2009.07.05 13:00 - Symmetry, choice and beyond

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    This interesting discussion begins with evidence of my not being 'up to date' with all the guardians, and this began the thread of keeping up amidst the busyness we all experience, and the multiple threads of communication many of us have going. The threads further meandered into the many strands of global communication, eg Twitter, the possible evolving authority structures given this near-global instant communication, the problems, paradoxes regarding choice, views about the global trends (eg 'flat' vs spikey) and beyond. (various websites cited ).

      When I arrived Eliza was there and we were soon joined by Qt.

    Maxine Walden: helllo, Qt, care to join us?
    Qt Core: hi Eliza, Maxine
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine, Qt
    Maxine Walden: Qt. not sure we have met, have you been coming to these play as being meetings?
    Qt Core: yes, many times, and i'm a guardian too (even if i don't have a slot)
    Maxine Walden: I am very sorry; did not mean to slight you, just have not been staying aware of some of the folks ...
    Qt Core: np, i didn't met many others guardian, time zone issues don't help ;-)
    Maxine Walden: yes, so many different times/zones which make it difficult to meet everyone...
    Qt Core: publishing the chat logs helps about that and about busy life too
    Maxine Walden: yes, it does...
    Wol Euler: hello maxine, qt, eliza
    Maxine Walden: hi, Wol
    Qt Core: hi Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol
    Maxine Walden: We were talking about keeping up with everyone in PaB, stemming from my not being familiar with Qt as a guardian
    Wol Euler: heheh, tricky
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
    Qt Core: (i don't even use the title a lot.... well almost never)
    Maxine Walden: and I begwn to wonder about the topic of divergence/convergence...so many trajectories
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Wol Euler: (I seem to have put my hand down in sommething sticky, brb)
    Qt Core: hi Pila
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pila
    Eliza Madrigal: intersting idea Maxine
    Maxine Walden: we each have such busy lives and come from such diverse backgrounds, time zones, etc. It is quite something that we come togehter as much as we do...and then there is my just-now example of not being so aware of Qt as an example of that coming together not always being steadfast
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick
    Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
    Maxine Walden: hi, Mick,
    Qt Core: hi mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Eliza,Pila,Maxine ,Qt
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
    Wol Euler: back
    Wol Euler: hello mick, pila
    Pila Mulligan: wb
    Qt Core: just thinking about how many way we may "tag" yourself and all the universe around us and how many groups and subgroups we can make is mind blowing
    Qt Core: ourselves
    Maxine Walden: agree, Qt...
    Eliza Madrigal: It seems to be the wave...people trying to stay in contact with as many people as possible at a time.. ala twitter, facebook, etc. For me this pace and depth is mostly comfortable
    Maxine Walden: just aware during this pause of Eliza's mention, the pace of
    Maxine Walden: being so in touch with others...and maybe
    Maxine Walden: behind that 'pace' at least for some of us
    Qt Core: being not very social in rl whiy i should i be so social in sl (at large) a little more, ok, but twitter is really too much
    Maxine Walden: might be the anxiety of being absent-minded as I was with Qt just now
    Pila Mulligan: it has been only a century or so since the industrial revolution scattered us from more cohesive extended families and real in-touch communities, and during that time our nature surely missed the previous well-established close contact with many people, so now Twitter fills in for osme of what was missing
    Pila Mulligan: but we are no doubt doingit at a supersonic pace
    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.theonion.com/content/news...ator_on_iran_i
    Qt Core: i love/hate the onion, i usually come to it via stumbleupon and before noticing it is the onion i get very angry for what i read... they are very good :-)

    I have just crashed and returned so missed a bit of the previous chat and folks fill me in.

    Wol Euler: wb maxine
    Maxine Walden: thanks, talk about coming and going...
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Maxine Walden: you know, I don't know what the onion is...may be revealing...
    Pila Mulligan: it is irony, a joke
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tarmel!
    Maxine Walden: thanks Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
    Maxine Walden: hi, Tarmel
    Eliza Madrigal: This kind of Onion article rings so close...surely not all of them do :)
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Everyone!
    Qt Core: a great ironic "news" website
    Pila Mulligan: they write humorous but fake news stories
    Maxine Walden: ah...
    Pila Mulligan: such as : Greenpeace Decides Northern Spotted Owl 'Not Worth The Trouble Anymore'
    Wol Euler: hello tarmel
    Maxine Walden: I see, got it, I think...
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Tarmel
    Qt Core: hi tamel
    Maxine Walden: dipping into the slightly cynical at times?
    Qt Core: just a bit.... like everest bit
    Pila Mulligan: earlier Eliza posted a link to this one: Twitter Creator On Iran: 'I Never Intended For Twitter To Be Useful'
    Mickorod Renard: hi Ara
    Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
    Maxine Walden: hi Ara
    Eliza Madrigal: I payed attention to Twitter during the election, and recently for Iran coverage a bit...not more than that though.
    arabella Ella: hiya everyone
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Ara
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    Qt Core: hi ara
    Eliza Madrigal: I heard about SL through Twitter during the election :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Ara :)
    Wol Euler: well done, ara, we are symmetrical again :)
    Mickorod Renard: I never look at any of these things except sl
    arabella Ella: :)
    Maxine Walden: contemplative pause...?
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Pila Mulligan: I was contemplating last weeks term 'herd-wired'
    Qt Core: ops, sorry
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Maxine Walden: interesting association, Pila
    Mickorod Renard: here we talk about the mob
    Pila Mulligan: humans have a tribal nature
    Mickorod Renard: I guess it would be mob wired
    Maxine Walden: indeed, very basic...yes, mob-wired!
    Maxine Walden: seems we have to work hard to overcome that herd/mob-wiring
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Pila Mulligan: and at the same time not fall into chaos, since the mob is now using porinted circuits
    Pila Mulligan: somewhere between anarchy and what we have is a nice place
    Pila Mulligan: maybe :)
    Mickorod Renard: maybe it will have undercurrents like what happened in the uk in the late 1600's
    Maxine Walden: oh, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: when printing became available to the mob
    Mickorod Renard: I think politics had to be re-invented
    Mickorod Renard: no longer could the ruling class pull the wool over the eyes of the masses
    Wol Euler frowns
    Maxine Walden: so everyman emerged as a force to be reckoned with?
    Qt Core: direct democracy via the Net ?
    Mickorod Renard: just thinking of the similarities
    Mickorod Renard: world free information
    Maxine Walden: giving the voice of the individual more potency, more sturdiness?
    Mickorod Renard: I think the problem will be determining what is true and what is false now
    Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
    Wol Euler: hello adams
    Qt Core: hi adams
    arabella Ella: hiya Adama
    Adams Dubrovna: hello everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Adams
    Pila Mulligan: you made Wol happy Adams
    Adams Dubrovna: ?
    Pila Mulligan: seating now 3:3:3
    Pila Mulligan: symmetry
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: well its certainly made us more global, and information is shared but I wonder whether the herd mentality has changed?
    Mickorod Renard: I dont think that will ever change
    Tarmel Udimo: do we still just read and engage with topics we like
    Qt Core: i think not, maybe it is even worse as you have the monitor to hide behind
    arabella Ella: sources of authority are in the process of changing i think
    Tarmel Udimo: has it broadened our persepctives?
    Mickorod Renard: how do u mean Ara?
    arabella Ella: both broadened and narrowed our perspectives
    arabella Ella: well today we take journalists to be super truth heros for example
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Adams Dubrovna: do we?
    arabella Ella: like one of my theories at the moment
    Tarmel Udimo: not me:)
    arabella Ella: borrowed from thomas friedman and richard florida
    arabella Ella: the world is both flat and the world is spiked
    arabella Ella: flat- interconnected
    arabella Ella: spiked - creative industries, creative clusters within one geo area
    Tarmel Udimo: OK
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Gaya
    Mickorod Renard: history repeats all the time,,I recon we will just see a change similar to that seen in the past
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Gaya
    Wol Euler: hello gaya
    Maxine Walden: hi, Gaya
    Qt Core: hi gaya
    arabella Ella: hiya gaya
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi gaya
    Maxine Walden: nice to see you
    Gaya Ethaniel: Long time no see indeed Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
    Tarmel Udimo: that's interesting Ara, so a world of duality manifested in this theory
    Adams Dubrovna: I personally know more people from all over the globe than I ever did before
    Maxine Walden: hello, Shyama, care to join us?
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Shyama :)
    Mickorod Renard: hi Shy
    Adams Dubrovna: Hel;o again Shyama
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Shyama
    Pila Mulligan: hi Shyama
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Shyama :)
    arabella Ella: well I think that saying simply that the world is flat - all interconnected - although correct is a bit too much of a simplification
    arabella Ella: and the same applies to Florida's The World is Spiked
    Maxine Walden: how so, Ara?
    arabella Ella: so I think we should look at things as overlapping and criss crossing not simply as dichotomies that never meet
    Mickorod Renard: the world is flat insomuch as the universe is bent
    Qt Core: nice topic but RL is calling, bye all
    Pila Mulligan: bye Qt
    arabella Ella: bye Qt
    Maxine Walden: thanks for coming QT
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Qt
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt
    Mickorod Renard: bye qt
    Tarmel Udimo: bye Qt
    Tarmel Udimo: found this article, is this the one you referred to Ara: http://www.longtail.com/the_long_tai...d_florida.html
    Maxine Walden: interweaving...as an interconnected web?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Qt :)
    arabella Ella: yes it is Tarmel
    arabella Ella: altho i had not seen this in Wired before
    Tarmel Udimo: opr perhaps this: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...of-spikes.html
    arabella Ella: and the conclusions were my own
    arabella Ella: thanks Tarmel those links are certainly very useful to me
    Eliza Madrigal: We have greater access...but also a flood of information to filter...so the effect can be the same in that some will actually narrow their choices...news channels which tell one side, etc
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Maxine Walden: interesting, Eliza. Our human limits often seem to create a narrowing...
    Maxine Walden: of perspective...
    Eliza Madrigal: we can retreat to what is 'comfortable' perhaps
    Maxine Walden: amidst the plethora, as if we cannot embrace it all
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: I do think we are more pourous in general though...must work harder to narrow
    Mickorod Renard: sometime ago we discussed how choice is actually a problem for us
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: cant remember what we said
    Tarmel Udimo: can we embrace it all? perhaps we feel we should with all that access, but our choices help us to limit things
    Tarmel Udimo: to not be overwhelmed
    Maxine Walden: was there anything about being plagued by doubt about what we choose? tyranny of doubt?
    Tarmel Udimo: as long as we don't get stuck I guess:)
    Wol Euler points to the word "should" in tarmel's sentence, and raises an eyebrow
    arabella Ella: learning not to be overwhelmed is ... sounds like ... one of the new skills to be learnt for the 21 st century
    Mickorod Renard: I think this is where the herd or mob comes in,,people look for guidance,,because the coice is too dificult
    Pila Mulligan: I can't help thinking of General Motors and California, two icons of a (recent) former time -- when they were rich and diverse, before they became bankrupt -- now what will they become?
    Pila Mulligan: what are thier choices?
    Maxine Walden: good point, Ara, to remain aware of our human limits, perhaps?
    Eliza Madrigal: agreed, Ara
    arabella Ella: well about choice there is an excellent video by a psychologist on www.ted.com unfortunately i cannot recall the name
    arabella Ella: and he says that when we have too much choice we just end of defaulting and not choosing at all
    arabella Ella: this is related to marketing and for example supermarket selection
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i may have seen it
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah...rather like the theory of happiness
    Mickorod Renard: ahhh,for the simple life
    arabella Ella: happiness?
    Eliza Madrigal: You listen to a favorite piece of music... rate it a 10... then a second piece, rate it also a 10
    Wol Euler: maybe Barry Schwarz, "the paradox of choice"? http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ba...of_choice.html
    Maxine Walden: one point about too much choice is that we cannot hold many things in mind which require substantial thought...just get mind weary
    Eliza Madrigal: but together at same time... not 10...not 5...
    Adams Dubrovna: We have a simple life if we want
    Adams Dubrovna: just have to grab it
    Eliza Madrigal: the way we listen to the music is the thing, yes
    Adams Dubrovna: or fall into it :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: yes Wol that is it
    arabella Ella: the paradox of choice
    Tarmel Udimo: yes we feel we "should' be able to hold it all and make all the right choices but I don'tr think we can Wol
    Tarmel Udimo: nods at Ara
    arabella Ella: something else related which i just got hold of but which i hhave not yet had time to read is
    Shyama Sheryffe: dont we choose what we feel unconsiouxly and ratinalize it afterwards
    arabella Ella: malcolm gladwell's 'the outliers'
    arabella Ella: has anyone here read that book yet?
    Gaya Ethaniel: When there are lots of choices, there isn't much difference between them I think.
    Eliza Madrigal: This idea I heard in an interview from an author writing about happiness...resonated with me how we give attention matters. A new skill indeed...perhaps mindfulness helps :)
    Mickorod Renard: the coices we are alowed are given us by those who hold the power anyway,,I am sure its an illusion
    arabella Ella: /nods to Eliza
    Adams Dubrovna: no one has the power over what we are
    Wol Euler: surely that is your own point, mick? that the twitterers and their readers take back that power
    Wol Euler: by circumventing "official" mass distribution
    arabella Ella: but Adams ... we live in communities with other people to who we are responsible ... is any one of us 100 percent autonomous?
    Maxine Walden: This may be another area where awareness of our human limits can actually help us out, re the 'shoulds' about choice
    Mickorod Renard: thats the general picture,,but how much choice is metred out on purpose
    Adams Dubrovna: It is not about being autonomous
    Adams Dubrovna: we just need to be what we are
    Adams Dubrovna: the world is the same as it has always been
    arabella Ella: ok i see ... and no one can control my thoughts :)
    arabella Ella: (or so i hope)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Maxine Walden: Sorry to 'interrupt': About to go and I need to say that I am going to be away for the next 3 Sundays at this time, and so cannot be GOC. Perhaps someone could either send me the autologger or post the chatlog, which is so easy thanks to Wol and Fael.
    Mickorod Renard: yes they do Ara
    arabella Ella: (or can they?)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: I would offer but I won't be here either :(
    Maxine Walden: See you all in a few weeks...
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Maxine. Good to see you today :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun Maxine :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Maxine
    Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care, have a great time
    Maxine Walden: bye all
    arabella Ella: enjoy mazine
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Maxine. have a good time away :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye Maxine
    Eliza Madrigal: I must go also
    Adams Dubrovna: and me too
    Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Eloiza and everyone :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: Same here :) Enjoy your day/night.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone :)
    Wol Euler: ara, somebody who offers you a choice between red and orange, and prevents you from noticing that green and blue exist too, is controlling your choices
    Mickorod Renard: bye Gaya
    Tarmel Udimo: bye all
    Wol Euler: bye gaya, adams, eliza
    Wol Euler: take care.
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye Eliza and all
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Mickorod Renard: bye Tarmel
    arabella Ella nods to Wol
    Wol Euler: tarmel, are you going?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Fonz
    Wol Euler: hello fef
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fef
    Pila Mulligan: Gandhi said (70 years ago) that social organization (i.e., government) should first deal with the necessities: assuring healthy food, clothes and clean housing for everyone, and fair pensions for retired people -- and if that was done then the rest of what was needed would follow naturally
    Fefonz Quan: (Hi All)
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Fefonz
    arabella Ella: hiya Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Pila, that means the US government is not a social organization...
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi Fefonz
    Wol Euler: many would not disagree, fef :)
    Wol Euler: at least it wasn't during hte last 8 yrs.
    Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure anyone has accomplished Gandhi's ideal yet
    Pila Mulligan: maybe the shakers :)
    arabella Ella: there was an interesting interview by Riz Khan on CNN today
    arabella Ella: on Aid and Africa and whether Aid is good or bad for Africa
    arabella Ella: as Aid allows governments to neglect necessities taken care of by aid agencies
    Mickorod Renard: bye guys,,xx
    Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
    Tarmel Udimo: bye Mick
    arabella Ella: bye Mick
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye Mick
    Wol Euler: ah, missed him.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: be back in a sec
    arabella Ella: i must go too
    arabella Ella: bye everyone
    Fefonz Quan: bye Ara
    Wol Euler: bye ara, goodngiht and sleep well
    Shyama Sheryffe: me too, nite all
    Wol Euler: bye shyama, take care
    Fefonz Quan: concerning Social organizations, it reminded me somehow, that the other day the issue of Ian Rand arose here (guess i mispell it)
    Wol Euler: Ayn Rand? objectivism?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, Ayn Rand. So i've read a little about her, and it turns out in the early seventies there was a tight group fo followers that she organized.
    Fefonz Quan: discussing her philosophy etc.
    Fefonz Quan: and one of the major (and most known today) participants was - Alan Grinspan, the previous FED Manager
    Pila Mulligan: Ayn Rand ranks right up there with BF Skinner in my museum of misguided people
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Fefonz Quan: somehow i found that not so accidental. looks like a strait line between her views and the major causes for teh last crisis.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: not particularly compassionate
    Fefonz Quan: particularly not actualy
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Pila Mulligan: hi Nymf
    Wol Euler: hello nymf
    Fefonz Quan: think i'll be on my way, didn't manage to get here earlier, and its good to se you even for a while.
    Nymf Hathaway: sorry Pila :) good day everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
    Pila Mulligan: np
    Pila Mulligan: bye Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: bye Wol, Pila, Nemf
    Fefonz Quan: Nymf
    Nymf Hathaway: Bye Fefonz, hello Tarmel :)
    Pila Mulligan: unless you are staying, even better :)
    Fefonz Quan: Tarmel :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
    Wol Euler: wb tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: back again, thought it was Stim's workshop
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: are they still going Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Tarmel, and still interesting
    Tarmel Udimo: great any transcripts
    Tarmel Udimo: I have been out of touch for the last couple of weeks
    Pila Mulligan: yes, on their wiki -- just a sec
    Tarmel Udimo: Eliza mentioned something about starting up another one?
    Pila Mulligan: well, there is a spin-off discussion group of some participants from Stim's workshop meeting now
    Pila Mulligan: kind of a discussion of the discussion :)
    Pila Mulligan: Gaya organized it
    Tarmel Udimo: oh maybe that was the one she was mentioning and what's that?
    Wol Euler: is that the Homework crew?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: transcripts: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/4Transcripts
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks Pila
    Pila Mulligan: I went to the first one, but I was uncomfortable discussing Stim's topics without his gudiance there
    Pila Mulligan: too easy to make mistakes or digress
    Tarmel Udimo: nods understand, how does Stim feel about it?
    Pila Mulligan: i don't know
    Pila Mulligan: btw: Nymf's Science Circle July 2009 Presentation "Virtual World Using OpenSim" by Darkeagle Darkstone 1130am SLT Tuesday 7 July 2009
    Pila Mulligan: Nymf: threedee, one of the PaB folks, has a company that has an Open SIm running full time
    Tarmel Udimo: yes got it, will have to set the alarm for 4:30am:)
    Pila Mulligan: place: ô€€€
    Nymf Hathaway: woops Tarmel :(
    Pila Mulligan: the URL of the place didnot paste :)
    Nymf Hathaway: I have been on Darkeagles grid...but it will take a while untill I will be a citizen
    Pila Mulligan: yes, just 8:30 am here :)
    Pila Mulligan: what do they have there?
    Pila Mulligan: on Darkeagles grid?
    Nymf Hathaway: He gave his students the assignement to build and develp...and that shows... some are inspiraional but most experimental...a lot doesn't work as we know it in sl etc
    Nymf Hathaway: develop
    Nymf Hathaway: Maybe we are spoiled in here :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Nymf Hathaway: Which url didn't work Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: I think Threedees is more aimed at commercial ends, but I amnot sure
    Pila Mulligan: the Nture site, I tried to post where the presentation will be
    Pila Mulligan: earlier in this caht
    Nymf Hathaway: strange
    Nymf Hathaway: I will correct it of course
    Pila Mulligan: it is not an error in the note card, it was jst that in trying to cut it from the notecard to paste here, the paste did ont work -- the URL is probably fine :)
    Nymf Hathaway: okay
    Pila Mulligan: I'm going to see if I can take Nymf to meet Threedee, Tarmel and Wol
    Pila Mulligan: bye bye for now
    Nymf Hathaway: Needs to do some things before she logs off today, Tarmel & Wol have a nice time :)
    Wol Euler: bye, take care. good luck!
    Tarmel Udimo: bye
    Wol Euler: you too, enjoy the rest ofhte day
    Tarmel Udimo: bye Pila
    Wol Euler: bye pila, take care
    Wol Euler: bye tarmel, take care
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