2009.07.28 13:00 - The Missing Screw- Forgivness Eclipsed

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.


    "Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
    Lewis Carroll


    Bertram Jacobus: strange : the bell rang, but there was no text with it ... (?)
    Hana Furlough: strange... i wonder what that means
    Bertram Jacobus: twinkles ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and has no idea about it :-)
    Hana Furlough: how are you today?
    Bertram Jacobus: ty fine. and you ?
    Hana Furlough: pretty swell
    Bertram Jacobus: i have a lot to work at the moment so i'm often a bit exhausted, but not too bad
    Bertram Jacobus: were you already here at this place qt (i'm quite new here) ... :-)
    Qt Core: yes, i've been there many times
    Bertram Jacobus: oh i see - sry please then for my silly question qt ...
    Qt Core: np, bert, you can't know the answers before making questions ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol no . okay . ty qt for your friendly reaction :-)
    Wester Kiranov: there are worse things than the bottom of your screen - I just lost a tiny screw of my glasses. going to look now
    Mickorod Renard: lol..at school all the kids come to me when they do that
    Mickorod Renard: I seem to be mr fix it
    Bertram Jacobus: iihh - i know that with these screws wes - had lost the one or other also already once ...
    Wester Kiranov: well - if you could help me find mine ... ;)
    Hana Furlough: i'll look around for you wester
    Mickorod Renard: maybe u will have to use a bit of wire
    Mickorod Renard: or a paper clip
    Bertram Jacobus: wire is a very useful thing ! ... *grin*
    Mickorod Renard: well,,this is busier than last week
    Wester Kiranov: (still looking)


    Mickorod Renard: hey qt..did u see the eclipse
    Bertram Jacobus: otherwise an optician will help you wester (?) ...
    Qt Core: no, only clouds and rain :-(
    Mickorod Renard: ohh nooooo
    Mickorod Renard: what a downer
    Qt Core: but loved the wholetrip nonetheless
    Mickorod Renard: fantastic
    Bertram Jacobus: where were that qt ? in japan ?
    Qt Core: yes, bert, south (but not enough south) of japan on a cruise
    Bertram Jacobus: not enough in relation to what please qt ?
    Qt Core: another cruise (same cruse company too) 1500 km south of us got to see it, not everything but at least the totality
    Mickorod Renard: did it go very dark though , QT?
    Bertram Jacobus: hello wol ... :-)
    Wester Kiranov: (I'll see you all some time whenI can actually see you)
    Wester Kiranov: bye
    Qt Core: yes, almost night dark with some light on the horizont


    Mickorod Renard: So how was whatever you been up to lately Wol?
    Wol Euler: I was at a RL weddng of SL folk, it was quite wonderful
    Mickorod Renard: great
    Mickorod Renard: was it like you imagined?
    Wol Euler: different in many ways
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Wol Euler: the people were even more wonderful in RL than I knew them to be here.
    Mickorod Renard: thats so nice Wol
    Shyama Sheryffe: did they meet in sl ?
    Wol Euler: yes, indeed thtey did :)
    Mickorod Renard: dangerous place SL..grin
    Wol Euler: made thje jump to RL about a year ago, moved in together six months back
    Wol Euler: quite a wonderful story. They are just absurdly happy
    Bertram Jacobus: lol absurdly happy sounds very funny :-)
    Wol Euler: the wedding was held in their back garden. Afte the vows, we had margaritas, fireworks and waterpistol fights
    Mickorod Renard: he he he ,,incredible
    Shyama Sheryffe: sounds wonderful :)
    Wol Euler: I'm still floating on the happiness of it, nearly two weeks later
    Qt Core: do that here in italy and you get disowned... by both families ;-)
    Hana Furlough: wow that's so nice!
    Mickorod Renard: but it goes to show that having a good interpersonal dialog between two people is maybe more important than just visual attraction
    Wol Euler: oh yes, and the meeting (we called it a "conference" :) proved that too.
    Shyama Sheryffe: how ?
    Wol Euler: there was a moment of oddness, seeing these unknown and unexpected RL meaty avs
    Wol Euler: but that lasted at most a half hour.
    Bertram Jacobus: i made a similar experience : lived together with a "sl girl" in rl too, for about two years
    Mickorod Renard: wow,,bertram
    Hana Furlough: that's great!
    Shyama Sheryffe: smiles amazed
    Qt Core: hi Fael
    Mickorod Renard: hi fael
    Hana Furlough: hi fael
    Bertram Jacobus: hi fael ... :-)
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Hana, Mick, Shyama, Bert,Qt :)
    Wol Euler smiles. Nice one, Bertram
    Wol Euler: hello fael
    Wol Euler: just as it makes no difference whether Ade presents as a lion or a bird or a woman, I found that the meat av was just anohter appearance of the personality that I knew quite well.
    Bertram Jacobus: and it was similar too - as you said absurdly happy - very similar ... a bit ... like irreal
    Shyama Sheryffe: so its kind of meeting on soul level ?
    Shyama Sheryffe: in sl
    Qt Core: it is just more hires drawn with better 3d look and feel ;-)
    Wol Euler: very much so, Shyama. You meet souls here in SL, unencumbered by bodies
    Bertram Jacobus: for me it's more mind level
    Wol Euler: yes, the look and feel of RL is still higher-rez :)
    Hana Furlough: wow that's such a nice comment
    Wol Euler: especially the feel.
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i have spent time with an sl avi in Rl
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: That sounds like my experience too.
    Mickorod Renard: took me about 10 mins to get used to their look
    Fael Illyar: SL avi in RL? how?
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: I mean meet the real person behind the sl avi
    Fael Illyar: ah
    Qt Core: i haven't met yet some sl people in meatspace, but many from other online chats and such and after you recognize the same mind you know there are no more problem
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Shyama Sheryffe: so after 10 min they were like old friends, mick ?
    Mickorod Renard: I guess it works well if you have been honest about your rl age and certain other aspects
    Wol Euler: they ARE old friends, Shyama :) that's the odd and lovely thing.
    Mickorod Renard: yes Shy,,cos the real person shines through image
    Wol Euler: meeting an old friend for the first time
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Mickorod Renard: he he he


    Wol Euler: there was so much hugging going on at hte wedding, it was quite amazing.
    Qt Core: obviously mick, i just met in japan a guy from another online place... i told him he could recognize me as the fattiest in the italian group... he got me immediatly
    Mickorod Renard: ;-
    Mickorod Renard: )
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Bertram Jacobus: lol qt - self irony is so nice ! ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: when one can laugh about himself ...
    Hana Furlough: so wol did you like meeting people in rl or sl better?
    Fael Illyar: only natural to use the best way to identify available :)
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Wol Euler: huh. Strange question.
    Shyama Sheryffe: u seem to be quite slim to me qt ..lol
    Wol Euler: both are good, differently good.
    Bertram Jacobus: giggles ... ;-)
    Hana Furlough: haha nice answer!
    Qt Core: i prefer online ways, you can get past some things that may make you choose to not try to "meet" someone
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I can be judgemental on someones image in RL
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Qt Core: like i don't know, i think i will hardly start a conversation with a deep gothic/hevy metal kind of guy in rl
    Mickorod Renard: wrongly too,,but its just my nature
    Fael Illyar: yep, I'd say the same. Both are god, in different ways
    Fael Illyar: Qt would you in S?
    Fael Illyar: SL
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, the happy couple would never have met in RL. Even had thtey sat beside each other for 13 hours in an airplane, they would not have spoken because they seem to belong to entirely different tribes
    Qt Core: on the other way i may feel shy to approach a supermodel kind of girl in rl ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats true of me too
    Mickorod Renard: would still do it ,,but would be shy
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Hana Furlough: out of batteries in RL
    Mickorod Renard: lol
    Wol Euler: that is good Mick :) women like to see a man taking a risk.
    Mickorod Renard: I only take bad risks
    Wol Euler: ah.
    Shyama Sheryffe: lol
    Qt Core: than there is the language problem, many non native english speaker are more confident and good with written english than spoken english
    Bertram Jacobus: but one can learn ... and may be we all will ... cuase english will become more and more the world's language ...
    Mickorod Renard: I am english but still have a problem with people understanding me
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Shyama Sheryffe: i think ur english is quite good mick..lol
    Bertram Jacobus: hey fefonz ... :-)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Fef :)
    Qt Core: yes, but for going back to my japanese meeting... we wrote each other a lot, while we had big problem comunicating in rl
    Wol Euler: don't hide inthe bushes, fef :)
    Mickorod Renard: you havn't heard me on voice yet Shy
    Shyama Sheryffe: hello fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hello all :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fef
    Qt Core: hi fefonz
    Wol Euler: I supose you could have texted, qt?
    Bertram Jacobus: hi fefonz ... :-)
    Qt Core: i even toke with me some paper and pencil in case of absolute lack of communication by voice ;-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I find just a phone number or room number works QT
    Mickorod Renard: no need for words
    Wol Euler: oh you wish.
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. and to meet a person in rl is always very different to the net meetings
    Wol Euler laughs


    Mickorod Renard: hey Fef,,did you see any eclipses?
    Fefonz Quan: only when i closed my eyes :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Bertram Jacobus: i saw it in the tv ...
    Mickorod Renard: we had a good one in the uk 10 years ago,,or thereabouts
    Bertram Jacobus: and, some years ago, also here in germany ...
    Mickorod Renard: wierd how all the birds go quiet
    Bertram Jacobus: lol - that was the same i guess :o)
    Qt Core: the '99 one maybe
    Mickorod Renard: that sounds about right
    Wol Euler: it rained in stuttgart that day, bertram, but the sky got very dark very quickly
    Wol Euler: I was still impressed
    Qt Core: i was handwashing dishes during that one
    Mickorod Renard: I had forgotten about it,,I just thought I was loosing my vision
    Wol Euler: wow
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. and how dark it's get. easy to imagine how people from ancient times got frightened or whatever - believing strange things for example ? ...
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Qt Core: even knowing what is happening it is terryfying
    Wol Euler: yes
    Mickorod Renard: for me it wasnt so much the darkness,,but the lack of clarity if u know what i mean
    Bertram Jacobus: i don'´t feel terrified - more impressed ...


    Mickorod Renard: I never noticed the dark,,just thought,,starange,,I cant see anything
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Fael Illyar: heh :)
    Qt Core: if you want to check for past, present and future eclipses:

    Wol Euler: O.O
    Mickorod Renard: it often gets dark here when clouds cover the sky,,but there is still clarity in vision
    Qt Core: next year easter island!
    Wol Euler: oh wow.
    Mickorod Renard: yeaaaaa
    Qt Core: (but it is rainy at 90% probability
    Wol Euler: meh
    Shyama Sheryffe: no, its shining..lol
    Mickorod Renard: wouldnt it be nice if a wealthy billionair paid for us all here to go to easter island to see it
    Shyama Sheryffe: i sthere any hre now ?
    Wol Euler pats down her pockets. Nope.
    Mickorod Renard: not me
    Qt Core: some of the people that were with me in japan have already planned a trip there... 4500 euro with a tour of chile too
    Mickorod Renard: mmmm nice
    Mickorod Renard: if I had a choice..I would do chili instead of the eclipse
    Mickorod Renard: chile
    Shyama Sheryffe: and i would go to macchu picchu
    Qt Core: they do the eclipse in the first couple day then 10 days in chile
    Fael Illyar: would be nice to find a wealthy billionaire willing to take people from SL on trips like that :)
    Qt Core: will go visiting a desert (good night sky) and a asteroid crater, if i got it right
    Mickorod Renard: wow,,there are so many cool things to see in south america
    Qt Core: they are a little mad rich people ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: (beaches in rio)
    Wol Euler smiles.There are cool things to see in the next street over.
    Wol Euler points to the word "appreciation" and smiles
    Mickorod Renard: lol,,you havnt got your telescope out again have you Wol?
    Wol Euler: alas no, htey moved away :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: lol


    Mickorod Renard: I keep thinking that we could do a session on ,,forgivness,,or jelousy sometime..what do you think?
    Wol Euler: good idea.
    Bertram Jacobus: sure
    Mickorod Renard: I know I struggle with forgivness
    Shyama Sheryffe: nods
    Wol Euler: we started on jealousy once, I think, was that with you Mick?
    Fael Illyar: either sounds nice :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes?,,i am not too bad with jelousy
    Fael Illyar: it's easy too. Just start speaking of the topic you want :)
    Mickorod Renard: forgivness is interesting cos everyone has a diferent take on it
    Bertram Jacobus: strange : first thought for me in relation to forgivingness is : not even a topic in my life (!) - but can't be ... hm
    Mickorod Renard: not sure i understand that Bertram
    Fefonz Quan: why does everyone have a different take on it Mick (forgive my asking :))
    Bertram Jacobus: i always have to think about that people can't do better as they do ... otherwise they would ...
    Fefonz Quan nods to Bert
    Shyama Sheryffe: nods to Bert
    Fael Illyar: yes.
    Mickorod Renard: well,,its a point,,but some do wrong on perpose,,and then how would you tackle forgivness?
    Bertram Jacobus: therefore i can't be seriously or for a long time angry with people may be mickorod ...
    Mickorod Renard: purpose
    Mickorod Renard: I see what you mean Bertram,,but I was like that once
    Fefonz Quan: good for you Bert, not many practice that
    Shyama Sheryffe: u should forgive them as ist their problem actually
    Mickorod Renard: then maybe something arrives that is an obstacle


    Fefonz Quan: for me acceptance should preceed forgivveness
    Fael Illyar: people doing wrong on purpose do so because they do not see an alternative.
    Fael Illyar: not a real one, anyway.
    Mickorod Renard: I would like to believe that Fael,,but I dont grin
    Fefonz Quan: or because their map of right and wrong got upside down
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,some are tempted,,and i am not innocent of temptation either
    Qt Core: or for them is just not wrong
    Shyama Sheryffe: yes ,but not to forgive is to judge pple as bad
    Bertram Jacobus: thats only a superficial thing , to be purposely wrong i guess because i also think often about "all beings want to be happy" - and i repeat : if they knew how to do that, they never would be "purposely wron" (!) ...
    Fefonz Quan: that's what i meant Qt
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,would you forgive sufficiently to trust them again?
    Wol Euler: it depends.
    Fefonz Quan: not always mick, i am not sure trust adnd forgiveness are the same
    Mickorod Renard: then this questions what is forgivness?
    Wol Euler: I'd give almost anybody a second chance, but seldom a third one.
    Fael Illyar: trust and forgiveness are quite separate, yes.
    Mickorod Renard: then we do have issues then
    Fefonz Quan: you can forgive and not be angry with them, that doesn't say doing business with them again
    Qt Core: orr at least having a plan B
    Mickorod Renard: surely forgive means absolute
    Wol Euler: I thought we agreed that there were no absolutes in real life? :)
    Qt Core: how do you say in english, do forgive but don't forget
    Fael Illyar: forgiving does not mean believing they won't do it again.
    Wol Euler: exactly, qt
    Fefonz Quan: absolutely Wol :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: forgivness means someone admits doing wrong, then u cna forgive
    Mickorod Renard: mmmmmmmmm..I think there are loose ends in this
    Fefonz Quan: win some, loose some
    Fael Illyar: no need for admitting to forgive. That's en extra rule that's not necessary.
    Fael Illyar: except for forgiving yourself.
    Mickorod Renard: what we need are some examples
    Bertram Jacobus: can you give one mickorod ?
    Qt Core: foirgiving witrhout the wrongdoers admission is more "virtuous"
    Mickorod Renard: just thinking
    Qt Core: virtuos
    Shyama Sheryffe: why should i forgive if the other doesnt even notice he is doing wrong
    Qt Core: sleepy spelling, sorry
    Shyama Sheryffe: its accepting
    Fael Illyar: why would you keep condemning?
    Shyama Sheryffe: not forgiving
    Wol Euler: wouldn't that be easier to forgive than someone who deliberately hurt you?
    Fael Illyar: you don't have to agree that what they did was right to forgive.
    Mickorod Renard: maybe to do ourselves the right thing we should forgive regardless of what the circumstances are
    Fael Illyar: yes, I've noticed that unless I forgive, what happened keeps bringing me more pain
    Shyama Sheryffe: hm..perhaps we should define forgiveness
    Mickorod Renard: i am thinking of worst case scenarios here,,what if someone killed your parents say
    Mickorod Renard: that would be easy to say i have forgiven them,,as maybe hey are locked up for life
    Fael Illyar: even in that case, not forgiving means more pain for you.
    Fefonz Quan: I prefer start with small examples, the big ones tend to not get you too far
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Bertram Jacobus: this may be a nice example . may be some of you know it : when tibetan nuns were asked, what the wort thing was, what happend o them, some said : the worst was, that we nearly had lost our passion for our totures ...
    Mickorod Renard: in law,,there is forgivness if there is repenting by the offeder
    Mickorod Renard: offender
    Qt Core: have to go, bye all
    Bertram Jacobus: cu qt
    Fefonz Quan: bye Qt
    Mickorod Renard: bye qt
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats nice Bertrum
    Wol Euler: bye qt, take care
    Shyama Sheryffe: i must go too, goodnight everyone
    Fael Illyar: Yes, for society it makes sense to only lock up people likely to commit crimes again.
    Mickorod Renard: bye Shy
    Fefonz Quan: nite Shyama
    Fael Illyar: bye Shy :)
    Bertram Jacobus: good night shyama
    Wol Euler: bye shyama, sleep well
    Mickorod Renard: sleep well shy
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i think 'social' forgiveness and personal are very different, and with different goals
    Fael Illyar: yes, different animal
    Fefonz Quan: somehow the personal level seems more relevant to me
    Mickorod Renard: its just that when forgivness is touched upon,,there are many ways people seem to dress it up as
    Fefonz Quan: like what Mick?
    Fael Illyar: the social one ... or lack of social forgiveness is more of a scarecrow.
    Fefonz Quan: (what ways)
    Fael Illyar: to keep people in line.
    Fefonz Quan: scarecrowd?
    Fael Illyar: scarecrow, as in something with the purpose of scaring so something doesn't happen
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,perhaps a person will give their aspect in relation to how they have forgiven in the past..but that may not be relevant to every case
    Fefonz Quan: yep
    Fefonz Quan: do you think there are several 'kinds' of forgiveness?
    Fefonz Quan: (except for teh true one and false one ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: faked*
    Mickorod Renard: well,,the point is,,even in the worst case scenario..not forgiving leaves you bitter
    Fael Illyar: not forgiving, put another way is not accepting reality.


    Mickorod Renard: but how some can cope with being able to forgive poses a hurdle to many
    Bertram Jacobus: i think about the point, that forgiveness always another aspect must antedate ... may be it would be interesting, to look for that ? ...
    Fefonz Quan points to the acceptance issue again
    Fefonz Quan: (antedate?)
    Bertram Jacobus: something which comes before forgvingness
    Mickorod Renard: I think when we gaet to cover this again,,we should look at adultery..that is interesting
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
    Mickorod Renard: some liberal people would dismiss it completely,,in muslim states stoning is the answer
    Bertram Jacobus: interesting example ! ...
    Mickorod Renard: and then there are all them inbetween
    Fael Illyar: yes, a truly divisive subject.
    Fefonz Quan: very few, liberal or not people, will dismiss it competely on a personal level
    Mickorod Renard: adultery is a fine example of diferent ethical outlooks
    Bertram Jacobus: my association to that is, that when there are problems in that direction, it's not love but desire what is the motivation ... sry - is this to straight ?
    Mickorod Renard: and how would people from diferent cultures manage to 'forgive' in the same way?
    Bertram Jacobus: too
    Mickorod Renard: desire..temptation,,isnt it the same?
    Fefonz Quan: what do you mean too straight Bert? (:-:/)
    Mickorod Renard: could be same sex adultery?
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Bertram Jacobus: not only the same i guess, becuase relative things always seem to have common aspects as well as dividing ones
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes direct words can hurt fefonz. that is what i fear often. sometimes to keep silent is more compassionate. i'm not good in this discipline for sake
    Fefonz Quan: Mick, i think that different cultures will change quantitavely regarding the seriousness of adultery, but that is indepentdant of the forgiveness issue
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure there are ranges of guilt even in adultery,,but its interesting
    Fefonz Quan: Bert, didnt think you say anything hurtful :)
    Fael Illyar: yet, sometimes direct words are needed, even if they do hurt.
    Fefonz Quan: i agree Mick. i start to loose your ont though, sorry
    Fefonz Quan: point*
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,mustnt loose the thread on forgivness
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,was tryin to steer back
    Bertram Jacobus: what do you think ? why do you struggle with this point mickorod ? may i ask ?
    Mickorod Renard: the point is,,forgivness is a jolly thing to give,,for both parties,,in an ideal world
    Mickorod Renard: but forgivness is something that most struggle with,,for eg we discuss past issues of bullying here often
    Fael Illyar: the crucial question would be 'why not? what would you lose by forgiving?'
    Mickorod Renard: thats a good point Fael
    Mickorod Renard: but that also must be the issue,,why do some folk on certain issues,,find it hard to forgive
    Fael Illyar: but only works when you have an actual something in your mind that you're having problems forgiving.
    Mickorod Renard: I have seen it dy in day out,,for eg,,2 kids fighting,,u grab them and make them forgive each other
    Mickorod Renard: but that just words
    Fefonz Quan: non-forgiving is another ego-defecding mechanism
    Fefonz Quan: defending*
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Mickorod Renard: thats good fef
    Fael Illyar: yes, forcing forgiveness often produces just lies.
    Fefonz Quan: and it is also comfortable, since it leaves teh resposibility on the other side
    Mickorod Renard: but to forgive,,for many,,is being submissive
    Fael Illyar: forgiving does not mean submitting...
    Fefonz Quan: yes Mick, it also give you points in teh 'control' fight
    Wol Euler nods


    Fefonz Quan: gives*
    Bertram Jacobus: but sometimes it can even help when combattants don´t feel the forgiving but say it each other nevertheless - as an impulse towards the right direction
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,that is true in war issues
    Bertram Jacobus: when not more is possible at the moment
    Fefonz Quan: yes, but that might also lead to repression (if this is the right word)
    Fael Illyar: you mean false forgiveness?
    Mickorod Renard: that is the other siide of my interest Fael,,false forgivness
    Bertram Jacobus: the motivation may be the right instrument for measuring. if the mediator or whoever is honest, that should be okay i tend to think (?)
    Fefonz Quan: yes. you say you have forgivess, but under your mustache you grunt and gramp and mumur nasty things
    Mickorod Renard: to know what false forgivness is one needs to accertain parameters
    Fael Illyar: false forgiveness is born if you punish yourself for not forgiving for long enough.
    Fefonz Quan: and poison yourself ongoingly
    Fefonz Quan: ongoingly
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: i think about the method here, where people laugh and smile at theirselfes in a mirror or so even if they are sad. in the beginning really strange, but slowly that shall be helpful (?) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and should help to make your feeling really better
    Bertram Jacobus: but this is not simple !
    Fefonz Quan: just where is that method practices Bert?
    Fefonz Quan: (not that i say it doesn't work)
    Mickorod Renard: do you think that to forgive someone is true forgivness if you dont trust them anymore?
    Fefonz Quan: yes Mick
    Bertram Jacobus: there are "luagh schools" in asia and europe. should to be found on google ...
    Bertram Jacobus: laugh
    Mickorod Renard: thats a strange thought
    Fefonz Quan: but again it depends on teh case.
    Bertram Jacobus: it was already said mickorod - do you see it different ? : trust and forgiveness are different
    Fefonz Quan: if the issue that was violated was trust to begin with, there can be some codependency
    Fael Illyar: trust is no absolute. I can trust someone with my money but not laptop or the other way around.
    Wol Euler: yes, that#s true
    Bertram Jacobus: that i can forgive for example doesn´t mean that i'm blind (!)
    Fael Illyar: when you forgive, it doesn't mean you'll trust them not to do the same thing again.
    Mickorod Renard: I have had discussions with other folk about this and they disagree,,they say forgive means total forgive,,and forget
    Fefonz Quan: some people just have slippy hand and they don't hold well to things
    Fael Illyar: but it does mean you can trust them with other things.
    Bertram Jacobus: no fael. that's different to me : i can forgive and know it will happen again
    Fefonz Quan: so i won't give them my 7th century chinese vase, even though i have forigeved them for braking the vase my mother gave me
    Mickorod Renard: I like that Bertram
    Wol Euler: yes, agreed, forgiveness does not require you to forget
    Fael Illyar: bert, sorry? that sounds like what I was saying, pretty much.
    Mickorod Renard: forgive and let it be water on a ducks back
    Fefonz Quan: in a way, if you could TOTALLY forget, forgiveness would have no meaning
    Bertram Jacobus: uh. then i misunderstood fael - sorry please -
    Fefonz Quan: (eternal sunshine etc....)
    Fael Illyar: That's ok :)
    Fael Illyar: just confusing
    Mickorod Renard: I find it so confussing,,I settle for punishment,,its easier
    Fefonz Quan: and after teh punishment do you forgive?
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Fefonz Quan: strangely it is not so simple
    Mickorod Renard: no,,honestly,,I do have issues tormenting me,,and I would like to know the mystery behind forgivness
    Bertram Jacobus: i myself already found punishment helpful too to learn something. it depends
    Mickorod Renard: and yes Fef,,as you know well,,I am a control freak
    Fael Illyar: punishment is a two edged sword
    Bertram Jacobus: the mystery may be love and understanding ...
    Fefonz Quan: then we should talk acceptance and letting go mick
    Fael Illyar: it does teach you to avoid doing the bad deed, but the larger the punishment is, the more it also teaches you to not get caught.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes fefonz
    Wol Euler: yes, I agree with fef
    Fefonz Quan: and from there, 90% of the work has already been done
    Mickorod Renard: well,,thats the funny thing,,i can forgive,,so far almost as well as anyone..but some things still bug me enough that I cant in some cases
    Wol Euler: can you see what those cases hve in common?
    Bertram Jacobus: may be simply a matter of time ...
    Wol Euler: hello ari!
    Wol Euler pats the cushion next to herself
    Bertram Jacobus: hello ariasia ... :-)
    Arisia Vita: Hi all...
    Mickorod Renard: I think it is to do with loosing self esteme
    Mickorod Renard: hiya arisa
    Fefonz Quan: hi Ari
    Fael Illyar: loosing self esteem is always your own choice.


    Fael Illyar: it's one method of punishing
    Mickorod Renard: maybe that was wrong words,,I will try and think of another
    Fefonz Quan: funny method, where the punishment is put on other than the criminal :)
    Fefonz Quan: (not to say teh victim)
    Mickorod Renard: maybe if the person asked my forgivness,,i would give it out of kindness,,,but that they show no remorse make me want to not forgive
    Bertram Jacobus: i was punished very few times from my father and i always say that was not contraproductive ... ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: as it looks like I am being weak
    Fefonz Quan: btw, Mick, Jewish have a special day only for forgiveness - and this is the holieest day of the year
    Mickorod Renard: I can believe that,,some issues need alot to forgive
    Fefonz Quan: (infact it focuses on remorse/regret, than comes the forgiveness, hoefully by God himself afterwards)ness
    Bertram Jacobus: what you describe there mickorod sounds like really wrong kind of forgiveness. when people ask it in such a way ...
    Fael Illyar: in my view, not forgiving is the weak choice...
    Fefonz Quan nods to fael.
    Mickorod Renard: well..I am sure I have given forgivness,,but in my heart I dont feel clean of it
    Bertram Jacobus: important to devide the right from the wrong forgiveness too i think
    Fefonz Quan: there is one interesting buddhist meditatin i foudn helpful
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Fefonz Quan: where you remind yourself continuesly that the people that made you angry/upset also want to be happy and not to suffer, and you wish that for them
    Bertram Jacobus: i'm very tired . i'll leave . ty vm for this talk ...
    Wol Euler: that sounds like hard work, to be honest.
    Fael Illyar: I'll be leaving too. see you later everyone :)
    Wol Euler: I must be off sooon too, it's nearly midnight.
    Bertram Jacobus: ty again :-)
    Fefonz Quan: It is Wol, in fact this is the four stage of that meditation (called Meta)
    Mickorod Renard: its funny,,i convince myself of similar things from time to time..but yet it still comes back and haunts me
    Fefonz Quan: you start with yourself, then beloved ones, then stranger, and finally enemies

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