2009.05.28 01:00 - Logic and Judgement

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fael Illyar. The comments are by Fael Illyar.

    Fael Illyar: Ah, Hi Bert :)
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Fael.
    Fael Illyar was cleaning up her place.
    Fael Illyar: ooo, nice particles :)
    Bertrum Quan: Thanks.
    Fael Illyar: How are you today?
    Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Sophia.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Wow Fael!!!!
    Fael Illyar: The particles are from bert :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ooh <zooms>
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i see now haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: they're collasping on themselves, interesting
    Fael Illyar: That's a common effect for particles... one of the possibilities.
    Fael Illyar: they either go wherever they're going or they all head at a certain object or AV.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: now I want to play with that script lol
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: think i have something similiar
    Fael Illyar: There are example scripts available.
    Fael Illyar: it's not too difficult :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that i can mess with
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :p
    Fael Illyar: it's only barely scripting :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Fael Illyar: So, how are you today Sophia?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive made a sl version of my interpretation of my chakra, as an exersice in what scripts can do
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: each chakra with several scripts to represent the meaning, to me, of the chakra
    Fael Illyar: why scripts?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i wanted to figure them out, and it evolved in this way
    Fael Illyar: I see :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i can not link them though they rotate unpredictably
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (to me anyway)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: am learning
    Fael Illyar: Yes, care needs to be taken when using certain script features.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: another way in which sl can reveal more about yourself
    Fael Illyar: Yes, creating things reveals a lot :)
    Fael Illyar: both in the creations and in the process of creation
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i would use this for the crown :))
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Fael Illyar: lots of particles :)
    Bertrum Quan: true in our cosmos
    Fael Illyar: yes :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Bertrum Quan: What was your best moment today?
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... only been awake for barely an hour :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: making a mess in the yard :)
    Bertrum Quan: Ah. Yesterday, then...
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... yesterday might be waking up from a dream that had me thinking :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh?
    Bertrum Quan: And you Sophia? What kind of mess in the yard?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: need reinforcements :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: trying to remove debris, vines and such :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Pema :)
    Bertrum Quan: So making a mess to create order?
    Pema Pera: Hi Fael, Sophia, Bertrum!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, eventually! hehe
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Pema.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: much like i need to do with some others things as well
    Bertrum Quan: Clearing away the weeds!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i thought a lot about 'unpacking', there in the sunshine, thinking about what it means for me
    Bertrum Quan: Pema, are you in Japan?
    Pema Pera: yes, my last day here
    Pema Pera: tomorrow early I'll fly to Paris
    Pema Pera: by way of New York . . . .
    Fael Illyar: Oh, I need to go. Sorry for leaving early.
    Pema Pera: bye Fael
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Fael!!
    Fael Illyar: See you all later :)
    Bertrum Quan: bye Fael.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: to Paris from tokyo, by way of New York?
    Pema Pera: yeah, I know, it doesn't make sense
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oops Japan sorry
    Pema Pera: 35 hours from one hotel to the other
    Pema Pera: complicated bureaucracy rules . . . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, the long way
    Pema Pera: . . . related to which research institute pays me for which visit
    Pema Pera: fortunately I don't mind flying
    Pema Pera: gives me a lot of quiet time to get work done :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes a bit of time
    Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Corvi :)
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello, ya'll. Good to see you.
    Pema Pera: Corvi, how have the discussions been going about a possible RL retreat center for PaB?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I have been thinking a lot of what it is to 'unpack' any thoughts?
    Pema Pera: unpack in which way, Sophia?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the word came up in another sessions here, the topic isn't important, but the word unpack came up as in, a statement had not been 'unpacked' - to analize a statement
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ohhh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: critically
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: unpack..is so cool an idea...to take an idea apart into it's bits.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and then..ya get to take the bits apart...
    Pema Pera: what was your thinking about unpacking?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, but i have just started researching forms of logic
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: like what?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and i dont know how far to go down this road
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which road?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: everything corvi, mainly why i am so judgemental
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but there are other things
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs just a little...could you unpack that bit about judgemental a bit?
    Pema Pera: :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i judge because i learned that certain ideas are not acceptable
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods, thoughtfully.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I learned these ideas from people that I do not respect in some ways.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the ideas that some ideas are not acceptable?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: some ideas, but more about people or groups
    Pema Pera: (sorry, I'm being called back to RL . . .)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)) bye Pema
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...I see...I am glad I got to see you, Pema, it's been a while!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: have a good..evening?
    Pema Pera: (sorry to have to wrap up my presence at the unpacking . . . )
    Bertrum Quan: Have a good and a safe trip
    Pema Pera: afternoon still :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol have a safe trip Pema!!!
    Pema Pera: close to dinner time, that's why I'm being called away
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: enjoy dinner, then!
    Pema Pera: thank you all -- see you soon again!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire packs Pema in a suitcase.
    SophiaSharon Larnia laughs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the problem with my thinking, and I suspect others to, is that it is judgement based
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i need to remove that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or at least pretend
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Judgement isn't all bad, surely?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not in all cases 100%
    Bertrum Quan: The image of unpacking is a good one -- to unpack one's mind... to see clearly
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it an 'avalanche' for me lol
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: In christianity..the phrase is..judge the sin, not the sinner...nods to Bertrum....which I suggest means..think about actions...consider them....and be compassionate.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to the people.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: though...what appears sin...wrongness...might be a misperception at times?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but Pema said something to me the other day that is correct, that the way i was thinking was a trap
    Corvuscorva Nightfire listens..
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and I do it all the time.......
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it has to end
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's easiest to judge one's self harshly sometimes.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Corvi I agree with above
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: compassion begins at home.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what is compassion
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what is home
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Geo, one of the guardians, taught me this concept....
    Bertrum Quan: Home can be yourself!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Bertrum....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: home is where the heat is
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: snickers.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: heart* giggles
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like the first sentence.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yea me too
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's certainly where we put the heat on....
    SophiaSharon Larnia: home is where i hang my hat
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and sticks a hat on Sophia's head.
    SophiaSharon Larnia pulls hat over eyes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: someone once told me that some people are easier to love than others.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: gentler maybe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and that those people..the ones easy to love...teach us what love is...so that we can expand the idea.
    Bertrum Quan: And understand suffering.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: compassion is...observing with a clear sight.
    SophiaSharon Larnia drinks some more cofee
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles...
    SophiaSharon Larnia <<<<backs>
    SophiaSharon Larnia: emapthy is not sypathy
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sympathy
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...
    Bertrum Quan: Need to unpack my day now and get some sleep.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nor is it exactly compassion...sleep well, Bertrum.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bertrym, sorry for the word babbles
    Bertrum Quan: Hope you both have a fine day!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I hope you have good dreaming.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: compassion is seeing clearly, empathy is not sypathy
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for me, empathy is easier than compassion.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: compassion requires me to be even more deeply involved..and less involved with "self" and it's concerns.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but, it's the most fun of the three, to the extent I can manage it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like your word babbles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i know the difference between empathy and sympathy but have trouble feeling them differently
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have a hard time separating it from self
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes hard to babble to yourself, and babble out of a probem
    SophiaSharon Larnia grins
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...grins.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: you like math?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you dont recognize the false thinking
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what kinds of problems do you like to solve?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: enjoy solving?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the problems that i 'solve' on a daily basis are occupational, how to get something done, time-wise
    SophiaSharon Larnia: involving different dpartment
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: do you like doing that?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not really, the day passes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...do you hate it?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: only the human characters involved in the drama :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oops
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the problems..you like solving?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not the people but their dramas
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...the threads you like unraveling, smoothing, straightening?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: making the path easy...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: philosophically or in daily life?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...yanno...the dramas..the people...are knots in the path...no wonder they frustrate you!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: either.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I tend to think in sensory concepts..so...if they don't make sense to you, tell me to back up.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i just knbow i have trapped myself, my thinking on 'being' and 'self' have become so convoluted I need to develop new ways of thinking
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: unpack that a little?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: grins
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive taken classes on critical thinking, but not 'logic'
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: tell me the difference.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: critiacal thinking is an umbrella term, that encompasses different types of using logical systems
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh brother
    SophiaSharon Larnia: typo queen sorries
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: smiles warmly.....you should see all I type and erase.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so..what are you learning about logic?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Critical thinking is purposeful and reflective judgment about what to believe or what to do[1] in response to observations, experience, verbal or written expressions, or arguments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that there are many different techniques that can be used (which i already knew)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah...not just logi but also clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, deptth, breadth, significance and fairness ((from Wikipedia))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but itwill take a lot of time and effort to do properly and I'm not sure if this is the right way to go
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and logic?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: right way to go to do what?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: to change my thinking
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ..."in particular, related to being and "self?" or in general?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive looked at everything i have written in the last 2 years and the thinking represented there is very disjointed
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: written about what?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: my thoughts, you know blog stuff and poems
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...smiles..grins...ahhhhhh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well...good then!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: more on philosophical concepts like 'being' and 'self' but will be helpful in life
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: perhaps that reflects that you've approached concepts in many different ways?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and not limited yourself
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes like a bee trying to get out of a closed window bang bang bang
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs at the image, nodding.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so there must be a better way
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think..from what I've read..that is what most folks who get to enlightenment do...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bang against the window over and over til they find the crack
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: like Buddha yanno?
    SophiaSharon Larnia laughs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: he was a bit of a wanker to hear the stories...til he figured out how not to be.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but without the window banging...he'd never have been the buddha.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: why bother?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive heard many times that reason and logic are not much use here, so gave myself permission to not use any!!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: at least is how it seems
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: when I was in college I heard there were alot of paths to something or another....and that logic/reason/intellect was one.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I liked that one...and have used it to get a ways.
    SophiaSharon Larnia nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know much about being and self, not really.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but I think there might be alot of appropriate approaches.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: myconclusions are based on assumptions that are unsubstantiated
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the thing that I think is least helpful, is telling yourself you're doing it wrong.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: true
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so to analyze these assumptions.... i realize that no conclusion is truely known for a fact
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i meant assumptions is known for a fact oops
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so can not make conclusions that are fact, if not assumption is a fact
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think of facts as true within a web of facts...within this web...this is true.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: babbles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so htat it is absolute within the web..and the relative part is that the webs are relative to each other.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you for the babbles Corvi!!!!!
    SophiaSharon Larnia thinks
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins...rolls her eyes...I'm a great babbler too.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes you are right about absolute/relative
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmmmmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so assumptions within a specific frame of reference
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...you can count on some things within the right frame of reference.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok, i will process that
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: they are "true" within that frame.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that is a better tack to take
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