2009.06.01 13:00 - Appreciation, Theme Session 1

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
Stim Morane: Hi Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel: Did you see Pema's email? :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :)
Stim Morane: I say it just a few minutes ago.
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya, Stim:)
Stim Morane: Hi Scathach
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema and Wester :)
Stim Morane: Hi Wester, Pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester, Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Stim, Gaya, Wester, Scathach!
Wester Kiranov: hi gaya, stim, pema, scath
Pema Pera: Stim, I don't know whether you have read your email today yet
Stim Morane: I just saw it a few minutes ago
Pema Pera: is that okay with you, to talk about appreciation and Being today?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
Pema Pera: Hi Pila!
Wester Kiranov: hi pila
Stim Morane: Hi Pila
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
Pila Mulligan: Greetings everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel wonders if Stim is exercising right to remain silence heheheh
Pema Pera: (did I miss your answer, Stim?)
Pema Pera: hehe, Gaya!
Pila Mulligan: I'm sure I missed the question
Stim Morane: It's OK with me, although I'm not sure what can be added here ...
Pema Pera: well, we can always ask questions, Stim :)
Stim Morane: Yes, OK
Pema Pera: Perhaps I can start with appreciation.
Pema Pera: I wonder how you feel about my suggestion to focus the RL PaB workshop on appreciation
Stim Morane: I don't have any particular thoughts about it. The topic is one of my favorites, though.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
Pema Pera: One of my motivations was that appreciation is something that seems less likely to derail than, say, love or wisdom as a focus
Pema Pera: hi Sophia!
Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
Pila Mulligan: hi Sophia
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
Stim Morane: Hi Sophia
Pema Pera: even if appreciation is misunderstood, and taken in too small a way, as it is bound to be at first, that by itself is likely to then grow into a larger appreciation
sophia Placebo: hi gaya , hi pema , hi wester , hi pila , hi scath , hi stim :)
Pema Pera: whereas attempts at love or compassion directly can get one stuck into a kind of smothering love, for example
Pema Pera: of a compassion that is too heavy and self centered
Wester Kiranov: it's an ambiguous word though
Stim Morane: I think the risks are comparable.
Pila Mulligan: what is the intent?
Stim Morane: I personally teach a lot more about "apprectiation" but that doesn't mean it's free of all the usual problems.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey All :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz:)
Pema Pera: Hi Fef!
Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz
Wester Kiranov: hi fef
Pema Pera: in what way ambiguous Wester?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
Pema Pera: hi Wol!
Stim Morane: hi Wol
Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
sophia Placebo: hello fef hello wol :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol
Fefonz Quan: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello all, sorry I'm late
Wester Kiranov: it can mean to see, see clearly, or to value
Wester Kiranov: i was wondering what dutch word i would use
Pema Pera: waardering
Pema Pera: but my suggestion would be not to try to pin it down, but rather work with it in an open way, seeing where it leads too
Pema Pera: Stim, can you say more about how it could go wrong?
Pema Pera: what pitfalls you see?
Stim Morane: it has all the same unwanted edges that the other terms and emphases do.
sophia Placebo: hello mick
Pema Pera: Hi Mick!
Stim Morane: But again, I admit I personally focus on it in my own teaching.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: hey,,who's sitting in my seat?
Pema Pera: how would you answer Wester
Stim Morane: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya everyone
Pema Pera: concerning how you see appreciation, Stim?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Pema Pera: [13:11] Wester Kiranov: it can mean to see, see clearly, or to value
Wester Kiranov: hi mickey - which seat is "yours"?
Mickorod Renard: grin
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mickorod Renard: I guess so much we see we do not value?
Stim Morane: Yes, Mick. That's a good starting point.
Pema Pera: Stim, how would you respond to Wester's question?
Mickorod Renard: It comes back to this,,being anethetised frrom the passing of life..and our everyday expectation
Stim Morane: I don't really understand the question, sorry.
Wester Kiranov: ... or you value "things" instead of appearances
Wester Kiranov: (to mick)
Mickorod Renard: yes..
Fefonz Quan: (should we value only appearances?)
Fefonz Quan: Hi Ara
Stim Morane: Hi arabella
Pila Mulligan: an aside: ... will your aim be to perpetuate the SL sense of PaB in a RL workshop?
sophia Placebo: hi ara
Pila Mulligan: hi Arabellla
arabella Ella: hiya everyone!
Pema Pera: Hi Arabella
Mickorod Renard: hi Ara
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara, Eliza
Stim Morane: Hi Eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Last time I talk about appreciation here, Fefonz and Scath's interpretation were very helpful.
Wester Kiranov: we can valuea apperances as appearances or Being as Being. What else would there be?
arabella Ella: Hiya Pema good to see you here too :)
Wol Euler: hello eliza, ara
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella and Eliza :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Eliza
Pema Pera: (it seems we have many multiple threads going on, I'm completely lost now)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim, Scath, Everyone :))
sophia Placebo: hi eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Just see for what it is ... but as Mick said perhaps that comes after learning to truly value as well?
Wester Kiranov: and of course appearances as a p[resentation by Being
Pila Mulligan: wasn't the question about having the focus of the RL PaB workshop on appreciation?
Pila Mulligan: hi QT
Stim Morane: QT
sophia Placebo: hi Qt
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
Pema Pera: hi Qt!
Qt Core: hi all
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Qt
Mickorod Renard: hi Qt
Pila Mulligan: SL PaB sessions sometimes have a kind of party like feeling
sophia Placebo: :)
Pila Mulligan: RL meetings of course have a stronger personal presence
Pema Pera: well, Wester asked a question 15 minutes ago; I asked Stim what his answer would be, but since then we haven't heard yet from Stim and Wester -- with many other texts in between
Mickorod Renard: is there more formal etiquet in RL meets?
Pila Mulligan: what was Wester's question?
Stim Morane: Sorry, I'm getting so much lag I can't respond. I'll have to set up a different tcomputer and return.
Wester Kiranov: cu later then stim
Wol Euler nods.
Pila Mulligan: oh, I see it now: [13:14] Wester Kiranov: hi mickey - which seat is "yours"?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Wester Kiranov: :P
Mickorod Renard: sorry,,was it my fault
Pila Mulligan: more seriously, I do not see the question Wester posed for real
Pila Mulligan: can someone please tell me?
Wester Kiranov: I think Pema was referring to how to interpret "appreciate"
Wester Kiranov: as seeing or as valuing
Gaya Ethaniel: [13:11] Wester Kiranov: it can mean to see, see clearly, or to value
Wester Kiranov: or both or neither
Pila Mulligan: [13:21] Wester Kiranov: we can valuea apperances as appearances or Being as Being. What else would there be?
Pila Mulligan: ?
Fefonz Quan: value sounds very comparatively
Wol Euler: wb stim
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Stim :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Stim
Wester Kiranov: wb stim
Pema Pera: My answer to Wester was: [13:12] Pema Pera: but my suggestion would be not to try to pin it down, but rather work with it in an open way, seeing where it leads too
Gaya Ethaniel: I will make a notecard for Stim
Wester Kiranov: the :21 saying was an answer to fef at :20
Stim Morane: thanks
Stim Morane: thanks, Gaya
Wol Euler: hello tarmel
sophia Placebo: hi tarmel
Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Pema Pera: and then I asked Stim what he considers the answer to Wester's question, which I thought was a very interesting question, of what appreciation means: seeing, valuing, . . .?
Pema Pera: perhaps we can just start with that last question from scratch
Stim Morane: the word basically means "seeing the value of"
Tarmel Udimo: (Hi all)
Pema Pera: (hi Tarmel)
Stim Morane: This emphasis is not ideal for our purposes
Fefonz Quan: (hey Tarmel)
Pema Pera: can you say more Stim?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tarmel :)
Stim Morane: I like Mick's idea, of seeing that we don't appreciate ...
Stim Morane: This is where I would start.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ...
Pema Pera: how would you work with that then?
Stim Morane: But I leave it to PaB'ers to determine the rest.
Pema Pera: you are a PaBer too, Stim :-)
Stim Morane: My own approaches wouldn't be suitable for this context, since they involve a lot of more detailed, technical practice
Stim Morane: the main thing is to start with something definite, then refine ...
Pema Pera: Hi Yak!
sophia Placebo: hi yak
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Stim Morane: Hi Yakuzza
arabella Ella: Hiy Yak
Pema Pera: yes, that makes sense. So shall we discuss the definite part?
Fefonz Quan: hi Yaku
Wester Kiranov: hi yaku
Pema Pera: do you suggest to try to appreciate, and see where you fail -- or just watch and try to notice a lack of appreciation, or . . . ?
Stim Morane: Both are good points for a beginning.
Stim Morane: But life offers many opportunities ...
Fefonz Quan: in a way appereciation seems like an emotional flavor, a little like 'coloring' the appearances with pale pink
Stim Morane: I'm still getting very long lag times ... well over a minute.
Wol Euler: wow.
Stim Morane: So I'm afraid I can't communicate anything under these circumstances. Odd problem ...
Gaya Ethaniel: ok Stim thanks for being here :)
arabella Ella: ehrm ... pink colouring ... just been for a walk and seen immensely beautiful pink coloured clouds
Wester Kiranov: yeah, we appreciate your appearance stim
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Tarmel Udimo: :)
Wol Euler grins
sophia Placebo: :)
Stim Morane: You're just entranced by my wonderful avatar, not the real "me"
arabella Ella: but there is a lot in life which we just walk past without stopping to appreciate or ...
Fefonz Quan: (in one of Asimovs short stories, he solves the problem of delayes between distant planets, by keepping both sides talking all the time)
Gaya Ethaniel: :))
arabella Ella: appearances of avatars u mean Stim :)
Stim Morane: Yes
Stim Morane: oh, that actually posted on time.
arabella Ella nods
Pila Mulligan: I'd suggest that part of the focus of RL PaB workshops be on yoga, or similar physical exercises
arabella Ella: breathing too Pila
Pila Mulligan: such practices may help the dicsussion
arabella Ella: and help people to get over any initial concerns they may have too
Pila Mulligan: that physical presence dimension, you know :)
Pema Pera: yes, there are many ways that we could introduce techniques from many different traditions
Pila Mulligan: or even just plain (unaffiliated) breathing, as arabella suggested (and as Stim has done in part with some of the Kira workshops)
Wol Euler: hello gen
sophia Placebo: hello genesis :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello gen :)
Wester Kiranov: hi gen
Stim Morane: Hi gen
arabella Ella: hiya gen
Pila Mulligan: hi gen
Mickorod Renard: hi gen
Pema Pera: hi there Genesis
Stim Morane: I have always found that the issue of "appreciation" is best unpacked in person-specific ways, so I don't find it easy to recommend generic approaches. But I agree with Pila.
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hi everyone!
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Gen:)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
Fefonz Quan: Hi Gen
Gaya Ethaniel: Can I ask a question even if it's not directly related to the PaB retreat?
Pema Pera: of course
Gaya Ethaniel: Stim, your comments about person-specific way, do you mean each of us needs to find a suitable individual appraoch to a certain level?
Gaya Ethaniel: On practical terms I mean.
Stim Morane: Gaya, "appreciation" tends to open up in different ways for different people.
Stim Morane: Some people are very physical, or intuitive, or art-oriented, or affected by interpersonal work, etc.
Stim Morane: My own teaching is very classical, and emphasizes a lot of detailed contemplative practices.
Stim Morane: But still there is a need to "personalize" the approach.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok thank you :)
Stim Morane: I expect the same will be true here.
Wol Euler nods.
Stim Morane: Since this topic has been much-discussed in PaB already, perhaps that step has been addressed ...
Pema Pera: My guess is that we don't try to think to much at the beginning, and that when we seriously do the practice, we will notice what directions it wants to go for us
Pema Pera: we have a tendency to always want to know at the beginning where an exploration will lead us
Pema Pera: we want a map, a plan
Pema Pera: but instead we can just ask the practice itself what it wants
Pema Pera: we can try to step aside, so to speak, and let it unfold
Pema Pera: and then report, so that we can help each other with advice
arabella Ella: if i may ask
arabella Ella: when we begin to explore ... appreciation
arabella Ella: and it begins to move in different ways
arabella Ella: as Stim said ... intuitive for some, physical for others, etc
arabella Ella: would it be possible to get more feedback on the direction of the exploration
arabella Ella: some sort of mirroring or reflection
arabella Ella: mainly as some of us ... or speaking for myself as a novice
arabella Ella: sometimes feel i am not sure whether i am doing the right thing or not
Pema Pera: yes, I'm sure; so far we have really not spoken that much about our own experiences with the practice of appreciation -- I suggest that from now on we make a point in really doing so regularly
arabella Ella: and a sense of insecurity may hold one back from further exploration
Eliza Madrigal: Some of us can use our sessions this way...setting aside time to discuss the topic
Pema Pera: and we can all give feedback
Pema Pera: "the wisdom of the crowd"
Pema Pera: if nothing else, we can see the great variety of appreciation approaches
arabella Ella: personally i think feedback could be useful but not just simply positive reinforcement ... more of a sense of direction
Wester Kiranov: I like ara's point. what do we do with fear, insecurity, etc.
arabella Ella: even if personal direction
Pema Pera: and that will stimulate us to explore in other directions than we might have thought about at first
Mickorod Renard: you are welcome to use the tuesday 1pm slot for that Ara
arabella Ella: ty
Gaya Ethaniel: Think direction would need to come from oneself ...
Pema Pera: in fact, I suggest we use all slots for that, as much as we want
Gaya Ethaniel: At least at PaB, we don't have a teacher if I understand correctly ... we are students and we are our teachers here I though.
Pema Pera: Arabella, I don't think we are going to tell you how to appreciate -- but if you tell us how you are exploring appreciation, all of us can be mirrors, give suggestions, compare notes with their own attempts
Gaya Ethaniel: thought.
Pema Pera: indeed, Gaya
Wol Euler: well ...
Pema Pera: does that sound doable, Arabella?
arabella Ella nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Though I must admit it's very tempting to email Stim and ask him if I'm doing the WoK homework correct or not >.<
Eliza Madrigal: :)
sophia Placebo: where insicurity comes from arabella? if i may ask
Pema Pera: hahaha
Stim Morane: I wouldn't have an aswer, Gaya ...
Stim Morane: *answer
Gaya Ethaniel nods. I know Stim :)
Wol Euler: gaya, that is a point that concerns me, and (if the group is willing) I would like to discuss that at anohter session
arabella Ella: well sophia if each of us is conducting our own explorations ...
arabella Ella: and even if we discuss them here or elsewhere what we generally get is positive reinforcement
Gaya Ethaniel: What point?
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I trailed off ...
Fefonz Quan: good point
arabella Ella: we may feel we are not sure ... therefore insecure ... of how we are doing things or whether we are actually 'moving'
Fefonz Quan nods to ara
Eliza Madrigal: I learn much about what I'm missing from others' sharing
Gaya Ethaniel: I feel like that a lot arabella.
arabella Ella nods
Eliza Madrigal: see blindspots, etc
Eliza Madrigal: not teaching... just sharing :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Talking here and having people who have common interests and kind to listen to me helps me to continue :)
arabella Ella: yes Gaya I agree
Mickorod Renard: nods to Gaya
arabella Ella: but speaking for myself ... i think we wish to 'move' 'improve' ... difficult to find a suitable concept :)
Pema Pera: we are not trying to reproduce a kind of special state -- we explore the nature of reality
arabella Ella: yes Pema
Pema Pera: and the notion of "playing as Being" suggest that reality is already perfect, in some deep sense that we are invited to explore
Mickorod Renard: removing filters can cover a variety of issues
Gaya Ethaniel: Wol - having a teacher at PaB is something you want to talk about? [Still waiting for your comment]
Pema Pera: playing as Being is different from an improvement attitude
Wester Kiranov: which is why a map wouldn't help as we would still be here - only more so
Wester Kiranov: (was to pema)
Fefonz Quan: but if we are not trying to get to some state, the injection of appereciation in seems a little artificial Pema
Pema Pera: (yes Wester)
Wol Euler: yes, that's right gaya
Pema Pera: ah, that's the main point I was hoping to get to today, Fef
Pema Pera: to let appreciation be a concrete way to get a more direct sense of Being
arabella Ella: but ... altho there is no ideal state ... is this not a matter of moving along different levels of being, different levels f appreciation?
Pema Pera: so appreciation is not an attempt to put on colored glasses, on the contrary
Fefonz Quan: so in a way, appereciation might be a natural by-product of clear viewing
Stim Morane: yes
Scathach Rhiadra: but would the clear viewing not come first?
Fefonz Quan: but that gets me cofused, like putting the wagon before the horses
Pema Pera: and as Stim said: trying to notice a lack of appreciation can give you a hint as to how to learn to see more clearly
Fefonz Quan nods to Scath
Pema Pera: we are not trying to pull you in any direction, Fef :-) so no horses in front!
Pema Pera: wu-wei, not doing, stopping, dropping, those were the very first hints with which the 9-sec "technique" started!
Pema Pera: not reaching a different state
Fefonz Quan: (turtles, if any, for fef :))
Mickorod Renard: at first,,I felt like I was creating something from my imagination,,,wheras,,I discovered that most advantagious was to just see what was there,,without the sunglasses
Pema Pera: and yes, Scathach, clear viewing can come first too -- it all helps to reinforce each other
Pema Pera: exactly, Mick, we try and miss and by trial and error, the attempts themselves teach us how to zoom in better
Fefonz Quan: yes pema, that why at first aquantaince with APA seems opposite to PaB
Pema Pera: how so?
Tarmel Udimo: (sorry folks have to be in Play workshop - nice to see you all - and now that my cold is better I will be back at PaB more often:)
Stim Morane: Bye Tarmel
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Tarmel
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Tarmel :)
sophia Placebo: bye tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel
Pema Pera: perhaps we should stop here
Fefonz Quan: PaB is about dropping,and appereciation seems like putting in this 'state' of appereciating (though legitimate as a tool)
Fefonz Quan: (to Pema)
Pema Pera: ah, that's a good point to start with next time, Fef
Pema Pera: no state at all, that's not the idea of appreciation, on the contrary
Pila Mulligan: the intent seems to be to get a more direct sense of Being
Pema Pera: thank you all for joining us here!
Wol Euler: I should go too, goodnight all and thank you for a good discussion.
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Wol :)
genesis Zhangsun: night wol
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Wol :) Nite
sophia Placebo: bye wol
Scathach Rhiadra: good nuight Wol:)
Stim Morane: Bye Wol
arabella Ella: nite Wol
Wol Euler: goodnight!
Pema Pera: I suggest that we all try to share more with each other about our attempts at appreciation, in all sessions
Yakuzza Lethecus: night
Wester Kiranov: bye wol
Mickorod Renard: nite Wol
Eliza Madrigal felt appreciation ws very simple til she got here today :)
Pema Pera: meanwhile, Stim and I will continue this particular theme session a week from now
Fefonz Quan: night Wol ;)
sophia Placebo: hehe eliza , me too
Mickorod Renard: bye pema
Eliza Madrigal: :)
sophia Placebo: bye pema
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Pema, Stim
Mickorod Renard: nice seein u again
Scathach Rhiadra: and I have no idea what it is now:)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
sophia Placebo: bye all :)
Wester Kiranov: thanks to everybody
Stim Morane: Bye everyone
genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, namaste
genesis Zhangsun: me too I am off
arabella Ella: thanks Pema
Pila Mulligan: bye
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you and bye :)
Fefonz Quan: bye Pema, Scath
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone who is leaving
Pema Pera: note that we also have the email group!
Wester Kiranov: namaste
Pema Pera: we can continue there as well
Pema Pera: bfn
Fefonz Quan: after midnight here too....
Qt Core: the more i come here the more i think that being Vulcan would help ;-)
arabella Ella: Vulcan?
Mickorod Renard: a logical idea Qt
Fefonz Quan: did you see what happened to vulcans int the new sartrek Qt?
Yakuzza Lethecus: why, vulcan´s have stronger emottions then humans
Qt Core: you know, ara, the all logical and meditative pointy eared aliens
Yakuzza Lethecus: and they have to control them through training :)
arabella Ella: oh yea
Qt Core: yes, Yak, buy they got that in the end
Qt Core: (but i was speaking more about their abilkity in analizing and honestly aknowledge them (but it is all fiction, so much easier for them ;-)
Mickorod Renard: where r u now FEF?
Mickorod Renard: east west south north?
Fefonz Quan: home land :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
Mickorod Renard: yeaaa
Mickorod Renard: nite Yak
arabella Ella: nite Yak
Qt Core: good nigh Yakuzza
arabella Ella: oh u gone home now Fef?
arabella Ella: I am in germany today
arabella Ella: was in belgium a few days ago
Fefonz Quan: yes ara, just for a weel or so
arabella Ella: oh i see ... hope the change is not too tough for you
arabella Ella: the adapting again i mean
Qt Core: have fun, bye all
Fefonz Quan: not at all, great trip and having fun with friends a lot ara
arabella Ella: great news
arabella Ella: bye Qt
arabella Ella: i must go now
arabella Ella: bye Fef bye Mick
Mickorod Renard: ok guys,,I am headin home
Fefonz Quan: bye ara
Mickorod Renard: bye Fef,,Ara
Fefonz Quan: bye Mick