2009.07.15 19:00 - Heart, Mind and Self

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    The Guardian posting this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia, filling in for Stevenaia.


    Sylectra Darwin: hi
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Sylectra
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: how are you?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good! Got to lay around all day haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how are you?
    Sylectra Darwin: Excellent :) Me, I was more busy than I really wanted to be.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Sylectra Darwin: Steven's usually running this meeting, but I am standing in for him.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ooooops
    SophiaSharon Larnia: k will give ity back, how do I do that?
    Sylectra Darwin: ah well, you're welcome to the duty :)
    Sylectra Darwin: don't know
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i said id do two days and flaked out on one of them
    SophiaSharon Larnia: made sure never do it again
    Sylectra Darwin: awww
    Sylectra Darwin: That's sweet.
    Sylectra Darwin: Well hopefully we'll get a crowd.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no i forgot
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you've been here from the beginning too Sylectra
    Sylectra Darwin: Yes indeed! But I don't think I have met you, at least not formally.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the time I am here is so variable
    SophiaSharon Larnia: in SL
    Sylectra Darwin: You have an erratic schedule.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes so down time usually means stop time <grin/>
    Sylectra Darwin: Stop as in a good thing?
    Sylectra Darwin: Hello Paradise.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes i think so
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: hello sylectra ..sophia :)
    Sylectra Darwin: So you're a fellow guardian too?
    Sylectra Darwin: LOL
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    Paradise Tennant: sorry to be late .. :) what was the topic tonight :)
    Sylectra Darwin: I should show up on a day other than Thursday more often!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Paradise, I have been inspired by the way you state things at their heart, I've enjoyed reading the logs
    Sylectra Darwin: So far, just erratic schedules - feel free to suggest.
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm ok .. maybe heart would be a good place to start then
    Sylectra Darwin: excellent :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Pila
    Sylectra Darwin: Greetings Pila!
    Paradise Tennant: walked by a sign today that read .. beauty is the transfiguration of life through love .. made me smile
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Paradise Tennant: hiya pila
    Sylectra Darwin: To that I would also say, Beauty is the evidence of life through love.
    Sylectra Darwin: I used to fantasize about a world where your inner beauty determined your outer beauty.
    Sylectra Darwin: ....as a teen.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol me too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye" (sorry I couldn't find it)
    Sylectra Darwin: I like that.
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Paradise Tennant: lovely
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the eye being the mind, i think
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Sylectra Darwin: My mom used to call herself Hears with Heart on AIM.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: AIM?
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    Sylectra Darwin: Hey Splash!
    Pila Mulligan: hi Splash
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Splashinda
    Splashinda Pond: hi everybody
    Sylectra Darwin: AOL Instant Messenger.
    Sylectra Darwin: Cool outfit, Splash
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ahh shouldve known that one
    Splashinda Pond: thanks
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and your tag too Splash, lol
    Splashinda Pond: thanks
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you've been here before haven't you Splash?
    Sylectra Darwin: My uncle Dave likes to give this speech when he hosts sweat lodges and stuff - "The heart feels what the mind can never know."
    Paradise Tennant: interesting uncle :))
    Sylectra Darwin: yeah, he's cool.
    Paradise Tennant: perhaps .. because in the mind is singular and the heart all encompassing.. the all encompassing being the truer reality :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i got invited to a sweat lodge next week but have to work
    Paradise Tennant: oh no!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: make a drum and stuff
    Paradise Tennant: never been to one ..what is it like
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i only went once, Sylectra can better describe :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (years ago)
    Sylectra Darwin: I would love to make a drum.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes part of the ritual I guess you could say
    Sylectra Darwin: Well, a sweat lodge can be very cleansing, not just physically.
    Sylectra Darwin: If you are comfortable with the leader of the lodge, it can be a great experience.
    Sylectra Darwin: Everybody wears shorts or bathing suits and maybe brings a towel to sit on.
    Sylectra Darwin: They cook lava rocks in the fire.
    Sylectra Darwin: When it's okay to go in, they invite you to file in and circle around the back, sitting cross legged around the outside.
    Sylectra Darwin: They put the rocks in the center of the dome and close the door of the lodge. It's pitch black.
    Sylectra Darwin: It starts to get hot right away.
    Sylectra Darwin: The ground feels cool.
    Sylectra Darwin: The leader then sets your mind by telling you that we are all there to explore our hearts and think and talk.
    Sylectra Darwin: There are usually 4 phases, and sometimes there is a brreak in which you can get out and breathe cool air in between.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and your Uncle hosts these :) cool
    Sylectra Darwin: Yeah, my mom used to do it with him. It was to benefit those who were in recovery from drug and alcohol abuse.
    Sylectra Darwin: I like the part where they sprinkle sage, sweetgrass and other herbs on the rocks.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: After each person tells a story (if they wish), the leader splashes cool water on the rocks and makes steam.
    Sylectra Darwin: You can sing too.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i bet there a lot of energy there
    Sylectra Darwin: Rituals can be very good for setting your intentions and exploring your heart.
    Paradise Tennant: yes profoundly so
    Sylectra Darwin: Oh yeah, lots of good people doing good things.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i wanted to go also to see if i could this differently now
    SophiaSharon Larnia: could feel this*
    Sylectra Darwin: I think you would, Sophia.
    Splashinda Pond: sounds intriguing
    Sylectra Darwin: The thing is, if you intend to have a different experience, you will.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Sylectra Darwin: It's very hot. LOL
    SophiaSharon Larnia grins
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is the mind always singular, and is the heart always all-encompassing
    Paradise Tennant: i suspect a little different each time .. because each and every one is constantly changing
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and the individuals taking part
    Paradise Tennant: i guess once you reach enlightenment your mind becomes all encompassing ..
    Sylectra Darwin: Do you know how, when you do an activity more than a few times, that you can kind of stop feeling wonder about it and focus too much on trivialities like the social drama that can arise?
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Oddly enough, the community in Ariz that gets together for these lodges apparently gets all swept up in the drama from time to time.
    Sylectra Darwin: The reports come back to me from friends and family, and I laugh.
    Sylectra Darwin: There is human drama in everything.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I think that is natural, as humans are after all, social human beings
    Pila Mulligan: hearts and minds diverging then
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Pila :)
    Sylectra Darwin: We think of ourselves as separate from each other, which starts the trouble.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes i see your point
    Paradise Tennant: yes drama reinforces the concept of one's "se;f"
    Paradise Tennant: *self"
    Paradise Tennant: a great reinforcer really
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: until you are really ready for I suspect nirvana would be dull :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: *it
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes it can help when ideas are in conflict, so different views get worked out -- the tricky part is how to work out the conflict
    Sylectra Darwin: yes, because I think we like to remain attached to our differences.
    Pila Mulligan: and working with the ego is part of the work
    Paradise Tennant: or accept reality at least our perception of reality is completely subjective .. so no one's outlook is really any less or more valid at least on one level
    Sylectra Darwin: Yes, I like that, Paradise. Pila, could you go into more detail?
    Pila Mulligan: however, if a group is lost in the woods it can help if the person with the best sense of their bearings is heard by the rest
    Pila Mulligan: suppose that person knowing the best route home is shy, and another in the group is overbearing
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Pila Mulligan: then the ego play on those levels may strand the group in the woods unecessarily
    Paradise Tennant: pretty much all human calamity .. ties into conterproductive .. egoism
    Paradise Tennant: *counterproductive
    Sylectra Darwin: contra-productive....grin
    Sylectra Darwin: consta-productive
    Sylectra Darwin: I'm havin some fun with the word variations.
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and I cant think of any right now lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting thought Pila
    SophiaSharon Larnia: chaosproductive is all i can come up with lol
    Paradise Tennant: good one !
    Sylectra Darwin: The value of listening is apparent in Pila's example.
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: very much so
    Pila Mulligan: think of all the bad ideas and wrong actions it took to get the world economy into its present situation -- much of that must have been the play of bold egos bullying things through over wiser minds
    Sylectra Darwin: oh, yes.
    Sylectra Darwin: Hello Vajra.
    Vajra Radikal: evening everyone
    Pila Mulligan: hi Vajra
    Paradise Tennant: hiya vajra :)
    Splashinda Pond: hi Vajra
    Sylectra Darwin: Sophia, welcome back
    Pila Mulligan: welcome back SpohiaSharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: gaahh
    Sylectra Darwin: We're talking about ego and divisiveness getting in the way of awareness and a sense of togetherness, did I get that right?
    Paradise Tennant: :) yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sounds great
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Vajra Radikal: great subject
    Vajra Radikal: any insights you may wish to share?
    Pila Mulligan: how a loss of reverence allows trivialities and social drama to arise
    Sylectra Darwin: oh, I like that, Pila
    Sylectra Darwin: I always had trouble with a similar truth, which is that you cannot hold compassion and anger in your heart at the same time. I got it, but had trouble making it apply in my life. Your way of looking at reverence helps.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it is somethjing to consider
    Paradise Tennant: yes find it easier if you remember that everyone is a perfect being buddha what ever and what obstructs it is just like fog on a mirror.. never get fussed with the fog :)
    Vajra Radikal: i have found that the only way of fighting off anger is by viewing that at the root of your anger there is a valuable lesson to be learned
    Vajra Radikal: thus those that anger you are teaching you something and you need to be grateful to them
    Sylectra Darwin: Good points, Paradise and Vajra.
    Paradise Tennant: they are giving you the opportunity to discipline your mind and open your heart :)
    Vajra Radikal: precisely
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, to both, especially together :))
    Vajra Radikal: there is a story about atisha having a cook that was extremely exasperating
    Vajra Radikal: everyone complained about him and requested atisha to get rid of him
    Vajra Radikal: atisha told them that he valued his cook
    Sylectra Darwin: I was listening to a podcast on anger that is part of the "Zencast" audio show
    Vajra Radikal: for he taught him how to develop patience and tolerance
    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
    Pila Mulligan: but I've met a few people whose essence seemed more likely to be a 'perfect being monkey'
    Sylectra Darwin: hehe, Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Vajra Radikal: lol
    Pila Mulligan: if transmigration of souls is a valid idea, we may very well need to be patient with them also
    Paradise Tennant: lol monkey fog :))
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Vajra Radikal: in buddhism the root of all anger and suffering is ego thus you can never blame someone else for your anger you are the creator of your own demons. In essence this is karma. Then you reach a point where you understand there is no me and them its just us.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so the 'fog' can be related to 'what we are' or 'what we have'?
    Paradise Tennant: only what we think we are and what we think we have
    Vajra Radikal: the fog derives from perception as it fogs your view of true reality
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Sylectra Darwin: The fog interests me.
    Paradise Tennant: what we are is perfection
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: just have to shine the mirror :)
    Vajra Radikal: joseph campbell once said that trascendence is that which can no be soiled by words describing it. thus anything that can be described or classified is derived from our own warped perception of being
    Nostrum Forder: Hmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Nostrum
    Vajra Radikal: namaste nostrum
    Sylectra Darwin: Hey look, its the fog!
    Nostrum Forder: the fog is moving in.
    Vajra Radikal: hehehe
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    Sylectra Darwin: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: LOL Sylectra
    Sylectra Darwin: nice entrance.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i hoped it wasnt my computer
    Sylectra Darwin: Can we be sure of what we're seeing?
    Vajra Radikal: anyone care for some tea?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Have you been here before Nostrum?
    Nostrum Forder: often
    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
    Sylectra Darwin: Nos is a fellow guardian, lol
    Sylectra Darwin: and bringer of mirth.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: omg, ok, I am not here enough then.... :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sorries
    Paradise Tennant: l)) hiya nostrum
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to go, take care all
    Sylectra Darwin: one evening Nostrum drove a bus to the meeting.
    Paradise Tennant: good night sophia :0
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh? cool
    Splashinda Pond: Bye!
    Pila Mulligan: bye SophiaSharon
    Sylectra Darwin: ok Sophia, I am not far behind as it's been a long day.
    Sylectra Darwin: Nice to talk with you. :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yep :) waves
    Vajra Radikal: namaste sophia
    Nostrum Forder: I'm an agent of chaos. :)
    Splashinda Pond: lol
    Sylectra Darwin: My favorite :)
    Vajra Radikal: we do love chaos
    Paradise Tennant: ahhh cool
    Nostrum Forder: I'm also Syl's bedtime alarm. :)
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    Sylectra Darwin: hehe
    Sylectra Darwin: Nite all, it was a pleasure!
    Splashinda Pond: bye bye syl
    Paradise Tennant: good nite sylectra :))
    Pila Mulligan: bye Sylectra, Splash and Nostrum
    Vajra Radikal: thanks syl
    Splashinda Pond: bye guys
    Paradise Tennant: bye splash
    Vajra Radikal: no there are no guardians?
    Vajra Radikal: any more thoughts on anger and compassion guys?
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Pila Mulligan: hmm, I'm a bit apart but watching -- munching on leftovers
    Paradise Tennant: kind of elmental opposites really
    Paradise Tennant: :)) me too
    Pila Mulligan: rl food :)
    Vajra Radikal: hehe
    Paradise Tennant: tofu noddles ?
    Vajra Radikal: im on a rl diet
    Pila Mulligan: no, a this basil-eggplant dish, from a restaurant
    Pila Mulligan: yummmmy
    Vajra Radikal: thus i can only munch on sl pozza
    Paradise Tennant: lol sounds yummy even the sl pizza :)
    Pila Mulligan: anger and compassion should not be confused with conflict and compassion
    Pila Mulligan: conflict can be necessary
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Vajra Radikal: it is
    Paradise Tennant: and the most appropriate response
    Vajra Radikal: how else can you learn
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Vajra Radikal: however not withstanding theory it is very hard to accomplish true detachment from your ego
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it can be
    Vajra Radikal: ive been at it for 4 years now and still a long way to go
    Paradise Tennant: sigh .. I should scoot .. getting late on the east coast .. thank you both .. really enjoyed the discussion
    Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Paradise, as awlays
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Vajra Radikal: same here
    Paradise Tennant: and you pila as always .. thanks you vajra :))
    Paradise Tennant: good nite :)
    Pila Mulligan: what have you been doing for four years Vajra?
    Vajra Radikal: trying to practice dharma
    Pila Mulligan: ahh
    Vajra Radikal: im a radical atheist turned buddhist
    Pila Mulligan: interesting
    Pila Mulligan: were you something before being a radical atheist?
    Vajra Radikal: it actually is quite compatible
    Vajra Radikal: i was born a catholic
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Vajra Radikal: but an inquisitive mind is quite inconpatible with rome
    Pila Mulligan: an inquisitional mind is not
    Vajra Radikal: hehe
    Pila Mulligan: brb
    Vajra Radikal: what about u pila do you follow any spriritual practice or are you a standup filosopher
    Pila Mulligan: back
    Vajra Radikal: philosopher
    Pila Mulligan: I should followup on that pun -- my favorite cousin was a catholic priest, I am not anti-catholic
    Pila Mulligan: just seemed a fun pun
    Pila Mulligan: I've been doing a chinese meditaion and taichi practice for several decades
    Vajra Radikal: no prob
    Vajra Radikal: chinese meditation? sort of tao
    Pila Mulligan: kind of yes
    Pila Mulligan: mostly a simple zen like practice
    Pila Mulligan: sitting, breathing
    Pila Mulligan: more details than zen though
    Pila Mulligan: since it relates to chi, as doe stai chi
    Pila Mulligan: as does tai chi*
    Vajra Radikal: ok chi gong?
    Pila Mulligan: same idea
    Vajra Radikal: or something sounding similar
    Pila Mulligan: same
    Pila Mulligan: chi is like rana in yoga, breathing energy
    Pila Mulligan: prana*
    Vajra Radikal: yep familiar concept i used to do quite a lot of yoga
    Pila Mulligan: )
    Pila Mulligan: werent; the breathig exercise helpful :)
    Pila Mulligan: I love to do them
    Pila Mulligan: gets the enrgy moving
    Vajra Radikal: is it popular where u live
    Vajra Radikal: not a large chinese community in mexico
    Pila Mulligan: somewhat -- I live in a remote area of Hawaii so there is a lot of diversity here
    Vajra Radikal: thus very little acces to this
    Pila Mulligan: tai chi is popular beyond the limits of the chinese community now, it seems -- there may be some classes near you --but it is just anothe rpractice, not something I'm trying to sell
    Pila Mulligan: http://chinesehealth.com/wtcqd/wtcqd..._search.asp=Go
    Vajra Radikal: i did try a tai chi practice but it was sort of a scam i will actually try a new joint around the corner of my office
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, the teahcer is important
    Pila Mulligan: there a scams everyhwere
    Pila Mulligan: I just found that list on Google- I have no idea of its quality
    Pila Mulligan: there are several old schools or styles of tai chi named after the families that started them
    Pila Mulligan: the oldest is the Yang Style, fromthe Yang family
    Pila Mulligan: I do the style from the Wu fmaily, Wu Style
    Vajra Radikal: only one school in mexico city
    Pila Mulligan: really
    Pila Mulligan: surprisng
    Vajra Radikal: on the list i mean
    Pila Mulligan: on that list, just one, I bet there are many
    Vajra Radikal: i found an additional place sponsored by the chinese embassy
    Pila Mulligan: nice
    Vajra Radikal: will give it a try
    Vajra Radikal: thank 4 the link
    Pila Mulligan: there is also the Sun Style -- if you ask the teacher what style he teaches and he looks bewildered, be careful :)
    Vajra Radikal: will do so and i will come back here to discuss my impressions with you
    Pila Mulligan: ok :)
    Vajra Radikal: any hel appreciated
    Vajra Radikal: help
    Pila Mulligan: well, watching a class or two will tell yuo a lot
    Pila Mulligan: you should be able to see and feel the competence of the teracher
    Pila Mulligan: teacher*
    Pila Mulligan: any tai chi practicioner capable of teaching should have a self-evident competence, in ym opinion
    Vajra Radikal: how long do the sessions usually last?
    Pila Mulligan: maybe an hour or so
    Vajra Radikal: ive seen it done usually in the early morning any recommendations on schedule?
    Pila Mulligan: I like early morning, I'm 63 years old and it gets my body awake and moving
    Pila Mulligan: classes can be any time
    Pila Mulligan: but practice in the morinbg is best for me
    Vajra Radikal: thanks 4 the advice
    Pila Mulligan: the main thing is to really do it if you want it to be of help
    Pila Mulligan: like anything, you need to practice to learn it
    Vajra Radikal: how ever i do need to get away frim the keys for an hour while i do my excersice
    Pila Mulligan: ok, nice to visit with you
    Vajra Radikal: as it it late here
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Vajra Radikal: thans again
    Pila Mulligan: see oyu next tie
    Vajra Radikal: namaste
    Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
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