2009.05.29 07:00 - Idealism?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was quen Oh. The comments are by quen Oh.

    When I arrived nobody was there. When I answered a rl phonecall Gaya appeared.

    quen Oh: hi Gaya!~
    quen Oh: sorry was afk, phone
    quen Oh: how are you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hey quen :) How are you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good thanks :)
    quen Oh: here too, very busy here
    quen Oh: oops totally missed the bell
    Gaya Ethaniel: You look busy yes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
    quen Oh: ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: How was the trips?
    Gaya Ethaniel: were*
    quen Oh: very nice!! Copenhagen is an inspiring cityu
    Gaya Ethaniel: Haven't been there yet :) What were the inspiring elements?
    quen Oh: very neat and carefully designed public space, imginative and refreshing arhitecture and well lot of things in Danish life seem 'designed'
    Gaya Ethaniel: Interesting ... designed as in well thought out?
    quen Oh: also it was clean and city is very well adapted for bicycles
    quen Oh: yes, they have all kind of nice designed things, from cutlery to the litter bins in the streets
    quen Oh: fashionable people in the streets
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :I'm sure you have soft spot for bikes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It sounds like a very pleasant place to live.
    quen Oh: well if the terrain is more or less flat it is an excellent means of transport in the city
    quen Oh: it is, only it is a bit more expensive than we are used too, they have higher taxes
    quen Oh: but on the other hand communal live seems very well organised
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yeah ... try biking up the Highgate Hill in London, puts you off cycling forever ..<
    Gaya Ethaniel: >.<
    quen Oh: hahaha
    quen Oh: yep, it is nice, but flat terrain really is a requirement
    Gaya Ethaniel: Communal live?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Public spaces you mean?
    quen Oh: but than it is a durable, clean and healthy means of transport
    quen Oh: that, but also public services, schooling, healthcare and so more
    quen Oh: that is what I heard anyway, have no experience with that
    quen Oh: though I was impressed with the very nice student housing for example
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's a common theme in the Nordic countries it seems.
    quen Oh: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Do you think it all comes down to higher taxes and using that more effectively?
    quen Oh: and it really seems to make life more pleasant and provides stability to people
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    quen Oh: especially the latter
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... environment effects us a lot.
    Gaya Ethaniel: affects*
    quen Oh: the danger of having a huge public and govermental sector is that money and energy is waisted in bureaucracy
    quen Oh: and in meaningless 'democratic' processes
    quen Oh: also they seem far with durable environmental issues!
    Gaya Ethaniel nods nods.
    quen Oh: when effectiveness is good, corruption is almost non-existing and bureaucracy is low, there can be a healthy trust in the government and public sector, which makes life more secure and pleasurable
    quen Oh: that way you happily pay taxes, instead of all kinds of expensive personal insurances which depend on the market, on your personal financial situation and so on
    Gaya Ethaniel: Wonder how they achieve it so well ... I hear so much about corruption these days both in UK and in Korea ... (the former president commited suicide)
    quen Oh: in US social democracy is often compared with 'communism', the latter is non-democratic enforced sharing, where the motivational aspect to make the best of things often is ignored
    quen Oh: it is weird corruption is still so wide-spread... transparency in politics and decision-making should be way more easy in this ICT era, wouldn't you think?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... well in fact the technology also allows more ways to 'hide' things as one of my former customer described.
    quen Oh: interesting Gaya, what kind of things?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was talking to an IT company who was breaking copyright law ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: They bascially told me that whatever we try, they will find a way 'out' using technology.
    quen Oh: you mean breaking copyrights? I guess that is indeed way more easier, as we can duplicate and share more easy now
    Gaya Ethaniel: But essentially the difficulties were caused by reluctance of government officials to get invovled in.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes what I mean is technology can be used for various effects ...
    quen Oh: I heared more companies complain about 'old politics' not wanting to join discussions about cooperation in regulating new technologies and developements..
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Guess they are letting the market to work it out?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or ... are they having invested interested in standing outside the debate ...?
    Gaya Ethaniel: interests*
    quen Oh: the market will not have any interest to work out environmental problems, as it is not caring whether living conditions and quality of life, it is about making money, and even in that it seems that 'market forces' only take in immedeate short-term ways of least resistance
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Needs a 'direction'
    quen Oh: I guess only the people who profit from the status quo will want to keep it going...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes likely unless they have to change.
    quen Oh: but if you really think about next generations or the millions of people in developing world which are now in hunger or even die in a world of superfluence.. it is hard to not want some changes
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think a lot of issues recent ones especially grow out of greedy mentality.
    quen Oh: in my opininion the idea of competition and when you cannot coope (the market force being the 'neutral' referee in that) you suffer the consequence is dangerously close to the holocaust and nazi-ideas...
    Gaya Ethaniel: What do you mean? The danger of idealism?
    quen Oh: darwinistic principles don't make a civilised world... greediness and kapitalism based on competition only is to ignore the very human capacity for adaptation as a GROUP and intelligent cooperation..
    quen Oh: 'idealism' in the worst sense, the cold calculating idea of the superhuman, who is solely interested in individual freedom and development...
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's an easy convenient trap to fall into ...
    quen Oh: creating a system which will justify individual greediness and succeeding while harming or disadvantaging others is barbaric
    quen Oh: yes, there is nothing wrong with trying to make the best of things, of your talents and so on, the problem is only that everyone should be allowed to do that, whatever their origin (race, place of birth, sex, etc.)
    quen Oh: it seems that we live in a world where it almost is acceptable (as it is considered 'understandable') to profit from other human beings against their will (as I don't belief there is a human being that would choose to do without enough food, decent basic housing, good education and healthcare)
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm... we do?
    Gaya Ethaniel: live in such a worl?
    Gaya Ethaniel: world*
    quen Oh: well, don't we? if we look at the developing world?
    quen Oh: we have enough food on the planet to feed everyone, we even have a surplus of 10% food
    quen Oh: yet millions die of hunger, because we distribute it badly and we even dare to speculate in grain for instance
    Gaya Ethaniel: I generally feel that things are better than before in that sense.
    quen Oh: a year ago tons of grain were kept in warehouses because of price speculations.. the prices went up enormously
    quen Oh: not for Africa they aren't.
    quen Oh: they were more or less self-supporting after WWII
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes these recent phenomenon ... really caused by greed and we are already feeling the consequences so ...
    quen Oh: they could feed the continent by their own production, they have very nice resources beneath their soil...
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm but we can't just offload a stable political system in Africa ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: To enable that to happen
    quen Oh: now they pay more interest on old debts than they receive in developing money, and what they receive often goes with restrictions that obligates them to join the 'liberal' free international market competition
    quen Oh: no political system will ever be stable when people cannot be sure to have food and some place to live, to get access to healthcare and education..
    quen Oh: they need not our weapon industry, but they could use an international UN 'police' force to provide stable conditions in which people can start to rebuild their countries...
    quen Oh: basic human rights are a requirement in order to create a stable political system I think
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stability doesn't always require human rights ....
    Gaya Ethaniel: Those things thend to come after in my personal experiences however terrible that may sound
    Gaya Ethaniel: tend to*
    quen Oh: otherwise there will always be a fight to survive which will include corruption, nepotism, conflict and other situations that will only benefit a small group of 'stronger' or 'privileged'people
    quen Oh: I seriously doubt that Gaya...
    Gaya Ethaniel: That will be a fact of life ... in a way your view is very idealistic :)
    quen Oh: unless perhaps you consider dictatorship a stable political system...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I cannot imagine a society completely free of corruption etc.
    quen Oh: which it can be, but that requires continuous repression of all oppositional forces

    Donald joined us.

    quen Oh: hi Donald
    Gaya Ethaniel: You believe such a society is possible quen?
    Donald Stourmead: hello
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Donald :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: /phone
    Gaya Ethaniel: and we are ignoring the bell quite often :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Welcome to PlayasBeing Donald.
    Donald Stourmead: best thing to do...
    quen Oh: yes I do, it will take some time, but I do belief more people are starting to see what the world is like today, and that it is in danger because of the lack of cooperation in environmental issues, world poverty, international politics and so on
    Donald Stourmead: thank you. what is the meaning of playasbeing?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Let me give you a notecard about our group ... one moment
    quen Oh: ah that is an interesting question Donald, I will give you the adress of the website too
    quen Oh: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Donald Stourmead: thank you.
    quen Oh: we meet 4 times a day to chat and think and have fun and so on
    quen Oh: feel free to join us
    Donald Stourmead: interesting idea. why 9 seconds?
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's a noble aim to aspire to quen :)
    quen Oh: one thing, the sessions are recorded and the chat logs appear on our Wiki, I hope you don't mind?
    Donald Stourmead: no
    quen Oh: otherwise we can extract your input
    Gaya Ethaniel: But I think it will take a loooong time to get there.
    quen Oh smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: 9 second pauses fits well in our modern setting it seems.
    quen Oh: 1% of your time...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think all of us in this group practice longer formal meditation or if not at all.
    quen Oh: 36 seconds an hour (which is 3600 sec)

    And Donald was gone..

    Gaya Ethaniel: oh did the mention of meditation killed theconversation stone dead? :)
    quen Oh: the idea is that no one should be too busy to direct 1% of his or her time to meditation, something like that, and Gaya you are right, that seems to fit modern settings
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: How long have you been doing 9 seconds now quen?
    quen Oh: well not so long Gaya, I have been trying since half a year I guess, but I am hopeless ;-)
    quen Oh: and you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: It will be almost a year soon for me :)
    quen Oh: nice!
    quen Oh: and how are you cooping?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Ups and down heheheh recently I haven't been doing so regularly which allowed me to observe my relationship to meditation better paradoxically.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I spend more time at Kira with Ways of Knowing workshop these days.
    Gaya Ethaniel: But drop by like today to keep in touch with PaB friends :)
    quen Oh: what do you mean by "my relationship to meditation better paradoxically"?
    quen Oh: that you see it better not-meditating?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I can observe better how/when I meditate ... it's like when I stopped drinking for a long time, I get drunk very quickly with small amount. Making sense?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just investigating how I practice rather than what practices do for me.
    quen Oh: ah I see
    Gaya Ethaniel: gosh, it's already quarter past!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Better get back to RL now ... was lovely seeing you again quen. Hope to see you maybe at Gilles' seminar.
    quen Oh: yes it is, and I ought to do some things here
    quen Oh: likewise Gaya, and yes, see you later :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Have a good day and weekend.
    quen Oh: you too!
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