Page last modified 16:38, 9 Apr 2010 by wol

*Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session.*

This was a pleasant session, just Gaya and I chatting peacefully.

Wol Euler: morning gaya

Gaya Ethaniel: Morning Wol :)

Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?

Wol Euler: thank you for covering for me last week, in case I haven't said it before :)

Gaya Ethaniel: No problem at all :)

Wol Euler: I'm well, thanks, and yourself?

Gaya Ethaniel: Good good, just sticking around for postman today :)

Wol Euler: christmas parcels arriving early?

Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh no ... one of my machines is dying, need to upgrade urgently.

Wol Euler: oh dear.

Gaya Ethaniel: It happens :)

Gaya Ethaniel: When are you leaving for your holiday again?

Wol Euler: thursday morning!

Gaya Ethaniel: oooo

Wol Euler: and no, I have to my dismay and shame, not yet asked for a replacement for those two sessions

Gaya Ethaniel: ah

Gaya Ethaniel: I could cover one at least, will get back to you about it.

Wol Euler: I can still get to the internet, so I will be able to read the transcripts and post a log, it only needs someone to sit here and greet peope

Gaya Ethaniel: Posting is not a big deal.

Gaya Ethaniel: I could cover 17th - can't do next week.

Wol Euler smiles and shrugs. I agree, but for others it seems to be a bigger deal, so I offer (speaking now to the future wiki audience)

Wol Euler: great! Thanks very much, I will ask for cover for the 10th on the mailing list.

Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)

Gaya Ethaniel: This month there is a backlog it seems.

Wol Euler: yeah

Wol Euler: we were talking about that at the Kira team meeting, it's odd that so many are missing this month - and from so far back too.

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...

Gaya Ethaniel: How is Scribe project going?

Wol Euler sighs.

Wol Euler: I still owe the one from May, and have stepped down. Eliza has taken my slot.

Gaya Ethaniel: ah ...

Wol Euler: I never really found my way into that, I wasn't comfortable writing about it. Dunno why...

Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok

Gaya Ethaniel: I just pick bits out of logs. I am not as creative as others but that's just how I do it.

Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe it's a general mood in the group ... ?

Wol Euler: summer doldrums, perhaps?

Gaya Ethaniel: Possibly :)

I get onto my hobbyhorse: the expression of character through appearance in Second Life.

Wol Euler: I noticed that a mutual friend had started a Flickr photo project, putting together the different appearances of folks who have several alts (or distinctly differnt avs for the same SL name)

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Wol Euler: that seems to have tapered off lately, or perhaps she just hasn't been posting hte results where I was looking

Gaya Ethaniel: It is quite interesting to see them together.

Wol Euler: I thought they were quite marvellous, so very different.

Wol Euler: and all so characterful.

Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's hard to get hold of people or co-ordinate time to meet up in SL.

Wol Euler nods

Gaya Ethaniel: And some are reluctant of course to have different AVs together, esp. with alts.

Wol Euler: yes, that too.

Wol Euler: Alt and I hesitated for exactly that reason, but she doesn't give their names so nobody who doesn't already know us would be able to put us together.

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Gaya Ethaniel: Some of pictures show similarities while others seemingly different.

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Wol Euler: family similarities, perhaps?

Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not quite sure Wol ... it's difficult to put my figure on it.

Wol Euler: thinking about some of those photos of people I know, I think perhaps that alts are more alike, and that people who make different apperaances for one av do make larger changes

Wol Euler: gayabunny and old-lady gaya for instance

Wol Euler: or Ade: eagle or lion or woman

Gaya Ethaniel: You mean people who make experiment with appearances in SL tend to have RL changes?

Wol Euler: I'm not sure quite what I mean :)

Wol Euler: thinking out loud

Gaya Ethaniel: Yeah ... I was reading this bit.

Gaya Ethaniel: [1:22] Wol Euler: thinking about some of those photos of people I know, I think perhaps that alts are more alike, and that people who make different apperaances for one av do make larger changes

Wol Euler: I meant rather that Gaya's different appearances are more extreme compared to each other, than the true alts of some people.

Wol Euler: It has been said that Alt and I have a family similarity

Gaya Ethaniel: ah ...

Gaya Ethaniel: True you two resemble somewhat :)

Gaya Ethaniel: It's fun to try out :)

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Serious versus playful.

Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... perhaps this is how I should approach my meditation ...

Wol Euler: mmm?

Gaya Ethaniel: Well it seems ... what's the word.

Gaya Ethaniel: I take it way too seriously.

Wol Euler smiles

Gaya Ethaniel: It's good but in a way counter-productive.

Wol Euler: perhaps "more play, less being"?

Gaya Ethaniel: See ... the word 'play' has been puzzling to me somewhat. My approach to things in general tend to be 'strict'.

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Gaya Ethaniel: Stim suggested that I apply lightly.

Wol Euler: yes

Gaya Ethaniel: apply [something] lightly*

Wol Euler: "play" does not mean "trivial" or "idle"

Gaya Ethaniel listens.

Wol Euler: well :)

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Wol Euler: the apparent radical split between play and not-play is an illusion.

Wol Euler: play can be very serious too

Wol Euler: but in a different way

Wol Euler: it can be loose and friendly and malleable, while still being taken seriously by those who do it

Gaya Ethaniel: hm ...

Gaya Ethaniel: Paradox everywhere these days.

Wol Euler: :)

Wol Euler: apparent paradox only.

Sliders versus switches.

Wol Euler: play and not-play are the ends of a slider, not the poles of an on/off switch

Gaya Ethaniel: ok ... pls say more?

Wol Euler thinks.

Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)

Wol Euler laughs

Gaya Ethaniel squeezes yet another friend for some wisdom.

Wol Euler: this will take a while, I have the shape of what I want to say, but can't yet find the words

Gaya Ethaniel: No hurry :)

Wol Euler: wisdom? naaah. A few tricks that I have picked up along the way.

Gaya Ethaniel: yeah ... that's wisdom alright.

Wol Euler: strict (your word, better than not-play) is the opposite end of that slider.

Wol Euler: where everything is fixed. Definite rules and structure and systems, not malleable, not flexible.

Gaya Ethaniel: mhm

Wol Euler: Strict is good for many things. The last person you want to have working in your mouth is an imaginative and adventurous dentist.

Gaya Ethaniel laughs!

Wol Euler: or repairing your car.

Learning.

Gaya Ethaniel: ok but strict is good for learning.

Gaya Ethaniel: Especially at the beginning of things.

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Wol Euler: because strict makes patterns, and patterns help us to learn, at least at the beginning

Wol Euler: we need to learn that 6*9=54, and to know that by heart without calculating it afresh each time

Wol Euler: else we would (a) never be able to balance a checkbook, and (b) not get the joke of 6*9=42

Gaya Ethaniel: True ... then when being strict goes where to get self-discipline?

Wol Euler: play can be disciplined too.

Wol Euler: people don't get up and walk outside while playing cards

Wol Euler: baseball players don't lie down and work on their tans

Gaya Ethaniel: So enjoying is the key for that?

Wol Euler: right. It's a differnt kind of discipline.

Wol Euler: it is internal, comes from within the thing-that-you-do; not from outside, from your superego shouting orders at you

Wol Euler: the discipline of play comes from the joy of playing, and the desire that our playmates feel joy too

Addiction.

Gaya Ethaniel: But it is all too easy for strict to become a drag and enjoyment to addiction.

Wol Euler: indeed!

Wol Euler: moderation is the key to happiness.

Wol Euler: people get addictted to the oddest things. They win the lottery and then go right on out and continue to buy lottery tickets.

Gaya Ethaniel nods. Anything can be turned into an addictive/obsessive activity.

Wol Euler: addiction and desire-turning-to-drag happen when the apparent goal is not the real reason for the activity

Wol Euler: the person buys lottery tickets because they think money will give them a better life

Gaya Ethaniel thinks ... goals ...

Wol Euler: they continue to buy tickets after winning, when they already have the money, because it was actually not about money for them

Wol Euler: but about luck and chance and hope.

Gaya Ethaniel: Goals or needs or both?

Wol Euler: the difference is hard to tell sometimes :)

Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok

Wol Euler: well, so it seems to me. Especially when we think about ourselves, what we do and why we do it

Gaya Ethaniel nods ...

Apparent and real goals.

Wol Euler: I *think* I buy lottery tickets because having money would let me change my life in a way that would make me happy.

Gaya Ethaniel: So what was the goal before winning lottery? Did it change afterwards or s/he just didn't notice the real one that was consistent throughout?

Wol Euler: what I am actually buying though is not the chance at money, but something quite different.

Wol Euler: I buy a reason not to make any change by myself!

Gaya Ethaniel thinks.

Wol Euler: what I buy is a thing called "hope" which lies out there, away from me, somewhere entirely else.

Wol Euler: the real goal was this idea that something outside of me can come along and change my life _for_ me, that I do not need to do the work

Gaya Ethaniel: I know that doesn't work for me.

Wol Euler: it doesn't work for anyone, Gaya, because that outsideforce majeurdoesn't care about us.

God watches as a parent does.

Wol Euler: somebody described the relation of God watching what we do, to a parent watching her children play

Wol Euler: she wants them to be happy, and wishes that they would play fairly together

Wol Euler: but as long as they are happy she doesn't particularly care whether htey play horses or dolls.

Gaya Ethaniel thinks ...

Gaya Ethaniel: Most parents do mind what their children play with/for though.

Gaya Ethaniel: But I get the message :)

Wol Euler: :)

Gaya Ethaniel: But what's the connection ...?

Gaya Ethaniel: Outside force and this analogy I mean.

Wol Euler: the outside force that _might_ come along and guide our lives in a beneficial direction, showing us the proper and decent way to [whatever], will not do so! It doesn't actually care whether we do that or not.

Wol Euler: life administers lessons, sure, but they are few and usually painful ones.

Gaya Ethaniel lisens.

Wol Euler: [1:51] Wol Euler: the real goal was this idea that something outside of me can come along and change my life _for_ me, that I do not need to do the work

Wol Euler: that's the key, and IMHO it explains a lot of unhappiness and confusion.

Gaya Ethaniel: mhm

Wol Euler: we change our own lives, else they do not change.

Wol Euler: one might say "I cannot become a poet because I need my day job to pay the rent" but the ugly fact is that they would still not become a poet if they won the lottery

Wol Euler: and for what it's worth, Wallace Stevens ran an insurance company and TS Eliot worked in a bank :)

Gaya Ethaniel nods.

Gaya Ethaniel: This definitely links to what we talked about a lot, motivation.

Wol Euler: "being" versus "becoming"

Wol Euler: lottery ticket buyers want to be something wihtout the effort of becoming it

Wol Euler: motivation is the key to putting in that effort to become [whatever]

Gaya Ethaniel nods.

Wol Euler: and that brings us back to strict versus playful again.

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes

The connection between success and effort.

Wol Euler: there's a common theory going around, that it takes you 10 thousand hours of effort to become [whatever]

Wol Euler: a violinist, or a programmer, or fluent in Swedish.

Gaya Ethaniel: How long is that in years?

Wol Euler: one might quibble about whether the 10k is really 8.7 but that seems beside the point.

Wol Euler: it equates to a longish university course, about four years of daily intensive work

Gaya Ethaniel: ok

Wol Euler: *course of study I mean, four years of all-day-long.

*(My mental calculation was off by a bit. 10k hours equates to five years of 40-hour weeks.)*

Gaya Ethaniel: mhm

Gaya Ethaniel: Well it depends but it's something to aim for I guess.

Wol Euler: if your movitation is based on strictness, on self-discipline applied from outside, then my bet is that you will not make it to the end of that time.

Gaya Ethaniel: Very likely yes.

Wol Euler: if your motivation is playful, if you are doing [whatever] because you love it, then it'll be a cinch, the time will pass without you noticing that it does.

Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry - highly unlikely no [English is confusing >.<]

Wol Euler: heheheh

Just do it.

Gaya Ethaniel: I've tried both and the best outcome is I just do it ...

Gaya Ethaniel: Play has its limits.

Wol Euler: sure

Wol Euler: what does "just do it" mean though?

Gaya Ethaniel: I don't know ... it's quite recent thing I've discovered.

Gaya Ethaniel: It's not an urge yet not something of a rule/schedule that I follow.

Wol Euler: so you "just do it" when the mood strikes, when you are feeling like X-ing?

Gaya Ethaniel: I think I'm finding the middle ground maybe, not entirely sure.

Wol Euler: yep.

Wol Euler: you are proving that play <-> strict is a slider not an on /off switch.

Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... it's not specific mood, I just feel I need to do something else than what I am doing.

Wol Euler: :)

Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok

Gaya Ethaniel: I will read this log again later and think some more I think :)

Gaya Ethaniel: Has been really useful thank you Wol :)

Wol Euler smiles.

Wol Euler: you're welcome, I'm glad.

Wol Euler: it was good for me too, gaya. Thank you for asking, I hadn't thought about this seriously before.

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Wol Euler: really :)

Wol Euler: this is why the best teachers became teachers: to learn.

Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)

Wol Euler: the best way to understand something, is by trying to explain it.

Gaya Ethaniel: You did a very good job of it :)

Wol Euler smiles. Thank you!

Gaya Ethaniel: Have a good day then Wol and see you soon :)

Wol Euler: bye gaya, enjoy the day.

Wol Euler: thanks for the conversation!

Gaya Ethaniel smiles and waves.

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