2009.07.28 19:00 - Purpose

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

    Hana Furlough: hi eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Hana
    Hana Furlough: how are you this evening?
    Eos Amaterasu: Pretty good.... how are you being?
    Hana Furlough: i'm Being pretty well thanks

    Why is Being playing us?

    Hana Furlough: can i ask, why do you think being is playing us?
    Eos Amaterasu: Does play have a goal?
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Hana Furlough: haha nice
    Hana Furlough: so no purpose
    Eos Amaterasu: Here's a koanic Q&A....
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Hana and Eos!
    Hana Furlough: hi pema
    Eos Amaterasu: Q: What is the purpose of meditation?
    Eos Amaterasu: A: Meditation is dealing with purpose
    Hana Furlough: but i really feel like there is no reason for meditation
    Hana Furlough: it's just expressing things as they is (as suzuki shunryu might say)
    Eos Amaterasu: But it's a good question (Hana was asking , Hana Furlough: can i ask, why do you think being is playing us?
    Hana Furlough: well, Being is obviously ALWAYS there no matter what, right?
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, I don't know
    Hana Furlough: maybe not but i get that sense
    Pema Pera: many points, where to start :-) . . . .
    Pema Pera: yes, the whole notion of "purpose" needs to be inspected, and meditation is a good way to do that -- was that the sense of your Q&A, Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes.... also with aspects of what Hana was referring to from Suzuki Roshi
    Pema Pera: and yes, Hana, I agree: meditation has no purpose . . . but to unpack that sentence is an interesting challenge then
    Eos Amaterasu: Suzuki Roshi said something like, we don't practice for the sake of enlightenment; rather, because we are enlightened, we practice
    Hana Furlough: right i think that's dogen's perspective as well
    Pema Pera: As for Being playing and always being there, that may be almost too much already. Being IS, anything more may be extraneous
    Hana Furlough: but we lose touch with that in our usual way of thinking
    Pema Pera: yes, we practice as a gesture, to celebrate, showing our appreciation
    Hana Furlough: like shinran
    Pema Pera: yes, it is a universal gesture, seen in the utterances of many great figures in many traditions, but often neglected by their followers, since it is too radical and disconcerting!
    Pema Pera: also, doesn't fit in well with the idea of a franchise :-)
    Pema Pera: an organization
    Hana Furlough: i can see that
    Pema Pera: much easier to rope people in if you can offer them a goal -- you pay us and work for us, and we show you the road to salvation, good deal, hey? :)
    Hana Furlough: sounds good to me, lol
    Pema Pera: and seriously, not a bad approach -- but at some point we all have to wean off that notion
    Hana Furlough: what about the notion of a path?
    Pema Pera: it can only go so far; pretty far, but not all the way (from the relative point of view; it goes nowhere from the absolute point of view :)
    Eos Amaterasu: there's a notion of practice, or discipline, which has to do with not separating yourself at all from experience


    Pema Pera: Hi jeena, good seeing you again!
    Hana Furlough: hi jeena~
    jeena Cyberstar: hey ya'll !
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Jeena
    jeena Cyberstar: thank you
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Mary
    jeena Cyberstar: what's going on?
    Mary Korpov: hi
    Hana Furlough: hi mary
    Pema Pera: Hi Mary!
    Mary Korpov: hi
    Eos Amaterasu: We were talking about being, and being playing, and practice, and purpose, :-)
    Mary Korpov: Sounds like a light conversation
    Pema Pera: :)
    jeena Cyberstar: nice
    Hana Furlough: lighter than you can imagine : )
    jeena Cyberstar: and what do we have so far?
    Pema Pera: Come join us if you like, Mary!
    Mary Korpov: ok
    Pema Pera: Have you been here before?
    Mary Korpov: no
    jeena Cyberstar: a few times now
    Pema Pera: Mary, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    jeena Cyberstar: but i don't think i have the hang of that bell
    jeena Cyberstar: haha
    Pema Pera: (yes, Jeena, I remember, I was asking Mary, sorry)
    Mary Korpov: it's ok
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Pema Pera: well, Jeena, I think we all conclude that meditation (practice, exploration) has no real purpose :-)
    Pema Pera: and we were talking about what such a conclusion can mean . . . .
    jeena Cyberstar: really? wow i think it has a great purpose
    Mary Korpov: me too
    Pema Pera: such as?
    Mary Korpov: focusing one's mind
    jeena Cyberstar: thinking stretching the mind
    Mary Korpov: emptying the mind
    jeena Cyberstar: peacefulness
    jeena Cyberstar: calm rational thought
    Mary Korpov: nothingness
    jeena Cyberstar: quiet comfort
    Mary Korpov: no self
    jeena Cyberstar: high five Mary
    Hana Furlough: lol
    Pema Pera: yes, that is certainly a good approach, to view it that we (as we also discussed) but the question is, can we do even better than trying to do something for a purpose? We came up with the notion of meditating as a gesture of celebration or appreciation, letting all the aspects you both mentioned happen as side effects, not as something to reach for
    Pema Pera: lol indeed :-)
    Pema Pera: we'll appoint you two to the PaB propaganda department :>)
    Hana Furlough: lol that's amazing!
    Mary Korpov: Sounds like something buddhists have argued about
    Eos Amaterasu: (pretty good)
    Pema Pera: yes, but not only Buddhists
    jeena Cyberstar: think about a time when you were conflicted...
    Pema Pera: Medieval Christian mystics, Islamic Sufis, Hindus, you name them
    Hana Furlough: can you name a few of these medieval christian mystics?
    Eos Amaterasu: "once you know where it's at, there you jolly well are, aren't you?" (Lord Buckley)
    jeena Cyberstar: and the noise all around causing you to react...
    Pema Pera: oh, the anonymous writer of "The Cloud of Unknowing", or Meister Eckhart, or certain passages in Ruisbroek, etc <-- Hana
    jeena Cyberstar: without such meditation and clarity of mind...what might have been disasterous, was thwarted by mere thought
    jeena Cyberstar: i think that is the purpose...think before reacting
    Hana Furlough: great thank you
    Eos Amaterasu: even when you attain all those things, peace, etc, you still find yourself there
    Mary Korpov: Meister Eckhart, St. Francis...
    Pema Pera: yes, Francis is another great example
    jeena Cyberstar: i don't know who they are...
    Hana Furlough: neither do i. that's why i asked
    Mary Korpov: The Cloud of Unknowing is interesting--haven't read it in a while.
    Pema Pera: yes, Jeena, of course meditation can help in such situations -- but to view mediation only as a means to a goal may be limiting meditation
    Mary Korpov: Problem is that talking about this stuff seems to defeat the purpose
    jeena Cyberstar: i think the purpose is that we as individuals think for ourselves...maybe come up with soemthing new
    Pema Pera: like viewing your lover as a means to become more happy and peaceful -- that may be, but he/she is much more than that
    Pema Pera: so that's what we were talking about, just before you came in :)
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, that can be a great example of purposelessness
    Pema Pera: Glad you've come across The Cloud, Mary! It's a great little book . . . .
    Mary Korpov: It's interesting
    Mary Korpov: Julian of Norwich also has some interesting things


    jeena Cyberstar: if you mean your love makes you happy because you enjoy making he/she happy then i agree...but if you mean viewing your love as someone who can make you happy by his/her actions toward you...is not possible....which brings up "what is love"
    Pema Pera: Here's the full text of The Cloud
    Eos Amaterasu: I thnk that's an experience people have, of being together, and feeling that there's no need to go elesewhere
    Eos Amaterasu: that can be appreaciation of what's right here
    Hana Furlough: sounds just like Being
    Eos Amaterasu: which goals can seduce you away from

    Love as a purpose-free expression?

    Pema Pera: yes, Jeena, and the purest form of love may be to just express love without expecting anything in return, rare as that may be . . . .
    Hana Furlough: i'm not sure that is possible
    Mary Korpov: Depends on what you mean by love
    jeena Cyberstar: so what does love mean to everyone here?
    Mary Korpov: emptiness
    Hana Furlough: i don't know
    jeena Cyberstar: come on hana..what is love to you...everyone has a notion i was imagine
    Hana Furlough: honestly? disappointment
    jeena Cyberstar nods
    Mary Korpov: only if one is looking for something in return
    Eos Amaterasu: or something to gain
    Eos Amaterasu: (back to goals)
    Mary Korpov: love = nothingness
    jeena Cyberstar: maybe you want passion or loyalty or something else more?
    Mary Korpov: passion and love are different
    jeena Cyberstar: exactly
    jeena Cyberstar: lust vs love
    Mary Korpov: they are different, too
    Eos Amaterasu: as many words for love as for snow :-)
    jeena Cyberstar: lust is a feeling that we sense as uncontrolling feelings....love is a choice
    Mary Korpov: Really? What other words are there for love?
    Eos Amaterasu: pick a language....
    Eos Amaterasu: many shades of meaning
    Mary Korpov: Oh, I thought you meant in English. Some languages don't have a word that translates well to the English love.
    Eos Amaterasu: caritas.... agape... milosc.... compassion...
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah, quite likely!
    Mary Korpov: I'm not sure they mean "love"
    Mary Korpov: agape is Greek, right?
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    jeena Cyberstar: there describing what love in my opinion is like trying to describe "what is God"
    Mary Korpov: Does it equate with the English love? I don't know
    Eos Amaterasu: Can you say more about love as emptiness, Mary?
    Hana Furlough: jeena, i agree!
    Mary Korpov: Wow, that presents a contradiction, since emptiness implies something you can't talk about.
    Eos Amaterasu: that's why it's called play :-)
    Mary Korpov: I think love happens when one eliminates self.
    jeena Cyberstar: because it's how you interpret love and express it doesn't mean that is what it is
    jeena Cyberstar: that's why all the sad love songs :)
    jeena Cyberstar: the disappointments...etc
    Mary Korpov: Or are thy sad lust song?
    jeena Cyberstar: exactly!
    jeena Cyberstar: hehe
    Hana Furlough: thich nhat hanh says true love needs understanding, otherwise it's something else
    jeena Cyberstar: but that is not so romantic
    jeena Cyberstar: exactly
    jeena Cyberstar: but the rappers get it right
    jeena Cyberstar: haha
    Hana Furlough: lol
    Mary Korpov: I don't listen to rap
    jeena Cyberstar: me either but if you listen...they don't hide the fact that they are speaking truth
    Mary Korpov: lust seems to me to be a form of clinging; love is a form of release
    jeena Cyberstar: the truth hurts
    Mary Korpov: what's truth?
    jeena Cyberstar: and ignorance is bliss :)
    jeena Cyberstar: hahaha
    jeena Cyberstar: love it
    Mary Korpov: or do you lust after it


    jeena Cyberstar: truth we shall never know because even in the expression of truth...truth as i see and truth as you see...will likely be different so again same as love, as god...truth another enigma
    Mary Korpov: Rashomon
    jeena Cyberstar looks around..what?
    jeena Cyberstar: lol
    Eos Amaterasu: I think re Play as Being, the 90 secs and 9 secs suspensions, "all we are saying, is give being a chance"
    Pema Pera: lol, Eos!
    Eos Amaterasu: when you let it be it opens up
    Hana Furlough: it totally does
    jeena Cyberstar: lol
    Eos Amaterasu: that can be found in "being in love", so to speak
    jeena Cyberstar: "let it be, let it be...let it be...let it be...." hmmm sounds familiar
    jeena Cyberstar: :)
    jeena Cyberstar: "there will be an answer...let it be"
    jeena Cyberstar: okay maybe ya''ll too young to know that Beetles song
    jeena Cyberstar: haha
    Mary Korpov: Where does "let it be" come from?
    Eos Amaterasu: Whatever?
    jeena Cyberstar: oh my god that is the movement song of the era...Beetles?? hmm
    Mary Korpov: What era? I'm not familiar with the Beetles other than the name
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah - they actually had some really good songs, that seem to last
    jeena Cyberstar: oh wow...ok...you all should really listen to that song by paul mccartney "let it be"
    Mary Korpov: I dislike rock, intensly
    jeena Cyberstar: 60's, 70's
    jeena Cyberstar: rock is a way of life
    Mary Korpov: not for me
    jeena Cyberstar: iof rebellion
    jeena Cyberstar: expression...just another way of expression
    Mary Korpov: Maybe that's why I don't like it; I see nothing to rebel against
    jeena Cyberstar: to fight the "status quo"
    Mary Korpov: Yes, but it sounds so horrid
    Mary Korpov: I embrace the status quo
    jeena Cyberstar: must be nice to be completely content with the world
    Mary Korpov: It is what it is
    Pema Pera: (have to sneak out -- lunch coming up; nice talking with you all)
    Mary Korpov: I'm neither content or discontent
    jeena Cyberstar: people make it what it is
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye, Pema
    Mary Korpov: Bye
    jeena Cyberstar: bye perma
    Mary Korpov: I hope you can hold your lunch down
    Pema Pera: bfn
    jeena Cyberstar: haha
    Hana Furlough: bye pema
    Pema Pera: hold my lunch down?
    Pema Pera: ?
    Mary Korpov: You said it is coming up
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: well
    Pema Pera: c u !
    Eos Amaterasu: Pema is in Japan, maybe having some excellent sushi
    jeena Cyberstar: nice
    Eos Amaterasu: So Mary, re love as emptiness, is the other there?
    Mary Korpov: other what?
    Eos Amaterasu: Other person, or object of love, or lover intertwined?
    Mary Korpov: It's all one
    Eos Amaterasu: One? All? Nothing?
    Mary Korpov: IT's there, it's not there
    Eos Amaterasu: Is that play?
    Hana Furlough: back to work for me
    Hana Furlough: have a wonderful night!
    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!
    jeena Cyberstar: are you a politician? Mary
    Mary Korpov: Bye
    Mary Korpov: Don't know what you mean
    jeena Cyberstar: see ya hana
    Mary Korpov: Yes, I'm George Bush
    jeena Cyberstar: haha
    Mary Korpov: I'm not kidding
    jeena Cyberstar: yes you are
    Mary Korpov: ok, I am
    jeena Cyberstar: so you take no position on nothing?
    jeena Cyberstar: neither here nor there?
    jeena Cyberstar: in the middle?
    Mary Korpov: No position on nothing, as a double negative does that mean taking a position on something? I'm not sure how to respond
    Mary Korpov: not middle, just isness
    jeena Cyberstar: just...sorry didn't catch that last word
    Mary Korpov: The idea of middle presupposes beginning and end
    jeena Cyberstar: issues?
    Mary Korpov: Isness
    Eos Amaterasu: Madhyamika?
    Mary Korpov: Don't know that word
    Eos Amaterasu: not this, not that, not both this and that, not neither this nor that


    Eos Amaterasu: it's a way to cut off any branch you happen to be sitting on
    Mary Korpov: all and nothing
    jeena Cyberstar: so no grey areas?
    jeena Cyberstar: just black or white?
    jeena Cyberstar: or black and white
    Mary Korpov: or all grey areas
    jeena Cyberstar: ok...so true openness
    Mary Korpov: no black, not white, just isness
    Eos Amaterasu notes that Play as Being bell suggests 90 secs of silence
    Mary Korpov: shhhhhh
    Eos Amaterasu: How did that feel (a few secs of silence?)
    jeena Cyberstar: felt good
    Mary Korpov: felt silent
    jeena Cyberstar: :)
    jeena Cyberstar: haha
    Mary Korpov: fan spinning
    Eos Amaterasu: We're normally so fast
    jeena Cyberstar: mary...do you feel things?
    jeena Cyberstar: or think
    Mary Korpov: if you touch me I feel
    jeena Cyberstar: ok. ok
    jeena Cyberstar: haha
    Mary Korpov: What do you mean?
    jeena Cyberstar: that's what i'm trying figure out
    Mary Korpov: you and I are the same thing, I feel what you feel
    Mary Korpov: but feeling, as in emotions, is a form of clinging, a form of lust
    Mary Korpov: clinging
    jeena Cyberstar nods
    Mary Korpov: I'm not enlightened, so I cling sometimes
    jeena Cyberstar: it happens
    Mary Korpov: it is
    Mary Korpov: but I don't worry about it
    Mary Korpov: emotions ebb and flow. I don't fight them, I don't covet them, they just are
    jeena Cyberstar: so do you experience a lot of disappointment in love relationships?
    Mary Korpov: no
    jeena Cyberstar: well sounds like a good way to be then
    Mary Korpov: neither good nor bad, just isness
    jeena Cyberstar: i see your point now
    Mary Korpov: I don't really feel dissapointment about anything
    jeena Cyberstar: is that the honest truth?
    Mary Korpov: To be dissapointed is to cling, to worry about being dissapointed is to cling to the concern about dissapointment, so when I cling I don't worry about clinging and I'm not dissapointed
    jeena Cyberstar: ok...do you experience hurt?
    Mary Korpov: If you hit me
    jeena Cyberstar: heartache?
    Mary Korpov: I experience anything anyone else does, I just try not to cling to it
    jeena Cyberstar: i'm trying to get away from the semantics of the words and get to the gist
    jeena Cyberstar: i see
    Eos Amaterasu: There's a paradox in trying not to cling, is there not?
    Mary Korpov: Same goes for physical hurt.
    jeena Cyberstar: so not writing love songs for you? lol
    Mary Korpov: You bet there is. So the best thing is to not try not to cling, just let it go
    Mary Korpov: love songs are boring
    Eos Amaterasu: So you can afford to freely express?
    Mary Korpov: It doesn't cost anything
    Eos Amaterasu: And feel?
    Mary Korpov: feeling is clinging
    Eos Amaterasu: And be vulnerable?
    Mary Korpov: vulnerable to what?
    Eos Amaterasu: And be impressed by a butterfly?
    jeena Cyberstar: to someone you have "feelings" for
    Mary Korpov: it's all one thing, no harm can come
    Eos Amaterasu: Vulnerable to the phenomenal world?
    Mary Korpov: I am the buttefly
    Eos Amaterasu: Indeed
    jeena Cyberstar: that's deep
    Eos Amaterasu: so if no harm can come, there's nothing to worry about
    Mary Korpov: right
    Eos Amaterasu: So you can enjoy yourself?
    Eos Amaterasu: (in moderation :-)
    Mary Korpov: I just am
    Mary Korpov: I don't think about enjoyment really
    Mary Korpov: Remember, I'm blonde
    jeena Cyberstar: ohhhhhhhh that's bad lol


    Richboycool Aries walks by, emanating balls of flames
    Richboycool Aries: why dont u allow cars?
    jeena Cyberstar: seems like there should be an exception to talk to new comers while the timer is on..lol
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, there's always IM
    Mary Korpov: The trees are watching
    jeena Cyberstar: lol
    Mary Korpov: Sorry if I sound like an oddball. I've spent many years thinking and finally realized that thinking is the problem
    Eos Amaterasu: Mo matter, never mind :-)
    jeena Cyberstar: no apology necessary...and really?
    Mary Korpov: no mind
    Mary Korpov: Yes, really
    jeena Cyberstar: please explain further...
    Mary Korpov: Thinking leads to clinging; emptying the mind allows for nonclinging. Back to the purpose of meditation. Meditation is a way to stop thinking; it can become permanent.
    Mary Korpov: It is a technique to end clinging/thinking
    jeena Cyberstar: aww i see
    Mary Korpov: a means to achieve absolute dumb-blondeness
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm... things always come up
    Mary Korpov: only if you let them
    Eos Amaterasu: how can you prevent them?
    Eos Amaterasu: and why would you?
    Mary Korpov: you can't prevent them, but you can prevent them from controlling you
    jeena Cyberstar: i really don't subscribe to the dumb blond stuff...i happen to know a lot of smart blonds
    Mary Korpov: ok
    Eos Amaterasu: ditto with thoughts
    Eos Amaterasu: emotions
    Mary Korpov: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: relationships
    Mary Korpov: Relationship is an odd idea. It presumes a subject/object distinction. If all is one, then there are no relationships
    Eos Amaterasu: mabye all is deeply intertwingled
    Mary Korpov: or maybe it is just one thing
    Eos Amaterasu: not so sure about "all is one"
    Mary Korpov: how so
    Eos Amaterasu: things are , or seem to be, deeply interdependent
    Eos Amaterasu: and they each have their precise details
    Mary Korpov: Interdependence assumes that there is real differentiation
    Eos Amaterasu: as well as inherent lack of permanence and solidity
    Mary Korpov: What does infinity mean?
    Eos Amaterasu: we live in autopoietic differentiation
    Mary Korpov: we imagine differentiation
    Eos Amaterasu: imagine - that's a loaded word!
    Mary Korpov: invent
    Eos Amaterasu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis
    Mary Korpov: My basic belief is that infinity is real, but when we talk about infinity we finitize it. If infinity is real, then nothing has any boundaries--there are no boundaries, just invented divisions that appear as boundaries to us
    Eos Amaterasu: If by infinity you mean the "to see infinity in a grain of sand", I'm with you
    Mary Korpov: no, I mean, no beginning, no end, no up no down, no left, no right, no in, no out, no meaning, just is
    Eos Amaterasu: Our sense perceptions allow us access to "infinity" (same as Being?)


    Mary Korpov: Again, objectifying. We don't "Access" infinity, we are infinity
    Mary Korpov: When you talk about accessing it, you presuppose it is something other than you, you finitize it
    Eos Amaterasu: I mean that we can find infinity in this pool, in the sound of the bird, etc
    Eos Amaterasu: It's not separate from manifestation
    Mary Korpov: you can't find it, you are it
    Eos Amaterasu: true!
    Mary Korpov: If you look, it isn't there to be found; if you don't look it is everywhere and can't be avoided
    Eos Amaterasu: blondes are lipstick on shunyata, if I can modify a famous line
    Eos Amaterasu: (anne waldman)
    Mary Korpov: Not sure what shunyata is, but blondes and lipstick certianly go together
    jeena Cyberstar: lol
    Eos Amaterasu: shunya: empty (but same root as swollen); ta: anything can happen
    Mary Korpov: mine is strawberry
    Eos Amaterasu: strawberry lipstick?
    Mary Korpov: yes
    Mary Korpov: the color, not the flavour
    Eos Amaterasu: we still choose to adorn emptiness/fullness; what we can't find, what is everywhere
    Mary Korpov: alas, we do
    Eos Amaterasu: but that's part of the self-expressiveness
    Mary Korpov: self-expressiveness is the anathema of no-self
    Mary Korpov: I must go. It's late in my neck of the nothingness
    Eos Amaterasu: there's the somewhat adolescent self-expressiveness/rebellion you alluded to earlier
    Eos Amaterasu: Ditto here, see you here again!
    Mary Korpov: yes--I don't rebel anymore, just live
    Mary Korpov: Good night
    Eos Amaterasu: Nothing to talk about, so we can relax!
    jeena Cyberstar: goodnight mary...nice chatting
    jeena Cyberstar: darn i'm slow
    jeena Cyberstar: haha
    Eos Amaterasu: How so?
    jeena Cyberstar: she left fast
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Toda
    jeena Cyberstar: hi toda :) you missed great conversation with the group seems to have ended now
    Eos Amaterasu: It's also quite late here.... half past nothing :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: Have you been here before, Toda (apologies for asking)?
    jeena Cyberstar: so is it over? do you normally have a specific time when everyone comes on?
    Eos Amaterasu: 1 am, 7 am, 1 pm, 6 pm Second Life time
    jeena Cyberstar: i just come randomly sometimes nobody here..ok good to know
    jeena Cyberstar: well great chatting!
    jeena Cyberstar: have a good night
    Eos Amaterasu: Good night, Jeena
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