2009.07.25 07:00 - On Thoughts Arising -Exercise-

The Guardian for this meeting was sophia Placebo. The comments are by sophia Placebo.

I arrived late ,thanks for Scathach i showed up  today to the session . Nymf Qt and Scathach were already there ,Eos joined just as the moment i pop in .I think this session has something to do with the other session named Mirror http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.25_01%3a00_-_%22The_Mirror%22

Nymf Hathaway: Hello Qt :)
Qt Core: Hi nymf
Qt Core: hi scatach
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Scathach, nice to see you again :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Qt, Nymf:)
Scathach Rhiadra: how are you both today?
Nymf Hathaway: Doing well, thanks and you?
Scathach Rhiadra: fine thanks
Qt Core: a little off, some jat lag issue, you ?
Scathach Rhiadra: were you travelling Qt?
Qt Core: yes, went to ro far east to ... not see the eclipse and some turism
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, nice!
Scathach Rhiadra: how was the eclipse?
Scathach Rhiadra: oh, just saw your comment:(
Qt Core: :-) we wewre not able to avoid clouds and rain even being on a ship
Scathach Rhiadra: was the tourism at least good?
Qt Core: 8i'm on my laptop... more spelling error than usual incoming)
Qt Core: yes, it make the trip worth evel losing is main target
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
sophia Placebo: Hi !
--BELL--

We start talking about sleep and appreciating the amount of sleep a person needs and wondering why one would needs 1/3 of his life to be spent sleeping!

Nymf Hathaway: Hi Sophia :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello sophia, Eos!
sophia Placebo: sorry for being terribly late
Qt Core: i think i'll read the chatlogs, do you know if something big happened ?
Qt Core: np, we enjoyed some silence
Qt Core: hi sophia, eos
sophia Placebo: How are you all ?^^
Scathach Rhiadra: fine thanks, and you?
sophia Placebo: alive :)
Qt Core: sleepy, you ?
sophia Placebo: i took a nap at work ^^
Eos Amaterasu: alifing this morning
Qt Core: interesting jop procedures :-)
sophia Placebo: lol
Qt Core: job*
Eos Amaterasu: funny that we dip into sleep
sophia Placebo: it was some deep refreshing nap , maybe like 5 to 10 mints
Qt Core: (one of the most important human activities)
Scathach Rhiadra: nearly one-third of life is spent asleep
sophia Placebo: yes
sophia Placebo: and we wake up ...
Qt Core: we have quite slow recharching batteries, we may should try better ones :-)
Eos Amaterasu: What is it that is being recharged?

Pema showed up and suggested a great exercise  90 seconds of observing the thoughts as they arise

Nymf Hathaway: Good day Pema :)
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
sophia Placebo: Hi Pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
Qt Core: us, body and mind
Eos Amaterasu: Hi!
Pema Pera: quite a crowd for a Saturday morning!
Qt Core: hi Pema
Nymf Hathaway: Needs to leave already, wishing everyone a nice meeting
Pema Pera: bye Nymf!
sophia Placebo: bye nymf
Qt Core: bye Nymf
Pema Pera: Did you start a topic already?
Scathach Rhiadra: bye nymf, take care
sophia Placebo: we were trying to find one
Pema Pera: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: sleep & recharging
Pema Pera: Scathach and I did an interesting experiment, six hours ago, with Bertram Jacobus
Pema Pera: spending a minute to watch how thougths arise
Pema Pera: I'm sure you've done that, Eos!
Pema Pera: (almost sure :-)
sophia Placebo: did it work ?
Eos Amaterasu: I was one of those thoughts :-)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: well, something happened, Sophia, that is close enough for it to "work" :-)
Pema Pera: these explorations are open ended.
Pema Pera: So the idea was to just watch your own thoughts, as if seeing them for the first time
Pema Pera: trying to watch where they come from
Pema Pera: how they arise
Qt Core: have to gp, have fun!
Pema Pera: and how the disappear, if you like -- but with the emphasis on arising
Pema Pera: Bye Qt!
sophia Placebo: bye Qt
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Qt:)
Pema Pera: How about spending our next 90 seconds all doing that
Pema Pera: and then reporting, if we feel like, what we found?
Pema Pera: is the description clear enough?
sophia Placebo: ok sounds like fun
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: (it's really simple in principle!)
Pema Pera: we could start just now, making it two full minutes :)
--BELL--

Results of the meditation report: Sophia's catched thoughts

Pema Pera: How did it go? did anyone catch a thought :>)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
sophia Placebo: hmm
Scathach Rhiadra: too quick!
Pema Pera: or did thought catch you, more likely (unaware)
sophia Placebo: i trace where thoughts arise from
sophia Placebo: i was itching so my mind was focused on toucing , i discarded it
sophia Placebo: i heard the fan and discard what ever thought may arise from there
sophia Placebo: i adjust to the invironment and closed my eyes
sophia Placebo: i saw a sea
sophia Placebo: then i was thinking how this image arise
sophia Placebo: i open my eyes and closed them again and saw a green field with a lonly tree
Eos Amaterasu: things arise, attention goes to them, from them; high alert; recharge
sophia Placebo: then i thought islamic meditation
sophia Placebo: then i the sentence how things work pop up
arabella Ella: hiya
Pema Pera: Hi Ara!
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Ara
sophia Placebo: and finally i was thinking should i report that im not sure if i was astonished about my thoughts cause thats how i would feel if i saw something for the first time :) end
Pema Pera: (Ara, we just did an experiment, watching thoughts arise, for two minutes)
sophia Placebo: Hi ara
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Ara
Pema Pera: thank you very much, Sophia!
Pema Pera: That's a wonderful report, in detail and feeling tone
arabella Ella: ty for explaining Pema :)
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Pema Pera: isn't it nice to specifically focus on thoughts?
arabella Ella: apologies for being so late
Pema Pera: to watch them, to become friends with them?
Pema Pera: to let them be?
Pema Pera: to let images arise, for no reason?
Pema Pera: and just watch it, without judging
Eos Amaterasu: that's the thing, the act of focus is high alert, so there's a play of that & letting be; humor inevitable :-)
Pema Pera: :)
sophia Placebo: :) it was something new to me , i enjoy it thank you
Pema Pera: thank YOU for the great description, which I found very inspiring!
sophia Placebo: yes Eos
Pema Pera: it is easy to comment on an idea, but to give an honest description is much more hard work; I really appreciate it, Sophia

Results of the meditation reports: Pema's catched thoughts

Pema Pera: If I may make an analogy with my work:
Pema Pera: when I was trained as an astronomer, of course I had to follow a course about building telescopes, how they work, etc
Pema Pera: since if you don't have any idea of how a telescope works, how could you ever use the results obtained by telescopes, the observations, the photographs
Pema Pera: you wouldn't know the limitations, the way light is filtered, etc
Pema Pera: However,
Pema Pera: in daily life, EVERYTHING we ever do and say is based on thoughts
Pema Pera: like astronomy is based on telescopes
Pema Pera: and typically we go through life without ever really inspecting our main instrument, our mind
Pema Pera: what would be more natural to teach children, starting in elementary school, to learn to watch their own thoughts?
Pema Pera: to become familiar with their most important instrument?
arabella Ella: :)
Pema Pera: we live in a REALLY strange world, where the basis of everything at all is ignored almost COMPLETELY
Pema Pera: end of tirade :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Mind Camp
--BELL--

An Insight: the problem is, we tend to mine thoughts, immediately grab the content, almost never appreciating the messenger

sophia Placebo: thats is wonderfull thought!
Scathach Rhiadra: is there not a danger of just becoming facinated with our own thought process, introspection, if we know nothing about awareness?
Pema Pera: it has to be balanced, of course, like any investigation
Pema Pera: but you have to start somewhere
Pema Pera: and why not with your very own thoughts?
Eos Amaterasu: there are heisenbugs in the process :-)
sophia Placebo: Hello Mick
Pema Pera: Hi Mick!
arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya All
Pema Pera: we're talking about watching thoughts arise
Eos Amaterasu: ^_^
Mickorod Renard: sounds nice
Mickorod Renard: thanks Ara
Pema Pera: the problem is, we tend to mine thoughts, immediately grab the content, almost never appreciating the messenger :-)
Pema Pera: or the dynamics of the messenging
Pema Pera: a very impoverished approach
Pema Pera: stripmining our mind . . . .

Thoughts Slavery !!

arabella Ella: do you also think Pema that we tend to underestimate the visual elements in our thoughts and utilise language a bit too much to interpret and rationalise?
arabella Ella: as after all i personally think that thoughts are composed of images
arabella Ella: visual images
Pema Pera: we generally don't even think at all about our thoughts -- we just use them
Pema Pera: like slaves . . . .
Pema Pera: but yes, the visual part is definitely very important
Mickorod Renard: I think I am a slave to my thoughts,,especially at the moment
Pema Pera: if we become friends with thoughts, we can begin to really appreciatie them
Pema Pera: as in "appreciating the presence of appearance" of anything at all, including thoughts
Mickorod Renard: as in app thoughts are light and airy
Mickorod Renard: I find
Mickorod Renard: but other thoughts are lead wieghts
Mickorod Renard: weights
Mickorod Renard: I think because I have missed alot of the Apreciate being meets I have lost the plot
Pema Pera: and yet is is possible to ALSO just watch the heaviness and lightness of thoughts, like an interested bystander, without being pulled along by them
Pema Pera: you can appreciate the message and the messanger, both
Mickorod Renard: that is where I need to be
Pema Pera: but we habitually always tend to focus on the message . . . .
Mickorod Renard: I would be happy with messages if they were all positive
Pema Pera: :)

Self's Mother Watching Self's Baby !

arabella Ella: so instead of focussing on the message ... we should look at the other aspects of the thoughts themselves Pema?
arabella Ella: like a bystander?
Pema Pera: well, let us take what Mick said
arabella Ella nods
Pema Pera: if we watch our own life like reading a novel
sophia Placebo: one cigar wont harm much
Pema Pera: it would be incredibly boring if every page would have all characters thinking positive thoughts!
Pema Pera: all being happy all the time
Pema Pera: yuck
Mickorod Renard: putting oneself in the watchman position tends to give you that impervious sensation,,which is nice,,in my opinion
Pema Pera: it doesn't have to be impervious though
Mickorod Renard: yea,,I have ran out of good cigars,,its torture
Pema Pera: when you really are enjoying a novel, you feel the emotions
Pema Pera: but they don't pull you down, you just enjoy them, fully
Pema Pera: like a mother watching the play of her child
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: nice
Pema Pera: not buying into their stories, yet being fully concerned
Pema Pera: totally engaged with the messenger, the child
--BELL--

A Motherhood moment

Pema Pera: and smiling about the messages, the stories of the child
Pema Pera: if we can watch our own thougths like a mother watching a child, with the love and concern of a mother, what would happen -- shall we try that for a couple minutes? I'm happy to keep the time. Why don't we start right now.
sophia Placebo imagining her self infront of mirror and her reflection telling her '"naah im not buying your story !"
Pema Pera: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: unfortunately, I have to leave, bye all, Namasté
sophia Placebo: bye scath
arabella Ella: ciao Scath
Mickorod Renard: bye Scath
Eos Amaterasu: ~_~
Pema Pera: ding dong :)

Reports of the motherhood moment exercise:Mick's

arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Pema Pera: how was that?
Pema Pera: playing the mother role?
Mickorod Renard: I saw the diference Pema,,but was disapointed at how naughty the child was
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: but good to know!
Mickorod Renard: yes
Pema Pera: and also good to know that that is just the surface
Pema Pera: you can love the child nonetheless
Mickorod Renard: yes,,but I did think that if child was very bad I would as mother be affected
sophia Placebo: me too
Pema Pera: smoking a cigar would be a nono :-)
Mickorod Renard: but otherwise a superb way of feeling the diference
sophia Placebo: i think the mirror was mean , it can show some concern instead of i dont buy your story
Pema Pera: mean?
Eos Amaterasu: momma mirror also accept what your don't want to
arabella Ella: still though the mirror helps you to gain a new perspective doesn't it?
Eos Amaterasu: *accepts
sophia Placebo: hmm harsh ?
sophia Placebo: sure ara im trying to rewrite the chapter to sell it :P
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
arabella Ella nods
Pema Pera: :)
arabella Ella: i think Pema is trying to say our thoughts get us into ruts and tangles and with effort there is a way to shift perspective but one needs practice
arabella Ella: not sure if i am right?
Pema Pera: yes, it is all about a shift in perspective
Pema Pera: in one way standing back to observe, and in another way stepping in lovingly
Mickorod Renard: does this sort of method deal with thoughts thoroughly,,or does it sweep them under the carpet?,,I wonder sometimes if some complaining is a flushing out of sorts?
Pema Pera: a mother stands back from the stories of the child, but really is connected with the child itself, as her own flesh and blood
Pema Pera: before judging thoughts, Mick, it may be a good idea to get to know their dynamics, how they arise, what role they play
Pema Pera: don't you think?
Pema Pera: we normally focus solely on the content, that doesn't seem balanced
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I think that would be wise,,for me
Pema Pera: for anyone, for me for sure !

Reports of the motherhood moment exercise:Sophia's

-intersting after i read the mirror session ,how can metaphores be similar despite space and time-

http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/..._%22If%22_Koan

Pema Pera: Sophia, may I ask how you went from a mother watching to a watching a mirror?
Pema Pera: *to watching
sophia Placebo: it jumped to my mind as you mention 'without buying into their stories " i imagined my self thinking about myself and how things happen to me and how i would give excuses and build a plot that suitsme
arabella Ella: interesting
sophia Placebo: then myself which has external observing exsistance would tell me i dont buy your story
Mickorod Renard: I think in general,,I cope with thoughts in a reasonable way,,and can see that these methods are a good step,,,my issues are more to do with forgivness..a hurdle for many I believe
--BELL--

Mirror or Mother ? which Image override one would use ?

Pema Pera: a mirror would be more mean/harsh perhaps, but a mother would never tell her child "I dont' buy your story", rather the mother would smile with affection and concern for the child while still not buying into its story, but not in a mean/harsh way
sophia Placebo: agree
Eos Amaterasu: also, the mirror accepts what you aren't willing to about yourself
Pema Pera: the mother would also realize that the child *needs* to play with stories in order to grow up
sophia Placebo: but then the child wont re write his story
sophia Placebo: or maybe he will
Pema Pera: when we identify with the mother, we can just let the child play
Pema Pera: and in time the child will grow up
Pema Pera: we don't have to force the child
Pema Pera: we should give it room, that's enough
sophia Placebo: what do you mean Eos ?
Eos Amaterasu: the mirror has no exra commentary
Eos Amaterasu: extra
Mickorod Renard: by giving the child room,,doesnt this run a risk of letting it develope subconciously..into a worse one?
Eos Amaterasu: if you have that kind of experience of being seen/allowed (even by yourself), I've found that's very helpful
sophia Placebo: hmm , i can split myself ,there are always extra commentory
sophia Placebo: after all the mother would be you
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, that's a great point -- and the harshness they you may see in a mirror is your judgment, the mirror is neutral
Eos Amaterasu: you also might find that other in others
sophia Placebo: you just warp it with a motivating image
arabella Ella: the greatest advantage i see is that the mother is you so you know all the intricacies too not like another person would
Pema Pera: yes!
Pema Pera: Mick, giving room is relative -- doesn't mean closing your eyes and giving it carte blanche
Mickorod Renard: mmmm..ok
Pema Pera: there is a need for balance everywhere
Pema Pera: not giving any room would be smothering mother love -- alas that happens all too often . . . .
Pema Pera: or at least often enough that we are all familiar with it
Mickorod Renard: I think I have been stuck in a loop for so long its now like a runnaway train
Pema Pera: Mick, you could try to smile at it, like a mother would smile at a three-year old running in circles, pretending to be a merry-go-round, why not?
Mickorod Renard: I have felt that at times,,and I suspect that would be the answer for me,,I just need to find the strength to maintain doing the smiling

No Strenghth is needed , just love ! And a good start would be to love oneself a bit ! Briliiant men

Pema Pera: no strength is needed, just love
Mickorod Renard: even mothers get tired and weary
Pema Pera: love thy neighbor like thyselves means also: love thyself like thy neighbor
Pema Pera: oh, sure, but they don't lose their love when tired, at most their attention :-)
Pema Pera: we're talking about very different things
Mickorod Renard: yes,,mothers find the strenth for that that they love
Mickorod Renard: I think stim said,,a good start would be in loving oneself a bit
Pema Pera: :-)
arabella Ella nods
Eos Amaterasu: less auto-allergic
Mickorod Renard: he he
Pema Pera: perhaps Eos' mirror may help
Eos Amaterasu: ^_^
Pema Pera: shifting into neutral to drop the self-disapproval first, before shifting into Stim's first gear
Pema Pera: and my mother's image overdrive :-)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Pema Pera: I'd better get some sleep, it's 0:30 am here . . .
sophia Placebo: :)) re image override
Pema Pera: treating myself as a child that has to finally go to bed :)
sophia Placebo: night pema !
Eos Amaterasu: recharge!
Pema Pera: wonderful talking with all of you again!
Mickorod Renard: lol,,nite Pema,,sweet dreams,,thankyou for the chat today
sophia Placebo: ^^ have a nice recharge !
Pema Pera: will do!
arabella Ella: nite Pema
Pema Pera: bfn
sophia Placebo: thanks for excersise
Pema Pera: Sophia, I'd love to hear how it will go if you try and do it a few more times
Pema Pera: either in a future session, or just in an email to the group
Pema Pera: I so much enjoyed your earlier report
sophia Placebo: i'l try to
Pema Pera: it is *hard* to honestly describe what happens in your mind, without trying to judge
sophia Placebo: ty ^^
Mickorod Renard: If you can do it Sophia,,I need your help too
Pema Pera: I was really impressed by how you did that
--BELL--

Teacher and Class Role Play ^^

first : worries are out from window !

Pema Pera: (and please show Mick how to do that :-)
Mickorod Renard: grin
sophia Placebo: well easy ! think not
arabella Ella smiles
Mickorod Renard: I will try some too sophia
sophia Placebo: you would need to be a little bit worrey less
sophia Placebo: to think of nothing at the moment
sophia Placebo: nothing in particular that is
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I get envious of some folk who seem able to let things just wash away,,I am obsessional I think

Second :Judgment is a word, feeling like to judge someone or something is just you so let it be

arabella Ella: see mick ... you are being overly judgemental again ... about yourself ...
sophia Placebo: not easy with kids , but possible if you adjust yourself o it with kids
arabella Ella: it is not easy to suspend judgement about yourself
Mickorod Renard: mmmm..I am sure someone else suggested I was obsesional
sophia Placebo: i judge myself all time , but thats not a worry to me
Mickorod Renard: they were right
arabella Ella: do you believe everything that others suggest?
sophia Placebo: so what if you are obsessional
arabella Ella: should you believe?
sophia Placebo: and stupid and mad person and smelly
Mickorod Renard: I could change
arabella Ella: he he

Third :Each obsession is a ding, a bell, for 9 secs < Eos

arabella Ella: mick sophia is up for a fight with you :)
Mickorod Renard: I dont smell too bad
sophia Placebo: really it is a momnet with yourself as you find it at this moment
sophia Placebo: i cant let the sun rises from west so i cant change lots of what has just happenes and its sequences , that nature and how it works
sophia Placebo: lol ara !
Mickorod Renard: There is some truth in that its only certain times that one tends to feel bad
Mickorod Renard: like many mothers,,focus of when the child does those wonderful things
sophia Placebo: true
Eos Amaterasu: judo: obsession as koan - each obsession a ding, a bell, for 9 secs
sophia Placebo: they want to maintain a wonderfull child all the time
Mickorod Renard: lol,,how do u mean Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: the vividness of the obsession, or concern, or fear or hope, can be a bright signal
Eos Amaterasu: it's juicey and smelly
Mickorod Renard: that sounds promising Eos
Eos Amaterasu: babies like that :-)
Eos Amaterasu: moms allow it
Eos Amaterasu: the 9 secs can be full of stuff

Insight :Negatives as positives<Mick

Mickorod Renard: maybe its another idea,to look at the negatives as positive in that they give more clarity to life
arabella Ella: arent you still judging too much there Mick?
Mickorod Renard: insread of grey old boring perfection
Eos Amaterasu: or both negative and positive coming out of a juicy welling up

Fourth : Play with thoughts < Arabella

arabella Ella: when you should play with your thoughts rather than allow them to take over?
Eos Amaterasu: perfection is not all calmed out
arabella Ella: could rather than should :)
Mickorod Renard: I think I missed some crucial bits in the discussion,,I must read the chat log better

Homework : Prefection

sophia Placebo: you might start with perfection mick
arabella Ella: brb ...
sophia Placebo: construct a dialog or argument btw yourslef and yourself
sophia Placebo: see where that leads you to
--BELL--

An insight from past :Rebirth as perfection

Mickorod Renard: there was a time not so long ago that I felt renewed,like some call reborn,,and that was like perfection,,but I have stained it all up again
arabella Ella: back
Mickorod Renard: hi
sophia Placebo: i g2g , sorry if i rant too much on your head mick , you just said the magical word to my toung -teach- i cant help it
arabella Ella: needed a cold drink we have a heatwave here :)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: you dont rant Sophia
arabella Ella: bye sophia lovely to see you and thanks for your insights
Mickorod Renard: have a good weekend
sophia Placebo: bye all and thanks
Eos Amaterasu: bye.. I am also leaving... bye all
Mickorod Renard: bye Eos
arabella Ella: bye Eos
arabella Ella: i am off too bye
Eos Amaterasu: thanks Mick and Ara & Sophia
Mickorod Renard: me too
Mickorod Renard: thankyou Eos