2009.07.02 13:00 - Attachment is about ideas, not objects

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

My last comment for this meeting was that "Sometimes the most memorable comments come right at the end of the session!" This doesn't mean what goes before is worthless. Quite the reverse. And it is still worthwhile reading through the beginning and middle to get to those comments at the end! :)

There was someone I had not met here before.

Sunfire Langer: hello Storm
Storm Nordwind: Hello Sunfire
Storm Nordwind: Please join me closer in :)
Sunfire Langer: done
Storm Nordwind: You have been here before, yes? But I don't think I've had the pleasure of your company till now
Storm Nordwind: Good evening Wol
Sunfire Langer: I have, and yes, this is our first meeting
Wol Euler: hello storm, sunfire
Sunfire Langer: Hi Wol

Eliza materialised in our midst!

Wol Euler: and hello eliza
Storm Nordwind: Hello Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm, Wol, Sunfire :)
Sunfire Langer: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: I must be off actually...was still here from this morning :)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: file that under "sentences you can only hear in SL"
Storm Nordwind: Your excuses are noted ;)
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe...Good to see you all though :))

Wol asked me about a topic that is taking most of my attention these days, but I'll try not to bore you with my obsessions!

Wol Euler: how many days, storm? :)
sophia Placebo: greetings
Storm Nordwind: Haha! You know I have two dates!
Wol Euler: hello sophia!
Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
Sunfire Langer: sophia, :)
Storm Nordwind: 20 days and 38 days Wol!
Wol Euler grins
Storm Nordwind: Hi sophia
Storm Nordwind: And now I am sitting in a house which reminds me very much of this pavilion! :)

It was true. The sudden lack of furniture in the house made it seem very airy and open. Meanwhile, we noticed sophia had a different appearance to our recent past experience.

Wol Euler: heh
sophia Placebo: lol
Wol Euler: heheheh
Sunfire Langer: <:-l ?
Wol Euler: sophia has turned neko since we last met :)
sophia Placebo: maybe i should set it inactive
Storm Nordwind: I don't think there is a cure, is there?
Sunfire Langer: its nice to play. I was once a vampire in SL
sophia Placebo: yep with tail and 2 ears
Wol Euler: surrender. Resistance is futile.
Storm Nordwind: I've occasionally tried being a human in RL, but the returns were not great enough
sophia Placebo: im playing only with outer look sun
Wol Euler: :)
Sunfire Langer has no designs on anybodies' virtue. its important to make that clear
Wol Euler: :)
sophia Placebo: :)

Why were people here in Second Life? Why had some people stayed away? Same reason it seems!

sophia Placebo: though i come to sl caus e i thought it is a game
Wol Euler: I stayed away at first because I thought it was _just_ a game :)
sophia Placebo: :))
Storm Nordwind: Quite right Wol!
Storm Nordwind: You did sophia? And how has that changed?
sophia Placebo: poeple told me it is not
Sunfire Langer: When I saw news reports and blogs about it, seeing the possibilities of connection and expression here, I knew I wanted to try it
Sunfire Langer: I understand SL now as something very exciting...
Storm Nordwind: Has it fulfilled (or is it fulfilling) your hopes for connection and expression Sunfire?
Sunfire Langer: oh yes, I get a lot from SL. What excites me most is that it is humans' first fledgling steps into VR
Storm Nordwind: You say that as though you had a crystal ball and could see more! :)
Sunfire Langer: Grasshopper says to the blind master 'Old man, how is it that you hear these things?' the master replies 'Young man, how is it that you do not?'
Wol Euler: :)

Sunfire left us quite suddenly. arabella joined us.

Storm Nordwind: I see you are still wearing your parachute sophia. Is this a new sport too?
sophia Placebo: what parachute?
Storm Nordwind: The one you are wearing :)
Wol Euler: oh yes, indeed.
Storm Nordwind: Type ctrl-alt-T and you will see it
Wol Euler: it's invisible, attached to your hand
sophia Placebo: is it gone now?
Storm Nordwind: yes
sophia Placebo: :)
Storm Nordwind: It may have frightened away the Sun
sophia Placebo: hehe
Storm Nordwind: Hi there arabella!
sophia Placebo: hi ara
Wol Euler: hello ara
arabella Ella: Hiya Storm Wol sophia!

Roleplaying is a very common pastime in Second Life. Some say that most people are roleplaying all the time in Second Life! Some point out that real life is full of roleplaying too, even without donning exotic garb. It's a broad subject. When I made the next comment I was thinking of avatars taking on different appearances, sometimes radically different, and perhaps adopting some cultural or behavioural changes too. These changes in appearance, I find, can be illuminating, both in how we view ourselves and how other view us. What are we really? When we discard a role, what is it we become afterwards? It's a very Play as Being activity!

Storm Nordwind: So I suspect that a bit of roleplaying in SL is very good for Play as Being.
Storm Nordwind: I think it helps you question what is real and what is appearance
Wol Euler: ah, right.
sophia Placebo: i guess
Wol Euler: good point.
Storm Nordwind: On the other hand, it's easy to get lost in it and think it's just another reality
sophia Placebo: i tried to be part of some game here in sl but i didnt find a funny one
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps that's an opportunity for you sophia
Storm Nordwind: perhaps you could create one worth being part of
Storm Nordwind: and we could join in!
sophia Placebo: hehe
arabella Ella: good idea :)
sophia Placebo: i wish i was a story writer

It has seemed to me that in Second Life, the old saying "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade," can sometimes have more resonance than in real life, for the opportunities to create can be greater. Meanwhile we continued for a while on sophia's feline appearance.

arabella Ella: could you tell us more about your experience Storm?
Storm Nordwind: experience in what ara?
arabella Ella: if i got it right you said u had a go at role play on SL?
arabella Ella: or have i got it all wrong?
Storm Nordwind: It's OK! Yes I did to some extent. I don't do so now.
Storm Nordwind: I was commenting on sophia going neko!
Storm Nordwind: But I have tried a few things myself when I joined SL
arabella Ella: neko?
Storm Nordwind: And that was 3 years ago
Storm Nordwind searches for a concise definition. Wol?
Wol Euler: oh, um.
sophia Placebo: cat like i guess ara
Wol Euler: neko means "cat" in japanese, and the neko style of ears and tail is related to post-apocalyptic anime
Wol Euler: cat/human hybrids or maybe mutants
arabella Ella: oh yes i see :)
Storm Nordwind: yeah, it's hard to be concise about it without just saying "cat" and leaving people none the wiser!
Wol Euler: there are some places that play survivalist, dying-world neko style
sophia Placebo: narato anime is the most famouse though it didnt look much post apoclyptic
Wol Euler: but many more people wear it as a comfortable style.
Wol Euler: I was a neko too until I discovered AVid and went fetish goth :)
arabella Ella: :)
Storm Nordwind: I think these things can have the potential to be more than a style statement
arabella Ella: that's what's so brilliant about SL ... the unlimited possibilities
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: (to both)
sophia Placebo: i turn to neko cause i got this tail :)) silly but funny
Storm Nordwind: haha!
Storm Nordwind chuckles
sophia Placebo: hi fef
Wol Euler: I noticed that I was very happy as a neko, I found it a comfortable and cheerful way of being
Wol Euler: hello fef
Storm Nordwind: Hi Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hi all :)
arabella Ella: hiya Fefonz
Storm Nordwind: Interesting Wol. Play as Neko?
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: what is a neko?
Storm Nordwind chuckles
arabella Ella: i just asked that question too Fef
sophia Placebo: cat like look with tail and ears
Wol Euler: [13:24] sophia Placebo: cat like i guess ara [13:24] Wol Euler: neko means "cat" in japanese, and the neko style of ears and tail is related to post-apocalyptic anime [13:25] Wol Euler: cat/human hybrids or maybe mutants [13:25] arabella Ella: oh yes i see :) [13:25] Storm Nordwind: yeah, it's hard to be concise about it without just saying "cat" and leaving people none the wiser! [13:25] Wol Euler: there are some places that play survivalist, dying-world neko style [13:25] sophia Placebo: narato anime is the most famouse though it didnt look much post apoclyptic [13:26] Wol Euler: but many more people wear it as a comfortable style.
Storm Nordwind: Thanks Wol!
Wol Euler: yw
Fefonz Quan: thanks :)
Storm Nordwind: I was speculating that adopting role-playing can potentially help you to question appearances and reality
sophia Placebo: i turned sad when i tried to make an intersting goth outfit

When the quarter-hour bell went, the mist from the centre spout (where the pool normally is, but in this case wasn't) blew all over us. A typically Fefonzian reaction followed!

Fefonz Quan: (we are in the cloud!... i'm meltinggggg....)

And I decided, for the first time in may months, to invoke the rain gods who brought a little thunder with them. Drops of water fell everywhere. The weather in real life seemed to warrant it but it took Wol and others quite by surprise!

Wol Euler: what the hell was that?
arabella Ella: yes i saw it too?
Storm Nordwind looks around innocently
arabella Ella: oh yea?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
sophia Placebo: hi yak
Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
Fefonz Quan: didn't see a thing..
arabella Ella: Hiya Yakuzza
Fefonz Quan: Hey Yaku
Wol Euler: veeeeery suspicious.
Storm Nordwind: If Fefonz was melting I wanted to make sure we got the mess washed away!
sophia Placebo: i see it too
Wol Euler: are you wearing one shoe in memory of Michael Jackson?
Fefonz Quan: ah cool :)
arabella Ella: i thought we were all about to be buried alive
Fefonz Quan: buried SLive
Wol Euler: :)

arabella returned to my earlier idea of roleplaying and questioning what is real.

arabella Ella: So Storm how do you think role play can help us to question image and appearance?
Storm Nordwind: I think because people so often identify with things that are not them
Storm Nordwind: Role-playing forces them out of that to some extent
Storm Nordwind: Though the danger is they will put the identification onto other things instead of course
Storm Nordwind: I tried that too 3 years ago in SL by trying cross-gender avatars
Storm Nordwind: And that was a fascinating exercise
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
arabella Ella: did you manage to role play a female convincingly or was it very difficult?
arabella Ella: in retrospect?
Storm Nordwind: In retrospect it was very easy indeed
Fefonz Quan: i would think it will be fascinating, though regarding self-identification, it can work both ways
Wol Euler: this question of it being "convincing" is one that fascinates me.
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: It seemed to me that trying to convince missed the point entirely
Fefonz Quan: guess its in the eye of the convinciere too
Wol Euler: indeed :)
Storm Nordwind: I was simply myself in other garbs, and I simply took a interest in other people
Wol Euler: yes, that is my experience too, alts are "just me", not "playing", but they are different me's
Storm Nordwind nods
Fefonz Quan: hence instead of dissolving the self-grasping, it might just multiply it :)

A Buddhist might describe self-grasping ignorance as the delusion that was the source of all our negativity and problems. (Something so simple?) They might continue by saying that self-grasping ignorance grasps our own or others’ self, or I, as truly existent, and grasps any phenomenon other than our own or others’ self as truly existent. (But they are, aren't they?) And they might point to the only way to eradicate it as realizing 'emptiness'. But here Fefonz is just joking! (Or is he?)

I continued by explaining why I'd chosen that particular experiment.

Storm Nordwind: I was building on an experience I'd had in 1995 when the person who was to be come my wife (and later my ex) first got into correspondence with me. She was convinced for our first few emails that I was a woman (though I'd not attempted to say anything about gender)
Wol Euler smiles
Wol Euler: hello ari, nice to see you
Arisia Vita: Hi all...
sophia Placebo: hi arisia
Storm Nordwind: She was analysing the way I wrote from an American point of view (as she was a trained linguist)
Fefonz Quan: hi Ari
Storm Nordwind: Hi Ari
arabella Ella: hi ari
Fefonz Quan: So simply the fact that you were more polite decieved her? :)
Wol Euler: it does have a certain rarity value
Storm Nordwind: I wasn't acting like an American male is all I will say!
arabella Ella: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: So I was apparently presenting the appearance of an American female!
Storm Nordwind: Without trying
sophia Placebo: i was precieved to be male
Wol Euler: ari, come and join us
Storm Nordwind: So it was a natural experiment to put on a female avatar and see what would happen in Second life
sophia Placebo: hi mick
Fefonz Quan: Yo Mick
Storm Nordwind: Hi Mick
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi mick
Arisia Vita: Hi Mic
Wol Euler: hello mick
arabella Ella: hiya mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya everyone
Fefonz Quan: Yaku, you are levitating
Storm Nordwind: Yes Yak appears to be levitating
Fefonz Quan wonders how many meditation hours it takes :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i dunno that happens alot

The emptiness of Buddhist teachings is not nothingness, but is the real nature of phenomena; ultimate truth, emptiness, and ultimate nature of phenomena are the same. However, sitting in the almost vacant house in Scotland, I was experiencing quite a different form of emptiness!

Fefonz Quan: according to (the) Storm it feels like new jersey here
Wol Euler: or his now-empty house
Wol Euler: interesting mix of images
Storm Nordwind: More like the latter
Storm Nordwind: It is interesting to watch oneself when you are giving most of your possessions away
Wol Euler: mmmm?
Storm Nordwind: Yes. Some of these things (like guitars, amps and stack for example) I have had for many years. They have many memories associated with them.
Storm Nordwind: But the feeling is not like relationship severing or bereavement
Storm Nordwind: Though it could be if I let it
Wol Euler nods
Fefonz Quan: Storm, you should at least notice your friends about thhose stuff! giving sll those amps away...
Storm Nordwind: Well if could have come round and picked them up Fef, you could have had them!
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: i have a brother in London, mind you!
Wol Euler: just drop them on my profile :)
Storm Nordwind laughs
Storm Nordwind: I have a daughter in London, and she had first choice but she didn't drive up
Storm Nordwind: It's an 800 mile round trip
Storm Nordwind: Instead they went to the brother of an ordained Buddhist monk who is the son of my Buddhist teacher
Wol Euler counts on her fingers to figure that out
Storm Nordwind: On condition they send me mp3s of them being used! :)
Wol Euler: good!
Fefonz Quan: Those Buddhists with their cleansed Karma! They get it all!
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Storm Nordwind: That's brilliant Fef - I'll have to remember that one!

Fefonz's comment was the quote of the evening for me!

Storm Nordwind: In this case all meant a 100W Marshall and a 200W Trace Elliot
Fefonz Quan: ok, so fefonz didn't loose a shot at a les Paul?
Storm Nordwind: I gave that away 2 weeks before
Wol Euler: ooooh
Fefonz Quan: ohhhh.... we should stop here.....
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Wol Euler hands you a kleenex
Fefonz Quan goes to the side and weeps quietly.
Fefonz Quan: guess we should stop boring you all with those guitar issues
Fefonz Quan: (snif, snif)
Storm Nordwind: Hey it was suppossed to be me not you that was attached to them!
Wol Euler: I guess that proves that attachment is about ideas, not objects :)
Fefonz Quan: right!
Storm Nordwind smiles
Fefonz Quan: hehe

A wonderfully Wollian quote!

Storm Nordwind: Have all the people who are going to Stim's workshop in two minutes done their homework this week? ;)
Mickorod Renard: no
sophia Placebo: no
Fefonz Quan: depends, what were the homworks?
Wol Euler: "the lag monster ate it"

Sometimes the most memorable comments come right at the end of the session!

Mickorod Renard: I havnt had time to post the log from my tuesday session yet
Storm Nordwind shrugs
Storm Nordwind: I don't know Fef
Storm Nordwind: I missed the last few weeks
arabella Ella: i missed them too
Mickorod Renard: stim will let rip with his wrath
Storm Nordwind: But time to go for those that want to
Mickorod Renard: I dont know if I dare
Fefonz Quan: (ho ho ho, away to Stim we go... pam pam pam)
Storm Nordwind watches the rush
Mickorod Renard: I had better have a go on a cigar
Wol Euler: bye fef
Storm Nordwind waves
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
arabella Ella: yes i will go to Stim too bye everyone :)
Mickorod Renard: nite yku ara
Wol Euler: 'night ara
Arisia Vita: I must go too, there is a meeting at Kira I want to attend...
Wol Euler: bye yakuzza, storm
Mickorod Renard: nite arisia
Storm Nordwind: Bye all
Wol Euler: goodnight storm
Arisia Vita: bye all...
Wol Euler: mick? are you leaving?
Storm Nordwind: The water did not wake her!
Wol Euler: :)
Mickorod Renard: hi,,soz,,was havin a puf
Mickorod Renard: yep,,to stims
Storm Nordwind: Feel free to return it to cosy seating Wol if you're staying
Wol Euler: ty
sophia Placebo: bye everyone
Wol Euler: let's stop the recorder