2009.06.08 13:00 - Appreciating Culture and Being.

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.


    Gaya Ethaniel: /afk
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim:)
    Stim Morane: Hi Scathach and Gaya
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath andn Stim :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pema said he can't make this session Stim.
    Stim Morane: Yes, I noticed
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: So we can perhaps indulge ourselves in your talk on appreciation?
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Stim Morane: Yes. Are there any aspects of the emphasis he recommended that you'd like to pursue?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I'm being naught ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: naughty*
    Stim Morane: I was getting excited at the notion that you had found a way to be naught.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila,Tarmel, Fefonz and Wester :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Wester, Pila
    Stim Morane: Tarmel
    Pila Mulligan: greetings everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Scath, Stim, Gaya, Pila, Tarmel, Wester
    Gaya Ethaniel guaffaws.
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi everyone:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz, Pila, Wester, Tarmel
    Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yep call me guru heheheh
    Stim Morane: Yes, I'll have to start doing that, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stim please .. . *big blush*
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: In case some missed it - [13:01] Stim Morane: Yes. Are there any aspects of the emphasis he recommended that you'd like to pursue? (he = Pema)
    Gaya Ethaniel: [on appreciation]
    Tarmel Udimo: Ty Gaya
    Fefonz Quan: so are you pursuing Gaya?
    Wester Kiranov: hi artemisia
    Artemisia Svoboda: hi Wester
    Artemisia Svoboda: hi everyone
    Stim Morane: Hi artemisia
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello artemisia
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Artemisia
    Tarmel Udimo: HI
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I've been doing it ... but along the line of being thanksful and observe how much more I could appreciate [as Mick said]
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Artemisia :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: hello Gaya
    Tarmel Udimo: I've been thinking about the meaning of the word alot:)
    Tarmel Udimo: appreciation
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'd say the way I do seem a bit different from Pema or others have been doing.
    Tarmel Udimo: its a rather nice word
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not surethough ...
    Tarmel Udimo: can you say more Gaya
    Fefonz Quan: yes Gaya we would appereciate it :)
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh I typed ... they are gone >.<
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb
    Fefonz Quan: we moved from appearance to disappearance
    Wester Kiranov: :P
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
    Pila Mulligan: hi Nymf
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Nymf
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello nymf
    Artemisia Svoboda: Hi Nymf
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Nymf
    Stim Morane: Hi Nymf
    Fefonz Quan: i comprehend appereciation as 'accept, approve, rejoice' in a way, with different weights to each
    Fefonz Quan: wb gaya
    Scathach Rhiadra: wb Gaya:)
    Tarmel Udimo: wb
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty :) SL is being very unstable for me today.
    Nymf Hathaway: and Adams :)
    Fefonz Quan: Yes, RL can give that feeling too Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: Adams
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Adams
    Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Nymf and Adams :)
    Tarmel Udimo: Yes its an interesting word it feels like it has just the right ingredients - neither passive neither active but just being there and seeing clearly:)
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Adams
    Qt Core: hi all
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Qt :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi QT
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Qt
    Adams Rubble: Hello QT
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi
    Fefonz Quan: BTW - from teh free online dictionary for appreciate: 2. To be fully aware of or sensitive to; realize: I appreciate your problems.
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Tarmel Udimo: yes its a lovely word:)
    Fefonz Quan: the rabbit seems to use a major part of its nine lives today...
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: /throws a cushion at fefonz:)
    Gaya Ethaniel guffaws.
    Fefonz Quan: Stim, do you treat appreciation according to that meaning too? i was surprised to find it
    Stim Morane: Well, it means so many things ...
    Pila Mulligan: hi Kenji
    kenji Pookes: Universal "hello"
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Kenji :)
    Stim Morane: hi Kenji
    Adams Rubble: Hello kenji
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Kenji
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Kenji
    Fefonz Quan: individual "hello"-> kenji
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Kenji :)
    Tarmel Udimo: it feels like a word that doesn't get in the way of what one is seeing:)
    Tarmel Udimo: however it is positive
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Stim Morane: well, that depends on the particular meaning it's given
    Pila Mulligan: I wonder if the PaB phrase could be rendered into a traditional mantra, for example 'Being' could be Sat
    Tarmel Udimo: what meaning would you give it Stim?
    Stim Morane: If appreciate is taken to mean “see the value of”, that could be either a positive or tangential thing, speaking very generally. But it often probably has little to do with PaB. It would apply, for instance, to a gem cutter evaluating a rough gem stone to determine its market price.
    Tarmel Udimo: I don't know Fefonz:)
    Stim Morane: The word also means “to increase” the value of something, or to grow in value. It also means to “prize” something, to hold it dear, to like it especially.
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Stim Morane: And if it does mean to like or enjoy something, that could be very healthy, again speaking generally. But it still doesn’t particularly bear on the basic issue of seeing how the “enjoyed thing” relates to Being.
    Fefonz Quan: ? (Tarmel)
    Stim Morane: The “gratitude” angle Gaya just introduced could indeed be relevant, especially if it’s applied broadly, rather than to particular conditions we just happen to prefer. So “gratitude for just being, regardless of particular conditions” ... this is closely related to PaB, I think.
    Artemisia Svoboda: I notice I have positive emotional reaction to the word
    Stim Morane: :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: It is very pleasant
    Wester Kiranov: that sounds like "be grateful to everyone"
    Stim Morane: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: gratitude rather than appreciation is more closely aligned to PaB?
    Stim Morane: all words have a host of meanings, most of which won't apply well here.
    Fefonz Quan: phrased like that it feel to me like too close to the pinkish 'positive thinking' concept
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: gratitude has problems too
    Artemisia Svoboda: I decided to make it part of my practice to observe what the word does to me
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Artemisia Svoboda: rather than analyze it various meanings
    Fefonz Quan: In jewsih tradition they say "God has given, God has taken, Bless God"
    Stim Morane: :) interesting.
    Stim Morane: Anyway, the main point is to learn to see more, in a way that bears on the "Being" issue.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I think this is perhaps what I am experiencing Artemisia
    Artemisia Svoboda: and it is not clear to me yet whether sitting with a pleasant word
    Artemisia Svoboda: helps or obscures things
    arabella Ella: hiya everyone
    Pila Mulligan: hi Mick and Arabella
    Fefonz Quan: hi Ara
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    kenji Pookes: Much of this, I think, is related to language--and specifically English--I think. To "appreciate" does not have the same meanings in other languages. In Japanese, for example, several words indicated different forms of appreciation. Moteasobu, for example, includes the character for "play" and can mean to appreciate. Kansha-suru means to give thanks. Kaisuru, means to understand. Gokurou-san means literally you are a hard worker, but implies appreciateion for your efforts. My point is that one aspect of this discussion that is important is the fact that English conveys and packes the concept of appreciation in certain ways that may not be meaninful in other cultures/languages.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick and arabella :)
    kenji Pookes: Hi Mick andArabella
    Artemisia Svoboda: knji, that is so true
    Stim Morane: Hi arabella
    Stim Morane: Interesting, kenji
    Adams Rubble: Hello Mick and Ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick, Ara
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Arabella and Mick
    Wester Kiranov: hi ara, mickey
    Stim Morane: Hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya everyone
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Mickorod & Arabella :)
    Tarmel Udimo: Good point Kenji
    kenji Pookes: The difficult here is that we tend to speak in these sorts of discussion as though the meaning in English is universal, but it isn't. It's hard to avoid this, but it is a very important point.
    Qt Core: hi mick, ara
    Fefonz Quan: [13:29] Artemisia Svoboda: and it is not clear to me yet whether sitting with a pleasant word [13:29] Artemisia Svoboda: helps or obscures things
    Fefonz Quan: i second this unclarified view
    Gaya Ethaniel patiently waits for her cushion to rezz ... apologies for standing.
    Wester Kiranov: even the meaning in english can differ between speakers
    kenji Pookes: I have to admit that this is one of my pet peeves with philosophy (also psychology)/ There is a tendency to universalize concepts that are specific--and very difficult to translate--to one language.
    Wester Kiranov: esp when you're talking about these things (Being etc)
    Stim Morane: contemplative traditions use ordinary words in new ways. We may have to do that too.
    Tarmel Udimo: All we are really doing is qualifying our inner relationship to the word
    Tarmel Udimo: so there in effect can't be a wrong or right
    Mickorod Renard: some of us..(me) are not that academic anyway
    Stim Morane: yes
    Fefonz Quan: i use the word mostly as a tool or simbol
    kenji Pookes: Yes. I'm not sure how to translate "being" into Japanese. There are two distinct verbs for "to be". Iru and aru. Iru refers to animate things, aru refers to inanimate things. Right there you can see that Japanese conceptualize being in a way different from English speakers. We don't distinguish between animate and inanimate objects when talking about being.
    Fefonz Quan: symbol*
    Stim Morane: the point is just to clarify the relevant experiential aspect
    kenji Pookes: But the relevant experintial aspect is mediated by culture and language.
    Stim Morane: yes, that's true
    Stim Morane: But it's not entirely a cultural thing ... at least that has been the view of contemplative traditions.
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    kenji Pookes: I actually think that it is entirely a cultural thing.
    Stim Morane: There is also the basic insight level which is considered transcultural.
    Stim Morane: Yes, kenji, that's a perfectly respectable view.
    kenji Pookes: Psychologists think a lot of things are transcultural--but they are usually wrong about that...
    Stim Morane: But it's not the view of the traditions I mentioned. Of course one could argue that their position was itself "cultural"
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    kenji Pookes: Stim, I would take that position.
    Stim Morane: I think this will only be decided by actual experience.
    Artemisia Svoboda: perhaps the transcultural part is that which gets lost as soon as we use language
    kenji Pookes: Why must it be decided? I think this is an important issues--why do we want so much to believe that there is A common human experience?
    Fefonz Quan: i think the human experience has some basic aspects that are transcending cultures
    arabella Ella: could it perhaps be that some of us develop a capability to transcent cultural differences or to switch between different cultures?
    Tarmel Udimo: interesting point kenji
    Fefonz Quan: if there is not kenji, maybe there is no way to communicate any experience between cultures
    kenji Pookes: I can move pretty easily between Japanese and American culture/language, but I never lose my fundamental Americanness. In Bourdieu's terms, there is habitus that I have embodied that I can't really shake.
    kenji Pookes: I think we can communicate, but things are lost in translation.
    arabella Ella nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: [13:37] Stim Morane: I think this will only be decided by actual experience. - So seeing more will naturally lead to appreciation Stim?
    kenji Pookes: Anyone here every try to count in Japanese?
    Stim Morane: This is an interesting but very tricky and controversial topic ... I'm not sure there's any way to convince someone to accept the transcultural angle, outside of actual "practice" and realization.
    Mickorod Renard: I think its important to some of us that we do not feel alone in having experiences,,that may be similar
    Pila Mulligan: chocolate is very nearly a common human experience
    Wester Kiranov: :-D
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    arabella Ella: so is love and pain
    Stim Morane: yes
    kenji Pookes: Right on, Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: Kenji, those Japanese words I have equivalent in Korean ... I understand your point but at a certain point, I do believe my experiences can be understood regardless the languages/cultures.
    arabella Ella: but perception is often culturally mediated and depends on expericnce and other background
    Stim Morane: at least some of them can, Gaya, which is the point.
    Stim Morane: Culture is also a hugely important factor.
    kenji Pookes: I think understanding is possible, but direct translation is problematic. I return to the issue of counting. Counting seems like a very fundamental thing, but in Japanese they count quite differently from English speakers.
    Stim Morane: But with respect to "Being", perhaps culture can be used skillfully to introduce, but not to capture the point.
    Stim Morane: Yes, direct translation is probably not possible.
    kenji Pookes: I would say that with respect to "being", being is different for people in different cultures.
    Stim Morane: Neither the cultural nor the transcultural emphasis applies to all cases.
    kenji Pookes: Stim, I'm not sure I like that idea--sounds like having your cake and eating it too.
    Fefonz Quan: is it a chocolate cake?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    kenji Pookes: I don't know how to count choclate cakes in Japanese, actually.
    Stim Morane: No, kenji ... I'm simply saying that some particularly fundamental facets of reality can be appreciated, with training, by all human beings. Meanwhile, many things are culture-specific.
    kenji Pookes: I do know how to count cars, dogs, and cows.
    Fefonz Quan: but you know how to eat them
    Tarmel Udimo: our levels of awareness or insight is where the common ground is
    Stim Morane: Culture is hugely important, but it's not truly fundamental in the sense used by contemplatives.
    kenji Pookes: But awareness and insight are products of culture.
    Stim Morane: Yes, that's true, kenji.
    Tarmel Udimo: however someone who has expereinced Being on a deeper level may not be able to convey that to someone who has had a lesser expereince
    Stim Morane: But the kind of awareness involved in contemplation goes beyond culture.
    kenji Pookes: That's probably thd difference, Stim. I think culture is really at the base of experiene. Without culture, humans lack the capacity for common experience. A good example is children who have been raised locked in closets--they cannot communicate with other humans for the most part.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, when those children grow up they wind up running banks and governments
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    kenji Pookes: THey do?
    Stim Morane: This is not a "debate", just a juxtaposition of different concerns.
    Stim Morane: Kenji, I appreciate and grant your point. I’m just saying it’s not the “only” point.
    kenji Pookes: Oh, you mean George Bosh.
    Fefonz Quan: that's not without culture kenji, that without some elementary capabilities, like creapling the child
    kenji Pookes: Stim, I think one has to come down on one side or the other on this one--I think there is only one point, basically. I may be wrong, but I don't think you can straddle the fence on this.
    Fefonz Quan: it is not culture you are taking from them
    Artemisia Svoboda: But you could say you do not know know for sure and hold one or the other as working hypothesis, as Pema would say
    Fefonz Quan: uhuman being of all cultures love and hate - not to say reproduce - in very similar ways
    Stim Morane: every contemplative who has realized something like "Being" over the past 2500 years would say what I just have. ANd these people came from many different cultures.
    kenji Pookes: Check out Bruce Wexler's book on the brain and culture; fascinating discussion of how the process of learning culture actually contributes to the hard wiring of the brain.
    Stim Morane: Yes, I know that literature.
    kenji Pookes: Reproduction is biological.
    Stim Morane: I'm just saying it's not the only thing that is at issue.
    Wester Kiranov: I definitely prefer to start with the possibility of human communication, even across cultures.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So which other meanings of appreciation are relevant to our practice here I wonder ...
    Fefonz Quan: as biological as any other behaviour kenji
    Stim Morane: seeing in a way that goes beyond our initial preferences and habits
    kenji Pookes: Granted--we are biological beings. But culture influences how we represent and experience our biology.
    arabella Ella: i think this group of people here is an excellent reflection of what Stim is trying to show as we all come from quite a variety of cultures
    Stim Morane: I am a Westerner who has realized the essential point of several different contemplative traditions drawn from India, Tibet, and China
    Wester Kiranov: biology influences how we represent and experience ourculture too
    kenji Pookes: I'm not trying to say that we can't communicate across cultures--if I believed that, then I wouldn't have much of a career as an anthropologist. But I do think that culture fundamentally influences the brain and that some levels of the way in which experience is constructured are extremely difficult, if not impossible, to translate.
    Stim Morane: It is possible, and actually emphasized by these traditions as important to go beyond one's ordinary level conditioning and framing.
    kenji Pookes: I CANNOT know what it is to be French, German, or Japanese. I can only get an approximation.
    Stim Morane: Yes, Yes, i know.
    Wester Kiranov: can we stop sapir-whorfing please?
    arabella Ella: Schleimacher and Quine then kenji :)
    kenji Pookes: I'm not Sapir-Whorfing, just pointing out my position.
    Fefonz Quan: (if we knew what that is wester)
    kenji Pookes: I'm not woofing, either.
    arabella Ella: or Chomsky - Pinker
    Fefonz Quan: Sapir-Whorfing sounds like a very magical and powerful use of a weapon
    kenji Pookes: But I don't think we should dismiss those folks, either. Although I'm not familiera with Quine.
    Pila Mulligan: "The linguistic relativity principle (also known as the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis) is the idea that the varying cultural concepts and categories inherent in different languages affect the cognitive classification of the experienced world in such a way that speakers of different languages think and behave differently because of it."
    Artemisia Svoboda: Fefonz, it is :)
    kenji Pookes: THat's what it is.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Personally I've been doing more of 'stop and stare'. I will keep in mind 'seeing beyond initial preferences and habits' while staring :)
    kenji Pookes: BAsic, Intro to Cultural Anthropology stuff. But there is a point to it.
    Tarmel Udimo: even if we were in total agreement with you Kenji - how do we proceed from here?
    Scathach Rhiadra: can you see beyond initial habits and preferences using your ordinary mind?
    Tarmel Udimo: how do we as a group of culturally different people start to talk about Being
    kenji Pookes: I'm inclined to drop the attempt to find universals of human nature/behavior/experience.
    Tarmel Udimo: so we are left with speaking of our own expereinces
    Wester Kiranov: what are you looking for here, kenji, if I may ask?
    kenji Pookes: That's where I would go with this, Tarmel. I don't think there is a universal "being" to talk about.
    kenji Pookes: Huh?
    arabella Ella: i think we can safely say we come from at least three different continents and speak a variety of native languages here
    Tarmel Udimo: and if they are common then perhaps we can begin to pseka together about these
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's a bit amusing ... I'd say 1/3 of what's being said are not showing up on my chat window let alone what I said so far ...
    kenji Pookes: I didn't follow your question, Wester.
    Wester Kiranov: why are you in this conversation? why are you choosing to sit here?
    Fefonz Quan: it's ok Gaya, there are repititions
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok :)
    Pila Mulligan: Wester may be wondering if you are being evangelical about cultural anthropology, Kenjii
    kenji Pookes: Should i leave? I have found this interesting. I thought the purpose of a conversation was to convey ideas--I'm happy to shut up if that's what you want.
    Adams Rubble: I always thought there was a listening component to anthropology
    Wester Kiranov: you do not have to leave, I am just wondering why you want to stay. really.
    kenji Pookes: Sorry, I'll be quiet. Didn't mean to intrude. I thought this was an open conversation--I stand corrected.
    Wester Kiranov: it is an open conversation, but it's not meant to be a phiolosophical conversation
    Wester Kiranov: it's supposed to be abpout our own experience
    Gaya Ethaniel: No at all Kenji ... we actually try to practice something common and share personal experiences of it ...
    Wester Kiranov: sorry if i got a bit irritated
    Fefonz Quan: well, kenji claims there is no such common experience
    kenji Pookes: Well, those are my experiences--or ideas based upon them. I won't bother with them again.
    Mickorod Renard: maybe we want to feel more like a family,,with common experiences
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namasté
    Adams Rubble: night Scath
    Mickorod Renard: nite Scath
    Stim Morane: bye!
    Tarmel Udimo: must go to the play workshop
    Adams Rubble: bye Stim :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Scath. Think I will log off too ... enjoy your day/night :)
    arabella Ella: kenji I dont really think it is a matter of asking you to stop your conversation, it is more a matter of reflection, flexibility and experience sharing - in a practical lived way
    Tarmel Udimo: bye
    Adams Rubble: Bye Tarmel
    kenji Pookes: I'll make one more point and then shut up completely. I think there is a fundamental value to challenging assumptions--that is a way to help us understand things better. A great deal of "experience" in other cultures has led me to think that mus of my assumptions are usually wrong. Done.
    Fefonz Quan: kenji, one of the main points we bump into here is that there are experiences, insights, that are very hard to communi9cate even if we were all american
    Tarmel Udimo: ty for the discussions
    arabella Ella: bye Tarmel Scath
    Adams Rubble: bye everyone :)
    Wester Kiranov: My experience in this group is that it's possible to communicate almost any idea to almost anyone.
    Fefonz Quan: bye Taremel, Scath
    Stim Morane: bye, Tarmel, Adams
    kenji Pookes: Apparently not this one, Wester.
    arabella Ella: yes kenji, part of the practice we attempt to experience involves challenging assumptions to some extent, but in a practical experienced lived rather than in a theoretical way
    Fefonz Quan: your idea is quite clearly communicated kenji just not agreed upon
    kenji Pookes: That's fine, I never asked anyone to agree. Just pointing out my experiences--I don't different experience and theory all that much.
    Fefonz Quan: even if there are no 'absolute' identical experiences, surely ther are correlates of experiences, even between far different cultures
    Fefonz Quan: 'love' in different culture will be much more similar then 'apple' and 'table'
    arabella Ella nods
    Artemisia Svoboda: well, no, that is not at all my experience
    kenji Pookes: It's not mine, either.
    arabella Ella: say more please?
    Stim Morane: Yes, this is tricky ...
    Fefonz Quan: ok, 'apple' is more correlated to 'apple' than apple to table, love is really complex
    Stim Morane: people really do disagree about this sort of point, when applied to most ordinary things.
    Stim Morane: in this respect, I agree completely with kenji
    Fefonz Quan: those that disagree and try to eat the table will not last long
    Stim Morane: yes, that's true too
    Stim Morane: But that is a rather different point.
    Nymf Hathaway: Thanks everyone, see you later
    Mickorod Renard: bye nymph
    Pila Mulligan: same, bye :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, I have to go too.
    Fefonz Quan: bye nymf, pila
    Stim Morane: Bye, everyone!
    kenji Pookes: Bye Nymf and Pila
    arabella Ella: bye Nymf
    kenji Pookes: Bye Stim
    Mickorod Renard: bye Pila,Stim
    Wester Kiranov: bye to all people leaving
    Fefonz Quan: bye Stim
    arabella Ella: bye Pila, Stim
    arabella Ella: i was just reflecting
    Artemisia Svoboda: what were you reflecting?
    arabella Ella: whether translating the terms 'being' and 'appreciate' into different languages does really make a difference to how i think of them
    arabella Ella: and i wonder
    arabella Ella: whether 'being' is similar to heidegger's 'da sein'?
    arabella Ella: (not that it is my language)
    Wester Kiranov: well i've been trying to translate them in dutch
    Wester Kiranov: I'm pretty sure it's not like dasein
    arabella Ella: did u manage wester?
    arabella Ella: to translate into dutch?
    Qt Core: just as some languages don't have the neuter and being become masculine or feminine change it
    Artemisia Svoboda: 'appreciate' cannot really be translated into German, which is my first language
    arabella Ella: and would you then use 'existence' instead of 'being' and would that be right too?
    Wester Kiranov: i talked about it with pema
    arabella Ella: yes?
    Wester Kiranov: and he gave a translation, but it does not capture the full spectum of the english appreciate
    arabella Ella: but Artemisia - what word do you use in german when u appreciate for eg a work of art?
    Wester Kiranov: it's more like "to value"
    arabella Ella: may I ask wester what translation he gave?
    arabella Ella: in dutch?
    Wester Kiranov: waardering
    arabella Ella: ok
    Artemisia Svoboda: wll, there is just not one word that captures the same spectrum of meanings that we discussed in the beginning
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: i wonder whether it would be 'essere' in Italian Qt?
    arabella Ella: and ... apprezamento ... does it exist?
    Artemisia Svoboda: By the way, I just feel I need to add that Pema insists on capitalizing 'Being'
    Qt Core: yes, but it has a masculine conotation if you use essere as a name
    Fefonz Quan: i thought one of the main things we pursue here is trying to go beyond words and concepts, and in this meeting we did just the opposite
    arabella Ella: yes he does Artemisia
    Artemisia Svoboda: He corrects me whe I don't
    Qt Core: the verb would be "apprezzare"
    Wester Kiranov: right fef - that's what i got irritated about
    arabella Ella: yea Fef apologies but my curiousity got the better of me
    Fefonz Quan: and with good justification
    Wester Kiranov: (also because i contributed as well)
    Mickorod Renard: if we were to trip over words all the time we would loose our freedom of expression
    Fefonz Quan: (to wester)
    arabella Ella: (I noticed ... ok ok ...)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: and words are just a very special case of culture differences
    arabella Ella: but even in the same language one can find differences ... also amongst americans and brits or canadians
    Qt Core: sadly they are needed for communications
    arabella Ella: sadly Qt?
    arabella Ella: why sadly?
    Fefonz Quan: not sadly, just that we shouldn't expect them to be totally accurate as mathematics i the first place
    Fefonz Quan: in the*
    Qt Core: an interesting question... if we could electrically wire two brain they will communicate raw ideas between them without the need of word ?
    Fefonz Quan: it's enough to hug, much more simple Qt :)
    arabella Ella: whoever said mathematics was exact or accurate ... it is just symbol manipulation
    Wester Kiranov: but it is very exact symbol manipulation :)
    Wester Kiranov: mathematics, like words, is very useful within its own domain
    Wester Kiranov: and can even be beautiful
    Fefonz Quan agrees with wester
    Fefonz Quan: i brought it as an example for something that can say some equation that everyone will agree upon, dependless on culture
    arabella Ella: i have my doubts there Fef but my brain is a bit too tired to argue
    Mickorod Renard: there is 'lost in translation'..but that doesnt mean that something isnt discovered
    Fefonz Quan: but we don't expect our experiences to be translated like that
    Fefonz Quan: agree with MIck too
    Wester Kiranov: I'm getting very tired - sorry. See you all later.
    Mickorod Renard: bye webs
    Fefonz Quan: bye Wester
    arabella Ella: bye wester
    arabella Ella: i must go now too
    Mickorod Renard: I have to go too..nackered
    Wester Kiranov: bye
    arabella Ella: nite everyone
    kenji Pookes: Bye Wester.
    Artemisia Svoboda: Me too. I guess I am in Wester's timezone :)
    kenji Pookes: Bye Arabella
    Artemisia Svoboda: Bye everyone
    Mickorod Renard: bye folks,,
    arabella Ella: and mine too Artemisia
    Fefonz Quan: bye all, good to see you
    arabella Ella: CET
    arabella Ella: bye then
    Qt Core: bye all then, have fun
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