2009.06.02 13:00 - myself as an appearance

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.


    sophia Placebo: hello lia
    Lia Rikugun: hello sophia
    Lia Rikugun: you are going to have a theme session on saturday right?
    sophia Placebo: yes :)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe yes, but maybe we shouldnt talk about this yet
    sophia Placebo: sl is funny today
    Lia Rikugun: really?
    Lia Rikugun: why?
    sophia Placebo: i dont know , wouldnt let me sit easly
    Lia Rikugun: :) hehe this happens sometimes
    Lia Rikugun: how long have you been doing PaB?
    Lia Rikugun: did we meet before in SL?
    sophia Placebo: not so long
    sophia Placebo: maybe who knows :)
    Lia Rikugun: :) well it is very nice to meet you
    Lia Rikugun: so how have you come to PaB?
    sophia Placebo: hehe nice to meet you too lia
    Lia Rikugun: helo Wol
    sophia Placebo: through kira workshops
    sophia Placebo: hello wol
    Wol Euler: hello sophia, lia

    Daniel Dennet's book - "The Mind's I" and trying to see the self as an appearance

    Lia Rikugun: currently i am reading a book from daniel dennet
    Lia Rikugun: in german its "einsicht ins ich"
    Lia Rikugun: looking for the english title...
    sophia Placebo: intersting book so far ?
    Lia Rikugun: about the "I"
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    Lia Rikugun: i started reading this because i wanted to see myself as appearance
    Lia Rikugun: which i thought was very difficult
    Wol Euler nods
    Lia Rikugun: well still think so ;)
    Lia Rikugun: hello travieso
    sophia Placebo: brb
    Wol Euler: hello travieso
    Wol Euler smiles across at Trav. We don't bite...
    Travieso Sella: that's what htey all say
    sophia Placebo: back , hello trav
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Travieso Sella: hey
    Wol Euler: :)
    sophia Placebo: where you find it difficult to see yourself as appearnce lia?
    Lia Rikugun: because it is me who sees appearances
    Lia Rikugun: what can be seen when detached from me
    Lia Rikugun: .. in this way
    Lia Rikugun: (wow i closed my eyes and went into a djungel :))
    Lia Rikugun: (because of the sounds)
    sophia Placebo: hmm, one cant tell if he is short or tall if he lived alone , but can see - the diffrence and resemblance- if he copare and relate to others lenghths
    Lia Rikugun: can you explain a little more sophia please
    sophia Placebo: well i agree with you that i cant too see myself as appearnace from a point of veiw of something not an appearnce
    Lia Rikugun: so in which way detach from the self?
    Lia Rikugun: or see it as appearance
    sophia Placebo: comparing i guess
    Lia Rikugun: compare myself to others?
    sophia Placebo: but without detachment me thinks
    sophia Placebo: to other appearances
    Lia Rikugun: ok

    mickorod joins us

    sophia Placebo: hello mick
    Wol Euler: hell mick, ara
    sophia Placebo: hello ara
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya
    Lia Rikugun: hello ara hello fael
    Wol Euler: and hello fael
    Lia Rikugun: hello mick
    sophia Placebo: hello fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Travieso, Lia, Sophia, ara, Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: howz it all going?
    Lia Rikugun: very good and with you mick?
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Trav..are you new?
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am fine ty
    Travieso Sella: hi
    Travieso Sella: nope
    Travieso Sella: I gtg though
    Travieso Sella: I'll cy u guys later
    Mickorod Renard: ok..grin..
    sophia Placebo: bye trav
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,c u
    Lia Rikugun: byebye
    Fael Illyar: See you Travieso :)
    Wol Euler: bye travieso
    arabella Ella: it's quiet here tonite
    arabella Ella: anyone got anything to discuss?
    Mickorod Renard: some of you ladies get through some changes of clothes in a week
    Wol Euler grins
    sophia Placebo: lia asked about how to see self as appearnce
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Well, need to dress in something and ... Well, I'm not always feeling like wearing the same ones.'
    arabella Ella smiles
    Mickorod Renard: grin

    appreciate yourself, appreciate everything around you

    Mickorod Renard: the problem with apperance is in what context
    Fael Illyar: see self as appearance? might be more helpful if you could detail what's in the way.
    Lia Rikugun: as i try to see everything as appearances or appreciate the presneence of appearances i tried to see myself as appearance as well
    Lia Rikugun: and still think it is difficult
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: i think so too Lia
    arabella Ella: it is not easy
    Lia Rikugun: in the way is that I myself can appreaciate the presence of appearances
    Lia Rikugun: but how can i detach from myself and still appreciate the presence of appearances...
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: or see appreanaces and myself as appearances
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I sometimes think that we all have diferent idea's or approaches to these thiings
    Lia Rikugun: so what is your approach
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I dont realy go in that direction much,,I am having to dig deep in my thoughts
    Lia Rikugun: in what direction do you go mick?
    Lia Rikugun: what is important for you?
    Fael Illyar: to appreciate yourself... perhaps the first thing that's needed is to accept yourself as you are.
    Fael Illyar: as in, no feelings of "this or that must be changed right now"
    Mickorod Renard: prestently I am apreciating appearance of other things around me..or the world in general
    Lia Rikugun: i can understand that
    Mickorod Renard: Fael is in the mind I was thinking
    Lia Rikugun: so you think this is more important the appreciation
    Lia Rikugun: instead of the appearance
    Mickorod Renard: I think we accept ourselves as what we have learnt to become
    Mickorod Renard: and maybe it is the undressing of that, which is important
    Lia Rikugun: I understand
    arabella Ella: if i may ask ... is this the same as what we were discussing yesterday ... appreciating being?
    Mickorod Renard: to take time out to examine ourselves, our motives etc
    Fael Illyar: to appreciate yourself... take a look at what this yourself is and accept that right now it is that which you see.
    Lia Rikugun: i dont think this is what I wanted to say
    Mickorod Renard: try again Lia
    Lia Rikugun: :) actually i was more refering to the appearance part
    Lia Rikugun: i can appreaciate myself
    Mickorod Renard: I am not suer it reflects visual appearance so much
    Lia Rikugun: but i wanted to try to see if this "me" if I can see it as an appearance only
    Fael Illyar: the "appearance" here definitel has nothing to do with visual appearance
    Lia Rikugun: exactly
    Fael Illyar: or well, it includes that too
    Fael Illyar: but much more than just that

    see yourself visually as you see others -> we are not so different

    Mickorod Renard: I have tried to see myself visually as I do others
    Lia Rikugun: and?
    Mickorod Renard: and it brought to mind that i am like others,,flesh and blood,,with a life story, and responsibilities....it put me back into context
    Mickorod Renard: I had become too insular
    Lia Rikugun: you are like others but you are not
    Lia Rikugun: for you you are not
    arabella Ella: do you mean 'like the others' in the sense of no superiority Mickorod?
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,but one mustnt forget that others are also individuals too, with thier emotions and idea;s
    Lia Rikugun: of course
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I meant that I am an individual in a collective
    Mickorod Renard: and should not isolate myself, by thinking perhaps that I am superior

    evberybody has different ways and approaches of 'seeing'

    arabella Ella: one important related thing for me from yesterday was that Stim said we all have different ways of 'seeing' ... some visual, some physical, some tactile, some intuitive, etc
    Mickorod Renard: I think this opens up avenues of exploration
    arabella Ella: and that is one reason why we are not given too much specific direction
    arabella Ella: but we are asked to find our own direction
    Mickorod Renard: I have explored many aspects of myself,,outside play as being and recently within
    Lia Rikugun: so what have you learned mick?
    Mickorod Renard: its a very evocative subject
    Mickorod Renard: by learning about myself i am learning about others too
    Lia Rikugun: :) you start to understand a little bit more
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Lia Rikugun: this is my experience as well
    Mickorod Renard: we all comefrom diferent walks of life,,and in some way feel we are diferent because,,,,..but here we discover that we harbour similar idea's
    Mickorod Renard: I like to think I have a great social concience,,but deep inside I want to give myself a better standard of living
    Lia Rikugun: yes i made the experience that by opeing up and having all kind of discussion with other people I could realize how people have same ideas
    Lia Rikugun: even though i didnt expect that
    Mickorod Renard: a conflict
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,sometimes its the deep routed thoughts about ourselves that can hold us back
    Mickorod Renard: stop us from enjoying what is
    Lia Rikugun: the idea fo yourself exactly
    Lia Rikugun: not yourself "ourselves" sorry ;)
    Mickorod Renard: yes, both

    new revelations like seeing the future through spiritual practice ;) - the clear moments

    Mickorod Renard: I think I began to think that through spiritual practice there would be some revelation
    sophia Placebo: still thinking of detaching from self to appreciate the presence of self - sounds tempty
    Mickorod Renard: like seeing into the future, or,,x ray vision,,or silly things like that
    Lia Rikugun: so? anything of that mick?
    Mickorod Renard: noooo...but what you can see,,i believe,,,is what is just there
    Lia Rikugun: I believe i got a better feeling for people somehow
    Lia Rikugun: through being more aware
    Mickorod Renard: if we took time to see,,and reflect
    Lia Rikugun: so how do you just see and reflect?
    Lia Rikugun: you mean stop thinking so much?
    Fael Illyar: more like not creating new thoughts and if any thoughts come up, just let them be.
    Mickorod Renard: I think i think more,,,but in the sense i think you mean,,yes, get rid of the distracting noise of regular thoughts
    Lia Rikugun: ok still trying on that :)
    Lia Rikugun: i get some clear moments but not very often
    Mickorod Renard: same here
    Fael Illyar: once you realize how, it's easy. Until then it feels hard.
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Mickorod Renard: build up on the succesful moments
    Mickorod Renard: dont forget them,,but instead let them create an identity you can call back
    Fael Illyar: Sometimes, I've managed to return to the clarity of those moments by recalling them. Although, when I recall them with the intent to return, it often doesn't work that well.
    Fael Illyar: Works the best when the moment comes to mind because I'm talking to someone else and want to talk o that.
    sophia Placebo: nods
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I think there are many ways,,but for most I think that is why they set aside meditation times
    Mickorod Renard: which I dont
    Mickorod Renard: I remember when we first discused some of this,,people came up with idea's..like standin on hills with the wind blowing
    Lia Rikugun: hello kenji
    Mickorod Renard: othersstanding on a beach watchin seaguls fly

    kenji is joining us and at this moment I had to leave SL and will not try to comment on the following

    kenji Pookes: Hi everyone
    sophia Placebo: hi kenji
    Lia Rikugun: have you been here before kenji?
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ken
    Wol Euler: hello kenji
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,Ken is a regular
    Fael Illyar is finding herself falling asleep at the keyboard...
    Lia Rikugun: ok wonderful
    Fael Illyar: I'd better head to bed :)
    Fael Illyar: Good night everyone :)
    Lia Rikugun: yes actually me to: time for bed
    Mickorod Renard: nite Fael
    Lia Rikugun: good night fael
    sophia Placebo: goodnight fael happy dreams
    Wol Euler: bye fael, take care
    kenji Pookes: It was great chatting with you Fael.
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Fael Illyar: Hi and bye Kenji :)
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Mickorod Renard: you have scared her of Ken
    Lia Rikugun: mick i will post the log tomorrow ok?
    Mickorod Renard: ok cool,,no rush
    kenji Pookes: I'm sure I did.
    Lia Rikugun: good bye everyone
    Lia Rikugun: was nice to talk to you!
    Mickorod Renard: bye Lia
    sophia Placebo: bye lia
    Fael Illyar: I really am falling asleep here though...
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: do you still go down to the beach Ara?
    sophia Placebo: i need to go to bed too
    Mickorod Renard: nite Sophia
    sophia Placebo: see you all soon
    kenji Pookes: Wow. I'm beginning to feel quite self-conscious.
    Wol Euler: bye sophia, ttake care
    kenji Pookes: Bye
    arabella Ella is nodding off too ... dreaming of the beach
    Wol Euler: bad timing, Ken, you arrived just after the hour
    arabella Ella: )while in wet Potsdam at the moment)
    kenji Pookes: Oh well. Had a busy time napping, actually.
    Mickorod Renard: do you live near a beach Ken?
    kenji Pookes: No, I live in Austin, Texas. No beaches around here. Right in the middle of the state.
    Mickorod Renard: oh yea,,I remem
    kenji Pookes: I grew up near a beach, though.
    Mickorod Renard: so do you find anywhere near you that is tranquil etc?
    Mickorod Renard: like watchin the sand blow?
    kenji Pookes: Hmm. I really don't have time to watch sand blow. I have two kids.
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    kenji Pookes: But I tend to make my own tranquility. I've really never needed tranquil places.
    Mickorod Renard: I love the sky
    Mickorod Renard: I was looking at clouds today
    Mickorod Renard: fantastic colours and shapes
    Mickorod Renard: all diferent hights and consistancies
    arabella Ella: nite everyone gotta go now
    arabella Ella: lovely seeing u here!
    kenji Pookes: Good night
    Mickorod Renard: nite ara,,I have to leave too
    Wol Euler: bye ara, take care
    Wol Euler: and bye mick, goodnight
    Mickorod Renard: hope you dont mind,,but I have an appointment
    kenji Pookes: Good night Mick. Enjoy the sky.
    Mickorod Renard: cheers
    kenji Pookes: Well, it's just us.
    Wol Euler: and I am stuck in two IMs at the same time, sorry :)
    kenji Pookes: I hate when that happens.
    Wol Euler: a friend has decided to go to university in his mid _thirties
    Wol Euler: didn't even finish high school
    Wol Euler: I am teaching him how to write a research paper
    kenji Pookes: I see. That's quite a challenge.
    kenji Pookes: I'll let you go and do that. Important to help out your friend. Talk to you later.
    Wol Euler: sorry :)
    Wol Euler: bye for now, kenji
    kenji Pookes: Cheers.
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