2009.06.22 19:00 - Just a feeling

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. Threedee was the Guardian.




    Threedee Shepherd: Hiya
    Adelene Dawner: hi ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: how'sya?
    Threedee Shepherd: K
    Threedee Shepherd: caps off
    Adelene Dawner: that it went well, mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: (believe it or not I have a PaBish topic tonight)
    Threedee Shepherd: yup
    Adelene Dawner: Basically I'm trying to figure out how /why/whatever I wound up with that 'moral instinct' or whatever you want to call it...
    Adelene Dawner: Its accuracy is really starting to get to me. It's like... am I really weird with that? Do other people have that skill and just... ignore it? Buh?
    Threedee Shepherd: Other people have it, to a degree spread over a "normal distribution"
    Threedee Shepherd: It is currently being argued that either as gene or meme, it was selected for because it is necessary for a cultural group (tribe) to susvive
    Threedee Shepherd: However, there is a spread of the distribution such that even in a group of 150 in a tribe, there must be some enforcement mechanism
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: I'm more wondering... how did I wind up with it so strongly? I mean, there's nothing in my history that really explains it or anything.
    Threedee Shepherd: Why are some people very tall and others very short?
    Adelene Dawner: (I've had two strong experiences of this in the last 36 hours or so, so it's definitely on my mind right now.)
    Threedee Shepherd: That is, I am not sure it is a why question, at least from the genetic standpoint
    Adelene Dawner: Right... I don't think that's really what I'm asking.
    Threedee Shepherd: so what are you asking?
    Adelene Dawner: Part of it is that I'm *still* not entirely comfortable having things that I'm very-very good at. And that one in particular does really seem to come from left field. It's not anything I've actually worked on or anything.
    Adelene Dawner: So it's confusing.
    Threedee Shepherd: understood
    Threedee Shepherd: I do not recall ever thinking, gee I am not moral enough and I want to be a moral person. It justt "came naturally"
    Adelene Dawner: That angle kind of makes sense... I'm so used to having skills that I've worked on at least a little that my immediate reaction is 'wait.. why did I develop this?'. For most if not all of my other skills, there's an answer to that question, even if the aptitude is innate.
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Threedee Shepherd: There are probably many ways to *develop* ones moral sense, assuming the innate genetics is there, such as..
    Threedee Shepherd: role models, being treated badly and not wanting to inflict that on others, seeing what works well in a longer-run,.....
    Adelene Dawner: yeah... this seems kind of deeper than that, though.
    Threedee Shepherd: I know, personally.
    Adelene Dawner: It's not something that I have to think about at all, that's the disturbing part :)
    Adelene Dawner: In fact more often than not it's 'just a feeling' that something is Wrong, and I do have to actually sit down and figure out why I feel that way. I've never failed to come up with a coherent reason, though, so it seems to be pretty accurate.
    Threedee Shepherd: Most NTs do not ponder that deeply, as you well know.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Threedee Shepherd: When I see an immoral act, especially one that involves violence, I have thus gut feeling/question, "How could someone do that?"
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: I'm talking about things that aren't even close to that obvious though.
    Adelene Dawner: One of the two recent ones, for example:
    Threedee Shepherd: habit
    Adelene Dawner: There's something I was considering asking Peer to do, and just couldn't shake the feeling that it was a really bad idea to even consider asking. When I thought about it some more, I realized that even though Peer would almost certainly be okay with it, she's very, very bad at saying no to that kind of request... and since she 'can't' say no, I can't trust a yes to be accurate.
    Threedee Shepherd: understood. Yes, your threshold for such things is much more sensative that most
    Adelene Dawner: Yep, that's what I meant.
    Threedee Shepherd: I suggest it has to do with the way you see the essence of patterns more clearly than most
    Adelene Dawner: Could be. But I get the impression that the 'standard' moral reasoning would go the other way on that, even with the issue recognized - something along the lines of "well, she can say no, there's nothing stopping her, so it's okay".
    Adelene Dawner: (Which does kind of make me wonder if I'm right at all, for any useful value of right... or at least wonder why I have such a different innate reaction, if both can be considered correct.)
    Adelene Dawner chuckles at Squee.
    Adelene Dawner: ( Squee: Ignore the propaganda. Focus on what you see.)
    Threedee Shepherd: You are "stricter" not used in a judgmental way. Thinking of how you will view a situation serves as a good model for me.
    Adelene Dawner: Stricter is a good description, yes. :)
    Threedee Shepherd: You start more bottom up as in, let me see the key elements of the pattern and then decide how to act/behave. NTs more typically start top down and then look for jusrttifications
    Adelene Dawner: That makes sense. The very toip level is 'what do I want'... I rarely even get there.
    Threedee Shepherd: NTs tend to act first and think later :(
    Adelene Dawner: Yep. The weird thing is that I obviously *could* do that, and still maintain my level of morals - and did, when I worked in the nursing home. Remember we talked about that?
    Threedee Shepherd: true, again basic habit prevailed
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: I guess you could say I literally don't know how to ignore that basic reality-of-the-situation stuff. ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, and because of all the emotional-foo overlay we have discussed many times, NTs rarely clearly see the "reality-of-the-situation-stuff."
    Adelene Dawner nods.
    Threedee Shepherd: nice
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: an interesting discussion, even a PaB one, is to explore the concept "what do I want"
    Adelene Dawner: Good question... not one I spend a lot of time on ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Which in part is why I raise it.
    Adelene Dawner ponders.
    Threedee Shepherd: Truth, much (most?) of what I want atually does not matter, in terms of whether I receive it or not.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Well, this could be a function of the company I'm keeping right now, but most of what's coming to mind is that I want my friends to be as happy and comfortable in their lives as I am."
    Threedee Shepherd: So, how much of that is "under your control"?
    Adelene Dawner: Some. Not much.
    Threedee Shepherd: If something you want (whatever it is) is beyond your control, what sense does it make to *want* it?
    Adelene Dawner: Depends on how you define 'beyond your control'. If you want it, but you can't do anything about it right now, you can still keep an eye out for new situations that you can fiddle with to increase your chances of getting what you want. That gets frustrating quick if you're not at peace with the process, though.
    Adelene Dawner: Hiya, Corvi-Luv ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, that makes sense. Let me give an example. I want world peace. I cannot do anything to achieve it ( and histroy suggests it cannot be achieved.) So if I place my want into such a broad category, it is useful. I can want to act peacefully, and that is something different
    Threedee Shepherd: Hiya Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Luv's.
    Adelene Dawner nods. "That also depends on how you define 'world peace' and which parts of the concept you value.
    Adelene Dawner: You can also look at it from the angle of "why do I want this".
    Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, we are chatting about "an interesting discussion, even a PaB one, is to explore the concept "what do I want""
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Threedee Shepherd: I guess I start with the idea that basic security, health, food, shelter are "good things" that everyone could and should have
    Adelene Dawner: All of those are concrete things you can work on. :)
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed
    Adelene Dawner needs to afk for a minute or two.
    Threedee Shepherd: That is what I mean by the "micro" level vs. the macro level of "world peace"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: k
    Threedee Shepherd: k
    Corvuscorva Nightfire blinks herself back awake.
    Threedee Shepherd: tired?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think..it's time for bed.
    Threedee Shepherd: long day?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes.
    Adelene Dawner: Really, I think in general that rewording that kind of macro level thing is a good idea. Like your example of world peace: One of the most realistic-sounding ways of making that happen would be to pull a conquest, take over all the governments, and hot have separate countries any more. No countries, no war, there ya go. But I don't think you'd really consider that an acceptable solution, so what did you really mean? ;)
    Adelene Dawner purrs to Corvi. "Sleep well, then, Luv."
    Threedee Shepherd: I g'night, sleep well
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ty
    Threedee Shepherd: I mean I wish that governments would not make war
    Threedee Shepherd: that is not a possible situation
    Adelene Dawner: Logistically, yeah, taking over the world is pretty impossible. My point was, if it wasn't logistically impossible, would you consider it an acceptable solution?
    Threedee Shepherd: It won't work, goveernment deos not work that way
    Threedee Shepherd: Anyway, goodnight PaB


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