The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

"Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Lewis Carroll

WESTER LOOSES A SCREW

Bertram Jacobus: strange : the bell rang, but there was no text with it ... (?)
Hana Furlough: strange... i wonder what that means
Bertram Jacobus: twinkles ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: and has no idea about it :-)
Hana Furlough: how are you today?
Bertram Jacobus: ty fine. and you ?
Hana Furlough: pretty swell
Bertram Jacobus: i have a lot to work at the moment so i'm often a bit exhausted, but not too bad
Bertram Jacobus: were you already here at this place qt (i'm quite new here) ... :-)
Qt Core: yes, i've been there many times
Bertram Jacobus: oh i see - sry please then for my silly question qt ...
Qt Core: np, bert, you can't know the answers before making questions ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: lol no . okay . ty qt for your friendly reaction :-)
Wester Kiranov: there are worse things than the bottom of your screen - I just lost a tiny screw of my glasses. going to look now
Mickorod Renard: lol..at school all the kids come to me when they do that
Mickorod Renard: I seem to be mr fix it
Bertram Jacobus: iihh - i know that with these screws wes - had lost the one or other also already once ...
Wester Kiranov: well - if you could help me find mine ... ;)
Hana Furlough: i'll look around for you wester
Mickorod Renard: maybe u will have to use a bit of wire
Mickorod Renard: or a paper clip
Bertram Jacobus: wire is a very useful thing ! ... *grin*
Mickorod Renard: well,,this is busier than last week
Wester Kiranov: (still looking)

QT'S TRIP TO SEE THE ECLIPSE

Mickorod Renard: hey qt..did u see the eclipse
Bertram Jacobus: otherwise an optician will help you wester (?) ...
Qt Core: no, only clouds and rain :-(
Mickorod Renard: ohh nooooo
Mickorod Renard: what a downer
Qt Core: but loved the wholetrip nonetheless
Mickorod Renard: fantastic
Bertram Jacobus: where were that qt ? in japan ?
Qt Core: yes, bert, south (but not enough south) of japan on a cruise
Bertram Jacobus: not enough in relation to what please qt ?
--BELL--
Qt Core: another cruise (same cruse company too) 1500 km south of us got to see it, not everything but at least the totality
Mickorod Renard: did it go very dark though , QT?
Bertram Jacobus: hello wol ... :-)
Wester Kiranov: (I'll see you all some time whenI can actually see you)
Wester Kiranov: bye
Qt Core: yes, almost night dark with some light on the horizont

WOL TELLS ABOUT RL/SL WEDDING

Mickorod Renard: So how was whatever you been up to lately Wol?
Wol Euler: I was at a RL weddng of SL folk, it was quite wonderful
Mickorod Renard: great
Mickorod Renard: was it like you imagined?
Wol Euler: different in many ways
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Wol Euler: the people were even more wonderful in RL than I knew them to be here.
Mickorod Renard: thats so nice Wol
Shyama Sheryffe: did they meet in sl ?
Wol Euler: yes, indeed thtey did :)
Mickorod Renard: dangerous place SL..grin
Wol Euler: made thje jump to RL about a year ago, moved in together six months back
Wol Euler: quite a wonderful story. They are just absurdly happy
Bertram Jacobus: lol absurdly happy sounds very funny :-)
Wol Euler: the wedding was held in their back garden. Afte the vows, we had margaritas, fireworks and waterpistol fights
Mickorod Renard: he he he ,,incredible
Shyama Sheryffe: sounds wonderful :)
Wol Euler: I'm still floating on the happiness of it, nearly two weeks later
Qt Core: do that here in italy and you get disowned... by both families ;-)
Hana Furlough: wow that's so nice!
Mickorod Renard: but it goes to show that having a good interpersonal dialog between two people is maybe more important than just visual attraction
Wol Euler: oh yes, and the meeting (we called it a "conference" :) proved that too.
Shyama Sheryffe: how ?
Wol Euler: there was a moment of oddness, seeing these unknown and unexpected RL meaty avs
Wol Euler: but that lasted at most a half hour.
Bertram Jacobus: i made a similar experience : lived together with a "sl girl" in rl too, for about two years
Mickorod Renard: wow,,bertram
Hana Furlough: that's great!
Shyama Sheryffe: smiles amazed
Qt Core: hi Fael
Mickorod Renard: hi fael
Hana Furlough: hi fael
Bertram Jacobus: hi fael ... :-)
Shyama Sheryffe: hi fael
Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Hana, Mick, Shyama, Bert,Qt :)
Wol Euler smiles. Nice one, Bertram
Wol Euler: hello fael
Wol Euler: just as it makes no difference whether Ade presents as a lion or a bird or a woman, I found that the meat av was just anohter appearance of the personality that I knew quite well.
Bertram Jacobus: and it was similar too - as you said absurdly happy - very similar ... a bit ... like irreal
Shyama Sheryffe: so its kind of meeting on soul level ?
Shyama Sheryffe: in sl
Qt Core: it is just more hires drawn with better 3d look and feel ;-)
Wol Euler: very much so, Shyama. You meet souls here in SL, unencumbered by bodies
Bertram Jacobus: for me it's more mind level
Wol Euler: yes, the look and feel of RL is still higher-rez :)
Hana Furlough: wow that's such a nice comment
Wol Euler: especially the feel.
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i have spent time with an sl avi in Rl
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: That sounds like my experience too.
Mickorod Renard: took me about 10 mins to get used to their look
Fael Illyar: SL avi in RL? how?
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: I mean meet the real person behind the sl avi
Fael Illyar: ah
Qt Core: i haven't met yet some sl people in meatspace, but many from other online chats and such and after you recognize the same mind you know there are no more problem
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Shyama Sheryffe: so after 10 min they were like old friends, mick ?
Mickorod Renard: I guess it works well if you have been honest about your rl age and certain other aspects
Wol Euler: they ARE old friends, Shyama :) that's the odd and lovely thing.
Mickorod Renard: yes Shy,,cos the real person shines through image
Wol Euler: meeting an old friend for the first time
Fael Illyar smiles.
Mickorod Renard: he he he

--BELL--

Wol Euler: there was so much hugging going on at hte wedding, it was quite amazing.
Qt Core: obviously mick, i just met in japan a guy from another online place... i told him he could recognize me as the fattiest in the italian group... he got me immediatly
Mickorod Renard: ;-
Mickorod Renard: )
Fael Illyar smiles.
Bertram Jacobus: lol qt - self irony is so nice ! ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: when one can laugh about himself ...
Hana Furlough: so wol did you like meeting people in rl or sl better?
Fael Illyar: only natural to use the best way to identify available :)
Qt Core: ;-)
Wol Euler: huh. Strange question.
Shyama Sheryffe: u seem to be quite slim to me qt ..lol
Wol Euler: both are good, differently good.
Bertram Jacobus: giggles ... ;-)
Hana Furlough: haha nice answer!
Qt Core: i prefer online ways, you can get past some things that may make you choose to not try to "meet" someone
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I can be judgemental on someones image in RL
Fael Illyar smiles.
Qt Core: like i don't know, i think i will hardly start a conversation with a deep gothic/hevy metal kind of guy in rl
Mickorod Renard: wrongly too,,but its just my nature
Fael Illyar: yep, I'd say the same. Both are god, in different ways
Fael Illyar: Qt would you in S?
Fael Illyar: SL
Wol Euler: mmhmm, the happy couple would never have met in RL. Even had thtey sat beside each other for 13 hours in an airplane, they would not have spoken because they seem to belong to entirely different tribes
Qt Core: on the other way i may feel shy to approach a supermodel kind of girl in rl ;-)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats true of me too
Mickorod Renard: would still do it ,,but would be shy
Mickorod Renard: he he
Hana Furlough: out of batteries in RL
Mickorod Renard: lol
Wol Euler: that is good Mick :) women like to see a man taking a risk.
Mickorod Renard: I only take bad risks
Wol Euler: ah.
Shyama Sheryffe: lol
Qt Core: than there is the language problem, many non native english speaker are more confident and good with written english than spoken english
Bertram Jacobus: but one can learn ... and may be we all will ... cuase english will become more and more the world's language ...
Mickorod Renard: I am english but still have a problem with people understanding me
Wol Euler: heheh
Shyama Sheryffe: i think ur english is quite good mick..lol
Bertram Jacobus: hey fefonz ... :-)
Fael Illyar: Hi Fef :)
Qt Core: yes, but for going back to my japanese meeting... we wrote each other a lot, while we had big problem comunicating in rl
Wol Euler: don't hide inthe bushes, fef :)
Mickorod Renard: you havn't heard me on voice yet Shy
Shyama Sheryffe: hello fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hello all :)
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fef
Qt Core: hi fefonz
Wol Euler: I supose you could have texted, qt?
Bertram Jacobus: hi fefonz ... :-)
Qt Core: i even toke with me some paper and pencil in case of absolute lack of communication by voice ;-)
Wol Euler: :)
Mickorod Renard: I find just a phone number or room number works QT
Mickorod Renard: no need for words
Wol Euler: oh you wish.
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bertram Jacobus: yes. and to meet a person in rl is always very different to the net meetings
Wol Euler laughs

MORE ECLIPSES

Mickorod Renard: hey Fef,,did you see any eclipses?
Fefonz Quan: only when i closed my eyes :)
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Bertram Jacobus: i saw it in the tv ...
Mickorod Renard: we had a good one in the uk 10 years ago,,or thereabouts
Bertram Jacobus: and, some years ago, also here in germany ...
Mickorod Renard: wierd how all the birds go quiet
Bertram Jacobus: lol - that was the same i guess :o)
Qt Core: the '99 one maybe
Mickorod Renard: that sounds about right
Wol Euler: it rained in stuttgart that day, bertram, but the sky got very dark very quickly
Wol Euler: I was still impressed
Qt Core: i was handwashing dishes during that one
Mickorod Renard: I had forgotten about it,,I just thought I was loosing my vision
Wol Euler: wow
Bertram Jacobus: yes. and how dark it's get. easy to imagine how people from ancient times got frightened or whatever - believing strange things for example ? ...
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: yes
Qt Core: even knowing what is happening it is terryfying
Wol Euler: yes
Mickorod Renard: for me it wasnt so much the darkness,,but the lack of clarity if u know what i mean
Bertram Jacobus: i don'´t feel terrified - more impressed ...

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: I never noticed the dark,,just thought,,starange,,I cant see anything
Mickorod Renard: oops
Fael Illyar: heh :)
Qt Core: if you want to check for past, present and future eclipses:

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse.html
Wol Euler: O.O
Mickorod Renard: it often gets dark here when clouds cover the sky,,but there is still clarity in vision
Qt Core: next year easter island!
Wol Euler: oh wow.
Mickorod Renard: yeaaaaa
Qt Core: (but it is rainy at 90% probability
Wol Euler: meh
Shyama Sheryffe: no, its shining..lol
Mickorod Renard: wouldnt it be nice if a wealthy billionair paid for us all here to go to easter island to see it
Shyama Sheryffe: i sthere any hre now ?
Wol Euler pats down her pockets. Nope.
Mickorod Renard: not me
Qt Core: some of the people that were with me in japan have already planned a trip there... 4500 euro with a tour of chile too
Mickorod Renard: mmmm nice
Mickorod Renard: if I had a choice..I would do chili instead of the eclipse
Mickorod Renard: chile
Shyama Sheryffe: and i would go to macchu picchu
Qt Core: they do the eclipse in the first couple day then 10 days in chile
Fael Illyar: would be nice to find a wealthy billionaire willing to take people from SL on trips like that :)
Qt Core: will go visiting a desert (good night sky) and a asteroid crater, if i got it right
Mickorod Renard: wow,,there are so many cool things to see in south america
Qt Core: they are a little mad rich people ;-)
Mickorod Renard: (beaches in rio)
Wol Euler smiles.There are cool things to see in the next street over.
Wol Euler points to the word "appreciation" and smiles
Mickorod Renard: lol,,you havnt got your telescope out again have you Wol?
Wol Euler: alas no, htey moved away :)
Shyama Sheryffe: lol

FORGIVNESS.WHAT IS IT?

Mickorod Renard: I keep thinking that we could do a session on ,,forgivness,,or jelousy sometime..what do you think?
Wol Euler: good idea.
Bertram Jacobus: sure
Mickorod Renard: I know I struggle with forgivness
Shyama Sheryffe: nods
Wol Euler: we started on jealousy once, I think, was that with you Mick?
Fael Illyar: either sounds nice :)
Mickorod Renard: yes?,,i am not too bad with jelousy
Fael Illyar: it's easy too. Just start speaking of the topic you want :)
Mickorod Renard: forgivness is interesting cos everyone has a diferent take on it
Bertram Jacobus: strange : first thought for me in relation to forgivingness is : not even a topic in my life (!) - but can't be ... hm
Mickorod Renard: not sure i understand that Bertram
Fefonz Quan: why does everyone have a different take on it Mick (forgive my asking :))
Bertram Jacobus: i always have to think about that people can't do better as they do ... otherwise they would ...
Fefonz Quan nods to Bert
Shyama Sheryffe: nods to Bert
Fael Illyar: yes.
Mickorod Renard: well,,its a point,,but some do wrong on perpose,,and then how would you tackle forgivness?
Bertram Jacobus: therefore i can't be seriously or for a long time angry with people may be mickorod ...
Mickorod Renard: purpose
Mickorod Renard: I see what you mean Bertram,,but I was like that once
Fefonz Quan: good for you Bert, not many practice that
Shyama Sheryffe: u should forgive them as ist their problem actually
Mickorod Renard: then maybe something arrives that is an obstacle

--BELL--

Fefonz Quan: for me acceptance should preceed forgivveness
Fael Illyar: people doing wrong on purpose do so because they do not see an alternative.
Fael Illyar: not a real one, anyway.
Mickorod Renard: I would like to believe that Fael,,but I dont grin
Fefonz Quan: or because their map of right and wrong got upside down
Mickorod Renard: yes,,some are tempted,,and i am not innocent of temptation either
Qt Core: or for them is just not wrong
Shyama Sheryffe: yes ,but not to forgive is to judge pple as bad
Bertram Jacobus: thats only a superficial thing , to be purposely wrong i guess because i also think often about "all beings want to be happy" - and i repeat : if they knew how to do that, they never would be "purposely wron" (!) ...
Fefonz Quan: that's what i meant Qt
Mickorod Renard: ok,,would you forgive sufficiently to trust them again?
Wol Euler: it depends.
Fefonz Quan: not always mick, i am not sure trust adnd forgiveness are the same
Mickorod Renard: then this questions what is forgivness?
Wol Euler: I'd give almost anybody a second chance, but seldom a third one.
Fael Illyar: trust and forgiveness are quite separate, yes.
Mickorod Renard: then we do have issues then
Fefonz Quan: you can forgive and not be angry with them, that doesn't say doing business with them again
Qt Core: orr at least having a plan B
Mickorod Renard: surely forgive means absolute
Wol Euler: I thought we agreed that there were no absolutes in real life? :)
Qt Core: how do you say in english, do forgive but don't forget
Fael Illyar: forgiving does not mean believing they won't do it again.
Wol Euler: exactly, qt
Fefonz Quan: absolutely Wol :)
Wol Euler: :)
Shyama Sheryffe: forgivness means someone admits doing wrong, then u cna forgive
Mickorod Renard: mmmmmmmmm..I think there are loose ends in this
Fefonz Quan: win some, loose some
Fael Illyar: no need for admitting to forgive. That's en extra rule that's not necessary.
Fael Illyar: except for forgiving yourself.
Mickorod Renard: what we need are some examples
Bertram Jacobus: can you give one mickorod ?
Qt Core: foirgiving witrhout the wrongdoers admission is more "virtuous"
Mickorod Renard: just thinking
Qt Core: virtuos
Shyama Sheryffe: why should i forgive if the other doesnt even notice he is doing wrong
Qt Core: sleepy spelling, sorry
Shyama Sheryffe: its accepting
Fael Illyar: why would you keep condemning?
Shyama Sheryffe: not forgiving
Wol Euler: wouldn't that be easier to forgive than someone who deliberately hurt you?
Fael Illyar: you don't have to agree that what they did was right to forgive.
Mickorod Renard: maybe to do ourselves the right thing we should forgive regardless of what the circumstances are
Fael Illyar: yes, I've noticed that unless I forgive, what happened keeps bringing me more pain
Shyama Sheryffe: hm..perhaps we should define forgiveness
Mickorod Renard: i am thinking of worst case scenarios here,,what if someone killed your parents say
Mickorod Renard: that would be easy to say i have forgiven them,,as maybe hey are locked up for life
Fael Illyar: even in that case, not forgiving means more pain for you.
Fefonz Quan: I prefer start with small examples, the big ones tend to not get you too far
Mickorod Renard: ok
Bertram Jacobus: this may be a nice example . may be some of you know it : when tibetan nuns were asked, what the wort thing was, what happend o them, some said : the worst was, that we nearly had lost our passion for our totures ...
Mickorod Renard: in law,,there is forgivness if there is repenting by the offeder
Mickorod Renard: offender
Qt Core: have to go, bye all
Bertram Jacobus: cu qt
Fefonz Quan: bye Qt
Mickorod Renard: bye qt
Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats nice Bertrum
Wol Euler: bye qt, take care
Shyama Sheryffe: i must go too, goodnight everyone
Fael Illyar: Yes, for society it makes sense to only lock up people likely to commit crimes again.
Mickorod Renard: bye Shy
Fefonz Quan: nite Shyama
Fael Illyar: bye Shy :)
Bertram Jacobus: good night shyama
Wol Euler: bye shyama, sleep well
Mickorod Renard: sleep well shy
Fefonz Quan: yes, i think 'social' forgiveness and personal are very different, and with different goals
Fael Illyar: yes, different animal
Fefonz Quan: somehow the personal level seems more relevant to me
Mickorod Renard: its just that when forgivness is touched upon,,there are many ways people seem to dress it up as
Fefonz Quan: like what Mick?
Fael Illyar: the social one ... or lack of social forgiveness is more of a scarecrow.
Fefonz Quan: (what ways)
Fael Illyar: to keep people in line.
Fefonz Quan: scarecrowd?
Fael Illyar: scarecrow, as in something with the purpose of scaring so something doesn't happen
Mickorod Renard: ok,,perhaps a person will give their aspect in relation to how they have forgiven in the past..but that may not be relevant to every case
Fefonz Quan: yep
Fefonz Quan: do you think there are several 'kinds' of forgiveness?
Fefonz Quan: (except for teh true one and false one ;-)
Fefonz Quan: faked*
Mickorod Renard: well,,the point is,,even in the worst case scenario..not forgiving leaves you bitter
Fael Illyar: not forgiving, put another way is not accepting reality.

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: but how some can cope with being able to forgive poses a hurdle to many
Bertram Jacobus: i think about the point, that forgiveness always another aspect must antedate ... may be it would be interesting, to look for that ? ...
Fefonz Quan points to the acceptance issue again
Fefonz Quan: (antedate?)
Bertram Jacobus: something which comes before forgvingness
Mickorod Renard: I think when we gaet to cover this again,,we should look at adultery..that is interesting
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
Mickorod Renard: some liberal people would dismiss it completely,,in muslim states stoning is the answer
Bertram Jacobus: interesting example ! ...
Mickorod Renard: and then there are all them inbetween
Fael Illyar: yes, a truly divisive subject.
Fefonz Quan: very few, liberal or not people, will dismiss it competely on a personal level
Mickorod Renard: adultery is a fine example of diferent ethical outlooks
Bertram Jacobus: my association to that is, that when there are problems in that direction, it's not love but desire what is the motivation ... sry - is this to straight ?
Mickorod Renard: and how would people from diferent cultures manage to 'forgive' in the same way?
Bertram Jacobus: too
Mickorod Renard: desire..temptation,,isnt it the same?
Fefonz Quan: what do you mean too straight Bert? (:-:/)
Mickorod Renard: could be same sex adultery?
Mickorod Renard: grin
Bertram Jacobus: not only the same i guess, becuase relative things always seem to have common aspects as well as dividing ones
Fefonz Quan: :)
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes direct words can hurt fefonz. that is what i fear often. sometimes to keep silent is more compassionate. i'm not good in this discipline for sake
Fefonz Quan: Mick, i think that different cultures will change quantitavely regarding the seriousness of adultery, but that is indepentdant of the forgiveness issue
Mickorod Renard: I am sure there are ranges of guilt even in adultery,,but its interesting
Fefonz Quan: Bert, didnt think you say anything hurtful :)
Fael Illyar: yet, sometimes direct words are needed, even if they do hurt.
Fefonz Quan: i agree Mick. i start to loose your ont though, sorry
Fefonz Quan: point*
Mickorod Renard: yes,,mustnt loose the thread on forgivness
Mickorod Renard: yes,,was tryin to steer back
Bertram Jacobus: what do you think ? why do you struggle with this point mickorod ? may i ask ?
Mickorod Renard: the point is,,forgivness is a jolly thing to give,,for both parties,,in an ideal world
Mickorod Renard: but forgivness is something that most struggle with,,for eg we discuss past issues of bullying here often
Fael Illyar: the crucial question would be 'why not? what would you lose by forgiving?'
Mickorod Renard: thats a good point Fael
Mickorod Renard: but that also must be the issue,,why do some folk on certain issues,,find it hard to forgive
Fael Illyar: but only works when you have an actual something in your mind that you're having problems forgiving.
Mickorod Renard: I have seen it dy in day out,,for eg,,2 kids fighting,,u grab them and make them forgive each other
Mickorod Renard: but that just words
Fefonz Quan: non-forgiving is another ego-defecding mechanism
Fefonz Quan: defending*
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: thats good fef
Fael Illyar: yes, forcing forgiveness often produces just lies.
Fefonz Quan: and it is also comfortable, since it leaves teh resposibility on the other side
Mickorod Renard: but to forgive,,for many,,is being submissive
Fael Illyar: forgiving does not mean submitting...
Fefonz Quan: yes Mick, it also give you points in teh 'control' fight
Wol Euler nods

--BELL--

Fefonz Quan: gives*
Bertram Jacobus: but sometimes it can even help when combattants don´t feel the forgiving but say it each other nevertheless - as an impulse towards the right direction
Mickorod Renard: yes,,that is true in war issues
Bertram Jacobus: when not more is possible at the moment
Fefonz Quan: yes, but that might also lead to repression (if this is the right word)
Fael Illyar: you mean false forgiveness?
Mickorod Renard: that is the other siide of my interest Fael,,false forgivness
Bertram Jacobus: the motivation may be the right instrument for measuring. if the mediator or whoever is honest, that should be okay i tend to think (?)
Fefonz Quan: yes. you say you have forgivess, but under your mustache you grunt and gramp and mumur nasty things
Mickorod Renard: to know what false forgivness is one needs to accertain parameters
Fael Illyar: false forgiveness is born if you punish yourself for not forgiving for long enough.
Fefonz Quan: and poison yourself ongoingly
Fefonz Quan: ongoingly
Mickorod Renard: yes
Bertram Jacobus: i think about the method here, where people laugh and smile at theirselfes in a mirror or so even if they are sad. in the beginning really strange, but slowly that shall be helpful (?) ...
Bertram Jacobus: and should help to make your feeling really better
Bertram Jacobus: but this is not simple !
Fefonz Quan: just where is that method practices Bert?
Fefonz Quan: (not that i say it doesn't work)
Mickorod Renard: do you think that to forgive someone is true forgivness if you dont trust them anymore?
Fefonz Quan: yes Mick
Bertram Jacobus: there are "luagh schools" in asia and europe. should to be found on google ...
Bertram Jacobus: laugh
Mickorod Renard: thats a strange thought
Fefonz Quan: but again it depends on teh case.
Bertram Jacobus: it was already said mickorod - do you see it different ? : trust and forgiveness are different
Fefonz Quan: if the issue that was violated was trust to begin with, there can be some codependency
Fael Illyar: trust is no absolute. I can trust someone with my money but not laptop or the other way around.
Wol Euler: yes, that#s true
Bertram Jacobus: that i can forgive for example doesn´t mean that i'm blind (!)
Fael Illyar: when you forgive, it doesn't mean you'll trust them not to do the same thing again.
Mickorod Renard: I have had discussions with other folk about this and they disagree,,they say forgive means total forgive,,and forget
Fefonz Quan: some people just have slippy hand and they don't hold well to things
Fael Illyar: but it does mean you can trust them with other things.
Bertram Jacobus: no fael. that's different to me : i can forgive and know it will happen again
Fefonz Quan: so i won't give them my 7th century chinese vase, even though i have forigeved them for braking the vase my mother gave me
Mickorod Renard: I like that Bertram
Wol Euler: yes, agreed, forgiveness does not require you to forget
Fael Illyar: bert, sorry? that sounds like what I was saying, pretty much.
Mickorod Renard: forgive and let it be water on a ducks back
Fefonz Quan: in a way, if you could TOTALLY forget, forgiveness would have no meaning
Bertram Jacobus: uh. then i misunderstood fael - sorry please -
Fefonz Quan: (eternal sunshine etc....)
Fael Illyar: That's ok :)
Fael Illyar: just confusing
Mickorod Renard: I find it so confussing,,I settle for punishment,,its easier
Fefonz Quan: and after teh punishment do you forgive?
Mickorod Renard: he he
Fefonz Quan: strangely it is not so simple
Mickorod Renard: no,,honestly,,I do have issues tormenting me,,and I would like to know the mystery behind forgivness
Bertram Jacobus: i myself already found punishment helpful too to learn something. it depends
Mickorod Renard: and yes Fef,,as you know well,,I am a control freak
Fael Illyar: punishment is a two edged sword
Bertram Jacobus: the mystery may be love and understanding ...
Fefonz Quan: then we should talk acceptance and letting go mick
Fael Illyar: it does teach you to avoid doing the bad deed, but the larger the punishment is, the more it also teaches you to not get caught.
Bertram Jacobus: yes fefonz
Wol Euler: yes, I agree with fef
Fefonz Quan: and from there, 90% of the work has already been done
Mickorod Renard: well,,thats the funny thing,,i can forgive,,so far almost as well as anyone..but some things still bug me enough that I cant in some cases
Wol Euler: can you see what those cases hve in common?
Bertram Jacobus: may be simply a matter of time ...
Wol Euler: hello ari!
Wol Euler pats the cushion next to herself
Bertram Jacobus: hello ariasia ... :-)
Arisia Vita: Hi all...
Mickorod Renard: I think it is to do with loosing self esteme
Mickorod Renard: hiya arisa
Fefonz Quan: hi Ari
Fael Illyar: loosing self esteem is always your own choice.

--BELL--

Fael Illyar: it's one method of punishing
Mickorod Renard: maybe that was wrong words,,I will try and think of another
Fefonz Quan: funny method, where the punishment is put on other than the criminal :)
Fefonz Quan: (not to say teh victim)
Mickorod Renard: maybe if the person asked my forgivness,,i would give it out of kindness,,,but that they show no remorse make me want to not forgive
Bertram Jacobus: i was punished very few times from my father and i always say that was not contraproductive ... ;-)
Mickorod Renard: as it looks like I am being weak
Fefonz Quan: btw, Mick, Jewish have a special day only for forgiveness - and this is the holieest day of the year
Mickorod Renard: I can believe that,,some issues need alot to forgive
Fefonz Quan: (infact it focuses on remorse/regret, than comes the forgiveness, hoefully by God himself afterwards)ness
Bertram Jacobus: what you describe there mickorod sounds like really wrong kind of forgiveness. when people ask it in such a way ...
Fael Illyar: in my view, not forgiving is the weak choice...
Fefonz Quan nods to fael.
Mickorod Renard: well..I am sure I have given forgivness,,but in my heart I dont feel clean of it
Bertram Jacobus: important to devide the right from the wrong forgiveness too i think
Fefonz Quan: there is one interesting buddhist meditatin i foudn helpful
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Fefonz Quan: where you remind yourself continuesly that the people that made you angry/upset also want to be happy and not to suffer, and you wish that for them
Bertram Jacobus: i'm very tired . i'll leave . ty vm for this talk ...
Wol Euler: that sounds like hard work, to be honest.
Fael Illyar: I'll be leaving too. see you later everyone :)
Wol Euler: I must be off sooon too, it's nearly midnight.
Bertram Jacobus: ty again :-)
Fefonz Quan: It is Wol, in fact this is the four stage of that meditation (called Meta)
Mickorod Renard: its funny,,i convince myself of similar things from time to time..but yet it still comes back and haunts me
Fefonz Quan: you start with yourself, then beloved ones, then stranger, and finally enemies