2009.07.28 07:00 - Assuming around

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Riddle Sideways. The comments are by Riddle Sideways.  The title was added by Riddle too.  I really wonder what it might mean?

    As our play opens Fael is rezing.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Riddle :)
    Riddle Sideways: Good Morning, Fael
    Fael Illyar: interesting group tag :)
    Somehow (lost in the past memories) I got this "honest" tag.  Wonder what it means?
    Riddle Sideways: well, I have forgotten how to change it back to "this"
    Fael Illyar: it's in the communicate window
    Fael Illyar: oh wait... was that only for group IM.
    Fael Illyar: I forget :)
    Fael Illyar: I don't use the official client myself.
    Fael Illyar: I use the old one with a groups button at the bottom
    Fael Illyar: umm old new one :)
    Fael Illyar: new one but with the interface made to look like the old one
    I suggest you reread that last passage.  You might have missed it or need to really get it. :)
    Riddle Sideways: found it...
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Riddle Sideways: Groups rather then profile
    Fael Illyar: I had an interesting realization last night :)
    Riddle Sideways: oo please tell
    Fael Illyar: when I add "I think" or "I suppose" or "I guess" and perhaps some others too into a sentence. It really means "I assume I know I don't know"
    Riddle Sideways: ah
    Fael Illyar: kind of ironic when the reason I started doing so is because I wanted to avoid assuming I know :P
    Riddle Sideways: full circle or you can'tget away
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: I mean... there's knowing, then there's knowing about knowing .. there's no need to know about knowing :)
    Fael Illyar: when you mix the two levels, all the hell breaks loose :)
    Riddle Sideways agrees
    Riddle Sideways: yet, there are so many areas to explore
    Fael Illyar: Yep :)
    Riddle Sideways: knowing. has a period, end of sentence on it
    Riddle Sideways: knowing about knowing is almost final too
    Fael Illyar: yep, that's the effect.
    Riddle Sideways: between is something else
    Riddle Sideways: maybe call it life
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Pema
    Riddle Sideways: welcome
    Fael Illyar: did you read my email?
    Riddle Sideways: nice flip entrance
    Pema Pera: Hi Riddle, and Fael!
    Pema Pera: thanks, Riddle :)
    Pema Pera: And yes, Fael, I read your "flip" email too :-)
    Pema Pera: about assuming
    Fael Illyar: assuming about knowing :)
    Pema Pera: dealing with uncertainty is a rather tricky business in logic . . . .
    Fael Illyar: yes, quite so :)
    Fael Illyar: logic as is can't quite handle it.
    Riddle Sideways: or the set of things that we don't know
    Pema Pera: starting with the a priori assumptions we don't know we're making . . . the very basis for any kind of logic or rational thinking
    Fael Illyar: Hi SophiaSharon :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fael, Pema Riddle :))
    Riddle Sideways: btw, assumsions made on unknowns are unknown themselves. I find that funny
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: why do we assume they're unknown?
    Riddle Sideways: good point
    Riddle Sideways: play with the pointthat they are known
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i think i do that and thats where i get condused :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: confused*
    Fael Illyar: sorry, that refers to which line?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Riddle Sideways: play with the pointthat they are known
    Fael Illyar: Oh.
    Fael Illyar: do you really have to assume one way or the other?
    Fael Illyar: just let it be?
    Riddle Sideways: yes, if the sticky part is the "assume" then takeit out
    Riddle Sideways: if that is hard, then tell yourself it is only for a small time
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Riddle Sideways: then again... if we are happy with the main logic
    Riddle Sideways: and happy with the metalogic
    Riddle Sideways: but the soemwhere
    Fael Illyar: does assumption have to be sticky?
    Riddle Sideways: <bell>
    Riddle Sideways: no
    Riddle Sideways: somewhere between, some fractional between the two realms that we are comfortable with
    SophiaSharon Larnia: things can be interpreted in many ways and not be incorrect
    Riddle Sideways: the set of all things incorrect :)
    Fael Illyar: fractal?
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Fael Illyar: zoom however close you want, always more complexity to be found :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what do you mean Riddle :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: because it is an illusion?
    Riddle Sideways: hard and dlong to explain, but yes
    Fael Illyar: assumption is like drawing the fractal.
    Riddle Sideways: given some illusion, if we zoom in/out it maybe stays illusion
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Riddle Sideways: but, we get pretty pictures
    Fael Illyar: the only way we know to study the fractal is to draw it, yet, that makes it not be fractal anymore.
    Fael Illyar: thus not what we wanted to study, really.
    Riddle Sideways: the math in fractals use their answer as input to the next equation
    Fael Illyar: is there another way?
    Riddle Sideways: thus there is feedback
    Riddle Sideways: think of all the good life gets out of using feedback
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it builds on itself
    Pema Pera: however, the assumptions that really hold us back are typicall quite big, staring us in the face, not deep into fractal land . . . .
    Riddle Sideways: take an experimental step and get feedback
    Pema Pera: like assuming there is a self
    Pema Pera: or that things are really substantial in ways that are unwarranted
    Fael Illyar: is that really holding back?
    Pema Pera: or simply mistaking incompetence for ill will :-)
    Fael Illyar: or just a part of the fractal?
    Pema Pera: holding back in the sense of blocking new avenues to explore
    Riddle Sideways thinks Falnik says "could be"
    Pema Pera: those are often not very subtle
    Fael Illyar: is it a block? or just simply a part of the fractal? they way it progresses.
    Riddle Sideways: your feedback should tell you that
    Pema Pera: I don't see how the metaphor of a fractal helps if you look in the wrong direction to start trying to solve a problem
    Fael Illyar: does it have to help?
    Pema Pera: for example, trying to cover the Earth by leather instead of putting on a pair of sandals :-)
    Fael Illyar thinks she'll give a small pause to this.
    Pema Pera realizes he will give a larger pause to this, given that it is half an hour before midnight here locally :-)
    Fael Illyar: Good night Pema :)
    Pema Pera: see you next time!
    Riddle Sideways: good night, Pema
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema :) take care
    Pema Pera: bye everyone!
    Riddle Sideways: <bell>
    Riddle Sideways: interesting thoughts
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I love your entries in the wiki Roiddle, even the silent ones :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: riddle*
    Fael Illyar remembers how annoying she felt it to be when she was busily trying to weave thoughts and someone was poking at the assumptions she wasn't aware she was making all the time.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Riddle Sideways: ooo, sorry... I had small chats with the listener
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no it is awesome i
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a bit of levity to what could be b o r i n g
    Riddle Sideways: thanks
    Fael Illyar: It's nice to think of something to fill the log.
    Riddle Sideways: but, about this somebody poking at your weaves
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i feel that way all the time Fael, it is good for me to hear it, in my case
    Fael Illyar: I felt like I was poking at Pema's weaves that way.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the weaves have a usefulness, and then are rewoven again
    Riddle Sideways: the feelings are good to explore too. Feeling that the stupi fool was poking an incomplete weave
    Riddle Sideways: of thankful forthe help
    Riddle Sideways: or
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Riddle Sideways: if we weave with obvious assumsions
    Riddle Sideways: holes to others that they need to point out?
    Riddle Sideways: it could be helpful
    Riddle Sideways: then again, maybe we should slap them
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Riddle Sideways: those are just feelings (lengthy other subject)
    Riddle Sideways: but what about weaving thoughts
    Riddle Sideways: with loss threads
    Riddle Sideways: loose
    SophiaSharon Larnia: just because you have to reweave doesnt mean you use all new threads
    Riddle Sideways: true
    SophiaSharon Larnia: canbe same threads in a different pattern
    Riddle Sideways: usually is
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is that were obvious assumptions come in then
    SophiaSharon Larnia: where*
    Riddle Sideways: hard to answer for you
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Riddle Sideways: when are assumsions just trial factors in equations
    Riddle Sideways: place holdders
    SophiaSharon Larnia: optimally, that is good place to start
    Riddle Sideways: a neon green thread to be replaced when we find that correct shae of red
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Riddle Sideways: this weave metaphor is really good
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so where do i find this perfect shade then lol
    Riddle Sideways: given a place of logic and a distant metalogic place. We weave a path, net, fabric, etc. between them?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and if it slides into place, its still an illusion
    Riddle Sideways: Illusion is yet another very lengthy subject
    Riddle Sideways: I assume
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it is taking my breath away, when i let it
    Riddle Sideways: <bell>
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i'm still integrating that everything is appearance
    Riddle Sideways muses over differance between illusion an appearance
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: are they both distortions
    Riddle Sideways: as we were saying that it might be okay to play with distorted threads
    Riddle Sideways: if we register that they might be
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wonders if i should try to drop even that
    Riddle Sideways: sure
    Riddle Sideways: drop or loosen your grip
    Riddle Sideways: like those stray thoughts that come...
    Riddle Sideways: say that was nice, now where was I
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its hard to to become emotioanlly invested in what you are thinking about
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its hard not* to I meant
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ironically, the mindfulness bell on my computer is having the opposite effect on my, I wake up more when i hear it, to be in the present...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: on me*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i wonder if anyone else has had that experience.
    Riddle Sideways: yes, in different words
    Riddle Sideways: funny phrase "waking up"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, it is, I dont know how else to put it, i find that i have zoned out for a minute when caught up in something and the bell redirects my attention toremembering
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so wake up may not be the right word
    Riddle Sideways: <bell>
    Riddle Sideways: please go on assuming to wake up, but dear people I need to go on the another step in RL
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is a reminder to stay in the now, at least the short one on my computer. The 90 sec. here at the pavilion are different.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes bye Riddle :))
    Riddle Sideways: please go on I will read the log
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Fael I have several things to do :)) Talk to you later okay?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Fael <waves>
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