2009.07.18 01:00 - Boundlessness, Zeroth Time, and an End to Suffering

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are by Scathach Rhiadra.

    Nymf Hathaway: Good morning Scathach :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: good morning Nymf:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: how are you today?
    Nymf Hathaway: Doing well thank you, slept in...and you?
    Scathach Rhiadra: just waking up!
    Scathach Rhiadra: so, is there any topic you want to talk about?
    Nymf Hathaway: In for anything but a totally blanc mind so far :(
    Nymf Hathaway: still on my first coffee
    sophia Placebo: greetings
    Scathach Rhiadra: me too:)
    Nymf Hathaway: Good day Sophia :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia!
    Nymf Hathaway: How lovely you look :)
    sophia Placebo: ty ^^
    sophia Placebo: hi bert
    Nymf Hathaway: Really beautiful
    sophia Placebo: hi pema
    Bertram Jacobus: good morning all :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: Good day Pema and Bertram
    Pema Pera: Hi Scathach, Bert, Nymf, Sophia!
    Bertram Jacobus: ty sophia and nymf :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and pema :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Bertram and Pema
    Pema Pera: fish in the pond!
    Bertram Jacobus: and scathach : also hy :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Bertram, have you been here before?
    Pema Pera: a nice addition!
    sophia Placebo: yes 4 of them
    sophia Placebo: circling counter clock wise
    Pema Pera: Bert is an oldtimer :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: no. it´s my first time at this place i think. what are you doing here usually ? :-)
    Pema Pera: oops, my mistake, different Bert :-)
    Pema Pera: sorry about that!
    Bertram Jacobus: oldtimer yes, but here a newbie :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I will give you a notecard
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: okay . ty again :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: i´ll sit for a moment ... :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: please do
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Sophia
    sophia Placebo: Hi sophia sharon
    Pema Pera: Hi SophiaSharon!
    Scathach Rhiadra: we are a meditation group who meet here four times a day
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - the notecard starts very interesting ! :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Everyone :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: we record our discussions and post them on our wiki,
    Bertram Jacobus: that is great ! :-)
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Bertram!
    Scathach Rhiadra: so I have to ask if it ok to include your name and comments?
    Bertram Jacobus: "sure" - yes, please. no problem at all :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: thank you:)
    Bertram Jacobus: I thank YOU (!) :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello SophiaSharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and your actual meeting just started now ? :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes just a few minutes ago!
    Pema Pera: Es gibt auch ein Deutshe Einfuehring, Bert: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/summary/einfuehrung/
    Bertram Jacobus: and did you already have a special topic ?
    Nymf Hathaway: Still waking up
    Scathach Rhiadra: our wiki is at http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Scathach Rhiadra: no, no specific topic yet!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me too nymf :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: me three!
    Bertram Jacobus: i see, but ... i think, i prefere at the moment to check out what it is here, "live" ... but ty for the hint anyway naturally ! :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: smiles
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: how long do you meet here already ? since when ?
    Scathach Rhiadra: since April 1st last year
    Scathach Rhiadra: since*
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow ! that´s a quite long time already !
    Nymf Hathaway: Is impressed by Sophia Placebo's avi :))
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes four meetings a day over a year
    sophia Placebo: why . thank you Nymf !
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s nearly uncredible - that is so much time ... how can one handle this ? ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, it is of course not the same people at each meeting
    Scathach Rhiadra: though some try to go to a few a day!
    Bertram Jacobus: and another question is in my mind : what may be a kind of "results" for all of you until now ? are there any developings or similar things through these meetings here ? and when yes - which ones, for example ? ...
    sophia Placebo: yes sometimes we talk all the time , sometime we just sit silently
    Bertram Jacobus: i see. sounds really nice ...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: for me Bertram, ive been cataloging and reordering what I have thought about for years, in the sense of how things appear...but I am still feel a bit of a newcomer :)
    Pema Pera: many people coming here report that they feel more open and relaxed, after trying our 9 sec experiments for a few days in RL -- to stop what you're doing for 9 seconds, once every 15 minutes or so. It's always a surprise, for us too, how quickly nice participants feel a tangible difference.
    Bertram Jacobus: i see sophiasharon ... all very interesting ... :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, the stops have been crucial
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nice little friend on your shoulder :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. ty :-)
    sophia Placebo: how much dropping one can achieve in Rl in 9 senods
    Bertram Jacobus: and a great idea. to stop for 9 seconds every 15 minutes or so ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, the regular stops give a good continuity of practice throughout the day
    Pema Pera: (15 minutes = 900 seconds, so it is a 1% time tax :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: may be, this place here can be a great enrichment i guess ... :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: It is Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: and i found it by chance ... :-)
    Pema Pera: :)
    sophia Placebo: yes
    Nymf Hathaway: Those are often the best
    Scathach Rhiadra: most people do
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I was going to say the same thing
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes ... thoughts seem to be like "in the air" ... or associations ... then more than one person gets it (?) ... :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes i love that :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, synchronicity?
    Bertram Jacobus: i like that, too. feels a bit like "truth" then, sometimes ... :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes, but on the flip side can be destructive too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (not now tho)
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t know much about that "synchronnisity" topic ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: can you say more SophiaSharon?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: group think, energy passed to others in tense situations of some kinds
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a type of communication
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, like mob mentality
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, could be
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia: can be productive, too
    Scathach Rhiadra: though when it comes down to practice, stopping, dropping, it is a very personal thing, can only share the results, so to speak
    sophia Placebo nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: but have to do the practice individulay, no body can do it for you
    Bertram Jacobus: but ... some teachings are about common things, also like for example "emptyness" and similar aspects - are these not common , also in experiencing when we stop and drop ?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, certainly, but the experience is individual, and the teaching are attempts to describe, what is basically undescribable
    Bertram Jacobus: agree :-))
    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles and nods
    Bertram Jacobus: today still a 200 km car tour "waits" for me ... hm ...
    Pema Pera: and what we do is compatible with most any philosophy or religion, which means that we can meaningfully share and compare, without trying to convince anybody to adopt any particular theory or tradition
    Nymf Hathaway: Thats a lot of time to think Bertram :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes pema - and my idea is, that all paths which include love are ... "good" ? ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and you are very right nymf :o))
    Pema Pera: Love is most certainly compatible with Play, and with Being as well (our name is Play as Being)
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, I would think all paths are good if they are followed
    Bertram Jacobus: in the 80ies, there was a text part in a music title. it was one of the many "psycedelic" music groups which existed at that time and it said "what game shall we play today" - i never forgot that ... :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Pema Pera: one of our ideas is that our identification with the particular body and mind we have can be seen as a way that what Is plays us . . .
    Pema Pera: So the Universe/Reality/Being (whatever you want to call us) is playing us
    Pema Pera: but in order to explore that, we in turn try to play Being
    Pema Pera: to see how that feels and what difference it makes
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. and we ? are not really capable to do "things of our own" ?
    Pema Pera: in other words, we try to drop what we have in order to see what we are
    Pema Pera: that's an interesting question, Bert, what do you think?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is becoming increasingly apparent to me that playing in physciality may be what this is about (incarnation)
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t know it too for sake. i think about that already a long time ...
    Pema Pera: what possible answers came up for you, so far, if I may ask?
    Bertram Jacobus: very simply, both : first : there is no capacity for own action. especially the idea of boundlessness seems to bring that association to me - not a very easy to bear thought ...
    Bertram Jacobus: the other thing is : if an "absolute"area" really exists - and i hope so i have to say - then, there could be a space for own acting ... but
    Bertram Jacobus: the first idea seems more real for me at the moment, but really not comfortable (!)
    Pema Pera: can you say more about "boundlessness" and how that influence the possibility for action?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. ty very much for giving me the possibility to talk about that :
    Bertram Jacobus: in, for example, buddhistic teachings, there are connotations as "since beginningless" times and similar ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and when i look to micro- and macrocosm - i don´t see any end or boundry
    Bertram Jacobus: so the idea of boundlessness is very likely to me
    Bertram Jacobus: now :
    Bertram Jacobus: when since "such a long time" the try to end suffering, did not lead to a result or conclusion of this problem
    Bertram Jacobus: the logical clue has to be, that also never that will be solved - right ?
    Pema Pera: logical conclusion yes, within the logic of our limited relative framework
    Bertram Jacobus: so i have the fear, that i can´t really do anything, not end suffering for example, which would be very important to me.
    Bertram Jacobus: ("ready" so far)
    Pema Pera: but there is no reason to believe that the logic we use in everyday life applies to all and everything in an unlimited way!
    Pema Pera: In fact, science is one long example of showing where every century new ideas are discovered that fall outside the logic of the previous century
    Pema Pera: from Euclidean geometry to curved time and space
    Pema Pera: from classical mechanics to quantum mechanics
    Pema Pera: so it is in fact most likely that newer insights require a new logic
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: agrees fully with Pema
    Bertram Jacobus: but ... the question is still there : when in may be unbounded time suffering did not end yet - how should it end ever ?
    Pema Pera: the most likely hypothesis, as far as I can see, is that the nature of time is in fact quite different from the past-present-future structure of time that seems to apparent to us in everyday life
    Pema Pera: Buddhists, as well as many explorers in other philosophies and spiritual traditions have talked about a different time
    Bertram Jacobus: "sure"
    Pema Pera: sometimes called a fourth time (I like "zeroth time")
    Pema Pera: a kind of eternal present
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. on lsd trips we experienced such a "timeless time" for example ...
    Pema Pera: and from that view your question takes on a very different meaning and allows very different answers
    Pema Pera: in fact, the notion of "no self" and "no time" go hand in hand, one without the other wouldn't make much sense, for reasons you have started to indicate
    Bertram Jacobus: ok. but ... i have no understanding in relation to the question or the answer to it : why could we fall in such a heavy suffering state !?
    Pema Pera: there is no "we" and we have never "fallen" into anything
    Pema Pera: that is the most radical answer, allowing the shortest most radical solution
    Pema Pera: if we are willing to entertain that hypothesis honestly, without believing or disbelieving!
    Scathach Rhiadra: also when Buddhists talk of 'the end of suffering' it is not necessarily what we think it is
    Pema Pera: yes, it is a kind of "end" within zeroth time :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Pema Pera: an endless end
    Pema Pera: open, openended
    Bertram Jacobus: but i mean my own feelings : how could it happen, that i fell into such a heavy state ?
    Pema Pera: you never did :)
    Nymf Hathaway: "Play as Being" often sounds to me as; "Zijn wie je bent". Thats Dutch for "Be who you are". But this might be due to my lack of English :) I think the discovery of who you are is a journey in itself. Listening to people who know themselfs and dare to ask themselfs critical questions is most fulfilling.
    Pema Pera: there is the appearance (Erscheinung) that there is a you that fell :)
    Bertram Jacobus: but so you negate my feelings ?
    Pema Pera: Yes, Nymf, be who you really are -- that is our challenge, and our exploration, and I'm very pleased, Bert, that you are jumping right into asking all these questions so seriously, at your first visit :-) Thank you!o
    Pema Pera: no, we don't negate or deny or suppress anything, Bert
    Pema Pera: we acknowledge the appearance of your feelings
    Bertram Jacobus: then i see a contradiction : my feelings are real, but at the other hand not ? ;-)
    Pema Pera: like we acknowledge the appearance of a dream or movie, without buying into the actual existence of the players
    Pema Pera: the presence of the appearance of a feeling is a real presence
    Pema Pera: that is all you can say
    Bertram Jacobus: but ! this all does not help me for example NOW (!?) - or even more important : for a longer period (?)
    Pema Pera: like the presence of a snapshot of a movie, the play of light that carries an implied meaning
    Pema Pera: well, that depends: the idea can never help, but if they idea encourages you to try out the exploration, you may see for yourself what I'm trying to point out with words and ideas
    Bertram Jacobus: and aside : very nice what nymf said and pema for sure too :-)
    Pema Pera: when I tell you there is a bakery, you cannot eat my words, but you can go there and eat the bread . . . .
    Bertram Jacobus: and okay : at the moment, it helps :-)
    Pema Pera: but again, a very good question, I'm really glad you asked!
    Pema Pera: since the 9-sec practice is the beginning of this "eating"
    Nymf Hathaway: Very active for a new one :))
    Pema Pera: and I'l love to hear how it tastes, after you've tried it for a few hours or so
    sophia Placebo nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Pema Pera: Please do tell us, next time!
    Nymf Hathaway: Wishing everyone a beautiful day or good night :) and thanks for the thoughts
    Pema Pera: thanks for joining us, Nymf!
    Bertram Jacobus: same to you nymf
    Scathach Rhiadra: good day Nymf:)
    sophia Placebo: bye nymf :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye nymf
    Nymf Hathaway: Bye bye everyone :)
    Pema Pera: What a nice crowd & conversation for a 1 am session!
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I feel more awake now!
    Bertram Jacobus: lol :-)
    Pema Pera: Normally I miss these, when I am at home in the U.S., but I'm visiting Japan now, so it is just before dinner time here
    sophia Placebo: yes it usually so sleepy :P
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to go too, bye all :))
    Bertram Jacobus: but ... sleepy feelings i like, too (i have to admit) ... ;o)
    Pema Pera: bye SophiaSharon!
    sophia Placebo: bye sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: take care
    Bertram Jacobus: bye sophiasharon :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye SophiaSharon, take care:)
    sophia Placebo: see you all later , nice to meet you Bert !
    Bertram Jacobus: "okay" - then i will leave this nice circle too ... still make a lm ... :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sophia, see you later:)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty all and same same :-)
    Pema Pera: Bye Sophia!
    Scathach Rhiadra: nice to meet you Bertram, hope to see you again here:)
    Pema Pera: bye Bert!
    Bertram Jacobus: i plan it :-)
    Pema Pera: great!
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! :-)
    Pema Pera: your fire will help us all to bake our bread :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods:)
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m impressed ...
    Bertram Jacobus: see you - have a good time please
    Pema Pera: u 2 :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: you too!
    Bertram Jacobus: ty and bye :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, nice to see you Pema, have a good dinner:)
    Pema Pera: Thank you for introducing Bert, Scathach, that was a very nice and gentle way to recieve newcomers!
    Pema Pera: thank you, Scathach! A good lunch for you in due time, or breakfast first?
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, I don't get many newcomers here at this time, I need the practice!
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: breakfast!
    Pema Pera: enjoy!
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye!
    Tag page (Edit tags)
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core