2009.07.15 19:00 - Heart, Mind and Self

The Guardian posting this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia, filling in for Stevenaia.

Sylectra Darwin: hi
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Sylectra
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Sylectra Darwin: how are you?
SophiaSharon Larnia: good! Got to lay around all day haha
SophiaSharon Larnia: how are you?
Sylectra Darwin: Excellent :) Me, I was more busy than I really wanted to be.
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Sylectra Darwin: Steven's usually running this meeting, but I am standing in for him.
SophiaSharon Larnia: ooooops
SophiaSharon Larnia: k will give ity back, how do I do that?
Sylectra Darwin: ah well, you're welcome to the duty :)
Sylectra Darwin: don't know
SophiaSharon Larnia: i said id do two days and flaked out on one of them
SophiaSharon Larnia: made sure never do it again
Sylectra Darwin: awww
Sylectra Darwin: That's sweet.
Sylectra Darwin: Well hopefully we'll get a crowd.
SophiaSharon Larnia: no i forgot
SophiaSharon Larnia: you've been here from the beginning too Sylectra
Sylectra Darwin: Yes indeed! But I don't think I have met you, at least not formally.
SophiaSharon Larnia: the time I am here is so variable
SophiaSharon Larnia: in SL
Sylectra Darwin: You have an erratic schedule.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes so down time usually means stop time <grin/>
Sylectra Darwin: Stop as in a good thing?
Sylectra Darwin: Hello Paradise.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes i think so
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Paradise
Paradise Tennant: hello sylectra ..sophia :)
Sylectra Darwin: So you're a fellow guardian too?
Sylectra Darwin: LOL
Paradise Tennant: :))
Paradise Tennant: sorry to be late .. :) what was the topic tonight :)
Sylectra Darwin: I should show up on a day other than Thursday more often!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Paradise, I have been inspired by the way you state things at their heart, I've enjoyed reading the logs
Sylectra Darwin: So far, just erratic schedules - feel free to suggest.
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: hmmm ok .. maybe heart would be a good place to start then
Sylectra Darwin: excellent :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Pila
Sylectra Darwin: Greetings Pila!
Paradise Tennant: walked by a sign today that read .. beauty is the transfiguration of life through love .. made me smile
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Paradise Tennant: hiya pila
Sylectra Darwin: To that I would also say, Beauty is the evidence of life through love.
Sylectra Darwin: I used to fantasize about a world where your inner beauty determined your outer beauty.
Sylectra Darwin: ....as a teen.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Paradise Tennant: lol me too
SophiaSharon Larnia: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye" (sorry I couldn't find it)
Sylectra Darwin: I like that.
Pila Mulligan: yep
Paradise Tennant: lovely
SophiaSharon Larnia: the eye being the mind, i think
Paradise Tennant: yes
Sylectra Darwin: My mom used to call herself Hears with Heart on AIM.
SophiaSharon Larnia: AIM?
Paradise Tennant: :))
Sylectra Darwin: Hey Splash!
Pila Mulligan: hi Splash
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Splashinda
Splashinda Pond: hi everybody
Sylectra Darwin: AOL Instant Messenger.
Sylectra Darwin: Cool outfit, Splash
SophiaSharon Larnia: ahh shouldve known that one
Splashinda Pond: thanks
SophiaSharon Larnia: and your tag too Splash, lol
Splashinda Pond: thanks
SophiaSharon Larnia: you've been here before haven't you Splash?
Sylectra Darwin: My uncle Dave likes to give this speech when he hosts sweat lodges and stuff - "The heart feels what the mind can never know."
Paradise Tennant: interesting uncle :))
Sylectra Darwin: yeah, he's cool.
Paradise Tennant: perhaps .. because in the mind is singular and the heart all encompassing.. the all encompassing being the truer reality :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i got invited to a sweat lodge next week but have to work
Paradise Tennant: oh no!
SophiaSharon Larnia: make a drum and stuff
Paradise Tennant: never been to one ..what is it like
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i only went once, Sylectra can better describe :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: (years ago)
Sylectra Darwin: I would love to make a drum.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes part of the ritual I guess you could say
Sylectra Darwin: Well, a sweat lodge can be very cleansing, not just physically.
Sylectra Darwin: If you are comfortable with the leader of the lodge, it can be a great experience.
Sylectra Darwin: Everybody wears shorts or bathing suits and maybe brings a towel to sit on.
Sylectra Darwin: They cook lava rocks in the fire.
Sylectra Darwin: When it's okay to go in, they invite you to file in and circle around the back, sitting cross legged around the outside.
Sylectra Darwin: They put the rocks in the center of the dome and close the door of the lodge. It's pitch black.
Sylectra Darwin: It starts to get hot right away.
Sylectra Darwin: The ground feels cool.
Sylectra Darwin: The leader then sets your mind by telling you that we are all there to explore our hearts and think and talk.
Sylectra Darwin: There are usually 4 phases, and sometimes there is a brreak in which you can get out and breathe cool air in between.
SophiaSharon Larnia: and your Uncle hosts these :) cool
Sylectra Darwin: Yeah, my mom used to do it with him. It was to benefit those who were in recovery from drug and alcohol abuse.
Sylectra Darwin: I like the part where they sprinkle sage, sweetgrass and other herbs on the rocks.
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Sylectra Darwin: After each person tells a story (if they wish), the leader splashes cool water on the rocks and makes steam.
Sylectra Darwin: You can sing too.
SophiaSharon Larnia: i bet there a lot of energy there
Sylectra Darwin: Rituals can be very good for setting your intentions and exploring your heart.
Paradise Tennant: yes profoundly so
Sylectra Darwin: Oh yeah, lots of good people doing good things.
SophiaSharon Larnia: i wanted to go also to see if i could this differently now
SophiaSharon Larnia: could feel this*
Sylectra Darwin: I think you would, Sophia.
Splashinda Pond: sounds intriguing
Sylectra Darwin: The thing is, if you intend to have a different experience, you will.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Sylectra Darwin: It's very hot. LOL
SophiaSharon Larnia grins
SophiaSharon Larnia: is the mind always singular, and is the heart always all-encompassing
Paradise Tennant: i suspect a little different each time .. because each and every one is constantly changing
Paradise Tennant: hmm
SophiaSharon Larnia: and the individuals taking part
Paradise Tennant: i guess once you reach enlightenment your mind becomes all encompassing ..
Sylectra Darwin: Do you know how, when you do an activity more than a few times, that you can kind of stop feeling wonder about it and focus too much on trivialities like the social drama that can arise?
Paradise Tennant: yes
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Pila Mulligan: :)
Sylectra Darwin: Oddly enough, the community in Ariz that gets together for these lodges apparently gets all swept up in the drama from time to time.
Sylectra Darwin: The reports come back to me from friends and family, and I laugh.
Sylectra Darwin: There is human drama in everything.
SophiaSharon Larnia: I think that is natural, as humans are after all, social human beings
Pila Mulligan: hearts and minds diverging then
Paradise Tennant: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Pila :)
Sylectra Darwin: We think of ourselves as separate from each other, which starts the trouble.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes i see your point
Paradise Tennant: yes drama reinforces the concept of one's "se;f"
Paradise Tennant: *self"
Paradise Tennant: a great reinforcer really
SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
Paradise Tennant: until you are really ready for I suspect nirvana would be dull :)
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: *it
Pila Mulligan: sometimes it can help when ideas are in conflict, so different views get worked out -- the tricky part is how to work out the conflict
Sylectra Darwin: yes, because I think we like to remain attached to our differences.
Pila Mulligan: and working with the ego is part of the work
Paradise Tennant: or accept reality at least our perception of reality is completely subjective .. so no one's outlook is really any less or more valid at least on one level
Sylectra Darwin: Yes, I like that, Paradise. Pila, could you go into more detail?
Pila Mulligan: however, if a group is lost in the woods it can help if the person with the best sense of their bearings is heard by the rest
Pila Mulligan: suppose that person knowing the best route home is shy, and another in the group is overbearing
Paradise Tennant: yes
Pila Mulligan: then the ego play on those levels may strand the group in the woods unecessarily
Paradise Tennant: pretty much all human calamity .. ties into conterproductive .. egoism
Paradise Tennant: *counterproductive
Sylectra Darwin: contra-productive....grin
Sylectra Darwin: consta-productive
Sylectra Darwin: I'm havin some fun with the word variations.
Paradise Tennant: :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: and I cant think of any right now lol
SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting thought Pila
SophiaSharon Larnia: chaosproductive is all i can come up with lol
Paradise Tennant: good one !
Sylectra Darwin: The value of listening is apparent in Pila's example.
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: very much so
Pila Mulligan: think of all the bad ideas and wrong actions it took to get the world economy into its present situation -- much of that must have been the play of bold egos bullying things through over wiser minds
Sylectra Darwin: oh, yes.
Sylectra Darwin: Hello Vajra.
Vajra Radikal: evening everyone
Pila Mulligan: hi Vajra
Paradise Tennant: hiya vajra :)
Splashinda Pond: hi Vajra
Sylectra Darwin: Sophia, welcome back
Pila Mulligan: welcome back SpohiaSharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: gaahh
Sylectra Darwin: We're talking about ego and divisiveness getting in the way of awareness and a sense of togetherness, did I get that right?
Paradise Tennant: :) yes
SophiaSharon Larnia: sounds great
Pila Mulligan: :)
Vajra Radikal: great subject
Vajra Radikal: any insights you may wish to share?
Pila Mulligan: how a loss of reverence allows trivialities and social drama to arise
Sylectra Darwin: oh, I like that, Pila
Sylectra Darwin: I always had trouble with a similar truth, which is that you cannot hold compassion and anger in your heart at the same time. I got it, but had trouble making it apply in my life. Your way of looking at reverence helps.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it is somethjing to consider
Paradise Tennant: yes find it easier if you remember that everyone is a perfect being buddha what ever and what obstructs it is just like fog on a mirror.. never get fussed with the fog :)
Vajra Radikal: i have found that the only way of fighting off anger is by viewing that at the root of your anger there is a valuable lesson to be learned
Vajra Radikal: thus those that anger you are teaching you something and you need to be grateful to them
Sylectra Darwin: Good points, Paradise and Vajra.
Paradise Tennant: they are giving you the opportunity to discipline your mind and open your heart :)
Vajra Radikal: precisely
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, to both, especially together :))
Vajra Radikal: there is a story about atisha having a cook that was extremely exasperating
Vajra Radikal: everyone complained about him and requested atisha to get rid of him
Vajra Radikal: atisha told them that he valued his cook
Sylectra Darwin: I was listening to a podcast on anger that is part of the "Zencast" audio show
Vajra Radikal: for he taught him how to develop patience and tolerance
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
Pila Mulligan: but I've met a few people whose essence seemed more likely to be a 'perfect being monkey'
Sylectra Darwin: hehe, Pila!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Vajra Radikal: lol
Pila Mulligan: if transmigration of souls is a valid idea, we may very well need to be patient with them also
Paradise Tennant: lol monkey fog :))
Pila Mulligan: :)
Vajra Radikal: in buddhism the root of all anger and suffering is ego thus you can never blame someone else for your anger you are the creator of your own demons. In essence this is karma. Then you reach a point where you understand there is no me and them its just us.
SophiaSharon Larnia: so the 'fog' can be related to 'what we are' or 'what we have'?
Paradise Tennant: only what we think we are and what we think we have
Vajra Radikal: the fog derives from perception as it fogs your view of true reality
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Sylectra Darwin: The fog interests me.
Paradise Tennant: what we are is perfection
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: just have to shine the mirror :)
Vajra Radikal: joseph campbell once said that trascendence is that which can no be soiled by words describing it. thus anything that can be described or classified is derived from our own warped perception of being
Nostrum Forder: Hmm
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Nostrum
Vajra Radikal: namaste nostrum
Sylectra Darwin: Hey look, its the fog!
Nostrum Forder: the fog is moving in.
Vajra Radikal: hehehe
Paradise Tennant: :))
Sylectra Darwin: hehe
SophiaSharon Larnia: LOL Sylectra
Sylectra Darwin: nice entrance.
SophiaSharon Larnia: i hoped it wasnt my computer
Sylectra Darwin: Can we be sure of what we're seeing?
Vajra Radikal: anyone care for some tea?
SophiaSharon Larnia: Have you been here before Nostrum?
Nostrum Forder: often
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
Sylectra Darwin: Nos is a fellow guardian, lol
Sylectra Darwin: and bringer of mirth.
SophiaSharon Larnia: omg, ok, I am not here enough then.... :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: sorries
Paradise Tennant: l)) hiya nostrum
SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to go, take care all
Sylectra Darwin: one evening Nostrum drove a bus to the meeting.
Paradise Tennant: good night sophia :0
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh? cool
Splashinda Pond: Bye!
Pila Mulligan: bye SophiaSharon
Sylectra Darwin: ok Sophia, I am not far behind as it's been a long day.
Sylectra Darwin: Nice to talk with you. :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yep :) waves
Vajra Radikal: namaste sophia
Nostrum Forder: I'm an agent of chaos. :)
Splashinda Pond: lol
Sylectra Darwin: My favorite :)
Vajra Radikal: we do love chaos
Paradise Tennant: ahhh cool
Nostrum Forder: I'm also Syl's bedtime alarm. :)
Paradise Tennant: :))
Sylectra Darwin: hehe
Sylectra Darwin: Nite all, it was a pleasure!
Splashinda Pond: bye bye syl
Paradise Tennant: good nite sylectra :))
Pila Mulligan: bye Sylectra, Splash and Nostrum
Vajra Radikal: thanks syl
Splashinda Pond: bye guys
Paradise Tennant: bye splash
Vajra Radikal: no there are no guardians?
Vajra Radikal: any more thoughts on anger and compassion guys?
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Pila Mulligan: hmm, I'm a bit apart but watching -- munching on leftovers
Paradise Tennant: kind of elmental opposites really
Paradise Tennant: :)) me too
Pila Mulligan: rl food :)
Vajra Radikal: hehe
Paradise Tennant: tofu noddles ?
Vajra Radikal: im on a rl diet
Pila Mulligan: no, a this basil-eggplant dish, from a restaurant
Pila Mulligan: yummmmy
Vajra Radikal: thus i can only munch on sl pozza
Paradise Tennant: lol sounds yummy even the sl pizza :)
Pila Mulligan: anger and compassion should not be confused with conflict and compassion
Pila Mulligan: conflict can be necessary
Paradise Tennant: yes
Vajra Radikal: it is
Paradise Tennant: and the most appropriate response
Vajra Radikal: how else can you learn
Pila Mulligan: yep
Vajra Radikal: however not withstanding theory it is very hard to accomplish true detachment from your ego
Pila Mulligan: yes, it can be
Vajra Radikal: ive been at it for 4 years now and still a long way to go
Paradise Tennant: sigh .. I should scoot .. getting late on the east coast .. thank you both .. really enjoyed the discussion
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Paradise, as awlays
Pila Mulligan: bye
Vajra Radikal: same here
Paradise Tennant: and you pila as always .. thanks you vajra :))
Paradise Tennant: good nite :)
Pila Mulligan: what have you been doing for four years Vajra?
Vajra Radikal: trying to practice dharma
Pila Mulligan: ahh
Vajra Radikal: im a radical atheist turned buddhist
Pila Mulligan: interesting
Pila Mulligan: were you something before being a radical atheist?
Vajra Radikal: it actually is quite compatible
Vajra Radikal: i was born a catholic
Pila Mulligan: :)
Vajra Radikal: but an inquisitive mind is quite inconpatible with rome
Pila Mulligan: an inquisitional mind is not
Vajra Radikal: hehe
Pila Mulligan: brb
Vajra Radikal: what about u pila do you follow any spriritual practice or are you a standup filosopher
Pila Mulligan: back
Vajra Radikal: philosopher
Pila Mulligan: I should followup on that pun -- my favorite cousin was a catholic priest, I am not anti-catholic
Pila Mulligan: just seemed a fun pun
Pila Mulligan: I've been doing a chinese meditaion and taichi practice for several decades
Vajra Radikal: no prob
Vajra Radikal: chinese meditation? sort of tao
Pila Mulligan: kind of yes
Pila Mulligan: mostly a simple zen like practice
Pila Mulligan: sitting, breathing
Pila Mulligan: more details than zen though
Pila Mulligan: since it relates to chi, as doe stai chi
Pila Mulligan: as does tai chi*
Vajra Radikal: ok chi gong?
Pila Mulligan: same idea
Vajra Radikal: or something sounding similar
Pila Mulligan: same
Pila Mulligan: chi is like rana in yoga, breathing energy
Pila Mulligan: prana*
Vajra Radikal: yep familiar concept i used to do quite a lot of yoga
Pila Mulligan: )
Pila Mulligan: werent; the breathig exercise helpful :)
Pila Mulligan: I love to do them
Pila Mulligan: gets the enrgy moving
Vajra Radikal: is it popular where u live
Vajra Radikal: not a large chinese community in mexico
Pila Mulligan: somewhat -- I live in a remote area of Hawaii so there is a lot of diversity here
Vajra Radikal: thus very little acces to this
Pila Mulligan: tai chi is popular beyond the limits of the chinese community now, it seems -- there may be some classes near you --but it is just anothe rpractice, not something I'm trying to sell
Pila Mulligan: http://chinesehealth.com/wtcqd/wtcqd..._search.asp=Go
Vajra Radikal: i did try a tai chi practice but it was sort of a scam i will actually try a new joint around the corner of my office
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, the teahcer is important
Pila Mulligan: there a scams everyhwere
Pila Mulligan: I just found that list on Google- I have no idea of its quality
Pila Mulligan: there are several old schools or styles of tai chi named after the families that started them
Pila Mulligan: the oldest is the Yang Style, fromthe Yang family
Pila Mulligan: I do the style from the Wu fmaily, Wu Style
Vajra Radikal: only one school in mexico city
Pila Mulligan: really
Pila Mulligan: surprisng
Vajra Radikal: on the list i mean
Pila Mulligan: on that list, just one, I bet there are many
Vajra Radikal: i found an additional place sponsored by the chinese embassy
Pila Mulligan: nice
Vajra Radikal: will give it a try
Vajra Radikal: thank 4 the link
Pila Mulligan: there is also the Sun Style -- if you ask the teacher what style he teaches and he looks bewildered, be careful :)
Vajra Radikal: will do so and i will come back here to discuss my impressions with you
Pila Mulligan: ok :)
Vajra Radikal: any hel appreciated
Vajra Radikal: help
Pila Mulligan: well, watching a class or two will tell yuo a lot
Pila Mulligan: you should be able to see and feel the competence of the teracher
Pila Mulligan: teacher*
Pila Mulligan: any tai chi practicioner capable of teaching should have a self-evident competence, in ym opinion
Vajra Radikal: how long do the sessions usually last?
Pila Mulligan: maybe an hour or so
Vajra Radikal: ive seen it done usually in the early morning any recommendations on schedule?
Pila Mulligan: I like early morning, I'm 63 years old and it gets my body awake and moving
Pila Mulligan: classes can be any time
Pila Mulligan: but practice in the morinbg is best for me
Vajra Radikal: thanks 4 the advice
Pila Mulligan: the main thing is to really do it if you want it to be of help
Pila Mulligan: like anything, you need to practice to learn it
Vajra Radikal: how ever i do need to get away frim the keys for an hour while i do my excersice
Pila Mulligan: ok, nice to visit with you
Vajra Radikal: as it it late here
Pila Mulligan: yep
Vajra Radikal: thans again
Pila Mulligan: see oyu next tie
Vajra Radikal: namaste
Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe