Zhangsun: we are clued into the fact that we really don't know everything about where we are
    Gaya Ethaniel: True Strannik, I notice and sometimes get excited over even mundane objects if in new surrounding.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, our habitual tendencies:)
    Fefonz Quan: and then i try sometimes to feel like a tourist in my home twon
    Strannik Zipper: For years I thought that travel was very important for me to enjoy life, but I finally realized it wasn't the trip as much as it was the quality of mind
    sophia Placebo: ^^ yes in travell every small silly detail is magically intersting
    Fefonz Quan nods
    sophia Placebo: quality of mind in what sense?
    Fefonz Quan: and now i found the opposite: living in another state for 1.5 years, every shoort trip home feels like heaven!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Pila Mulligan: hi Yakuzza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuza :)
    genesis Zhangsun: hi yakuzza
    Fefonz Quan: hi Yakk
    sophia Placebo: hi yakuzza
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Yakuzza
    Strannik Zipper: When I am in strange and new place, I am drinking in my senses, purely observing, and my calculating brain shuts up. There is no sense of self in these moments and no time - just the experience, appreciation and a feeling of lightness
    genesis Zhangsun: why do we have the tendency to make the extraordinary ordinary eventually
    Fefonz Quan: can you say more about 'no time' Strannik?
    Strannik Zipper: perhaps I should say that the quality of time shifts - I am rapt in the present moment in a larger sense
    Fefonz Quan nods thanks.
    sophia Placebo: to gen : we wouldnt point to the dog with joy and luaghter as we did as kids :) guess something in our way of expressing our new awarness
    Strannik Zipper: I think we become more referential to past experiences and thoughts, which take away some of the "newness" of experience
    sophia Placebo: something like -grown up poeple dont point to dog with joy -
    Fefonz Quan: Gen, maybe because after we classify something known in our directory of events/things, when we see it again, we jump to that drawer instead of experiencing the moment
    Strannik Zipper: we say "oh, a dog - I know all about dogs already"
    genesis Zhangsun: yes I understand the usefulness of doing so, not pointing at dogs and being able to use references for survival
    genesis Zhangsun: but with a bit of awareness, breathing space into those references, perhaps they can be tools without dominating the experience
    Fefonz Quan: we all hope so Gen :)
    Strannik Zipper: genesis - I think you have something there
    genesis Zhangsun: something like awareness creates more awareness
    Fefonz Quan: and more joy
    genesis Zhangsun: if you can lock memories in with a layer of awareness perhaps when they reappear they are paired with the awareness that this is only a reference
    genesis Zhangsun: and the whole thing accelerates
    Strannik Zipper: or perhaps if you are conscious of what the mind is doing in the moment, you can add space on the fly
    Fefonz Quan: no need to store that layer each time, just keep it with you
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Strannik I like that
    genesis Zhangsun: and right Fefonz
    genesis Zhangsun: no need to "store" or "lock in"
    Fefonz Quan: (like the field of thornes - instead of covering it with leather - just wear sandals)
    Strannik Zipper: For myself, If I try to store or lock-in, it is likely to turn back into grasping
    genesis Zhangsun: yes very much so
    genesis Zhangsun: so how to create space, awareness without grasping?
    Fefonz Quan: i practiced some times eating meditation, that focuses on what we speak i think
    Fefonz Quan: each bitebecomes new, exciting, full of colors, tastes and feelings
    sophia Placebo: goodnight all
    Strannik Zipper: awareness is the best spice mix there is!
    Pila Mulligan: bye Sophia
    genesis Zhangsun: nighs sophia
    Fefonz Quan: just because of the awareness of it.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night sophia
    Scathach Rhiadra: night Sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. When I did that during a retreat, people thought I disliked the food >.<
    genesis Zhangsun: *night
    Strannik Zipper: night sophia
    Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye sophia.
    sophia Placebo: nice discussion :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Because I was eating so slowly :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, one of the main things i observed, that regularly when we chew one bite, we already get the next one on the spoon
    Fefonz Quan: so - already planning for the future moment, instead of enjoying the current one
    Strannik Zipper: army mess halls and large families often teach one to jam it in, or you won't get any
    Fefonz Quan: yes strannik, again survival undermines awareness
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm that reminds me of when I was in the Himalaya, sometimes I would be the only person not taking photographs ofthe beautiful sights
    Scathach Rhiadra: instead of just experienceing what was in front of them, they had to try and capture it for the future
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Strannik Zipper: perhaps some habits are useful at a stage of our growth, but are meant to be transcended
    Fefonz Quan: though it is a big wonder, why our 'natural' survival instincts seem so oposite to awareness
    Fefonz Quan: opposite*
    Scathach Rhiadra: always protecting or coseting our self maybe
    Strannik Zipper: under conditions of stress, our awareness sometime dissipates, if we couldn't perform by habit, we often wouldn't survive
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not being the strongest animal must be a part of the reason perhaps.
    Fefonz Quan: Gaya, we are the strongest animal, but then we fight among ourselves
    Strannik Zipper: some of the best, most efficient (and kindest) martial arts are built on habits first, and then substituting habits with awareness
    Gaya Ethaniel: No I was thinking more about prehistoric times when we were surrounded by predators.
    Gaya Ethaniel: A lot to think, remember and do in order to survive in that environment,
    Fefonz Quan: i know. my ponit was that we are still surrounded
    Fefonz Quan: point*
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that is also true.
    Strannik Zipper: building habits are easier and more efficient in the beginning - military basic training is based on this
    Fefonz Quan: i agree Strannik. it is true also for playing music
    Strannik Zipper: right - awareness is the most basic level of our existence, but it is also the most advanced stages of our development
    Fefonz Quan: but then we may ask - is an'awarenes oriented' culture doomed by evolution?
    Strannik Zipper: how so, Fefonz?
    genesis Zhangsun: i might argue that awareness is key to our survival
    Fefonz Quan: (many tibetian ask themselves that question not hypothetically)
    genesis Zhangsun: your going to have to expand on that Fefonz
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: But didn't India win its independence from the British by that kind of awareness?
    Fefonz Quan: but if our survival habit are opposing awareness - we have a problem
    Fefonz Quan: Yes Gaya, that is one single example in a long history
    Strannik Zipper: I think only in early stages of development is that true
    genesis Zhangsun: really?
    genesis Zhangsun: is it really opposing?
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps it is just one layer-habit- next layer awareness
    Strannik Zipper: evolution is always ultimately TOWARDS awareness - there is no where else for it to go
    genesis Zhangsun: a musician doesn't practice just to produce more of the same
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i swap over to the cafe, cya!
    Fefonz Quan: surely not for the musician Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: i agree Strannik
    Fefonz Quan: well, other will say differently about evolution
    genesis Zhangsun: well we've evolved to have this conversation right now
    genesis Zhangsun: thats pretty good evolution-awareness working together
    Strannik Zipper: Awareness takes longer to develop, but it will always be a step ahead of habit
    genesis Zhangsun: ;)
    Fefonz Quan: i agree Gen :)
    Qt Core: bye all, even (or as ) i was silent it was a nice session ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Qt.
    Strannik Zipper: cheers QT
    genesis Zhangsun: night QT
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Qt:)
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Fefonz Quan: though statistically we are much more scarce than many fatal genetic diseases, who's carriers are still alive
    Strannik Zipper: against all odds, it was inevitable that we would survive, because awareness before we came into existence, demanded it
    Fefonz Quan: Strannik, we are not talking only about habits vs. awareness. ...
    Fefonz Quan: please elaborate about it Strannik
    Strannik Zipper: that is to say, that awareness is not necessarily a product of evolution - more likely evolution is a product of awareness
    Strannik Zipper: on one level, awareness must be cultivated and practiced, but on another, it is unavoidable
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds like a good belief, i agree. but how does awareness produce evolution?
    genesis Zhangsun: must go!
    genesis Zhangsun: nice discussion
    genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone
    Fefonz Quan: bye Gen!
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Gen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye gen.
    Pila Mulligan: bye gen
    Strannik Zipper: You would only be able to observe this on a small scale
    Strannik Zipper: the belief comes when you extrapolate a small observation into a bit principle
    Strannik Zipper: er big
    Strannik Zipper: but one can see that ability and function increase as awareness increases
    Fefonz Quan: can you give an example in small scale?
    Strannik Zipper: First you have to question what evolution consists of - what consists of change towards something "more developed"
    Fefonz Quan: evolution doesn't have to be toward 'more developed', btu toward 'more fit for its environment'
    Pila Mulligan: there are quite a few spiritual beliefs along the line that god's will to be conscious is the purpose or source of being
    Strannik Zipper: right, Pila, but I am thinking that the principle behind that may be observed without the belief
    Fefonz Quan: well god's will is really beyond anything i can say
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Strannik Zipper: so the question is, can a being become more fit for its environment without an increaase in awareness (especially knowing that there must be adaptation to change in environment)
    Fefonz Quan: having enough difficulty with free will :0
    Gaya Ethaniel: :D
    Gaya Ethaniel: I just stick with appreciation.
    Gaya Ethaniel: For now at least :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yep :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: But it really is an intersting idea Strannik, awareness drives evolution.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Strannik Zipper: or you could say that fitness is built on awareness
    Pila Mulligan: hi kenji
    Gaya Ethaniel: I must go unfortunately. Late here ... thanks and have a good day/night :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Gaya:)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Gaya
    Fefonz Quan: i see your point Starnnik, but the problem arises later, when we have intelligent aware being, some of them strong and violent, and others strong maybe, but non-violent. who will survive?
    Strannik Zipper: reminds me of an Ashleigh Brilliant postcard "I don't know the answer, but I certainly appreciate the problem"
    Fefonz Quan: night Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel waves and poofs.
    Fefonz Quan: the 'spiritual' tribe or teh 'cold technological' tribe
    Strannik Zipper: I think that higher levels of fitness require more cooperation
    Scathach Rhiadra: and I must go too, good night all, Namasté
    Fefonz Quan: namaste Scath
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scath
    Pila Mulligan: Fefonz, the answer may need an adjustment as to the idea of survival
    Pila Mulligan: strong and violent may appear to succeed, when in fact they fail
    Fefonz Quan listens
    Pila Mulligan: take Bush for example
    Strannik Zipper: the cold war presented us with the awareness that previous modes of survival will actually result in our destruction, for example
    Pila Mulligan: he pleased his supporters immensely for five years or so
    Pila Mulligan: who's to say our known history represents the only epoch when sentient humans and a civilization evolved?
    Fefonz Quan: noone said so Pila
    Pila Mulligan: if the Bush folks vaporized us, maybe in another ten million years we'd be back again
    Fefonz Quan: why would them vaposie us?
    Pila Mulligan: by accident is one way, like Iraq
    Strannik Zipper: right now, survival would seem to require awareness, but we could fail to acquire that awareness and not survive
    Pila Mulligan: we have a lot of time to survive and evolve in, and as several sages have said,soft overcomes the firm
    Strannik Zipper: right, Pila - martials arts demonstrate this - the most deadly and effective martial arts are also the most kind and awareness-based
    Fefonz Quan: i agree with Srannik on some 'global' level, but point out that while some of us might develop great awareness, other that don't might 'vaporize' us all meanwhile (using pilas word)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is something to worry about :)
    Pila Mulligan: but then just wait ten milion years and see if they do int next time
    Fefonz Quan: well, this is a circular argument Pila ;-)
    Pila Mulligan: no, it is linear
    Pila Mulligan: the Sun burns out eventually
    Strannik Zipper: that is the dangerous stage of development that we are in
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Strannik Zipper: It is a paradox - only by contacting that which is never born, can we continue to live
    Fefonz Quan would love to hear Pema's response to that one.
    Fefonz Quan: he might say 'this is all 'inside teh story'
    Fefonz Quan: '
    Pila Mulligan: this is inside the Bhagavad Gita :)
    Fefonz Quan: but if we transcend the 'story', things may lok differently
    Strannik Zipper: perhaps - I see it as the arising of several simultaneous perspectives
    Fefonz Quan: teh bhagavad Gita is a good story :0
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I think in most tradtional perspsctives the story may be inescapable
    Fefonz Quan: So - can we effect the story by increasing our awareness?
    Pila Mulligan: that is the story :)
    Strannik Zipper: Arjuna doesn't get out ot going to battle, just because he is taught self-transcendence and awareness
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: the story is the karma
    Strannik Zipper: but perhaps he brings some of that awareness in and changes the battle a bit
    Pila Mulligan: maybe
    Pila Mulligan: but a big part of what Krishna was saing is 'go ahed, Arjuna, do it'
    Fefonz Quan: i thought on some level he is not fighting outside others that are less awared, but fighting the symbols of his inside demonds
    Strannik Zipper: there is something else here - there is a survival habit which is somewhat "natural", but I think it can be twisted into something more monstrous by the calculating mind
    Fefonz Quan: demons*
    Pila Mulligan: yes and yes
    Strannik Zipper: so the problem isn't just survival habits, per se
    Fefonz Quan: yes, monsterous by the calculating mind and the blind belief mind
    Pila Mulligan: if Arjuna had been frothing at the mouth, someone else would have been in his chariot
    Strannik Zipper: both of which are fragmentary distortions of being
    Fefonz Quan: and parts of being as well, awkwardly
    Fefonz Quan: (my que sign, leaving silently. bye guys _/!\_ )
    Pila Mulligan: "Stillness and tranquillity set things in order in the universe"
    Pila Mulligan: bye Fefonz
    Strannik Zipper: (nice catting with you! take care)
    Strannik Zipper: er chatting
    Fefonz Quan: (dogging this :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, that was fun
    Strannik Zipper: wow! time passed :)
    Pila Mulligan: 2 quick hours :)
    Strannik Zipper: well, my survival instinct is kicking in, telling me I have to get back to work :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: enjoy
    Strannik Zipper: see you around
    Strannik Zipper: shall I stop the recording?
    Pila Mulligan: bye bye Strannik
    Pila Mulligan: are you GoC?
    Pila Mulligan: you can, or it will automatically turn off when we leave
    Strannik Zipper: more AoC, which was formerly RoC
    Pila Mulligan: ?
    Pila Mulligan: GoC = Guardian (host) for this session
    Pila Mulligan: what is AoC
    Strannik Zipper: oh! hahaha - never mind - no the guardian left
    Pila Mulligan: ;)
    Strannik Zipper: later, then
    Pila Mulligan: bye
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