2009.06.01 13:00 - Appreciation, Theme Session 1

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Gaya!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Did you see Pema's email? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :)
    Stim Morane: I say it just a few minutes ago.
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya, Stim:)
    Stim Morane: Hi Scathach
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema and Wester :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Wester, Pema
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester, Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Stim, Gaya, Wester, Scathach!
    Wester Kiranov: hi gaya, stim, pema, scath
    Pema Pera: Stim, I don't know whether you have read your email today yet
    Stim Morane: I just saw it a few minutes ago
    Pema Pera: is that okay with you, to talk about appreciation and Being today?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Pila!
    Wester Kiranov: hi pila
    Stim Morane: Hi Pila
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
    Pila Mulligan: Greetings everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders if Stim is exercising right to remain silence heheheh
    Pema Pera: (did I miss your answer, Stim?)
    Pema Pera: hehe, Gaya!
    Pila Mulligan: I'm sure I missed the question
    Stim Morane: It's OK with me, although I'm not sure what can be added here ...
    Pema Pera: well, we can always ask questions, Stim :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, OK
    Pema Pera: Perhaps I can start with appreciation.
    Pema Pera: I wonder how you feel about my suggestion to focus the RL PaB workshop on appreciation
    Stim Morane: I don't have any particular thoughts about it. The topic is one of my favorites, though.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    Pema Pera: One of my motivations was that appreciation is something that seems less likely to derail than, say, love or wisdom as a focus
    Pema Pera: hi Sophia!
    Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
    Pila Mulligan: hi Sophia
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
    Stim Morane: Hi Sophia
    Pema Pera: even if appreciation is misunderstood, and taken in too small a way, as it is bound to be at first, that by itself is likely to then grow into a larger appreciation
    sophia Placebo: hi gaya , hi pema , hi wester , hi pila , hi scath , hi stim :)
    Pema Pera: whereas attempts at love or compassion directly can get one stuck into a kind of smothering love, for example
    Pema Pera: of a compassion that is too heavy and self centered
    Wester Kiranov: it's an ambiguous word though
    Stim Morane: I think the risks are comparable.
    Pila Mulligan: what is the intent?
    Stim Morane: I personally teach a lot more about "apprectiation" but that doesn't mean it's free of all the usual problems.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey All :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz:)
    Pema Pera: Hi Fef!
    Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz
    Wester Kiranov: hi fef
    Pema Pera: in what way ambiguous Wester?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
    Pema Pera: hi Wol!
    Stim Morane: hi Wol
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
    sophia Placebo: hello fef hello wol :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello all, sorry I'm late
    Wester Kiranov: it can mean to see, see clearly, or to value
    Wester Kiranov: i was wondering what dutch word i would use
    Pema Pera: waardering
    Pema Pera: but my suggestion would be not to try to pin it down, but rather work with it in an open way, seeing where it leads too
    Pema Pera: Stim, can you say more about how it could go wrong?
    Pema Pera: what pitfalls you see?
    Stim Morane: it has all the same unwanted edges that the other terms and emphases do.
    sophia Placebo: hello mick
    Pema Pera: Hi Mick!
    Stim Morane: But again, I admit I personally focus on it in my own teaching.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: hey,,who's sitting in my seat?
    Pema Pera: how would you answer Wester
    Stim Morane: Hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya everyone
    Pema Pera: concerning how you see appreciation, Stim?
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Pema Pera: [13:11] Wester Kiranov: it can mean to see, see clearly, or to value
    Wester Kiranov: hi mickey - which seat is "yours"?
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I guess so much we see we do not value?
    Stim Morane: Yes, Mick. That's a good starting point.
    Pema Pera: Stim, how would you respond to Wester's question?
    Mickorod Renard: It comes back to this,,being anethetised frrom the passing of life..and our everyday expectation
    Stim Morane: I don't really understand the question, sorry.
    Wester Kiranov: ... or you value "things" instead of appearances
    Wester Kiranov: (to mick)
    Mickorod Renard: yes..
    Fefonz Quan: (should we value only appearances?)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Ara
    Stim Morane: Hi arabella
    Pila Mulligan: an aside: ... will your aim be to perpetuate the SL sense of PaB in a RL workshop?
    sophia Placebo: hi ara
    Pila Mulligan: hi Arabellla
    arabella Ella: hiya everyone!
    Pema Pera: Hi Arabella
    Mickorod Renard: hi Ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara, Eliza
    Stim Morane: Hi Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Last time I talk about appreciation here, Fefonz and Scath's interpretation were very helpful.
    Wester Kiranov: we can valuea apperances as appearances or Being as Being. What else would there be?
    arabella Ella: Hiya Pema good to see you here too :)
    Wol Euler: hello eliza, ara
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella and Eliza :)
    Mickorod Renard: hi Eliza
    Pema Pera: (it seems we have many multiple threads going on, I'm completely lost now)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim, Scath, Everyone :))
    sophia Placebo: hi eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just see for what it is ... but as Mick said perhaps that comes after learning to truly value as well?
    Wester Kiranov: and of course appearances as a p[resentation by Being
    Pila Mulligan: wasn't the question about having the focus of the RL PaB workshop on appreciation?
    Pila Mulligan: hi QT
    Stim Morane: QT
    sophia Placebo: hi Qt
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
    Pema Pera: hi Qt!
    Qt Core: hi all
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Qt
    Mickorod Renard: hi Qt
    Pila Mulligan: SL PaB sessions sometimes have a kind of party like feeling
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Pila Mulligan: RL meetings of course have a stronger personal presence
    Pema Pera: well, Wester asked a question 15 minutes ago; I asked Stim what his answer would be, but since then we haven't heard yet from Stim and Wester -- with many other texts in between
    Mickorod Renard: is there more formal etiquet in RL meets?
    Pila Mulligan: what was Wester's question?
    Stim Morane: Sorry, I'm getting so much lag I can't respond. I'll have to set up a different tcomputer and return.
    Wester Kiranov: cu later then stim
    Wol Euler nods.
    Pila Mulligan: oh, I see it now: [13:14] Wester Kiranov: hi mickey - which seat is "yours"?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Wester Kiranov: :P
    Mickorod Renard: sorry,,was it my fault
    Pila Mulligan: more seriously, I do not see the question Wester posed for real
    Pila Mulligan: can someone please tell me?
    Wester Kiranov: I think Pema was referring to how to interpret "appreciate"
    Wester Kiranov: as seeing or as valuing
    Gaya Ethaniel: [13:11] Wester Kiranov: it can mean to see, see clearly, or to value
    Wester Kiranov: or both or neither
    Pila Mulligan: [13:21] Wester Kiranov: we can valuea apperances as appearances or Being as Being. What else would there be?
    Pila Mulligan: ?
    Fefonz Quan: value sounds very comparatively
    Wol Euler: wb stim
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb Stim :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Stim
    Wester Kiranov: wb stim
    Pema Pera: My answer to Wester was: [13:12] Pema Pera: but my suggestion would be not to try to pin it down, but rather work with it in an open way, seeing where it leads too
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will make a notecard for Stim
    Wester Kiranov: the :21 saying was an answer to fef at :20
    Stim Morane: thanks
    Stim Morane: thanks, Gaya
    Wol Euler: hello tarmel
    sophia Placebo: hi tarmel
    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
    Pema Pera: and then I asked Stim what he considers the answer to Wester's question, which I thought was a very interesting question, of what appreciation means: seeing, valuing, . . .?
    Pema Pera: perhaps we can just start with that last question from scratch
    Stim Morane: the word basically means "seeing the value of"
    Tarmel Udimo: (Hi all)
    Pema Pera: (hi Tarmel)
    Stim Morane: This emphasis is not ideal for our purposes
    Fefonz Quan: (hey Tarmel)
    Pema Pera: can you say more Stim?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tarmel :)
    Stim Morane: I like Mick's idea, of seeing that we don't appreciate ...
    Stim Morane: This is where I would start.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ...
    Pema Pera: how would you work with that then?
    Stim Morane: But I leave it to PaB'ers to determine the rest.
    Pema Pera: you are a PaBer too, Stim :-)
    Stim Morane: My own approaches wouldn't be suitable for this context, since they involve a lot of more detailed, technical practice
    Stim Morane: the main thing is to start with something definite, then refine ...
    Pema Pera: Hi Yak!
    sophia Placebo: hi yak
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Stim Morane: Hi Yakuzza
    arabella Ella: Hiy Yak
    Pema Pera: yes, that makes sense. So shall we discuss the definite part?
    Fefonz Quan: hi Yaku
    Wester Kiranov: hi yaku
    Pema Pera: do you suggest to try to appreciate, and see where you fail -- or just watch and try to notice a lack of appreciation, or . . . ?
    Stim Morane: Both are good points for a beginning.
    Stim Morane: But life offers many opportunities ...
    Fefonz Quan: in a way appereciation seems like an emotional flavor, a little like 'coloring' the appearances with pale pink
    Stim Morane: I'm still getting very long lag times ... well over a minute.
    Wol Euler: wow.
    Stim Morane: So I'm afraid I can't communicate anything under these circumstances. Odd problem ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok Stim thanks for being here :)
    arabella Ella: ehrm ... pink colouring ... just been for a walk and seen immensely beautiful pink coloured clouds
    Wester Kiranov: yeah, we appreciate your appearance stim
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Wol Euler grins
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Stim Morane: You're just entranced by my wonderful avatar, not the real "me"
    arabella Ella: but there is a lot in life which we just walk past without stopping to appreciate or ...
    Fefonz Quan: (in one of Asimovs short stories, he solves the problem of delayes between distant planets, by keepping both sides talking all the time)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :))
    arabella Ella: appearances of avatars u mean Stim :)
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Stim Morane: oh, that actually posted on time.
    arabella Ella nods
    Pila Mulligan: I'd suggest that part of the focus of RL PaB workshops be on yoga, or similar physical exercises
    arabella Ella: breathing too Pila
    Pila Mulligan: such practices may help the dicsussion
    arabella Ella: and help people to get over any initial concerns they may have too
    Pila Mulligan: that physical presence dimension, you know :)
    Pema Pera: yes, there are many ways that we could introduce techniques from many different traditions
    Pila Mulligan: or even just plain (unaffiliated) breathing, as arabella suggested (and as Stim has done in part with some of the Kira workshops)
    Wol Euler: hello gen
    sophia Placebo: hello genesis :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello gen :)
    Wester Kiranov: hi gen
    Stim Morane: Hi gen
    arabella Ella: hiya gen
    Pila Mulligan: hi gen
    Mickorod Renard: hi gen
    Pema Pera: hi there Genesis
    Stim Morane: I have always found that the issue of "appreciation" is best unpacked in person-specific ways, so I don't find it easy to recommend generic approaches. But I agree with Pila.
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi everyone!
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Gen:)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Gen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Can I ask a question even if it's not directly related to the PaB retreat?
    Pema Pera: of course
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stim, your comments about person-specific way, do you mean each of us needs to find a suitable individual appraoch to a certain level?
    Gaya Ethaniel: On practical terms I mean.
    Stim Morane: Gaya, "appreciation" tends to open up in different ways for different people.
    Stim Morane: Some people are very physical, or intuitive, or art-oriented, or affected by interpersonal work, etc.
    Stim Morane: My own teaching is very classical, and emphasizes a lot of detailed contemplative practices.
    Stim Morane: But still there is a need to "personalize" the approach.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok thank you :)
    Stim Morane: I expect the same will be true here.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Stim Morane: Since this topic has been much-discussed in PaB already, perhaps that step has been addressed ...
    Pema Pera: My guess is that we don't try to think to much at the beginning, and that when we seriously do the practice, we will notice what directions it wants to go for us
    Pema Pera: we have a tendency to always want to know at the beginning where an exploration will lead us
    Pema Pera: we want a map, a plan
    Pema Pera: but instead we can just ask the practice itself what it wants
    Pema Pera: we can try to step aside, so to speak, and let it unfold
    Pema Pera: and then report, so that we can help each other with advice
    arabella Ella: if i may ask
    arabella Ella: when we begin to explore ... appreciation
    arabella Ella: and it begins to move in different ways
    arabella Ella: as Stim said ... intuitive for some, physical for others, etc
    arabella Ella: would it be possible to get more feedback on the direction of the exploration
    arabella Ella: some sort of mirroring or reflection
    arabella Ella: mainly as some of us ... or speaking for myself as a novice
    arabella Ella: sometimes feel i am not sure whether i am doing the right thing or not
    Pema Pera: yes, I'm sure; so far we have really not spoken that much about our own experiences with the practice of appreciation -- I suggest that from now on we make a point in really doing so regularly
    arabella Ella: and a sense of insecurity may hold one back from further exploration
    Eliza Madrigal: Some of us can use our sessions this way...setting aside time to discuss the topic
    Pema Pera: and we can all give feedback
    Pema Pera: "the wisdom of the crowd"
    Pema Pera: if nothing else, we can see the great variety of appreciation approaches
    arabella Ella: personally i think feedback could be useful but not just simply positive reinforcement ... more of a sense of direction
    Wester Kiranov: I like ara's point. what do we do with fear, insecurity, etc.
    arabella Ella: even if personal direction
    Pema Pera: and that will stimulate us to explore in other directions than we might have thought about at first
    Mickorod Renard: you are welcome to use the tuesday 1pm slot for that Ara
    arabella Ella: ty
    Gaya Ethaniel: Think direction would need to come from oneself ...
    Pema Pera: in fact, I suggest we use all slots for that, as much as we want
    Gaya Ethaniel: At least at PaB, we don't have a teacher if I understand correctly ... we are students and we are our teachers here I though.
    Pema Pera: Arabella, I don't think we are going to tell you how to appreciate -- but if you tell us how you are exploring appreciation, all of us can be mirrors, give suggestions, compare notes with their own attempts
    Gaya Ethaniel: thought.
    Pema Pera: indeed, Gaya
    Wol Euler: well ...
    Pema Pera: does that sound doable, Arabella?
    arabella Ella nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Though I must admit it's very tempting to email Stim and ask him if I'm doing the WoK homework correct or not >.<
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: where insicurity comes from arabella? if i may ask
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Stim Morane: I wouldn't have an aswer, Gaya ...
    Stim Morane: *answer
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. I know Stim :)
    Wol Euler: gaya, that is a point that concerns me, and (if the group is willing) I would like to discuss that at anohter session
    arabella Ella: well sophia if each of us is conducting our own explorations ...
    arabella Ella: and even if we discuss them here or elsewhere what we generally get is positive reinforcement
    Gaya Ethaniel: What point?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I trailed off ...
    Fefonz Quan: good point
    arabella Ella: we may feel we are not sure ... therefore insecure ... of how we are doing things or whether we are actually 'moving'
    Fefonz Quan nods to ara
    Eliza Madrigal: I learn much about what I'm missing from others' sharing
    Gaya Ethaniel: I feel like that a lot arabella.
    arabella Ella nods
    Eliza Madrigal: see blindspots, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: not teaching... just sharing :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Talking here and having people who have common interests and kind to listen to me helps me to continue :)
    arabella Ella: yes Gaya I agree
    Mickorod Renard: nods to Gaya
    arabella Ella: but speaking for myself ... i think we wish to 'move' 'improve' ... difficult to find a suitable concept :)
    Pema Pera: we are not trying to reproduce a kind of special state -- we explore the nature of reality
    arabella Ella: yes Pema
    Pema Pera: and the notion of "playing as Being" suggest that reality is already perfect, in some deep sense that we are invited to explore
    Mickorod Renard: removing filters can cover a variety of issues
    Gaya Ethaniel: Wol - having a teacher at PaB is something you want to talk about? [Still waiting for your comment]
    Pema Pera: playing as Being is different from an improvement attitude
    Wester Kiranov: which is why a map wouldn't help as we would still be here - only more so
    Wester Kiranov: (was to pema)
    Fefonz Quan: but if we are not trying to get to some state, the injection of appereciation in seems a little artificial Pema
    Pema Pera: (yes Wester)
    Wol Euler: yes, that's right gaya
    Pema Pera: ah, that's the main point I was hoping to get to today, Fef
    Pema Pera: to let appreciation be a concrete way to get a more direct sense of Being
    arabella Ella: but ... altho there is no ideal state ... is this not a matter of moving along different levels of being, different levels f appreciation?
    Pema Pera: so appreciation is not an attempt to put on colored glasses, on the contrary
    Fefonz Quan: so in a way, appereciation might be a natural by-product of clear viewing
    Stim Morane: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: but would the clear viewing not come first?
    Fefonz Quan: but that gets me cofused, like putting the wagon before the horses
    Pema Pera: and as Stim said: trying to notice a lack of appreciation can give you a hint as to how to learn to see more clearly
    Fefonz Quan nods to Scath
    Pema Pera: we are not trying to pull you in any direction, Fef :-) so no horses in front!
    Pema Pera: wu-wei, not doing, stopping, dropping, those were the very first hints with which the 9-sec "technique" started!
    Pema Pera: not reaching a different state
    Fefonz Quan: (turtles, if any, for fef :))
    Mickorod Renard: at first,,I felt like I was creating something from my imagination,,,wheras,,I discovered that most advantagious was to just see what was there,,without the sunglasses
    Pema Pera: and yes, Scathach, clear viewing can come first too -- it all helps to reinforce each other
    Pema Pera: exactly, Mick, we try and miss and by trial and error, the attempts themselves teach us how to zoom in better
    Fefonz Quan: yes pema, that why at first aquantaince with APA seems opposite to PaB
    Pema Pera: how so?
    Tarmel Udimo: (sorry folks have to be in Play workshop - nice to see you all - and now that my cold is better I will be back at PaB more often:)
    Stim Morane: Bye Tarmel
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Tarmel
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Tarmel :)
    sophia Placebo: bye tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel
    Pema Pera: perhaps we should stop here
    Fefonz Quan: PaB is about dropping,and appereciation seems like putting in this 'state' of appereciating (though legitimate as a tool)
    Fefonz Quan: (to Pema)
    Pema Pera: ah, that's a good point to start with next time, Fef
    Pema Pera: no state at all, that's not the idea of appreciation, on the contrary
    Pila Mulligan: the intent seems to be to get a more direct sense of Being
    Pema Pera: thank you all for joining us here!
    Wol Euler: I should go too, goodnight all and thank you for a good discussion.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Wol :)
    genesis Zhangsun: night wol
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Wol :) Nite
    sophia Placebo: bye wol
    Scathach Rhiadra: good nuight Wol:)
    Stim Morane: Bye Wol
    arabella Ella: nite Wol
    Wol Euler: goodnight!
    Pema Pera: I suggest that we all try to share more with each other about our attempts at appreciation, in all sessions
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night
    Wester Kiranov: bye wol
    Mickorod Renard: nite Wol
    Eliza Madrigal felt appreciation ws very simple til she got here today :)
    Pema Pera: meanwhile, Stim and I will continue this particular theme session a week from now
    Fefonz Quan: night Wol ;)
    sophia Placebo: hehe eliza , me too
    Mickorod Renard: bye pema
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: bye pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Pema, Stim
    Mickorod Renard: nice seein u again
    Scathach Rhiadra: and I have no idea what it is now:)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: bye all :)
    Wester Kiranov: thanks to everybody
    Stim Morane: Bye everyone
    genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, namaste
    genesis Zhangsun: me too I am off
    arabella Ella: thanks Pema
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you and bye :)
    Fefonz Quan: bye Pema, Scath
    Mickorod Renard: bye everyone who is leaving
    Pema Pera: note that we also have the email group!
    Wester Kiranov: namaste
    Pema Pera: we can continue there as well
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Fefonz Quan: after midnight here too....
    Qt Core: the more i come here the more i think that being Vulcan would help ;-)
    arabella Ella: Vulcan?
    Mickorod Renard: a logical idea Qt
    Fefonz Quan: did you see what happened to vulcans int the new sartrek Qt?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: why, vulcan´s have stronger emottions then humans
    Qt Core: you know, ara, the all logical and meditative pointy eared aliens
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and they have to control them through training :)
    arabella Ella: oh yea
    Qt Core: yes, Yak, buy they got that in the end
    Qt Core: (but i was speaking more about their abilkity in analizing and honestly aknowledge them (but it is all fiction, so much easier for them ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: where r u now FEF?
    Mickorod Renard: east west south north?
    Fefonz Quan: home land :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
    Mickorod Renard: yeaaa
    Mickorod Renard: nite Yak
    arabella Ella: nite Yak
    Qt Core: good nigh Yakuzza
    arabella Ella: oh u gone home now Fef?
    arabella Ella: I am in germany today
    arabella Ella: was in belgium a few days ago
    Fefonz Quan: yes ara, just for a weel or so
    arabella Ella: oh i see ... hope the change is not too tough for you
    arabella Ella: the adapting again i mean
    Qt Core: have fun, bye all
    Fefonz Quan: not at all, great trip and having fun with friends a lot ara
    arabella Ella: great news
    arabella Ella: bye Qt
    arabella Ella: i must go now
    arabella Ella: bye Fef bye Mick
    Mickorod Renard: ok guys,,I am headin home
    Fefonz Quan: bye ara
    Mickorod Renard: bye Fef,,Ara
    Fefonz Quan: bye Mick
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