2009.07.06 13:00 - Compassion

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim
    Stim Morane: Hi Scathach
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello gaya
    Stim Morane: hi Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath and Stim :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you mind me lowering the fountain?
    Stim Morane: fine with me
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are you both today?
    Stim Morane: fine, thanks. And you ?
    Scathach Rhiadra: fine thank you:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good thanks you :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stim is a puff of bright cloud on my screen ...
    Stim Morane: how did I manage that?
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, I can see him
    Gaya Ethaniel: I must be lagging *shrug*
    Scathach Rhiadra: if you zoom in on him, it may help
    Gaya Ethaniel: nah, it's ok. It's just as mesmerising.
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: yes, i must admit i find these cloud-avatars quite distracting
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's nice though in a way :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: A simpler image ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stim I read a log where Pema quotes you on compassion and have a question about it.
    Stim Morane: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I can't find the actual log ... anyway, real compassion is to know that no one needs help. There was no further discussion on it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... I wonder if you could expand on that. Did you mean that each one of us is capable of 'helping' ourselves or ... ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: There is no 'problems' ... ?
    Stim Morane: no, sorry ... i didn't mean to suggest that.
    Stim Morane: I think this is a fragment of a longer discussion. For now, I could just say that real compassion is not an emotion or any other product of the ordinary mind.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza, Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza and Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Gaya Stim eliza scath
    Stim Morane: hi eliza, mick
    Stim Morane: it is inseparable from a kind of "seeing" that appreciates other beings' difficulties, but ALSO sees that in some particularly important sense, the beings are still OK.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: if you don't see the latter, the former isn't enough to qualify as com
    Stim Morane: *compassion
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Tarmel
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why seeing the latter so important? Some situations can be pretty bad ... but I guess it is important to have that overall frame of mind?
    Mickorod Renard: compassion is a beautiful word
    Eliza Madrigal: Is the discussion emapthy v. compassion?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tarmel :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tarmel :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Tarmel!
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi There All!
    Stim Morane: We're talking about "compassion".
    Tarmel Udimo: ty you
    Stim Morane: there's no reason to push one traditional view over more familiar, conventional ones.
    Stim Morane: But if we were talking about the Buddhist view, it would end up like what I said.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Stim Morane: The reason is that you can't help other beings in the truest sense, i.e. to wake up, if you don't see that they already have an enlightened nature. 'Help' means 'helping them appreciate what they are'
    Mickorod Renard: Stim,,did you say something re compassion beore you said;-V
    Mickorod Renard: Stim Morane: it is inseparable from a kind of "seeing" that appreciates other beings' difficulties, but ALSO sees that in some particularly important sense, the beings are still OK.
    Stim Morane: otherwise you just end up putting bandaids on peoples' problems.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Let me make a nc - one moment ...
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    Tarmel Udimo: I think sometimes we confuse compassion with doing good
    Tarmel Udimo: ty Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: So the heart of compassion is knowing the true nature of beings and responding to that, whether in ourselves or others, rather than what seems to be?
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Gaya
    Stim Morane: It's like the old adage that it's better to teach people how to feed themselves, than to give them a little food.
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Stim Morane: Here the point is that if you help them appreciate why they are OK, they can hold that in the midst of all life's ups and downs. Otherwise, you can perk them up a bit on one occasion, but then they get distressed again in another situation.
    Gaya Ethaniel: My pleasure :)
    Stim Morane: So compassion then is to fully 'feel with' others, meaning feeling both their distress and their ever-present 'salvation'.
    Stim Morane: So you can show them the latter and how to hold it.
    Tarmel Udimo: in the hope they will accept this - often people are not ready to give up the crisis they are in:)
    Mickorod Renard: do you think there are some people capable of relieving others distress,through a form of compassion
    Stim Morane: yes, Tarmel ... it's a tough sell sometimes
    Stim Morane: sure, Mick. But that compassion involves "showing", even education.
    Tarmel Udimo: the best form of compassion then is to truely be onesself
    Mickorod Renard: education can be just showing that you are connected to their feeling of distress,,and that you are there for them?
    Stim Morane: yes, that's actually true ... but that "self" is the "self with and for others"
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
    Wol Euler: hello invisibles, sorry I'm late
    Stim Morane: this was directed to Tarmel
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Wol
    Stim Morane: Hi wol
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Wol
    Stim Morane: Mick, I guess education can be many things. I was thinking in a traditional way, perhaps not necessary for our present purposes.
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Stim Morane: Wol, are those feathers in you hair?
    Wol Euler: no, I'm not quite sure what htey are :) cyberornaments, or attachment points for my union wiht the Borg
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: I see, yes. I should have known.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Wol Euler: mechanical rasta-locks :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Resistance is futile!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
    Mickorod Renard: I remember a few years ago going through a period where I felt very sensitive and compassionate about peoples plight,,it was quite a nice period,,although traumatic,,but now I feel i have become cold again
    Fefonz Quan: greetings all :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Fef
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fef :)
    Wol Euler: hello fefonz
    Stim Morane: The kind of 'compassion' I was referring to would pop up even when you, the self, are feeling cold.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Last night I was reading about the heart sutra, and actually a biblical reference floated up about "guarding one's heart with all dilligence for out of it spring the issues of life" Hearing that anew, with an appreciation of cultivation of the heart, rather than guarding, was really nice... quite helpful in thinking about compassion.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Stim Morane: hi Yakuzza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Ya :))
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza
    Fefonz Quan: hey Yaku
    Stim Morane: brb
    Eliza Madrigal: For me it just meant "be ready"
    Mickorod Renard: still trying to work that one out eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: bcak
    Eliza Madrigal: It may have resonance for no one else but me..as happens surely..hehe
    Stim Morane: *back
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks ... being ready ... interesting.
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb Stim :)
    Mickorod Renard: maybe,,but again, I wonder whether my coldness has become a blinker on what i may have been more sensitive too
    Fefonz Quan: i find it somehow difficult to connect the heart sutra directly to compassion though
    Stim Morane: no, Eliza, it's a very interesting point ... cultivating rather than guarding.
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought that in that line, issues, means Wisdom/Virtue...seeing through things to the heart.
    Stim Morane: Yes, that sutra isn't about compassion primarily
    Stim Morane: yes, Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: maybe the mind and the heart need to be open and welcoming to seeing?
    Eliza Madrigal: Tarmel, that just seems the way to connect with that sense of what we and others truly are... to act with compassion beyond 'thinking'
    Tarmel Udimo: Just found a little para about compassion that talks about the approach you mentioned before Stim
    Stim Morane: ?
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry Eliza was busy looking for this
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, no worries. :) I'd intended to sit quietly today..heh
    Tarmel Udimo: opps now i have to give it out - :)
    Fefonz Quan: yep :)
    Tarmel Udimo: a bit slow please keep talking
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm curious about this bit - [13:18] Tarmel Udimo: in the hope they will accept this - often people are not ready to give up the crisis they are in:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why would anyone want to stay within crisis?
    Stim Morane: yes, the account is right.
    Mickorod Renard: ty tarmel
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
    Wol Euler: ty tarmel
    Eliza Madrigal: TY Tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty
    Fefonz Quan: thanks tarmel, nice paragraph
    Fefonz Quan: Because in going out of the crisis they might loose something they cherish more, Gaya
    Tarmel Udimo: I found it inspiring because it takes the pressure off being perfect and in fact just doing what is needed
    Wol Euler: being in a crisis can be comforting in a way, it gives you a defined role and an unassailable reason for acting the way you do
    Tarmel Udimo: yes sorry Gaya, often I find people (including myself) can only see so much)
    Mickorod Renard: thats a very nice way of identifying with compassion,,thanks
    Fefonz Quan: I liked the notion that you can care for others suffering without making yourself suffer too.
    Tarmel Udimo: and it would mean having to change, yes Wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: Probably can help better if the helper isn't suffering I guess.
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Fef... yes can you help if you merely jump in?
    Fefonz Quan nods to Gaya
    Tarmel Udimo: well but we do
    Gaya Ethaniel: Wol, I don't quite understand what you said.
    Gaya Ethaniel reads again ... sorry.
    Eliza Madrigal: Great note, thank you
    Gaya Ethaniel: It can reinforce the way one lives you mean?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Justify?
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Wol Euler: in the way that people get used to being in hospital
    Mickorod Renard: I think its very good,,but one has to be observant to notice someone is in dificulties,,when one cant help there is a risk of feeling unhelpful
    Tarmel Udimo: in the way that people get used to be who they are or think they are, we spend alot of time upholding that
    Tarmel Udimo: well that's because you are attached to the outcome Mick
    Mickorod Renard: yes perhaps
    Fefonz Quan: Mick, maybe any compassionate interaction with the one suffers can help, even if we don't change the objective reality for him?
    Mickorod Renard: I am content that in my past i have,,proberbly by chance,,managed to provide a positive outcome..maybe the by chance has just been the positive offer
    Tarmel Udimo: and often we may not be there to witness this
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Pema
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey pema
    Fefonz Quan: it is very interesting to see how much we think of ourselves when coming to help others
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Pema!
    Tarmel Udimo: Hey its Pema!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    Wol Euler: hello pema
    Stim Morane: pema
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
    Pema Pera: (just woke up, it's 5:45 am here)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema :)
    Tarmel Udimo: its 6:45am here :P
    Fefonz Quan: maybe that's what Stim meant when he said that acting from the 'self' brings some limits to compassion
    Mickorod Renard: there was a time when in offering help there seemed to be a consiousness of cost,,but y best observations are that of when I found that I felt no personal loss,,or risk of loss in offering help..which fortunately is still present in me
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Stim Morane: hi arabella
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya ara
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
    Fefonz Quan: hi Arabella
    Mickorod Renard: Hi ara
    Tarmel Udimo: hi ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella and Arisia :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Ara!
    Mickorod Renard: nice scratch of the back
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    Tarmel Udimo: I think if we are seeing clearly what needs to happen (and sometines its best to do nothing) is there a cost?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe one should think twice if there is a need to feel that there is a cost,,maybe that is not a virtuous offer of help?
    Tarmel Udimo: does it need to be virtuous?
    Mickorod Renard: no, spose not
    Stim Morane: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Wol Euler: wb pema
    Pema Pera: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: seeing myself of yesteryear, rushing around trying deperately to being helpful and hopefully compassionate:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Personally I have become more reluctant to 'help' over the last year unless it's straight-forward generosity/donation etc.
    Tarmel Udimo: often most people just wanted me to go away
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Fefonz Quan: that can be helpful sometimes indeed :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or sometimes they just want a friendly ear.
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe fefonz:P
    Stim Morane: Speaking of going away, I need to leave a bit early today, to get ready for another meeting ... thanks, everyone!
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Stim, thanks :)
    Fefonz Quan: bye Stim!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Stim :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Stim
    Tarmel Udimo: bye Stim
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Stim
    Stim Morane: Bye
    Wol Euler: bye stim, thank you
    arabella Ella: bye stim
    Tarmel Udimo: how are you Pema?
    Tarmel Udimo: still in Japan?
    Pema Pera: oh fine! I'll have to leave soon too -- to go to the same meeting as Stim :-)
    Pema Pera: yes, in Kyoto
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's difficult for me to see exactly what help people need so I have become more careful in a way.
    Pema Pera: like you. living in "tomorrow"
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun Pema :)
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Wol Euler: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: We are lagging behind :)
    Wol Euler: have a great day, pema
    Pema Pera: thanks, Gaya, and thanks for the notecard -- great discussion today, sorry I couldn't come earlier
    Eliza Madrigal: To me intention matters in some way we can't always factor
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    Eliza Madrigal: so that would be where virtue comes in
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema
    Mickorod Renard: I have to go too,,not the samemeeting.;)
    Tarmel Udimo: bye pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mick
    Pema Pera: Stim really has a way to sum up a life-long teaching in one sentence . . . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Mick :)
    Fefonz Quan: bye Pema, Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Wol Euler: bye mick, pema
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema, Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: He is very good at explaining yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye all :) Thank you
    Pema Pera: bye, everybody!
    Fefonz Quan: will SL ever come with the feature of attaining two places at teh same time?
    Tarmel Udimo: and I am off to play reading, bye all for now:)
    Wol Euler: perhaps soon after RL does?
    Fefonz Quan: bye Eliza, Tarmel
    arabella Ella: bye pema Tarmel
    Wol Euler: bye tarmel, have fun
    Fefonz Quan: yeah rightr Wol!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Fefonz, you can run multiple SL windows heheheh
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: good discussion!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: o good niht everyone :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Tarmel :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Scath are you going too?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, not an elegant solution SW wise Gaya :)
    arabella Ella: sounds like this was a very interesting discussion ... but fraid i must leave now too
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    arabella Ella: nite all
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I need an early night:)
    Fefonz Quan: nite Ara
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night arabella :)
    Wol Euler: 'niht scath, ara
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Scath :)
    Fefonz Quan: night Scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namasté
    Gaya Ethaniel: Eliza was going to say something about intention but left :(
    Wol Euler: remind her next time. I'm sure her intentions were good :)
    Fefonz Quan: the road to paradise is full aith good intentions :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)#
    Fefonz Quan: with*
    Wol Euler: (oh lord, please don't let her be misundesrstood)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I thought the road to hell is paved with good intentions ...
    Fefonz Quan: pam papapam papapam, papapam pam pam pam
    Gaya Ethaniel: She won't :)
    Wol Euler: right :)
    Wol Euler: who wrote that, fef? I can only hear Elvis Costello singing it, but I'm sure he wasn't the author
    Fefonz Quan: yes Gaya i was improvising :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ahhhh
    Fefonz Quan: i can hear him to, i wrote the intrumental line right after it
    Gaya Ethaniel: I am having some issues with 'good' ... "good on its own" - what would this mean?
    Wol Euler: was it the Animals? Eric Burdon?
    Fefonz Quan: i don't know indeed.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, sometimes good is over used
    Wol Euler: sorry gaya, we are doing a music-geek thing :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheheh
    Fefonz Quan: museek
    Gaya Ethaniel laughs!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Think I will log off and cut some slack :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night both :)
    Wol Euler: wikipedia says written for (not by) Nina Simone, most famous recording probably The Animals
    Fefonz Quan: sound grea, if i knew what that mean :)
    Wol Euler: 'night gaya, sleep well, take care. Be good.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: night Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
    Wol Euler: :-)))
    Fefonz Quan: since when having some more-than-average knowledge about something became geekhood?
    Wol Euler: since being above-average became a term of abuse, sometime during Bush's presidency
    Wol Euler: probably about the time that World Wrestling Federation guy became Governor or Michigan and nobody could tell the difference
    Fefonz Quan: well, i agree with the first part, and i think it is much more global than blaming it all on bush
    Wol Euler: true, but blaming it on Bush is so much fun.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, though overused too :)
    Fefonz Quan: today's last 5 min where the fastest population escape i saw here for some time...
    Fefonz Quan: as Stim fled, it stimulated all the others :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: feeling they should follow him, perhaps? IS he running a workshop today?
    Fefonz Quan: no, not today, its on thursday
    Wol Euler: well, I am afraid I too have to get going, I have much to do still before my holiday.
    Wol Euler: I wish you pleasant evening, and a peaceful night
    Fefonz Quan: cool. good night to you too.
    Wol Euler: bye for now
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_

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