2009.07.24 13:00 - fear as cause for suffering

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Lia Rikugun: hello bertram
Bertram Jacobus: hello lia ... :-)
Lia Rikugun: have we met before?
Bertram Jacobus: may be not (?) :-)
Lia Rikugun: well then nice to meet you! :)
Bertram Jacobus: ty. same same :-)
Lia Rikugun: but you have been here before right?
Bertram Jacobus: it´s my ... third time i guess :-)
Lia Rikugun: ok great
Lia Rikugun: hello fael
Fael Illyar: Hi Lia, Bertram :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello fael ... :-)
Lia Rikugun: hello fefonz
Lia Rikugun: hello wol
Bertram Jacobus: hello fefonz ... :-)
Wol Euler: hello lia, bertram, fef, fael
Lia Rikugun: nice to see you all
Bertram Jacobus: hello wol ... :-)
Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Fef :)
Fefonz Quan: Helo Lia, Bert, Wol, Fa
Wol Euler: was ist denn ein "heilswegler", bertram?
Bertram Jacobus: jemand, der alle wege der liebe sucht, geht und akzeptiert kurz gesagt wol ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: oder sich darum bemüht ...
Wol Euler: schön :)
Wol Euler: has lia asked you already about logging our sessions?
Lia Rikugun: :) no
Bertram Jacobus: you mean me wol ? i was already asked and it´s always ok. ty :-)
Lia Rikugun: but bertram has been here beofre :)
Wol Euler: good :)
Wol Euler: just checking. I was about to say that I'd translate your words for the record.
Fefonz Quan: well google translate does a pretty nice job indeed :)
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: i wonder if by checking the accuracy of all the two-languages links, you have a good criteria for how far they are
Bertram Jacobus: two language links ? what are they , please ?
Fefonz Quan: i meant all the options of translating from one language to another
Fefonz Quan: (all the pairs if you like)
Bertram Jacobus: oh. oke. i see. ty
Lia Rikugun: brb
Fefonz Quan fights the urge to write 'ken'
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes my english is not good enough to understand ... sry ...
Fefonz Quan: just a silly free association to the brbi word
Lia Rikugun: (back)
Bertram Jacobus: oh isee lol ty again :o)
Lia Rikugun: barby
Lia Rikugun: :)
Bertram Jacobus: yesyes
Fefonz Quan: having someone doubt his english because of me is really ironic :)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler laughs
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fefonz Quan: my i bring up a PaB topic? :0
--BELL--

is irony good or bad in general...?

Bertram Jacobus: could one say, that irony, in general, is good or bad ? - sry
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes the words in the chat are overlapping ...
Bertram Jacobus: ups
Fael Illyar: in general? no.
Fefonz Quan: i would agree with Fael on that
Bertram Jacobus: why not ?
Fael Illyar: depends entirely on the situation.
Fael Illyar: and what you want to achieve.
Wol Euler: agreed.
Bertram Jacobus: hm - i have to think about that ... entirely ? ... hm ... ;-)
Wol Euler: though I do think it is a pretty weak strategy for dealing with the world
Fefonz Quan: although i find it is frequently mixed with cynicism, which has some negative influence of ti's own
Fefonz Quan: its
Bertram Jacobus: nice - that all what you wrte tends in the direction i felt ... and more - the hint to the motivotion was fine, too. again and again i forget that ... *sigh* ...
Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fefonz Quan: as a matter of fact sometimes i find it hard to define what exactly irony is
Fael Illyar: I do find it pretty ironic that being afraid of certain things is the number one way to make them happen.
Fefonz Quan: similar to doubting the lacebo effect :)
Fefonz Quan: placebo*
Bertram Jacobus: isn´t it simple in one way : taking the things conciously in a different way as they are and bringing some humor with that ? ...
Fael Illyar: yep, being afraid that the pill doesn't work makes that more likely it doesn't :)

definition of fear and how it affects us, imagined fear and the fear in the actual situation

Bertram Jacobus: and the thing with the fear : may be, it´s a great force (?) ...
Bertram Jacobus: big force, powerful i meant
Fefonz Quan: in a way Bert (for 13:22), though there are humorous ways to look and things that are not irony
Fael Illyar: fear comes from believing that what you fear will happen.
Fefonz Quan: and from un-willingness to accept that option
Bertram Jacobus: yes fefonz, but this specific irony "thing" is linked with this "taking things different as they are" - no ?
Fefonz Quan: yes Bert, i just noted that i thought this is not enough. there are also different angle to look at things that are not ironic (and still funny:))
Fefonz Quan: angles*
Fefonz Quan: Fael, do you think fear can come also in the face of thing that are already happening, or only as a 'future oriented' phenomena?
Lia Rikugun: intersting question :)
Fael Illyar: I'd say it comes when things are happening too.
Lia Rikugun: did you make this experience fael?
Fael Illyar: but... even so it's anticipation of future.
Wol Euler: one can definitely fear the future, things that have not happened yet
Lia Rikugun: because as for me usually when i am in the situation i feared i can think clearly
Wol Euler: (unless you want a different word for that?)
Fael Illyar: the fear we imagine is usually worse than the fear of the actual situation.
Wol Euler: oh yes :)
Fefonz Quan nods
Lia Rikugun: yes thats true :)
--BELL--
Wol Euler: once you are in it, you are often too busy to be afraid
Fael Illyar: yep, no time to be afraid.

"fearing a future event is living it multiple times"

Fael Illyar: In a way, fearing a future event is living it mutiple times.
Fael Illyar: multiple
Fefonz Quan: (or in one wrong time - not now :)
Lia Rikugun: exactly
Wol Euler nods
Fael Illyar: I find it a good question to ask "do you truly want to live that moment more than once?"
Lia Rikugun: this was what we were also talking about in hte time workshopü
Lia Rikugun: concentrating on the moment right now
Lia Rikugun: which leads to not thinking too much about the past and the future
Fael Illyar: I find it's not a bad idea to think of the future (or past) but believing it's what you think it is would be.
Fael Illyar: recognizing that it's not the future (or past) that you're thinking about but an imagined event that only exists in your thoughts.
Lia Rikugun: ok but maybe you are spending too much time on thinking about things which are not real
Lia Rikugun: i am not sure what is best
Fael Illyar: all thinking is like that.
Lia Rikugun: some people tend to worry too much
Fael Illyar: no thinking is real in that sense.
Wol Euler: hello sophia
Bertram Jacobus: hello sophia ... :-)
Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
Fefonz Quan: Hello Shopia
Lia Rikugun: helo sophia
Wol Euler: ooh, a fae AO :)
sophia Placebo: yes ^^
Lia Rikugun: how fancy
sophia Placebo: AOs are what bring life to ava
Fefonz Quan: yes nice fairy appearance :)
Lia Rikugun: i am sorry can i ask you a question: could someone great the newbies because i am feeling very tired and nee dto go to bed
Fael Illyar: Yes, looks nice :)
Fael Illyar: sure :)
Fefonz Quan: sure
Lia Rikugun: i will put the chat log online tomorrow
Lia Rikugun: thank you and good night :)
sophia Placebo: night lia!
Bertram Jacobus: good night lia !
sophia Placebo: happy dreams
Bertram Jacobus: have a nice nite ! :-)
Fefonz Quan: good night Lia :)
Wol Euler: goodnight lia, take care
Fefonz Quan: fdsfasf
Fefonz Quan: wooh, i have a huge lag.
Bertram Jacobus: uh. here no lag. strange again and again what sl does ...
Bertram Jacobus: i appreciate much from the buddhistic teachings. and there is said to the future and past topic, that even from presence one should not make a "thing" ... hm. not easy but sounds very good to me ...

fear as cause for suffering, people are suffering , Spohia tells us of her suffering from being afraid to be a bad boss

Fefonz Quan: i believe fear is of the things most driving us and giving us suffering.
sophia Placebo: true
Fael Illyar: it is, yes.
sophia Placebo: im suffering
Fefonz Quan: can you say more Sophia?
sophia Placebo: rl stuff , i need to boss many poeple
sophia Placebo: im not good boss
Wol Euler nods
Fefonz Quan: why not?
Wol Euler: could you learn to be a better one?
sophia Placebo: i turn to a monester
Wol Euler: can you see what makes you bad? (assuming for the moment that you are right :)
Fefonz Quan: yes it do tend to nring that from people
sophia Placebo: i alwyas do the right thing wol , it is what others do !
Bertram Jacobus: you tend to what please fefonz ? sry - my imagination is not good enough - did not understand that word ...
Wol Euler: then why is that your problem?
sophia Placebo: thats how my ego works anyway
Bertram Jacobus: nring ?
Fefonz Quan: (bossing tends too, sorry for teh typoes/syntax)
Fefonz Quan: (bring)
Wol Euler: *bring, I thought
Bertram Jacobus: ah okay ty
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: how come others make you a bad boss?
sophia Placebo: fear of failure is what makes me suffer , i dot like to think as a fauilure and i dont to give that sensation to others whome i would boss , but it is a habit and i keep trying to not bring it up until i explode one day
Wol Euler frowns
Wol Euler: there is a difference between failure and correcting mistakes
Wol Euler: correcting mistakes is "teaching", it's a good thing
sophia Placebo: to me it is the same at some points of my life
sophia Placebo: the idea vanish the feelings persists
Fefonz Quan: and also bringing up things when they are small is easier to handle than accumulating and then bursting off
Fael Illyar: wouldn't the key be that you deem failure to be unacceptable?
Fael Illyar: or mistakes?
Fefonz Quan: also emotionally-wise it works better i found
sophia Placebo: i know , but fear is still there
Wol Euler: what exactly do you fear? is it the mistakes or what people might say about them?
sophia Placebo: what i would do to poepel is what i fear
Fael Illyar: or is it your own feeling of inadequacy that you fear?
Bertram Jacobus: what could you do to people if i may ask ?
sophia Placebo: yes in adequency to boss anybody , except kids
Wol Euler: hello ari, I was about to IM you :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Ari :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello arisia ... :-)
sophia Placebo: hi arisia
Wol Euler: awwww :)
Arisia Vita: Hi all...
Fefonz Quan: hi Ari
sophia Placebo: hmm bert , lots of things
sophia Placebo: i can go too strict
Bertram Jacobus: could you give me an example sophia ? i don´t understand yet -
Bertram Jacobus: ah i see ...
Bertram Jacobus: ty
sophia Placebo: or i can go with , do whatever you like
sophia Placebo: and make the place withoout a boss
Bertram Jacobus: but you seem to try to make it as godd as you can, don´t you sophia ?
sophia Placebo: sure
Fefonz Quan: looks like your employers thought you are adequate for this position
sophia Placebo: yes fef sadly poepel think im a dequate
Bertram Jacobus: for me that is the most important thing and all we can do also : to make efforts ... for me that is really satisfying (!) ...
Fael Illyar: the cause of your behauviour is the fear.
Fefonz Quan: maybe they saw good skill that you have, but you don't trust those
sophia Placebo: i told you my fear is my suffering
Fael Illyar: it is, yes.
Fael Illyar: and when we're scared, we tend to try to scare others into not doing whatever it is we're scared of.
sophia Placebo: true

accept the possibility of failure

Bertram Jacobus: sometimes a good method is, to set the contrary, even when it may feel very artifical at the beginning of such a practis. here the contrary would be faith ...
Bertram Jacobus: practice
Fefonz Quan: and also accepting the fact that failure is possible, but it is just another option
Fael Illyar: my own way of dealing with fear is that once I know what I fear, I set to making it so I can live with myself even if what I fear happens.
sophia Placebo: fauiler is not another option
Fefonz Quan: yes, that's what i meant too fael
sophia Placebo: another result maybe
Wol Euler: there is a difference between "failure" and "mistake" though
Fael Illyar: but, that is not because I'm expecting to fail. That's a way to avoid failing.
Wol Euler: failure is a judgement, and a terribly harsh one.
Fefonz Quan nods to Fael
Wol Euler: a mistake is just a fact
sophia Placebo: everything has an end so this fear is to end one day
Wol Euler: why do you judge yourself so harshly?
sophia Placebo: i dont
Wol Euler: sommebody does, you keep using that word...
Fael Illyar: yes you do, otherwise you wouldn't be so afraid.
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: The courage to be is the courage to accept oneself, in spite of being unacceptable - Paul Tillich
Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)
Arisia Vita: welcome gen
Wol Euler: hello gen
genesis Zhangsun: hey off to my workshop :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello genesis ... :-)
sophia Placebo: well i know what im good at and what im not , and bossing is not my thing , it is just they got shortage in staff this time and im bossing even bigger number
sophia Placebo: hi Gen
Fefonz Quan: Hi Gen
sophia Placebo: anyway thanks for your patient on my rant
Bertram Jacobus: thanks for YOUR openness sophia (!) ...
sophia Placebo: i better be off to sleep , night all
Fael Illyar: good night Sophia :)
Fefonz Quan: Thanks Sophia, and Good night
Bertram Jacobus: i wish you the very best ...
Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)
Wol Euler: agh, the lag monster bit me and I didn't see Sophia's goodbye
Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)

leaving to kira cafe...

genesis Zhangsun: can't seem to get in to the kira cafe
Fael Illyar: ah :)
Wol Euler: O.O
Bertram Jacobus: since i have a new computer, the lag monster doesn´t bite me (lol) very often anymore ... :-)
Fael Illyar: Well, I'll move to Kira Cafe now :)
Arisia Vita: I will head for Kira and see if I can help gen...
Bertram Jacobus: bye arisia then ...
Fael Illyar: See you later everyone who is not following :)
Wol Euler: see you there
Bertram Jacobus: bye fael ...
Wol Euler: goodnight fef, bertram
Fefonz Quan: b ye Fael
Fefonz Quan: nite Wol
Bertram Jacobus: good night wol - and ty all
Bertram Jacobus: what is this cafe fefonz ? :-)
Fefonz Quan: the Kira cafe?
Bertram Jacobus: oh. i already saw it in your profile now ...
Bertram Jacobus: yes, but i got it already thanks
Fefonz Quan: so you know about that organization?
Fefonz Quan: i can tell you more if you like
Bertram Jacobus: do you have a scientific profession, too ?
Fefonz Quan: i am a physicist by education, and in the last 15 years works in the industry, mostly image processing and algorithms stuff
Fefonz Quan: and you?
Bertram Jacobus: okay ... most people here seem to have such professions, right ?
Fefonz Quan: not sure
Bertram Jacobus: oh. i have a heavy vita - took drugs since i was 14. and so i fell out of my parents house - father was a journalist - and was "socially flattend" - like broschures call that. now i´m a courier driver ...
Fefonz Quan: what is a courier?
Bertram Jacobus: ehm - let me see - my dictionary ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: messenger ?
Fefonz Quan: i see you are an SL veteran :)
Bertram Jacobus: i drive with a car and bring mostly papers from people to others ... as a part of a worldwide net ...
Bertram Jacobus: veteran would be a bit too much said i gues ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: guess
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: and my profile ... i should overwork it once a bit ...
Fefonz Quan: well 2.5 years - not sure how far it can get
Bertram Jacobus: eternal ? ... ;-)
Fefonz Quan: in SL? i would be surprise if it gets more tha 4 years back
Bertram Jacobus: ah i see. i meant in the future direction ...
Fefonz Quan: hehe, who knows ?
Bertram Jacobus: but in the direction of past ... i don´t know how long it already exists ...
Bertram Jacobus: that´s it ! :o)
Bertram Jacobus: but i made big pauses in sl, too ... here and there ...
Bertram Jacobus: and i don´t use it so excessive some like - yes, one must say for sake - addicted persons ...
Fefonz Quan: i see. i use it only for Kira and PaB actually, so my business here is considered quite narrow :)
Bertram Jacobus: so many variations ! ... to use it ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: "okay" - i´d like to leave for the moment. ty for your time. always nice to talk with people ...
Fefonz Quan nods.
Fefonz Quan: good night.
Bertram Jacobus: godd night to you too fefonz :-)