2009.07.25 01:00 - "The Mirror"

The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are by Scathach Rhiadra.

This was to be a long interesting session, with just three of us present; Bertram (Jacobus), Pema and me.  After some small talk about displaying foreign language characters in labels, the discussion began in earnest; starting and ending with PaB and the 9-second practice, by way of Namkhai Norbu and the 'If' koan........

Bertram Jacobus: hi scathach :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello bertram
--BELL--
Scathach Rhiadra: How are you today?
Bertram Jacobus: i wanted to ask the same ... :-) - ty, fine and you ? :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: fine too, thank you:)
Bertram Jacobus: do you live in japan ?
Scathach Rhiadra: no, in Ireland
Bertram Jacobus: oh ok - i thought because of your title - i see only sqares there ... like when people have japanese letters ...
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, it is Tibetan
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - that´s wonderful ! is there a way, that i could see them as real letters, too ?
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, do you have Vista?
Bertram Jacobus: no xp
Scathach Rhiadra: I'm not sure how you would install a Tibetan keyboard, on vista, the keyboards come with the OS, you just add them
Bertram Jacobus: what is OS please ?
Scathach Rhiadra: and that is what I think allows you to se the fonts
Scathach Rhiadra: Operating system
Bertram Jacobus: okay. so i have enough ideas, how i can try to solve that thing ... ty :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: good:)
Bertram Jacobus: and what does that title say please ? if i may ask (?) ...
Scathach Rhiadra: nang-ba, means Buddhist
Bertram Jacobus: whaow. very nice :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: actually it is one of the few words that can be written with SL chat or text input, it has no vowel signs or subjoined or superscribed letters, which SL cannot handle!
Bertram Jacobus: i see
Scathach Rhiadra: so your title Bertram, is some type of traveler?
Bertram Jacobus: no, it´s a "idea or creation of my own". it means as much as "man on the ways of salvation" ...
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, very good:)
Bertram Jacobus: ty. i love it too i have to admit ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: especially that i found words for it ...
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Bertram Jacobus: i looked a long time for it, may be that were even years (!) ...
Scathach Rhiadra: the title or the path?
Bertram Jacobus: i meant now the title, but the path too took already a long time. an even longer time when i think correct :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it does not seem to have a beginning or end sometimes
Bertram Jacobus: "absolutely" ! :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: so is there any topic you would like to discuss?
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: i´m not sure. i have no spontaneous idea - do you have one or something ?
Scathach Rhiadra: no not really:)

Bertram asks about PaB, and Pema joins us......

Bertram Jacobus: but now ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: yes : i would like to know more about the project here - do you participate already for a long time ?
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, sinse November I think
Scathach Rhiadra: since*
Bertram Jacobus: oh. that´s not a short time , relatively - to mine for example
Bertram Jacobus: and how would you describe the project ? how do you understand it and its porposes ?
Scathach Rhiadra: well, for me it is the 9-second micro-meditations that are important, I think
Scathach Rhiadra: I find they give a great continuity of practice throughout the day
Bertram Jacobus: i see. and can imagine that very well. and you try to do them or you do that every 15 minutes ?
Scathach Rhiadra: they are very short, but do allow one to stop and be present with whatever is there right at that moment
Bertram Jacobus: hello pema - very pleased to meet you agin :-)
Pema Pera: Hi there, Bert and Scathach!
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, if you try to keep to the 15 mins, or 30 mins even, one has come before the last has worn off, if that makes sense
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
Bertram Jacobus: sorry, sometimes my english is not good enough : what does "one has come before the last has worn off" ? could you say that in other words again perhaps please ? :-/
Bertram Jacobus: or explain ?
Scathach Rhiadra: a short note so far:)
Scathach Rhiadra: sorry, not a very good explaination!
Pema Pera: (thanks for the note, Scathach!)
Bertram Jacobus: i think, i´m getting it just now ... :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: if you stop every 15 minutes, the experience of presence you feel carries over into your everyday activities, so to speak, for a little while anyway
Scathach Rhiadra: so with such a short time between the 15 minutes they seem to run into each other
Bertram Jacobus: and is it crazy if i say that i have the impression, telepathy may be a real as least latent ability of men ? ...
Bertram Jacobus: yes ! i really got that now already while you still were explaining , i mean writing that ...
Bertram Jacobus: and such things happen very often to me ...
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Bertram Jacobus: sorry : i meant humans, not men
Scathach Rhiadra nods:)
Bertram Jacobus: also i learn here some more english and like that very much ...
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, always good to learn:)
Bertram Jacobus: yeah
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: but ... may be "an end of learning" could be interesting, too ? i mean, in a spiritual way ?
Scathach Rhiadra: like non-meditation maybe
Bertram Jacobus: sorry : now i switched on the sound - so the bell, too ...
Bertram Jacobus: will do that regulary in future ...

I had just read the log of Pema's session with Gen 'The If Koan', and was facinated with the mention of Namkhai Norbu; the Dzhogchen master.  More than twenty years ago (as it turns out about the time Pema met him in Japan!), I came across a book of his teachings, 'The Crystal and the Way of Light'.  An article included as an Appendix to the book, called 'The Mirror: Advice on presence and awareness' had a particular influence on my practice, and indeed still does.  (For anyone interested this article is now available online: http://www.dzogchen.sk/texty/MirrorAdvice.html ).  Bertram had a connection with Namkhai Norbu too......

Scathach Rhiadra: so Pema, I read the log of your chat with Gen, and saw the bit about Namkhai Norbu:)
Pema Pera: yes, Scathach?
Scathach Rhiadra: you studied with him, how was that?
Pema Pera: Namkhai Norbu is one of the most impressive people I've ever met
Pema Pera: perhaps the most impressive
Bertram Jacobus: i saw namkhai norbu only a few weeks ago here in cologn where i live ...
Pema Pera: lucky you!
Pema Pera: We're all lucky that he's still alive
Pema Pera: I first went to a workshop by him in Japan twenty years ago
Bertram Jacobus: cologne*
Pema Pera: Did you see him long enough to get an impression, Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: hm. yes and i´m very sorry to say, that he for me did not appear as so impressive ... :-( - but ! :
Pema Pera: and to answer your question, Scathach: meeting Namkhai Norbu is like meeting someone who is "simply there"
Pema Pera: very hard to describe
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Bertram Jacobus: i think, it´s ALSO very personally, who and what fits to oneself and doubtless he is a big master who i accept and honour ...
Pema Pera: he indeed looks extraordinary ordinary :)
Pema Pera: no airs at all
Bertram Jacobus: and may be i would experience more with him i would get stronger impressions
Pema Pera: talks about the nature of reality the way we talk about the weather
Pema Pera: yes, no doubt, Bert
Pema Pera: we are so used to try to look for something special, magical perhaps, romantic, charismatic . . . .
Pema Pera: he just is
Pema Pera: nothing special
Bertram Jacobus: "but" - i also am very pleased about all he teaches and the nyingma way ...
Pema Pera: but when you can also just be, in his presence, a lot opens up
Scathach Rhiadra: yes I read his book about 20 years ago, it made a very big impression on me, still does!
Pema Pera: in a big room with many new people, it may be hard to tune into what he is doing/being/representing
Pema Pera: but if you are in a smaller group, in a workshop setting, and just sit with him, it can be really amazing
Bertram Jacobus: there are so many good teachers and people nowadays available. it´s impossible to bail out all. really in this way a blessed time
Pema Pera: just to see him commune with whatever he communes with, a wider sense of presence, the way we commune with a glass of water or a piece of bread
Pema Pera: yes, Bert, it's up to us to be ready, to open up for all that is now available
Bertram Jacobus: yes. i can imagine that very well
Bertram Jacobus: but isn´t that also a miracle ? : how we are taught, that it WAS our mind, what we experience ? also with persons ?
Pema Pera: when Namkhai Norbu gazes up into space, you can feel that the whole group enters a different realm with him -- that sounds mystical and strange perhaps, but the strangest thing is that it is not strange at all, but really ordinary
Bertram Jacobus: upw was*
Bertram Jacobus: i see what you mean
Bertram Jacobus: and have no doubt at all
Pema Pera: usual explanations won't work, Bert, because the logic we use doesn't apply -- that was the topic of my talk with Gen
Pema Pera: btw, Scathach, did that talk made any sense?
Pema Pera: about the "if"?
Pema Pera: Bert, Scathach was talking about http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.23_7%3a00_The_%22If%22_Koan
Bertram Jacobus: ty
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, though I have not read TSK yet, I will keep that in mind when I do:)
Pema Pera: it's not necessary, but it may be interesting
Bertram Jacobus: what is TSK, please ?
Pema Pera: Time, Space, Knowledge
Bertram Jacobus: okay
Pema Pera: the title of a book by Tarthang Tulku, a Nyingma Lama
Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. i know hie name ... :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: I had to order it from UK, so am waiting for the delivery:)
Bertram Jacobus: his*
Bertram Jacobus: i write like a horse sry ;o)
Pema Pera: http://www.amazon.com/Time-Space-Knowledge-Reality-Psychology/dp/0913546089
--BELL--

After the bell we get back to the topic of 'if', and 'seeing is enough'......

Scathach Rhiadra: getting back to the 'if'
Pema Pera: yes, my favorite topic :)
Bertram Jacobus: and the "if talk" ? did it make sense ? as pema asked ? would be interesting for me too. i hope, i understand that right ... talking just about an "if" ? :-)
Bertram Jacobus: lol - it fits :-)
Bertram Jacobus: how nice
Scathach Rhiadra: I always find that when people use that word a lot, it is like saying that something can be talked about, and maybe 'could' be done, but not very likely
Pema Pera: Bert, the first idea is "seeing is enough" -- no need to do/reach/figure out something; then the second idea is: there is no need to add an "if" -- not "if you see, that is enough"
Bertram Jacobus: ok
Pema Pera: from one point of view, it seems that we don't (yet) see, and we have to somehow learn to see
Pema Pera: from a more radical point of view, nothing needs to be learned, reached, added . . . .
Pema Pera: BUT we have to be VERY clear what that means, otherwise we're talking nonsense!
Bertram Jacobus: i know : for example psycologists say we would more think than see (!) or experience ...
Bertram Jacobus: and that would be a newer phenomenon. was not always like that
Scathach Rhiadra: and an intellectual understanding is not 'seeing'!
Pema Pera: definitely not :)
Bertram Jacobus: yes. no. :-)
Pema Pera: but real seeing doesn't exclude an additional intellectual component
Scathach Rhiadra nods, definitely
Scathach Rhiadra: the intellectual component can give some framework
Pema Pera: Until now I think I have talked very very little about the "if" . . . . since it is so easy to misunderstand, to say "ah, nice, I get some sense, let me try to copy that" -- and then one can become a parrot :-)
Pema Pera: and that would be a great pity
Bertram Jacobus: i asked already scathach, may i ask you here in this today small round, whta the project here means to you pema. how you would describe the porpose and your personally impression of all that here ?
Bertram Jacobus: sry
Bertram Jacobus: i did not want to mix up the topics
Pema Pera: no purpose
Pema Pera: that's the point of the "if" session :-)
Pema Pera: and I mean that seriously
Scathach Rhiadra: seeing is enough:))
Pema Pera: perhaps a kind of purpose, namely to see that any thought of a purpose is misleading
Bertram Jacobus: simply being ?
Pema Pera: YES, Scathach, really!

...and personal experience......

Pema Pera: you could say "simply being" but the question is that what that means for you
Pema Pera: it can mean so many things . . . and it is easy to take it in too superficial a way
Pema Pera: so let's go very very very slowly
Bertram Jacobus: in the last time ... i come back to simplicity. and from that state of view simply being is nearly not to be misunderstandable. is that an answer ?
Pema Pera: and not say "yeah, I've heard about that, and got some sense, that's nice"
Pema Pera: but let's REALLY dig in, carefully
Pema Pera: perhaps we can start, Bert, with you describing more about how that felt
Pema Pera: what happened
Bertram Jacobus: what please ? the simply being ? how that feels ?
Bertram Jacobus: do you mean that ?
Pema Pera: or perhaps even better, let's try to explore it right now right here, the "simply being"
Pema Pera: yes
Bertram Jacobus: great
Bertram Jacobus: one could say so much, for example "flowing with the things" ...
Pema Pera: perhaps you can express right now how you feel, what happens, what appears for you, at this moment
Pema Pera: here you are trying to "just be", now what?
Bertram Jacobus: feeling free and without contradictions, at least without final contradictions ...
Pema Pera: no speculation, only observation
Pema Pera: no need for interpretation, just description
Pema Pera: no thinking, only seeing
Bertram Jacobus: okay. it´s a bit sentimental, but when i express it spontaneous, it feels like home at the moment here ...
Pema Pera: fine to be sentimentall, whatever comes up!
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: so please express :)
Pema Pera: and please continue
Bertram Jacobus: that´s already the whol expression ...
Pema Pera: there are only three of us, so you can describe as much as you want
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: again and again then comes ... a kind of wonderful nothing ...
Bertram Jacobus: and i hear, see, feel ... my six senses work, are in motion, sometimes more, sometimes less ... so all simply happens ...
Bertram Jacobus: i communicate ...
Bertram Jacobus: thats all
Pema Pera: thanks, Bert, that's a very lively way of reporting!
Pema Pera: Now how about watching your own thoughts appear?
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Pema Pera: shall we all do that for just one minute?
Bertram Jacobus: yes we can ;-)
Pema Pera: Just watching our thoughts af if we have never seen thoughts before?
Pema Pera: I'll keep time -- let's start now
Pema Pera: ding dong :)
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: (the witch is gone)
Bertram Jacobus: :o)
Pema Pera: so what happened, Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: a lot of thoughts ...
Bertram Jacobus: of various kind
Bertram Jacobus: i have the impression, i don´t have to observe them. why did you propose that ?
Pema Pera: let's try to do it again, but this time let's especially try to watch the way a new thought appears
Pema Pera: where does it come from, how does it appear?
Pema Pera: as for "why" to do this:
Pema Pera: most just to explore, to become friends with our own thoughts, to appreciate them
Pema Pera: simply: to see
Pema Pera: shall we take another minute?
Pema Pera: and then just look at the very first thought that comes up
Bertram Jacobus: it´s okay for me :-)
Pema Pera: watching the arising
Pema Pera: and then the next one, and the next, as slowly and carefully as we possibly can
Pema Pera: well, let's start again!
Pema Pera: dong ding :)
Pema Pera: how was that, Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: again that wre many
Bertram Jacobus: and the question where they come from is not completely to solve for me till now
Bertram Jacobus: or where they go to
Bertram Jacobus: and it was okay
Bertram Jacobus: (besides : it would be good, if you had the writing animation on i think - i was ased myself before to switch it on again. so the others see, that one is writing - only a very shy remark) ...
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: it has pros and cons -- and I dont' mind at all if others write before me -- nothing of what I am trying to say is particularly important :)
Bertram Jacobus: lol okay :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: I love to hear what you have to say, seriously
Bertram Jacobus: what are the cons ? may i ask ?
Pema Pera: oh, that you stop the other from being more spontaneous
--BELL--
Pema Pera: I am really happy to see you expressing yourself so well
Pema Pera: that's the center point of Play as Being, to express ourselves for each other
Bertram Jacobus: okay. that is a nice argument :-)
Pema Pera: now the next point is to slow down, and eventually to "stop"
Pema Pera: but let's begin with slowing down
Bertram Jacobus: and i´m very happy having found this great project and it´s contributants
Pema Pera: to answer in a different way your question of "what is the project here"
Bertram Jacobus: and creators ...
Pema Pera: I could also say "to learn to slow down to the point of stopping and dropping all of our habits"
Pema Pera: it's very funny and counter-intuitive
Pema Pera: normally we consider any path to be something we'd like to transverse swiftly
Pema Pera: we like to speed up, get in higher gear, not just walk, but run, race, take a car, a plane, a rocket
Pema Pera: but in exploring the Being of the world, what is, it's the opposite
Pema Pera: we have to learn to downshift
Pema Pera: to lower and lower gears, lower than we ever thought possible
Pema Pera: you can't find a lost key in the desert sands by flowing low over it in a jet plane
Pema Pera: so to get used to this slowing down, I find the looking for the origin of thoughts a very helpful exploration
Pema Pera: if you like, perhaps you could spend some time doing that, over the next few days
Pema Pera: maybe even ten minutes at a time or longer
Pema Pera: I'm often here at the 1 am, 7 am, and 7 pm sessions, not always but about half the time
Pema Pera: so when you come back a few times, you'll soon see me again, and I'd love to hear what you find when you slow down more
Pema Pera: feel free to send me an IM too, to synchronize when we come in
Pema Pera: or email me at "piet@ias.edu"
Bertram Jacobus: i think, that will all be possible with the meetings but
Bertram Jacobus: i experience often strong resistances when i try to practise spiritual works ...
Pema Pera: don't call it spiritual works
Pema Pera: look at your thoughts the way you look out the window,
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: nothing spiritual about thoughts, really!
Bertram Jacobus: i mean that in a very simply way : spirit or brain - what he "does" : thinking for example ...
Pema Pera: we all think thoughts
Pema Pera: we all forget to look at them
Pema Pera: a very curious way of walking with our eyes closed
Bertram Jacobus: when i do it, i often get very heavy feelings
Bertram Jacobus: like i would get ill
Pema Pera: that's fine, just watch the heavy feelings arise
Bertram Jacobus: ok. as long as i can
Pema Pera: whatever feeling wants to arise is fine, no need to judge them
Pema Pera: sure you can :-)
Pema Pera: just don't make it complicated
Bertram Jacobus: but pain is not so easy to bare !
Pema Pera: why would it be painful to just watch your own thoughts?
Pema Pera: whatever thought that wants to come up?
Bertram Jacobus: it IS painful in my experiences . i don´t know why :-(
Pema Pera: that is a GREAT observation, Bert!
Pema Pera: You just expressed the key to freedom
Pema Pera: you have named the reason of why we don't want to see the obvious, "what is"
Pema Pera: because we are afraid that it is painful . . . . we'd rather lose ourselves in distractions
Pema Pera: Thank you for expression that so clearly!
Pema Pera: seeing is enough
Pema Pera: once you REALLY see that, you can work with it
Bertram Jacobus: it is like there were guards who don´t want that i enter the center of - all ...
Pema Pera: YES
Pema Pera: and please continue to acknowledge that!
Pema Pera: You're talking about how it really feels for you, with is a wonderful start
Pema Pera: the next step is to keep looking, to see whether it remains that way.
Bertram Jacobus: ok
Pema Pera: 1) when I try to watch a thought arising, it is often painful -- okay, noted.
Pema Pera: 2) let me try to get the courage to keep doing it, to see whether that painful aspect may change -- do I have the courage to do so?
Pema Pera: Perhaps we can all help each other with step 2)
Pema Pera: and please, do feel free to IM or email me about that, any time
Bertram Jacobus: it´s not so much a question of courage, it´s more a question of : can i really bare it ?
Pema Pera: well, you can try, with small steps
Pema Pera: each time you feel you can't, just let go and relax
Bertram Jacobus: yes. i like to try. again and again
Pema Pera: and perhaps the next time you can try for a few more seconds
Bertram Jacobus: yes
Pema Pera: Just start with, say, 9 secons
Pema Pera: *seconds :-)
Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: then 15, 20, 30
Pema Pera: or back to 9 again
Pema Pera: don't force yourself
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: may be, then and now, 10 minutes or how long ever could be possible too
Pema Pera: But I'm so pleased that you both SAW point 1) and could TALK about -- now that you have opened the door of 1) you can swifly get into 2). The problem very often is that we try to start with 2) without acknowledging 1). And then it can take a very very very long time to make any progress at all with 2). To sum up: congratulations on having found 1) !!
Pema Pera: 1): noting your resistance; 2) gently see whether that is really a barrier or not
Bertram Jacobus: okay ... i should leave now. some things to do here (nice things, visitors will come and so on) ... :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: sounds great -- thanks for joining us again, Bert!
Pema Pera: Thank you too, Scathach!
Scathach Rhiadra: thank you for the great discussion, Bertram and Pema
Scathach Rhiadra: have a good day:)
Bertram Jacobus: i thank you too both. appreciate it here VERY much - ty again and have a graet time please till next time, when ever that will be :o)
Pema Pera: bye Bert!
Pema Pera: thanks!

Bertram leaves and Pema and I stay a while discussing fear or 'fear of fear', and what can hold us back or be an obstacle to 'seeing'......

Pema Pera: I'm really pleased to see Bert's willingness to explore, especially his willingness to acknowledge what is holding him back!
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Pema Pera: whenever we acknowledge what is happening, everything becomes so easy . . . . . it is when we deny, ignore something that things get more than hard, they then become impossible, like trying to drive with the brake firmly pushed down
Scathach Rhiadra: that seems to me that he already has some experience of exploring
Pema Pera: clearly!
Pema Pera: the one and only danger is firmly acknowledging the obstacles that you encounter is that you may conclude that you can't overcome them, taking them too seriously, not seeing their illusory nature . . . . we'll have to see what happens in Bert's case
Pema Pera: *of firmly
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, we can give too much um, solidlity, for want of a better word, to our thoughts and experiences, sometimes
Pema Pera: make that "all the time!" :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: like they are fixed in stone,
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: we scare ourselves
Pema Pera: fear of fear is the problem
Scathach Rhiadra: not the arisings that they are
Pema Pera: fear is fine
Pema Pera: just fear
Scathach Rhiadra: and the you drop the fear too..
Scathach Rhiadra: then*
Pema Pera: yes, fear just comes and goes, like any emotion or thought -- fear of fear is much more sticky
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Pema Pera: and the whole discussion today has everything to do with the "if" that you brought up early on -- do you see a connection?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I think so, 'if I could not fear', and just do it...
Scathach Rhiadra: always putting a condition on just seeing
Scathach Rhiadra: or looking for a guaranteed result
Pema Pera: yes, and that way of saying it would posit that there are two ways, perhaps you can perhaps you cannot, and the if being the hinge between them -- and that makes things hard
Pema Pera: now when we start with "seeing is enough"
Pema Pera: we can say "I don't care, ultimately:
Pema Pera: -- a very radical, ferociously radical stance
Pema Pera: "I don't care whether or not I see"
--BELL--
Pema Pera: Being sees. I play as Being. I'm exploring the hypothesis that Being is playing me playing Being. And according to that hypothesis, Being in pretending to not see still sees . . . . so to really explore that hypothesis fully 100%, I can make such a furiously radical statement . . . .
Pema Pera: *is pretending
Pema Pera: oops, wrong, it was correct: *in pretending
Pema Pera: but now we are talking about walking on the edge of a knife . . . . .
Scathach Rhiadra: present awareness, nothing added or subtracted, just what is
Pema Pera: yes, and not sullying it by wondering whether it is good enough . . .
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: Thanks again, Scathach, what a great session!
Scathach Rhiadra: yes it was, great to see you here!
Pema Pera: till next time!
Scathach Rhiadra: have a good day Pema, Namaste
Pema Pera: you too, Scathach!