2009.07.24 13:00 - fear as cause for suffering

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Lia Rikugun: hello bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: hello lia ... :-)
    Lia Rikugun: have we met before?
    Bertram Jacobus: may be not (?) :-)
    Lia Rikugun: well then nice to meet you! :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty. same same :-)
    Lia Rikugun: but you have been here before right?
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s my ... third time i guess :-)
    Lia Rikugun: ok great
    Lia Rikugun: hello fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Lia, Bertram :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello fael ... :-)
    Lia Rikugun: hello fefonz
    Lia Rikugun: hello wol
    Bertram Jacobus: hello fefonz ... :-)
    Wol Euler: hello lia, bertram, fef, fael
    Lia Rikugun: nice to see you all
    Bertram Jacobus: hello wol ... :-)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Fef :)
    Fefonz Quan: Helo Lia, Bert, Wol, Fa
    Wol Euler: was ist denn ein "heilswegler", bertram?
    Bertram Jacobus: jemand, der alle wege der liebe sucht, geht und akzeptiert kurz gesagt wol ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: oder sich darum bemüht ...
    Wol Euler: schön :)
    Wol Euler: has lia asked you already about logging our sessions?
    Lia Rikugun: :) no
    Bertram Jacobus: you mean me wol ? i was already asked and it´s always ok. ty :-)
    Lia Rikugun: but bertram has been here beofre :)
    Wol Euler: good :)
    Wol Euler: just checking. I was about to say that I'd translate your words for the record.
    Fefonz Quan: well google translate does a pretty nice job indeed :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i wonder if by checking the accuracy of all the two-languages links, you have a good criteria for how far they are
    Bertram Jacobus: two language links ? what are they , please ?
    Fefonz Quan: i meant all the options of translating from one language to another
    Fefonz Quan: (all the pairs if you like)
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. oke. i see. ty
    Lia Rikugun: brb
    Fefonz Quan fights the urge to write 'ken'
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes my english is not good enough to understand ... sry ...
    Fefonz Quan: just a silly free association to the brbi word
    Lia Rikugun: (back)
    Bertram Jacobus: oh isee lol ty again :o)
    Lia Rikugun: barby
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yesyes
    Fefonz Quan: having someone doubt his english because of me is really ironic :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler laughs
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fefonz Quan: my i bring up a PaB topic? :0


    is irony good or bad in general...?

    Bertram Jacobus: could one say, that irony, in general, is good or bad ? - sry
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes the words in the chat are overlapping ...
    Bertram Jacobus: ups
    Fael Illyar: in general? no.
    Fefonz Quan: i would agree with Fael on that
    Bertram Jacobus: why not ?
    Fael Illyar: depends entirely on the situation.
    Fael Illyar: and what you want to achieve.
    Wol Euler: agreed.
    Bertram Jacobus: hm - i have to think about that ... entirely ? ... hm ... ;-)
    Wol Euler: though I do think it is a pretty weak strategy for dealing with the world
    Fefonz Quan: although i find it is frequently mixed with cynicism, which has some negative influence of ti's own
    Fefonz Quan: its
    Bertram Jacobus: nice - that all what you wrte tends in the direction i felt ... and more - the hint to the motivotion was fine, too. again and again i forget that ... *sigh* ...
    Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fefonz Quan: as a matter of fact sometimes i find it hard to define what exactly irony is
    Fael Illyar: I do find it pretty ironic that being afraid of certain things is the number one way to make them happen.
    Fefonz Quan: similar to doubting the lacebo effect :)
    Fefonz Quan: placebo*
    Bertram Jacobus: isn´t it simple in one way : taking the things conciously in a different way as they are and bringing some humor with that ? ...
    Fael Illyar: yep, being afraid that the pill doesn't work makes that more likely it doesn't :)


    definition of fear and how it affects us, imagined fear and the fear in the actual situation

    Bertram Jacobus: and the thing with the fear : may be, it´s a great force (?) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: big force, powerful i meant
    Fefonz Quan: in a way Bert (for 13:22), though there are humorous ways to look and things that are not irony
    Fael Illyar: fear comes from believing that what you fear will happen.
    Fefonz Quan: and from un-willingness to accept that option
    Bertram Jacobus: yes fefonz, but this specific irony "thing" is linked with this "taking things different as they are" - no ?
    Fefonz Quan: yes Bert, i just noted that i thought this is not enough. there are also different angle to look at things that are not ironic (and still funny:))
    Fefonz Quan: angles*
    Fefonz Quan: Fael, do you think fear can come also in the face of thing that are already happening, or only as a 'future oriented' phenomena?
    Lia Rikugun: intersting question :)
    Fael Illyar: I'd say it comes when things are happening too.
    Lia Rikugun: did you make this experience fael?
    Fael Illyar: but... even so it's anticipation of future.
    Wol Euler: one can definitely fear the future, things that have not happened yet
    Lia Rikugun: because as for me usually when i am in the situation i feared i can think clearly
    Wol Euler: (unless you want a different word for that?)
    Fael Illyar: the fear we imagine is usually worse than the fear of the actual situation.
    Wol Euler: oh yes :)
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Lia Rikugun: yes thats true :)
    Wol Euler: once you are in it, you are often too busy to be afraid
    Fael Illyar: yep, no time to be afraid.


    "fearing a future event is living it multiple times"

    Fael Illyar: In a way, fearing a future event is living it mutiple times.
    Fael Illyar: multiple
    Fefonz Quan: (or in one wrong time - not now :)
    Lia Rikugun: exactly
    Wol Euler nods
    Fael Illyar: I find it a good question to ask "do you truly want to live that moment more than once?"
    Lia Rikugun: this was what we were also talking about in hte time workshopü
    Lia Rikugun: concentrating on the moment right now
    Lia Rikugun: which leads to not thinking too much about the past and the future
    Fael Illyar: I find it's not a bad idea to think of the future (or past) but believing it's what you think it is would be.
    Fael Illyar: recognizing that it's not the future (or past) that you're thinking about but an imagined event that only exists in your thoughts.
    Lia Rikugun: ok but maybe you are spending too much time on thinking about things which are not real
    Lia Rikugun: i am not sure what is best
    Fael Illyar: all thinking is like that.
    Lia Rikugun: some people tend to worry too much
    Fael Illyar: no thinking is real in that sense.
    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    Bertram Jacobus: hello sophia ... :-)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Shopia
    Lia Rikugun: helo sophia
    Wol Euler: ooh, a fae AO :)
    sophia Placebo: yes ^^
    Lia Rikugun: how fancy
    sophia Placebo: AOs are what bring life to ava
    Fefonz Quan: yes nice fairy appearance :)
    Lia Rikugun: i am sorry can i ask you a question: could someone great the newbies because i am feeling very tired and nee dto go to bed
    Fael Illyar: Yes, looks nice :)
    Fael Illyar: sure :)
    Fefonz Quan: sure
    Lia Rikugun: i will put the chat log online tomorrow
    Lia Rikugun: thank you and good night :)
    sophia Placebo: night lia!
    Bertram Jacobus: good night lia !
    sophia Placebo: happy dreams
    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice nite ! :-)
    Fefonz Quan: good night Lia :)
    Wol Euler: goodnight lia, take care
    Fefonz Quan: fdsfasf
    Fefonz Quan: wooh, i have a huge lag.
    Bertram Jacobus: uh. here no lag. strange again and again what sl does ...
    Bertram Jacobus: i appreciate much from the buddhistic teachings. and there is said to the future and past topic, that even from presence one should not make a "thing" ... hm. not easy but sounds very good to me ...


    fear as cause for suffering, people are suffering , Spohia tells us of her suffering from being afraid to be a bad boss

    Fefonz Quan: i believe fear is of the things most driving us and giving us suffering.
    sophia Placebo: true
    Fael Illyar: it is, yes.
    sophia Placebo: im suffering
    Fefonz Quan: can you say more Sophia?
    sophia Placebo: rl stuff , i need to boss many poeple
    sophia Placebo: im not good boss
    Wol Euler nods
    Fefonz Quan: why not?
    Wol Euler: could you learn to be a better one?
    sophia Placebo: i turn to a monester
    Wol Euler: can you see what makes you bad? (assuming for the moment that you are right :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes it do tend to nring that from people
    sophia Placebo: i alwyas do the right thing wol , it is what others do !
    Bertram Jacobus: you tend to what please fefonz ? sry - my imagination is not good enough - did not understand that word ...
    Wol Euler: then why is that your problem?
    sophia Placebo: thats how my ego works anyway
    Bertram Jacobus: nring ?
    Fefonz Quan: (bossing tends too, sorry for teh typoes/syntax)
    Fefonz Quan: (bring)
    Wol Euler: *bring, I thought
    Bertram Jacobus: ah okay ty
    Fefonz Quan: how come others make you a bad boss?
    sophia Placebo: fear of failure is what makes me suffer , i dot like to think as a fauilure and i dont to give that sensation to others whome i would boss , but it is a habit and i keep trying to not bring it up until i explode one day
    Wol Euler frowns
    Wol Euler: there is a difference between failure and correcting mistakes
    Wol Euler: correcting mistakes is "teaching", it's a good thing
    sophia Placebo: to me it is the same at some points of my life
    sophia Placebo: the idea vanish the feelings persists
    Fefonz Quan: and also bringing up things when they are small is easier to handle than accumulating and then bursting off
    Fael Illyar: wouldn't the key be that you deem failure to be unacceptable?
    Fael Illyar: or mistakes?
    Fefonz Quan: also emotionally-wise it works better i found
    sophia Placebo: i know , but fear is still there
    Wol Euler: what exactly do you fear? is it the mistakes or what people might say about them?
    sophia Placebo: what i would do to poepel is what i fear
    Fael Illyar: or is it your own feeling of inadequacy that you fear?
    Bertram Jacobus: what could you do to people if i may ask ?
    sophia Placebo: yes in adequency to boss anybody , except kids
    Wol Euler: hello ari, I was about to IM you :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Ari :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello arisia ... :-)
    sophia Placebo: hi arisia
    Wol Euler: awwww :)
    Arisia Vita: Hi all...
    Fefonz Quan: hi Ari
    sophia Placebo: hmm bert , lots of things
    sophia Placebo: i can go too strict
    Bertram Jacobus: could you give me an example sophia ? i don´t understand yet -
    Bertram Jacobus: ah i see ...
    Bertram Jacobus: ty
    sophia Placebo: or i can go with , do whatever you like
    sophia Placebo: and make the place withoout a boss
    Bertram Jacobus: but you seem to try to make it as godd as you can, don´t you sophia ?
    sophia Placebo: sure
    Fefonz Quan: looks like your employers thought you are adequate for this position
    sophia Placebo: yes fef sadly poepel think im a dequate
    Bertram Jacobus: for me that is the most important thing and all we can do also : to make efforts ... for me that is really satisfying (!) ...
    Fael Illyar: the cause of your behauviour is the fear.
    Fefonz Quan: maybe they saw good skill that you have, but you don't trust those
    sophia Placebo: i told you my fear is my suffering
    Fael Illyar: it is, yes.
    Fael Illyar: and when we're scared, we tend to try to scare others into not doing whatever it is we're scared of.
    sophia Placebo: true


    accept the possibility of failure

    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes a good method is, to set the contrary, even when it may feel very artifical at the beginning of such a practis. here the contrary would be faith ...
    Bertram Jacobus: practice
    Fefonz Quan: and also accepting the fact that failure is possible, but it is just another option
    Fael Illyar: my own way of dealing with fear is that once I know what I fear, I set to making it so I can live with myself even if what I fear happens.
    sophia Placebo: fauiler is not another option
    Fefonz Quan: yes, that's what i meant too fael
    sophia Placebo: another result maybe
    Wol Euler: there is a difference between "failure" and "mistake" though
    Fael Illyar: but, that is not because I'm expecting to fail. That's a way to avoid failing.
    Wol Euler: failure is a judgement, and a terribly harsh one.
    Fefonz Quan nods to Fael
    Wol Euler: a mistake is just a fact
    sophia Placebo: everything has an end so this fear is to end one day
    Wol Euler: why do you judge yourself so harshly?
    sophia Placebo: i dont
    Wol Euler: sommebody does, you keep using that word...
    Fael Illyar: yes you do, otherwise you wouldn't be so afraid.
    Fael Illyar: The courage to be is the courage to accept oneself, in spite of being unacceptable - Paul Tillich
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)
    Arisia Vita: welcome gen
    Wol Euler: hello gen
    genesis Zhangsun: hey off to my workshop :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello genesis ... :-)
    sophia Placebo: well i know what im good at and what im not , and bossing is not my thing , it is just they got shortage in staff this time and im bossing even bigger number
    sophia Placebo: hi Gen
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Gen
    sophia Placebo: anyway thanks for your patient on my rant
    Bertram Jacobus: thanks for YOUR openness sophia (!) ...
    sophia Placebo: i better be off to sleep , night all
    Fael Illyar: good night Sophia :)
    Fefonz Quan: Thanks Sophia, and Good night
    Bertram Jacobus: i wish you the very best ...
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)
    Wol Euler: agh, the lag monster bit me and I didn't see Sophia's goodbye
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)


    leaving to kira cafe...

    genesis Zhangsun: can't seem to get in to the kira cafe
    Fael Illyar: ah :)
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Bertram Jacobus: since i have a new computer, the lag monster doesn´t bite me (lol) very often anymore ... :-)
    Fael Illyar: Well, I'll move to Kira Cafe now :)
    Arisia Vita: I will head for Kira and see if I can help gen...
    Bertram Jacobus: bye arisia then ...
    Fael Illyar: See you later everyone who is not following :)
    Wol Euler: see you there
    Bertram Jacobus: bye fael ...
    Wol Euler: goodnight fef, bertram
    Fefonz Quan: b ye Fael
    Fefonz Quan: nite Wol
    Bertram Jacobus: good night wol - and ty all
    Bertram Jacobus: what is this cafe fefonz ? :-)
    Fefonz Quan: the Kira cafe?
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. i already saw it in your profile now ...
    Bertram Jacobus: yes, but i got it already thanks
    Fefonz Quan: so you know about that organization?
    Fefonz Quan: i can tell you more if you like
    Bertram Jacobus: do you have a scientific profession, too ?
    Fefonz Quan: i am a physicist by education, and in the last 15 years works in the industry, mostly image processing and algorithms stuff
    Fefonz Quan: and you?
    Bertram Jacobus: okay ... most people here seem to have such professions, right ?
    Fefonz Quan: not sure
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. i have a heavy vita - took drugs since i was 14. and so i fell out of my parents house - father was a journalist - and was "socially flattend" - like broschures call that. now i´m a courier driver ...
    Fefonz Quan: what is a courier?
    Bertram Jacobus: ehm - let me see - my dictionary ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: messenger ?
    Fefonz Quan: i see you are an SL veteran :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i drive with a car and bring mostly papers from people to others ... as a part of a worldwide net ...
    Bertram Jacobus: veteran would be a bit too much said i gues ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: guess
    Bertram Jacobus: and my profile ... i should overwork it once a bit ...
    Fefonz Quan: well 2.5 years - not sure how far it can get
    Bertram Jacobus: eternal ? ... ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: in SL? i would be surprise if it gets more tha 4 years back
    Bertram Jacobus: ah i see. i meant in the future direction ...
    Fefonz Quan: hehe, who knows ?
    Bertram Jacobus: but in the direction of past ... i don´t know how long it already exists ...
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s it ! :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: but i made big pauses in sl, too ... here and there ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and i don´t use it so excessive some like - yes, one must say for sake - addicted persons ...
    Fefonz Quan: i see. i use it only for Kira and PaB actually, so my business here is considered quite narrow :)
    Bertram Jacobus: so many variations ! ... to use it ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: "okay" - i´d like to leave for the moment. ty for your time. always nice to talk with people ...
    Fefonz Quan nods.
    Fefonz Quan: good night.
    Bertram Jacobus: godd night to you too fefonz :-)

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