2009.07.22 13:00 - You Say Yes, I Say No

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Scathach!
    Scathach Rhiadra: How are you?
    Fefonz Quan: doing well. and you?
    Scathach Rhiadra: fine, tired:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: were you at the Deer Park today?
    Fefonz Quan: yep, justtp'ed from there
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)
    Bertram Jacobus: hy all :-)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Bertram
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Gaya!
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz, Bertrum and Scath :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello gaya ... :-)
    Fefonz Quan: is ti a new hat?
    Fefonz Quan: it*
    Gaya Ethaniel: No :) I've been wearing it for a bit since I changed my outfit into this one. You like it?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it is very nice:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks. Human features make good accessories for bunnies maybe.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes it is, from one side it looked like a mask of a face
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hell Questa :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Questa
    Bertram Jacobus: hi questa ... :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Questa
    Questa Blackheart: Hi all.
    Fefonz Quan: Have you been here before QUesta?
    Questa Blackheart: Yes. A few times.
    Questa Blackheart: I had some time out.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fox :)
    Fox Monacular: hello everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: hy fox ... :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fox
    Fefonz Quan: cool. so i guess we haven't met :) Needed to ask for the logging records though
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :) Bertram is wearing a bunny.
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. yes gaya :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I should look for a human shaped scarf to sling over my shoulder next :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Fox
    Questa Blackheart: I understand. :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: that was exactly what i thought, too gaya ! :-))
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Questa Blackheart: Very cute it is too.
    Fefonz Quan: it is cute :) though it goes through your throught effortlessly ...
    Questa Blackheart: Human scarf. :-)
    Questa Blackheart: Just trying to imagine it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe around my neck in a yogic pose heheheh
    Bertram Jacobus: but ... may be, i would prefere a little human playing around on the shoulders ... ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Apologies for the silliness. What is the topic by the way?
    Bertram Jacobus: just like my bunny ( a gift by the way) ... :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Questa Blackheart: How about "change" as a topic?
    Fox Monacular: spare some change?
    Fefonz Quan: nice try for changing the topic :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Questa Blackheart: :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: please take it on Queasta
    Questa Blackheart: I have just been told I will likely be made redundant.
    Questa Blackheart: Excuse me while I sort out my sitting.
    Questa Blackheart: It'll have to do. :-)
    Fefonz Quan: redundant in what way if i may ask?
    Questa Blackheart: I have 30 days to find a job internally in my company. After that they will make me redundant.
    Questa Blackheart: It's a pretty common story right now.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Questa Blackheart: However, I didn't see it coming. It was a bit of a shock but I'm actually OK with it.
    Fefonz Quan: well, i can tell youmy whole company became redundant a few months ago
    Questa Blackheart: It forces me to do the things I may not have had courage to do otherwise.
    Questa Blackheart: Sorry to hear that Fefonz.
    Bertram Jacobus: may i ask, where you live questa ?
    Fefonz Quan: well, it's cool, i had a chance to go into PaB :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    Questa Blackheart: :-)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Sophia
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Sophia.
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello sophia
    Fox Monacular: hi Sophia
    Bertram Jacobus: hy sophia ... :-)
    sophia Placebo: hi fefe ho scath hi bert hi fox hi all
    sophia Placebo: hi gaya :)
    Fefonz Quan: It does shakes the Boat Questa
    Fefonz Quan: though it still shows they think good of you
    Questa Blackheart: In a good way Fefonz. I've been with my company for 9 years. It's a good company to work for but it's probably time to change.
    Bertram Jacobus: itֲ´s different in the different countries : in germany, for example, where i live, there is a quite good social structure when one looses the job ...
    Questa Blackheart: I just wonder why people find change so terrifying when it happens all the time.
    Fox Monacular: i think historically there has necer been so much change
    Fefonz Quan: maybe it doesn't happen frequently enough :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Questa Blackheart: I don't think we have a good social structure for anything here. :-)
    Fefonz Quan: once in nine years is quite rare
    Bertram Jacobus: and, so is said here and there, men tend to live in illusions ...
    Fefonz Quan: and obviously it is teriffying because of fear of the unknown
    Questa Blackheart: Yes. It's only the second time I have been made redundant. The first time I already had a job to go to.
    Bertram Jacobus: where is "here" questa, please ?
    sophia Placebo: hello mick
    Questa Blackheart: I'm in the UK.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Fox Monacular: i'm terrified of a thought of having to actually look for a job... i'll stay in school for now :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ok. ty
    Fefonz Quan: and btw - 'you' have not been made redundant, only your work position at that moment was
    Fox Monacular: hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: hiya,,I see u saved my seat
    Bertram Jacobus: and hello mick ... :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: but when the change actually happens, it can feel quite liberating
    Questa Blackheart: Yes Scathach
    Fefonz Quan nods to Scath
    Questa Blackheart: I do feel quite liberated.
    Fox Monacular: change is the only truth
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Questa Blackheart: They are giving me enough money so I don't have to work for a while, which helps.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Questa Blackheart: Or change is the only constant. :-)
    sophia Placebo: change is the time passing
    Fox Monacular: yes:)
    Mickorod Renard: go with the flow
    Bertram Jacobus: the only ?
    Questa Blackheart: The thing I find quite amusing is that most people look sympathetic and ask me if I'm OK.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, for somr people the fear of change is very powerful
    Scathach Rhiadra: some*
    Fefonz Quan: sounds like a nice response, isn't it?
    sophia Placebo: social support or attention ! which is good no ?
    Questa Blackheart: And there is an expectation that other people will also find change terrifying.
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes
    Fefonz Quan: there are people that find routine life teriffying
    Questa Blackheart: It's a nice response, but maybe it's a bit over the top. I'm not berieved or anythinglike that. :-)
    Fox Monacular: from my experience with immigrants I find that women seem to tolerate change better than men...?
    Fefonz Quan: similar to youe response to me, saying you were sorry, though it was a good thing :)
    sophia Placebo: change is totally unpleasant for me in many cases , specially when im in a position to gain or to lose something
    Bertram Jacobus: i like changes, but as older i get as more uncomfortable it gets : change is often exhausting a bit, too ... ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: I fought change for a long time,,its a useless battle
    Questa Blackheart: You're right Fefonz. It's almost an automatic reaction.
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Fefonz Quan: i thought so too Fox
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya, Fef, Fox, Bertram, Scath, Questa, Sophia, Mick (interesting tag) :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello eliza ... :-)
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza
    Fefonz Quan: somehow women tend to be more emotionally flexible than Men. maybe they are not expected to be 'tough' all teh time
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Eliza
    Fox Monacular: perhaps it has something to do with the fact that women go through intense physical changes... when have babies for example
    Fox Monacular: hi Eliza
    Fox Monacular: like embodied change :)
    Gaya Ethaniel shrugs. Women are expected to be 'emotional' sometimes.
    Fefonz Quan: yep, that to. i waited for you to say that thoguh :)
    Fox Monacular: some women are :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Mickorod Renard: men build their castles of security,,if u know what i mean,,and dont like having to recalculate the risks all over again
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, moving a castle is harder then a tent :)
    Fefonz Quan: than*
    Fox Monacular: it's also cultural.. for men sometimes it's seen as weakness to express emotions
    Fefonz Quan: right.
    Fefonz Quan: but then, when the wind blows hard, the tough trees break while the flexible ones bend till it is over
    Mickorod Renard: expresing emotions of anger are expected of men,,and when they do, they are critisized for it
    Fox Monacular: yes, so resistance is futile really
    Eliza Madrigal: So women are Palm trees?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Really Mick? That's new to me ... in UK you mean?
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Mickorod Renard: I think its true most places
    Fox Monacular: in Russia expressing anger by men is seen as strength:)
    Fefonz Quan: it's most easy to criticize what you expected, isn't it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: The English frowns upon expression of emotions most of the time from what I've observed so far.
    Questa Blackheart: Stiff upper lip. :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel notes ... "avoid Russian men if possible." :)
    Mickorod Renard: women are attracted by men who show spirit but then they seem to use it as a stick to wave at men too
    Eliza Madrigal: we were talking a little this morning about how language affects culture, etc. also. So a word like 'kindness' is thought to be weak' or a female quality when it takes much strength inwardly/security to be kind.
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Questa Blackheart: Sorry, got to go. Domestic duties to do. :-)
    sophia Placebo: Hi Eliza !
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Questa :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Questa :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye questa
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Questa
    Eliza Madrigal: haha Hi sophia! :D
    Mickorod Renard: bye questa
    sophia Placebo: night questa
    Questa Blackheart: Bye all.
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Questa!
    Fox Monacular: yes, this is very interesting, i find there are many subtle misunderstandings between me and my husband that can be resolved if you think of the native language
    Fox Monacular: I'm Russian and he's French Canadian
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, and that happens in a setting like this one too Fox
    Fefonz Quan: so what is the native language?
    Eliza Madrigal: We often trace back what a word means to one as opposed to another
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fox Monacular: for example there is no word for 'abuse' in Russian language
    Fefonz Quan: it just never happens ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: ;-)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yeah, that must be it Fef =P~
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: not from men anyway
    Fox Monacular: it's almost seen as normal
    sophia Placebo: oh
    Bertram Jacobus: heavy ...
    Fox Monacular: or 'neglect'
    sophia Placebo: neglect is normal?
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting... is that due to Psychology not being something which has permeated?
    Gaya Ethaniel: You mean abuse and neglect are 'normal' states in the collective Russian psyche?
    Fox Monacular: I mean, these meanings exist of course, but in every situation we would use many specific descriptive words
    Fox Monacular: hmmm.. i think it's more like we're not as self-consciousabout that
    Fefonz Quan: maybe it is so common, that many words are used to define all teh different variasion (kind of like the escimos and snow)
    Fox Monacular: as in Norht America, where these thigs sometimes are brought to an obsessive level
    Fefonz Quan: variations*
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    sophia Placebo: so you would say that a man lied to his wife and took her money and cheated on her and beat her instead of saying he abused her ?
    Mickorod Renard: I find so many people who state that they dont believe in a blame culture
    Fox Monacular: yes
    sophia Placebo: ok
    Bertram Jacobus: therefor the buddha taught the "middle path" ...
    Fox Monacular: doesn't mean that we take it lightly though
    Mickorod Renard: in that case surely abuse would be used by someone initiating a blame culture
    sophia Placebo: i understand
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... I understand better now.
    Fox Monacular: there are also many differences I find between analytic and semantic languages
    Fefonz Quan: in what sense Bertram (just take the money?)
    Fox Monacular: like Russian and German are semantic, I think, and English is analytic
    Gaya Ethaniel: What do you mean by semantic here specifically Fox?
    Bertram Jacobus: because in russia for example, abuse may be taken not serious enough and in north america they make too big dramas - from that i came to this association fefonz ...
    Fefonz Quan: ok, thanks!
    Fox Monacular: if I remember correctly, in languages that are heavily dependent on grammar there are other ways to express meaning
    Fox Monacular: for example in Russian langiage I love you, love I you and you I love have slightly different meaings
    Mickorod Renard: finger gestures are common in the uk for this purpose
    Fefonz Quan: how do you finger jesture 'i oove you' mick?
    Fox Monacular: or in russian compassion literally means co-suffering
    Mickorod Renard: I will show you later Fef,,when we are alone
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    sophia Placebo: lol
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;-)
    Fefonz Quan runs for his life ;-)
    sophia Placebo: thats so brilliant
    Eliza Madrigal: hahha
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Mickorod Renard: we men understand each other
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Ara
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara
    Bertram Jacobus: hi arabella ... :-)
    sophia Placebo: hi ara :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Fox Monacular: men in russia too are expected to have more finger gestures
    sophia Placebo: we use our hands alot here too
    Fefonz Quan: and where i come from too
    Mickorod Renard: hands can express alot of love
    arabella Ella: we too in the Med
    Fefonz Quan: yap to Ara!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Med?
    arabella Ella smiles
    arabella Ella: mediterranean
    Fefonz Quan: meditterenian?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Bertram Jacobus: where is your "here" sophia - if i may ask ? ...
    sophia Placebo: midlle east
    arabella Ella: Fef you know the Mediterranean Sea ... with some little islands ... and some mainland ...
    Fefonz Quan: maybe that is some culturral way to dissolve stress, while showing the opponent your hand are emty of big guns
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. strange - as colder aregion is, as less people gesticulate ?
    Fefonz Quan: Sure Ara
    Eliza Madrigal: In America not so much, unless you count rude gestures. In Miami though, we are expressive with our hands, and also with giving hugs and cheek kissing :)
    Fox Monacular: yes, to preserve energy
    sophia Placebo: hehe bert , well i guess your are right
    Bertram Jacobus: graet idea fox
    arabella Ella: i guess emotions are expressed more openly in warmer countries somehow
    Bertram Jacobus: great*
    Fefonz Quan: sounds right to me too
    Scathach Rhiadra: we tend to enclose our words with some very colourful expletives, rather than using hand gestures
    Mickorod Renard: I guess finger gestures loose something with big gloves on
    Fox Monacular: exactly!
    Eliza Madrigal: colourful expletives Scath?
    Scathach Rhiadra: oh yes!
    Fefonz Quan: (fireworks?)
    arabella Ella: similar to the ones you hear at soccer or rugby events Scath?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I think poetry when I think of Ireland, but will have to branch out ! heh
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: heh:)
    Fefonz Quan: shame we can't have demonstratins here in SL
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :) not that I would personally ever use language like that!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: sure, i meant the hand jestures :)
    Fefonz Quan: Gestures?
    Fox Monacular: I had a funny miscommunication in Bulgaria once - there people nod for yes
    Eliza Madrigal: That could be your SL business Fef
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) wow I'm smiling a lot.
    arabella Ella: what's wrong with nodding for yes Fox?
    sophia Placebo: you nods for no in russia ?
    Fox Monacular: oh, I means for NO
    arabella Ella: here ppl often reply 'no' when they mean yes
    arabella Ella: in italy too
    Fox Monacular: they nod for no
    Gaya Ethaniel: In Asia too :)
    Fefonz Quan: people in general or just women ;-)
    Fox Monacular: haha
    Gaya Ethaniel: More about emphasising I think.
    Fox Monacular: mosly older poeple
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I was just thinking of India
    Fox Monacular: young tend to be more like in the rest of Europe
    Fefonz Quan: yes, asians in general don't like to say no
    Fefonz Quan: (east asians)
    Eliza Madrigal: Too much time online today, must pull myself away. Bye all :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we don't like saying no :)
    Fox Monacular: so I asked a bus driver if he goes somewhere , and he nods, and I ended up in a completely different place
    Mickorod Renard: when I am asking a woman if I am going on the right road i have noticed they tend to use yes instead of no
    arabella Ella: bye Eliza
    sophia Placebo: bye eliza
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Eliza!
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Eliza
    Bertram Jacobus: bye eliza ! :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Eliza :)
    sophia Placebo: lol mick
    Fox Monacular: bye Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: bye eliza
    sophia Placebo: i would
    Mickorod Renard: I never put it down to some complicated gramatical diference
    arabella Ella: they just are a bit scared to cross your path Mick :)
    sophia Placebo: haha fox !
    Fefonz Quan: that how i ended in quan-gu instead of kiyan-ju Gaya
    Mickorod Renard: I will be much more understanding from now on
    Fox Monacular: my avatar looks like she's typing even when I'm not...
    Fox Monacular: she has thoughts of her own now
    arabella Ella: a mind of her own :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fefonz?
    arabella Ella: perhaps some one could give u a stop all anims rose
    arabella Ella: stopped now
    Gaya Ethaniel: Different ways of pronouncing Chinese characters?
    Mickorod Renard: nods to Fef
    Fefonz Quan: Different south-lorean town in the south
    Fefonz Quan: korean*
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... Gwang-ju?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, something like that :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Gwang-ju, Kyeong-ju ... they all sound similar I know :)
    Fefonz Quan: and Gyeongju - exactly the opposite direction.
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know I can't believe you ended up in Gwang-ju (southwestern) in stead of Kyeong-ju (southeastern).
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds like you had fun though :)
    Fefonz Quan: surely i had a map and after 20 miles i turned back
    Bertram Jacobus: "ok" - iֲ´ll leave too now. itֲ´s late in cologne for a workinֲ´person ... cu and thanxx :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Bertram :)
    sophia Placebo: bye bert :)
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Bertram :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Bertram:)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye all :-)
    Mickorod Renard: bye bert
    Bertram Jacobus: and ty again :-)
    arabella Ella: bye bert
    Fefonz Quan: a lot of fun and a lot of kimchi Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) kimchi is good for you yes.
    Fefonz Quan: i love korean food, yes.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: maybe people don't want to say no because we are a positive species?
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks.
    Fox Monacular: I think it's culture dependent.. russians like to say no
    Fox Monacular: my 1 year old likes to say no better than to say yes
    Fefonz Quan: No!
    Fefonz Quan: well he is not spoiled by cultural behaviour yet
    arabella Ella: here and in italy if you ask someone if they wish to join you to the cinema they would reply 'No of course I will join you!'
    Fox Monacular: also we like to argue, to say 'yes, but...'
    Gaya Ethaniel: Think they just want to please others however they can, especially any guests. But I'm not so sure ... I personally dislike disagreeing.
    Fox Monacular: we too
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, argue is a good business for us too
    Fefonz Quan: i think so too Gaya
    Mickorod Renard: I remember being taught as a child to say no when offered things like buscuits out of couresy,,i remember denying myself so many pleasures just because of ettiquette
    Fefonz Quan: and in a way, it does tend to make conversations less confrontal
    Mickorod Renard: scuse my spelling
    sophia Placebo: if poeple here wante dto say no they started a lenghty speach of coplemnting you
    arabella Ella: yes mick i remember being taught that reaction too :)
    Fox Monacular: yes, I found that a biggest cultural difference in my couple
    Fox Monacular: we don't dislike disagreements
    Fox Monacular: and in North America they usually do
    Fefonz Quan nods to FOx, indeed
    Mickorod Renard: I prefer aggreements..as long as they suit me
    Scathach Rhiadra: I have to go, good night all, namaste
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: nite Scath! namaste
    arabella Ella: nite Scath
    Gaya Ethaniel: See you later Scath.
    sophia Placebo: night scath
    Mickorod Renard: nite scath
    Fox Monacular: so sometimes I may look confrontational in my husband's family when I disagree with people, and they usually agree with everything
    Gaya Ethaniel: Me too. Nice to see you all again :)
    Fox Monacular: or say something like 'to each his own'
    arabella Ella: nite Gaya
    Fox Monacular: bye Gaya
    Fefonz Quan: nite gaya
    Mickorod Renard: nite gaya
    sophia Placebo: bye gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel bows respectfully to her friends.
    arabella Ella: one expression i sometimes use is ... let's agree to disagree
    Fox Monacular: disagreements I think can be very fruitful
    Fox Monacular: for as long as nobody things it's a sign of aggression
    sophia Placebo: i cant say we prefer no or yes here
    Fox Monacular: thinks
    Fefonz Quan: yes, though some people find it so hard to handle Fox
    Fox Monacular: I know, and it's one of my biggest challenges
    Fox Monacular: I like to argue
    Fox Monacular: but not necessarily to win the argument
    Fefonz Quan: just for the fun, right?
    Mickorod Renard: I like that idea Fox,,but I have found that I cant seem to have an objection or creative disagreement in my home without it looking like I am instigating some blame culture
    Fox Monacular: to better understand the other person too
    sophia Placebo nods to fox
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i know what you mean.
    Fox Monacular: I know what you mean... it's the same in my home...
    arabella Ella nods
    Fox Monacular: I'm going to change a place, it looks like everyone is looking at me :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    sophia Placebo: in my home we are used to disagree and creat disagreement sometimes
    Fefonz Quan: for some a good (sometimes loud) argument is like enjoying a nice thriller at the movies, while for others it is like a horror picture
    Fox Monacular: it's true
    arabella Ella: good description Fefonz
    sophia Placebo: but when stranger hear us , usually they thought we are fighting
    sophia Placebo: words fight *
    Fox Monacular: yes, and I'm always arguing with my brother-in-law becase of his field, so really I just want a onstructive discussion, but he takes it personally
    Fefonz Quan: yet, keeping the mutual respect during is a subtle task, though crucial
    Fox Monacular: yes
    arabella Ella: but some cultures are louder than others too, often south is louder than north ... warmer louder than colder climates
    sophia Placebo: lol yeah much much louder
    Fox Monacular: we have ideological differences but it does not mean that personally we can't still be a close family
    arabella Ella: when i used to work with tourists here they often thought locals were fighting when they were merely chatting or discussing something
    Fefonz Quan: yes, and then i saw one company from one culture (won't name names) that are used to shout in business meeting, participating in a meeting with japanese...
    arabella Ella: ah Fox ideological differences are very difficult to discuss within a family or small community
    Fox Monacular: it's funny, many of my friends here think that when I talk on the phone with my russian family that we are fighting
    Fox Monacular: I know:)
    Fox Monacular: but I think it's much worse to just not talk....
    sophia Placebo: im off , goodnight , been nice night and nice chat
    Mickorod Renard: I am now old,,when I was young I could have an aggressive debate,,now i am mellow I just have to have an assertive debate
    Fox Monacular: and I find people here often prefer to talk about food during dinner
    Mickorod Renard: bye sophia
    Fefonz Quan: exactly what i thought right now Fox, better to express it somehow
    arabella Ella: nite sophia
    Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia
    arabella Ella: the thing about expressing ideological differences however is that ...
    Fefonz Quan: otherwise it accumulates beneath the surface, and then when errupts...
    Fox Monacular: exactly
    arabella Ella: people often feel threathened as they think the other party wants them to change their opinion which is often impossible
    Fox Monacular: yes, it's tricky
    arabella Ella: and dont forget that ...
    arabella Ella: in many western countries there are quite a few masonic lodges and ...
    Fox Monacular: however, ideological differences often make us stuck in a particular frame of mind
    Fefonz Quan: (masonic lodges?)
    arabella Ella: they say ... dont discuss politics, religion and ... cant remember third
    Fox Monacular: and money
    arabella Ella: freemasons Fefonz
    Fox Monacular: politics, religion and money, that's what we say in Russia
    Mickorod Renard: I came to realise that the regular person I had debate with was happy to become aggressive with me,,now I record the situation and for some reason they dont want to carry on with the debate..wierd
    Fefonz Quan: and the buddhist say, you might not say it aloud, but if you think it it is enough for the karma to take action
    Fox Monacular: then they would have to take responsibility for what they say
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Fefonz Quan: though in some of those issues, indeed at some point one needs to see that he won't change the others views, so he should better accept them
    Fefonz Quan: (not the views, them having them)
    Fox Monacular: and sometimes just for the sake of winning an argument we might say what we don't really mean
    Fox Monacular: just to contradict the other person
    arabella Ella nods to Fefonz
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Fefonz Quan: right. that's when we can easily see it became ego-fight :)
    Fox Monacular: totally
    arabella Ella: but the opposite can and does happen too when one party gives in simply to keep the peace or to avoid conflict
    Fox Monacular: I have ego-fights with my supervisor sometimes... when he makes too many changes to my abstracts :)
    arabella Ella: he he
    Fefonz Quan: i hate when that happens ara!
    arabella Ella: but Fefonz it often happens
    Mickorod Renard: I had a friend wjho used to play devils advocate in arguements,,it was fun,,but because we knew it was innocent
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    arabella Ella: and i for one often feel conflict is unnecessary waste of valuable energy
    Fox Monacular: and my professor is really good at it too! so sometimes I'm also just tempted to press the button 'accept all changes'
    Fefonz Quan: than you have all that accumulated adrenaline with no outlet :)
    arabella Ella: dont Fox ... but if you could i need a couple of abstracts written now presto please :)
    Fox Monacular: anytime, arabella
    Fox Monacular: :)
    arabella Ella: and Fefonz ... adrenaline can easily find other more feasible and useful outlets
    arabella Ella: ty
    Fox Monacular: I think it's the only thing I actually learned at school... to write abstracts fast... no matter if there's not much content
    arabella Ella: am in the process of writing outline for book and it is proving to be so time consuming
    Fefonz Quan: sure :) chopping some woods or doing the dishes
    arabella Ella: cooking?
    arabella Ella: walking?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, knifes and adrenaline yeah!
    arabella Ella: reading?
    arabella Ella: yes chopping garlic you mean?
    Fefonz Quan: hihi
    arabella Ella: cooked some lovely stuffed calamari tonite
    Fox Monacular: my house is always so clean when I have to write a paper
    Mickorod Renard: at one time you could rent urself out as a mercenary
    Fefonz Quan: sounds great ara
    arabella Ella: delicious
    arabella Ella: hey just remembered Qt
    arabella Ella: as my TV is on and today there was the eclipse in china
    arabella Ella: which he went off to visit
    Mickorod Renard: ohh,,will he be watchin the eclipse
    arabella Ella: yes
    Fefonz Quan: yes? cool!
    Fox Monacular: cool
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    arabella Ella: its over now
    arabella Ella: a solar eclipse
    Mickorod Renard: he's in papan though
    arabella Ella: mainly in india and china
    Mickorod Renard: japan
    Fox Monacular: I saw a total eclipse once in Istambul
    Mickorod Renard: I think
    Fefonz Quan: Mick, at some places today it is still possible, that mercenary stuff :)
    Fox Monacular: and then there was the earthquake
    arabella Ella: i saw one in prague about 10 years ago
    Fox Monacular: the next day...
    arabella Ella: ouch
    Fox Monacular: yeah....
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,looks like I am leaving
    arabella Ella: i love eclipses, last summer in August I experienced a moon eclipse in an ancient greek theatre in sicily while watching a performance there at night
    Mickorod Renard: cool
    Fox Monacular: wow
    Fox Monacular: I have to go too, my turn to wash dishes
    Mickorod Renard: I been there I think
    arabella Ella: yes the moon eclipse took my attention from the performance
    arabella Ella: i must go too now
    Mickorod Renard: nice setting
    arabella Ella: nite everyone
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: bye Mick, Fox, Ara
    Mickorod Renard: nite all
    Fox Monacular: bye everyone
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