2009.05.29 01:00 - Happiness, empathy and commitment

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    Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this long and at times overexcited session.

    Wol Euler: morning fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
    Wol Euler: how are you today?
    Fael Illyar: I'm well. You?
    Wol Euler: quite well, thanks. Looking forward to a quiet half-day at work and then a weekend
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Wol Euler: oh! a long weekend even! Monday off. cool.
    Fael Illyar: Funny how I woke up at 5AM last night to a shock at figuring out an answer to a problem and then even figuring out how to relate it to others but ... now I find I can't remember what it was :)
    Wol Euler laughs sympathetically.
    Fael Illyar: the problem is gone though :P
    Wol Euler: well, that is good.
    Fael Illyar: ... although I find I forgot what it was.
    Wol Euler: so you solved it without knowing what it was?
    Fael Illyar: hmmh, might be :)
    Fael Illyar: it felt quite clear at the time.
    Fael Illyar: perhaps some beliefs I have muddle the waters so I can't even recall it now :)
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    Fael Illyar: or then I just dreamed waking up and looking at the time on my cellphone
    Fael Illyar: which would handily explain why it's forgotten now :)
    Wol Euler: so you dreamed about having a dream? wow
    Fael Illyar: well, not sure :)
    Fael Illyar: maybe :)
    Wol Euler grins
    Fael Illyar: would have to be pretty convincing dream to feel like this :)
    Wol Euler: how are the gerbils? are they accepting you again?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, been for a while :)
    Fael Illyar: I eventually started noticing what was scaring them.
    Wol Euler: ah! and that was?
    Fael Illyar: my own fear that I didn't know was there at first.
    Wol Euler: ooh. do tell
    Fael Illyar: or more precisely didn't want to know :)

    But we were interrupted by the arrival of a Person from Second Life, and never discovered what it was!

    Wol Euler: morning tarmel
    Wol Euler: or rather good evening :)
    Fael Illyar: morning Tarmel :)
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Fael & Wol
    Tarmel Udimo: a small space

    Anticipating that few would attend, I had shrunk the Playgoda's seating down to the inner eight cushions.

    Fael Illyar: yes, it's rare anyone uses the commands to make this place like this:)
    Wol Euler nods and smiles. I remembered this alternative in Storm's session last night
    Tarmel Udimo: nods, so how do you command the pagoda to shrink?
    Wol Euler: hehehehehh, that doesn't work.
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Wol Euler: were you in PaB when we still met at the Pavilion, tarmel?
    Tarmel Udimo: NO
    Wol Euler: ah, it was a very nice space too, much smaller and more intimate. More enclosed
    Fael Illyar: is the pavilion still there by the way, do you know?
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Wol Euler: yes, very much so. I stop by and sit there from time to time
    Wol Euler: even the coffee machine is still there
    Fael Illyar: so a forgotten place, mostly :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm, this space always seems big for the 1:00am sessions
    Tarmel Udimo: and where is the pavillion?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it does :)
    Wol Euler: in Rieul, near the Hall of Appearances
    Fael Illyar dug up an old landmark
    Wol Euler: I don't have a LM, but we could go there afterwards
    Wol Euler: or that :)
    Wol Euler: ty
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks Fael, I used to go there alot before Pab:)
    Wol Euler: ah!
    Fael Illyar: there?
    Wol Euler: so right place but wrong question :)
    Tarmel Udimo: let me look for the landmark

    Tarmel goes off to have a look, leaving the rest of us feeling nostalgic.

    Fael Illyar is suddenly feeling rather irresistible urge to tp to the old pavilion :P
    Wol Euler: hello sophiasharon
    Wol Euler: hehehe
    Fael Illyar: Hi SophiaSharon :)
    Wol Euler: we could ...
    Wol Euler: have to log by hand but that is no problem
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what happened here ? lol
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: something shrunk
    Wol Euler: this is the "early morning reduced setting"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ahh!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    Fael Illyar: just, most don't remember to use it :)
    Wol Euler is feeling virtual nostalgia :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i miss the sound
    Fael Illyar: fountain?
    Wol Euler: we were talking about hte place we used to meet, before Storm built the Playgoda
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh :)))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: tea house?
    Wol Euler: there is alas no mini-fountain setting.
    Wol Euler: the pavilion
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I think I have been there, looking around :))
    Fael Illyar: wb Tarmel :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Bert :)
    Wol Euler: wb
    Wol Euler: and hello bertrum
    Fael Illyar: at this rate, we'll be full in no time :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Tarmel, Hi Bertrum
    Tarmel Udimo: ty
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Sophia and Hi Bertrum
    Fael Illyar: reminiscing the old pavilion meeting today :)
    Bertrum Quan: Hi everyone.
    Wol Euler: how is everyone today?
    Bertrum Quan: Fine and you?
    Wol Euler: quite well, ty.

    SophiaSharon says today's Secret Word — happy — and starts us off in earnest.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) I woke up this morning feeling very happy, flushed with warmth upon awakening, and once awake it abated a bit....wanted to hold on to it.
    Wol Euler: awww :) do you remember waht you were dreaming?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not one single bit :))
    Fael Illyar: Oh, I was happy too waking up today :)
    Wol Euler: it must have been a good dream though :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I dont know, I just felt it's loss once real life asserted tself
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i wonder
    Fael Illyar: wonder?
    Fael Illyar: I managed to keep it while still in bed, even though it almost faltered as I noticed it :)
    Tarmel Udimo: just had a look at the old pavillion its a very nice vibe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i wonder how to hold onto it
    Fael Illyar: you hold to it by not holding :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia nods
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Fael Illyar: just thinking it needs to be held pushes it away
    Fael Illyar: (okok, believing it needs to be held)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: what other method would you use to maintain the feeling state?
    Fael Illyar: rather a non method :)
    Tarmel Udimo: OK what non- method?
    Fael Illyar: happiness is when you just love. Getting stuck to how reality differs (even if the difference itself is imaginary) from how you want things to be is poison to happiness.

    Bertrum is curious.

    Bertrum Quan: But how do you react when you see the daily news?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it was love i felt
    Bertrum Quan: Is it always a good thing to be focused on happiness?
    Fael Illyar: what good will it do for anyone if you feel unhappy watching morning news?
    Wol Euler: I don't see the daily news, Bertrum, it was a deliberate decision several decades ago. If anyhting important happens, somebody will tell me about it
    Fael Illyar: I don't watch television at all :)
    Wol Euler: and I am spared much heartache of listening to things I cannot change that happened to people I will never know in places I will never visit
    SophiaSharon Larnia: if being happy is love, and being unhappy is seeing how reality differs from what we want it to be, than is to stustain that, do we love that reality, appreciate it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so difficult
    Wol Euler: yes
    Fael Illyar: no, unhappiness is not seeing how the reality differs from what we want it to be. It's getting stuck there.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: I think its ok to have different emotions, not just happiness but as you say fael not get stuck there or cling them
    Tarmel Udimo: I have never met a person who is happy 100% of the time:)
    Bertrum Quan: I feel it is important to care about what's happening in the world.l If we are indeed connected to our fellow beings, then their suffering is out suffering.
    Tarmel Udimo: I would like to :)
    Fael Illyar: that's almost an impossibility :)
    Wol Euler: yeah, they'd be either mad or on some pretty heavy drugs :)
    Fael Illyar: Bert, caring is different from being unhappy.
    Tarmel Udimo: right so being 'happy' isn't the solution
    Fael Illyar: (and no, not necessarily mad) :)
    Fael Illyar: (unless you mean someone who just looks happy 100% of the time)
    Bertrum Quan: How can you feel as a primary emotion happiness, when you what you confront carnage? confront suffering? Even if the carnage is far away, it matters when people are being slaugtered in their Mosques, in the marketplaces, at their jobs.

    It seems (to Fael and I) that Bertrum finds something unworthy in being happy while others are suffering.

    Fael Illyar: on what basis do you deny yourself happiness for seeing other people's suffering?
    Fael Illyar wonders... did Bert watch the 'Validation' video?
    Tarmel Udimo: If you never see it or confront it or think about then perhaps you can maintain happiness within that bubble
    Fael Illyar: Hello sophia :)
    Bertrum Quan: If happiness is an emotion, then it's not about denying oneself anything, But rather it is about empathy for the suffering that is all around us.
    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    Tarmel Udimo: I have to say I am grateful for people who deal with the carnage
    Wol Euler: sure! absolutely.
    Tarmel Udimo: hi Sohia - a new you:)
    Fael Illyar: joy is an emotion. Happiness is just love.
    Wol Euler: and I support them with my vote and my voice and my tax money and voluntary donations
    Wol Euler: more than that I cannot do.
    sophia Placebo: hehe tarmel , it is spring effect
    Wol Euler: even if I weren't a physical coward and 51 years old, I wold not go to [random crisis spot] to intervene in [random crisis]
    Tarmel Udimo: lovely Sophia
    Tarmel Udimo: none of us would:)
    Wol Euler: nice profile pic too ;-)
    Fael Illyar: intervening in one doesn't really sound to me like it'd be helpful.
    sophia Placebo: ty hehe wol , as nice as the person who made it :)
    Wol Euler grins
    Tarmel Udimo: some of us can live in this peaceful environment far away from the madness of war but it does exist

    Can — may — a compassionate and engaged person be happy?

    Bertrum Quan: But there still can be engagement with the world...
    Wol Euler: there is engagement, but it does not preclude joy or happiness or love
    Tarmel Udimo: and for those people who are engaged with this that life we feel compassion
    Bertrum Quan: There must be. Otherwise, this idea of love, compassion--is mere talk.
    Tarmel Udimo: and we either decide to do something about ie go and fight or help or we have to get on with out lives
    Fael Illyar: If one becomes unhappy just because someone else is unhappy and everyone follows the suit. No-one can ever be happy.
    Tarmel Udimo: I think perhaps the word is not right
    Tarmel Udimo: I don't feel unhappy when I see or think about the disaprity
    Tarmel Udimo: for humans
    Tarmel Udimo: Its a bitter sweet emotion
    Bertrum Quan: Fael, I don't share your definition of happiness, In my view it is a psychological state.

    Is it acceptable to seek happiness?

    Bertrum Quan: Seeking happiness strikes me as escapist...
    Fael Illyar: or then a serious lack of it.
    Fael Illyar: but if someone is seeking it, it's sad since seeking it is the best way to keep it away.
    Tarmel Udimo: this implies that we must never be actively engaged in going after what we want:)
    Wol Euler: I think that happiness is a byproduct, it comes from being immersed in doing good things well
    Fael Illyar: No it doesn't :)
    Fael Illyar: it points at your motives, not at what you do.
    Fael Illyar: your motives tell about your beliefs
    Fael Illyar: if you seek happiness, you believe you don't have it.
    Fael Illyar: that's the best way to keep it away
    Wol Euler: I'm curious how far we should go with this idea. Would you have us refuse happiness when we feel it arising? Should we forbid ourselves that?
    Bertrum Quan: I think think that is the issue.
    sophia Placebo: likes fael sentence about seeking happiness
    Bertrum Quan: Sorry. I don't think that is the issue at all.
    Wol Euler: well, I'm wondering what to do with the idea.
    sophia Placebo: but that is if happiness is something you can define and count fael me thinks
    Bertrum Quan: It's not about refusing happiness.
    Fael Illyar: you can't define what it is but you can say what it is not :)
    Tarmel Udimo: and if hwat makes us happy can be defined by one thing or one approach
    sophia Placebo: if i say my happiness is to have a big palace or a big family or a big closet full of shoes or a nobel prize
    Wol Euler: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: when Wol said it: it comes from being immersed in doing good things well
    Wol Euler: then you would probably be deluding yourself, I fear.
    Tarmel Udimo: this makes sense as its very Wol
    sophia Placebo: well many times we do wol
    Tarmel Udimo: this maynot make Fael happy or Bertrum:0
    Wol Euler: hehehehe, true.
    Wol Euler: my happiness is your boredom
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Tarmel Udimo: I nevy those that can be made happy by a closet full of shoes:)
    Tarmel Udimo: envy
    sophia Placebo: hehe
    Fael Illyar: think about what happens in your minds when you're doing something that makes you happy.
    Tarmel Udimo: Fael is happy by loving
    Tarmel Udimo: I am happy by creating
    Fael Illyar: Isn't it true that you forget all the bad things in your life?
    Wol Euler smiles and nods

    Bertrum restates his question.

    Bertrum Quan: My question perhaps can be stated this way. Whay is it that what's happening in the world bear so little on these discussion about exporation of reality.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Bertrum
    Wol Euler: fael, more than that: for me it arises while I am forgetting everything but the _doing_ of what engages me
    Fael Illyar: yes, and that doing is not a bad thing :)
    Fael Illyar: Bert, we're not exploring the world here. We're exploring the mind.
    Tarmel Udimo: being unhappy is just not caused by bad things
    Bertrum Quan: And is the mind separate from reality?
    Tarmel Udimo: being happy is a state of mind, that makes us feel that everything is OK
    Fael Illyar: no, not at all :)
    Tarmel Udimo: however we can feel other states of mind, like peace, contentment
    Tarmel Udimo: etc, these are all variations on the same theme
    Tarmel Udimo: however within those states we can also acknowledge other states like sadness for the state of the world
    Wol Euler: perhaps because they are not _our_ reality, Bertrum?
    Tarmel Udimo: it feels simplistic fael to say that being happy is the solution to all our problems
    sophia Placebo: happiness to me is part from being gratfull and thankfull like i fell happy that my brother wasnt hurt in car accidant
    Fael Illyar: Tarmel, did I say that?
    Wol Euler nods
    Fael Illyar: I'm simply talking about what happiness is
    Fael Illyar: (and isn't)
    Bertrum Quan: Hard to be a member of the human race , Wol, and not have all of it part of our reality.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: /nods
    Wol Euler shrugs. That depends how you define "reality", Betrtum. I am not blind to others' suffering
    Fael Illyar: if you look at it strictly, the morning news is just a picture on the screen of your television. Why do you choose to take the picture from it as your reality?
    Wol Euler: but I spend my energy and my time on things that _I_ can change.
    Fael Illyar: (not saying you shouldn't)
    Wol Euler: on people whom _I_ can help
    Wol Euler: I think the condition of Palestine is appalling, but I cannot change it while sitting here. Neither can you.
    sophia Placebo: i watch news occasionally , feels that it is the least i can do to those who sffer is not to ignore the existance of their suffering
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Bertrum Quan: And we have something of an obligation
    Bertrum Quan: to commit ourselves to the well-being of our fellow humans.

    My inner referee blew her whistle and sent me off the field, to the amusement of the others.

    Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I am getting too attached to this. I'll give myself a timeout to calm down :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, there we agree... but I don't do it out of obligation. I do it because I want to.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) Fael
    Tarmel Udimo: its good to get engaged with the topic Wol, we can take it:)
    Bertrum Quan: To be indifferent to suffering is to be infferent to compassion
    Fael Illyar: Tarmel, it's taxing to get overly excited :)
    Fael Illyar: (not to mention detrimental to actually accomplishing anything)
    sophia Placebo: agree bret
    Tarmel Udimo: gee well I don't know fael, I like getting overly excoted sometimes
    Fael Illyar: no indifference being suggested by anyone here.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that is a concept I'm grappling withBertum
    Tarmel Udimo: excited
    Tarmel Udimo: it kind of gets the energy going:)
    Tarmel Udimo: and its ok to be passionate about things
    Tarmel Udimo: if we were in Latino or Jamaicain company we would be getting very excitable
    Fael Illyar: there's so much variety here :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes we would be waving our arms around and topping up the rum punch glasses
    Fael Illyar: being passionate is good as long as it doesn't completely take over so you lose sight of everything else. When that happens it becomes counterproductive.
    Tarmel Udimo: putting on music and generally being very loud and silly:)
    Tarmel Udimo: not sure if dancing in the streets is counterproductive or not, but thats what happnes in the Carnival
    Fael Illyar: depends on the situation of course :)
    Wol Euler: back
    Fael Illyar: words have too many meanings :)
    Tarmel Udimo: Rumi's passion for good created some of the world's most beautiful peotry
    sophia Placebo: see you all soon :)
    Wol Euler: bye sophia, enjoy the day.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Sophia :)
    Fael Illyar: See you soon sophia :)
    Bertrum Quan: bye Sophia
    Tarmel Udimo: have you calmed down Wol:)
    Wol Euler: somewhat :)

    A newborn drifts through the Playgoda.

    Fael Illyar: Hello Newborn
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Newborn
    Wol Euler: hello Newborn
    Wol Euler: welcome to second life, two days old.
    Newborn: hi
    Tarmel Udimo: hi Newborn
    Wol Euler: join us, we don't bite.
    Wol Euler: right-click on a cushion and select "sit"
    Neill Loxingly: Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt. Just exploring.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Wol Euler: or not
    Wol Euler: ah well, lost another one to Mara 
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what is Mara, Wol?
    Wol Euler: in a word: worldly temptation
    Tarmel Udimo: Maya;)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: maya
    Wol Euler: choosing hte lower path, as it were :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: my nieces name lol
    Tarmel Udimo: powerful name
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: off to begin my day, have a great day everyone :))
    Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care

    I am unable to let things rest, and return to the game.

    Wol Euler: [2:00] Bertrum Quan: And we have something of an obligation to commit ourselves to the well-being of our fellow humans.
    Wol Euler: could you expand on that, please?
    Bertrum Quan: Is it not clear?
    Wol Euler: it is very unclear to me. I hear the words, but what should I do about them?
    Tarmel Udimo: [2:02] Fael Illyar: Yes, there we agree... but I don't do it out of obligation. I do it because I want to.
    Tarmel Udimo: you may have missed that
    Wol Euler: agreed, Tarmel/Fael
    Fael Illyar: if I was doing it out of obligation and not want... I would not be doing it properly.
    Fael Illyar: the end result could easily be worse than not even trying
    Bertrum Quan: Without question, we should naturally commit ourselves to the well-being of our fellow humans.
    Fael Illyar smiles 'I wonder if Wol finds that more clear?'
    Tarmel Udimo: Are you wanting an example Wol?
    Wol Euler: I find it ... I don't know what to do with the words. It's Friday, 11:23 am, what should I do next?
    Bertrum Quan: You have the rest of the day, Wol. The entire afternoon!
    Wol Euler: and what shall I do?
    Wol Euler: does my commitment take a physical form?
    Wol Euler: is there an official t-shirt?
    Bertrum Quan: This is how it think it's especially relevant. The meditations that we do should help us clear our minds so that each of us, in our own way, singly or collectively, find the answer to your question.
    Fael Illyar likes that answer.
    Wol Euler: so in fact there is no external way to tell whether somebody is already deeply engaged
    Bertrum Quan: The initial point of discussion had to do with emotional states--quite internal.
    Wol Euler: right

    A realization floats to the surface of my consciousness.

    Wol Euler smiles. I know why this annoys me so much, and it actually has little to do with what we have been talking about. I'm sorry, I am arguing across this discussion.
    Tarmel Udimo: tell us more?
    Wol Euler: well, it starts with my possible miss-or overinterpretation of Bertrum's suggestion that is is somehow wrong to be happy while others are suffering
    Fael Illyar: (the initial point was simply just how to hold to happiness ... but I digress)
    Tarmel Udimo: that was my understanding of what Betrum was saying
    Fael Illyar: (my interpretation too, actually)
    Bertrum Quan: I didn't use the words wrong or right. But I was attempting to pose my question without the judgement. And for further discussion.
    Tarmel Udimo: and my talking across what Fael was sayying because sometimes my deepest happiness has been pretty hard won
    Wol Euler: [1:31] Bertrum Quan: How can you feel as a primary emotion happiness, when you what you confront carnage? confront suffering? Even if the carnage is far away, it matters when people are being slaugtered in their Mosques, in the marketplaces, at their jobs.
    Bertrum Quan: Indeed. Food for thought.
    Fael Illyar: the judgement still shines through that sentence quite clearly.
    Bertrum Quan: Folks blown up as the mediate in their mosques, churches, synagogs
    Wol Euler: what should I do about it though? Am I to reject and thrust behind me all pleasure and happiness until world peace arrives?
    Bertrum Quan: No, not at all.
    Fael Illyar: (the good news is, no-one can prevent themselves to be happy bcause of others suffering ... or if they can, they won't survive for long)
    Tarmel Udimo: It presses all our buttons because we know that we have it all and many others don't and yet still we are unhappy sometimes, why? this I believe is really the issue
    Wol Euler nods. Because happiness is about being, not about having.
    Fael Illyar: in fact, in the west, where "we have it all" we're likely even a bit more unhappy because of it...
    Wol Euler: the alcoholism and divorce rates would tell you that people in Beverly Hills mansions are at least as desperate and as miserable as in Brooklyn
    Bertrum Quan: I wondered how we can use what is happening all around to deepen our practice. Buddhist concept of compassion has been a focal point of a number of PaB session for example.
    Bertrum Quan: That's the direction I'm coming from tonight.
    Tarmel Udimo: for me compassion is seeing clearly what 'is' and therefore being able to see what is needed
    Bertrum Quan: I also believe that we are all connected on some level. That ties us to what is happening in the world.
    Fael Illyar: we're all connected but what exactly it means ...
    Tarmel Udimo: its being able to withstand seeing the the awful things that are happening and knowing that perhaps you can't do anything unless you want to go there and fight or help
    Tarmel Udimo: its also about being authetic to the moment and engaing with it moment by moment in a passionate way
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: which is for me the moment in which happiness is most likely to arise, btw
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Fael Illyar: the moment you imagine nothing, you are the most happy person.
    Wol Euler: interesting that both Fael and myself heard an explicit criticism in the phrase "How can you be happy when..." Perhaps that says something about how we grew up?
    Bertrum Quan: Perhaps. It was a question.
    Wol Euler nods
    Fael Illyar: I've heard that phrasing quite a few times I think. In tone that is blatantly accusing.
    Wol Euler: it often is, yes.
    Tarmel Udimo: and even if it was acussing how interesting that we fell into being defensive
    Wol Euler nods
    Tarmel Udimo: or feeling accussed
    Bertrum Quan: Defensive responses can also be a way to evade an issue...
    Wol Euler: and passively voiced general observations can also be used to make personal criticisms
    Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I shall have to go to work. I've claimed the session, and will post it this evening.
    Wol Euler: enjoy the day, friends.
    Wol Euler: bye for now

    A statement of undeniable truth and clarity.

    Tarmel Udimo: I think we all acknowledging that there's a whole lot of crap going on out there:)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Wol :)
    Tarmel Udimo: by
    Tarmel Udimo: well the DVD I rented has been plating the opening titles for a while now, so I will log off and watch it:)
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Tarmel :)
    Tarmel Udimo: have a good night or morning both of you:)
    Bertrum Quan: Take care Tarmel.
    Bertrum Quan: What time in the morning is it for you Fael?
    Fael Illyar: 12:50
    Fael Illyar: you?
    Bertrum Quan: West coast USA. Early am... almost the opposite.
    Fael Illyar: Yes, there's +10 to SLT for Finland
    Fael Illyar: handy to have relatively easy calculation :)
    Bertrum Quan: Interesting about your thoughts about happiness. Finland (according to news reports) has the highest satisfaction rates among its citizens. We discussed that once before.
    Fael Illyar: Yes, we did :) But my own happiness has been increasing rather fast after starting at PaB.
    Fael Illyar: propably wasn't quite at the top, even if I'd propably have said so if I'd been asked.
    Bertrum Quan: Yes. It is interesting, though. That sense of happiness for a country!
    Bertrum Quan: I ought to get some sleep. Always good to see you.
    Fael Illyar: I'd guess it's most likely that people are ashamed to admit, even to themselves to being unhappy.
    Fael Illyar: Allright, Good night Bert :)
    Bertrum Quan: Have a good day, Fael.
    Fael Illyar: Sleep well Bert :)


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