2009.08.05 13:00 - Symmetry and other games

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    Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session, which ended up nicely poised between earnest and silliness.

    Wol Euler: hello hana, shyama
    Hana Furlough: hello wul and shyama!
    Wol Euler: brb, I got in late and am still making tea :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
    Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
    Wol Euler: how is everyone this evening?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: warm :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi yakuzza
    Wol Euler: :)
    Hana Furlough: hi yakuzza~
    Hana Furlough: so what's on everyone's mind today?
    Wol Euler: tea :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: lol..i was wondering the light ball in yakuzzas hands, but it is a cuo of tea
    Wol Euler: hello qt
    Qt Core: hi all
    Hana Furlough: hi qt
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, it's supposed to be hot green tea :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi qt
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey qt
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no relations to linux ?


    Qt Core: me ? many, but not from my name ;-)


    Shyama notices that we are sitting symmetrically, mirrored about the fountain.

    Shyama Sheryffe: we r sitting very nicely in symmetry :)
    Hana Furlough: unforseen
    Wol Euler: indeed, I just took a photo from above
    Qt Core: some of us are obsessed with it ;-)
    Wol Euler looks around curiously.
    Hana Furlough: have you ever read the book symmetry?
    Shyama Sheryffe: no ?
    Wol Euler: no, don't know that.
    Hana Furlough: oh you really should
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey fael
    Wol Euler: what's it about?
    Hana Furlough: it's a mathematician who studies symmetry
    Wol Euler: ah
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Shyama,Hana, Yakuzza, Qt :)
    Wol Euler: hello fael
    Qt Core: there are several;, i think i have a couple of them around (unreaded yet)
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi fael :)
    Qt Core: hi Fael
    Hana Furlough: apparently all possible symmetries have been mapped out across a whole spectrum of dimensions
    Hana Furlough: hi fael
    Shyama Sheryffe: smiles at wol
    Hana Furlough: anyway, he spends a lot of the book appreciating symmetries
    Hana Furlough: it's really nice
    Wol Euler: nice! well done hana
    Fael Illyar: I see... symmetry important today?
    Shyama Sheryffe: symmetry is nice and balancing
    Wol Euler: always, fael :)


    Fael deliberately moves aside to break the symmetry.

    Wol Euler: ah, boo!
    Fael Illyar giggles.
    Wol Euler: spoilsport.
    Shyama Sheryffe: if qt would move...


    He does.

    Wol Euler grins.


    Fael again shifts to another, assymetrically placed, cushion.

    Wol Euler sighs.
    Shyama Sheryffe: lol
    Wol Euler: you are determined to be difficult, aren't you?
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Wol Euler: oh, wait, 1 2 3. I see it now.
    Shyama Sheryffe: perhaps we always need to brake the symmetry too
    Fael Illyar: I've my own view of the symmetry :P
    Fael Illyar: it didn't match yours :)
    Wol Euler: I noticed.
    Qt Core: we are even gender symmetric ;-)
    Shyama Sheryffe: yes, faels symmetry is creative :)
    Wol Euler: true
    Fael Illyar: This is the dress from the lucky chair at that place with the "discount" the other day :)
    Fael Illyar: ... was that yesterday?
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, it was :)
    Wol Euler: nice :)


    Fael Illyar: I didn't like the ones for sale enough to buy but... Funny I like this one :)
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Fael Illyar: Hi ara, Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: hiya
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    Hana Furlough: hi mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi guys
    Wol Euler: oops ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya mick
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi mick, arabella
    Qt Core: hi Mick
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ara


    Mickorod and Arabella choose seats across the fountain, restoring the group's symmetry.

    Shyama Sheryffe: perfect symmetry now
    Hana Furlough: hi ara
    Wol Euler smiles
    Mickorod Renard: have u a subject on the go?
    Wol Euler: symmetry?
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: purfect
    Wol Euler: Hana had started to tell about a book called "symmetry"
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Wol Euler looks across encouragingly.
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Mickorod Renard: whats it all about then Hana?
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Hana Furlough: lol


    We discuss the book that Hana mentioned.

    Hana Furlough: well it's by a mathematician at oxford
    Mickorod Renard: do u know his name?
    Hana Furlough: a lot of it was over my head, being that i don't specialize in math
    Hana Furlough: one moment
    Wol Euler: but it was interesting enough that you kept going, I infer?
    Hana Furlough: yes, i'm still reading
    Mickorod Renard: yes,dont let me distract you
    Hana Furlough: it's by marcus du satoy
    Hana Furlough: http://www.amazon.com/Symmetry-Journ...9504517&sr=1-1
    Mickorod Renard: ty
    Hana Furlough: it's really nice though
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey sophia
    Mickorod Renard: hi Sophia
    sophia Placebo: hi yak all
    Wol Euler: hello sophia, nice to see you again
    Hana Furlough: apparently some of the early mathematicians were trying to find out about god in numbers
    Qt Core: ohh, i love him, you all should read his book about prime numbers, one of the best book i ever read (and reread)
    Hana Furlough: his sophia
    Hana Furlough: really?
    Hana Furlough: ok will do~
    sophia Placebo: same to you wol :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi sophia
    arabella Ella: hiya sophia
    Mickorod Renard: has he something revealing to say?
    arabella Ella: i have watched documentaries about the search for perfection or God in numbers
    Fael Illyar: Hi Bert :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi bert
    arabella Ella: Hiya Bertram
    Hana Furlough: well there's this one part where he talks to a christian on the plane, and he basically dismisses the guy because his interest was motivated in revealing the divine through math
    sophia Placebo: Hi Bert
    Hana Furlough: hi bert
    Wol Euler: hello bertram
    arabella Ella: what is your opinion on that Hana?
    Mickorod Renard: "Professor Marcus du Sautoy is a professor of mathematics at the University of Oxford. His research interests include understanding the world of symmetry using zeta functions, a classical tool from number theory. His work uses a wide range of methods including p-adic Lie groups, model theory, algebraic geometry and analytic methods."


    Math and appreciation.

    Hana Furlough: i think math is a great tool for appreciation
    Hana Furlough: yeah and the funny thing is, he is so good at appreciation in the book!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Eliza :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
    Hana Furlough: i found it odd that he wasn't so open to the idea of god
    Mickorod Renard: sounds like we should invite him to PaB
    arabella Ella: Hiya Eliza
    sophia Placebo: hi eliza
    Hana Furlough: hi there eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone :)
    Wol Euler: hello eliza
    Hana Furlough: we totally should~
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza, and Bert
    arabella Ella: appreciation of what though Hana?
    Eliza Madrigal: Wow, just happened to rezz on an open pillow :)
    Hana Furlough: of math, symmetry, possibilities
    Bertram Jacobus: hy eliza ... :-)
    Hana Furlough: how was the book on primes?
    Bertram Jacobus: hy eliza ... (chat lag here?) ... hm ... ;-)
    Qt Core: it is not full of math, but full of the stories of the efforts matematicians did in the past decades to demonstrate the Reienmann congecture about primes
    Bertram Jacobus: hello ariasia ... :-)
    Arisia Vita: Hi all
    Qt Core: i almost felt the tension and the urge they had
    sophia Placebo: hi arisia
    Hana Furlough: hi arisla
    Fael Illyar: Hi Ari :)


    Wol Euler: hello ari, nice to see you.
    Hana Furlough: yeah parts of symmetry are inspiring like that too!
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ari
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Ari!
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi eliza, arisia :)
    Qt Core: the best bart is the one about Ramanujan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramanujan)
    Mickorod Renard: "I'm trying to use a zeta-function not to understand how prime numbers are distributed, but to understand what sort of symmetries can exist. It is like putting on a completely different pair of glasses. I'm looking at the things that I want to understand, but I'll take the glasses from number theory, and you get a completely different view of these things. I think that's very exciting. I'll try on as many pairs of glasses as I can!"
    Mickorod Renard: sorry,,that was the prof
    arabella Ella: :)


    Symmetry, circularity and karma.

    Shyama Sheryffe: hm.. could symmetry hav something to do with karma doctrine ?
    Hana Furlough: pretty nice, right?
    Hana Furlough: what do you mean shy?
    Shyama Sheryffe: well, if i throw a ball to the wall
    Shyama Sheryffe: it bounces back symmetrcally to me
    Wol Euler: (allowing for frictional losses and gravity, but yes :)
    Wol Euler <- pedant
    Shyama Sheryffe: lol
    Shyama Sheryffe: so perhaps symmetry is behind everything
    arabella Ella: some people claim it is but
    arabella Ella: i think it is simply part of our perception
    Bertram Jacobus: wol - tibetans say the relative should be handled as fine as farina ... ;-)
    arabella Ella: just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder
    Hana Furlough: well i would agree that there is a pattern to what we see in the universe
    Wol Euler looks at her hands and ponders.
    Hana Furlough: but what we see is not always so
    Hana Furlough: there's this really nice point in symmetry where du satoy says that math is random and not random
    Wol Euler smiles


    Absolute or relative, Being, randomness.

    Hana Furlough: so do you think Being might be something beyond random?
    Mickorod Renard: I think that question is too much for my por old brain
    Hana Furlough: lol
    Bertram Jacobus: isn't random relative and being absolute ?
    Hana Furlough: or is Being just absolutely relative?
    Bertram Jacobus: or may be both
    Hana Furlough: ok
    Wol Euler: "beyond" doesn't fit well for me, I am trying to put my finger on why.
    Fael Illyar: Being is a non-concept that can be useful in dispelling notions that prevent understanding.
    Hana Furlough: perhaps "greater than"?
    Mickorod Renard: I think this is why God is a useful description sometimes,,as he is often described as unquantifiable, should you believe in Him


    Pi, patterns, fractals and randomness.

    Wol Euler: there is randomness in things like expanding Pi to billions of decimal places, without ever seeing a repeated pattern in it
    Wol Euler: but that might only mean that we don't really understand Pi. If we were to look at it another way, we might recognize patterns ...
    Hana Furlough: yeah i was wondering about that
    Fael Illyar: Pi itself is a pattern :)
    Wol Euler: say more?
    Fael Illyar: whether it repeats or not does not make a difference :)
    Wol Euler: then what is its pattern-ness?
    Fael Illyar: Hi Moon :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi moon ... :-)
    Hana Furlough: hi moon
    Moon Fargis: greetings everyone
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Moon
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi moon
    Wol Euler: hello moon!
    Moon Fargis looks around a bit
    Fael Illyar: Pi is like a fractal in that.
    arabella Ella: Hiya Moon :)
    Hana Furlough: what's a fractal?
    Mickorod Renard: I think fractals are the way to go
    Eliza Madrigal smiles big, feeling hugged by flowers
    Mickorod Renard: nature is full of fractals
    Hana Furlough: wow this is so nice
    Wol Euler: you'll have to explain that to me Fael, because fractals are full of repetition on many scales. Pi doesn't repeat.
    Hana Furlough: s that like fibonacci?
    Fael Illyar: you can keep going, it never ends :)
    Moon Fargis: ^^ you can say that pi is the allmighty number


    Moon Fargis: cus when you develop a algorythm, that can put numbers to words or letters, pi could theoretical contan every spoken wrd of the time
    Moon Fargis: ah hmm well seems ive been callen already but was a nice . ehm talk so far:))
    Moon Fargis: see you soon ^^/
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Shyama Sheryffe: flowers were nice :)
    Hana Furlough: bye
    Mickorod Renard: A fractal is generally "a rough or fragmented geometric shape that can be split into parts, each of which is (at least approximately) a reduced-size copy of the whole"
    Bertram Jacobus: hi singularity
    Mickorod Renard: some say that the universe can be explained in fractal terms
    Yakuzza Lethecus sneaks away, good night everyone
    Shyama Sheryffe: does it have to do something with holographs ?
    Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku
    Wol Euler: 'night yak, take care
    Bertram Jacobus: good night to you too yakuza
    Wol Euler: singularity, have a seat, join us :)
    Hana Furlough: good night yakuzza
    Hana Furlough: hi singularity
    Mickorod Renard: holographs in some form may also be part of a mystery of what we consist of
    Wol Euler: I'll give you an intro in IM to avoid disturbing the group
    Hana Furlough: so what would that mean if we could explain the universe in terms of fractals
    Hana Furlough: ?
    Mickorod Renard: something like that you could keep looking smaller and smaller and find that it never ends
    Shyama Sheryffe: could it mean that in each of us is the same principle as in the whole universe ?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe
    Hana Furlough: jinx, shyama!
    Hana Furlough: i was just wondering that
    Mickorod Renard: and the universe is a lil atom in another universe
    Hana Furlough: wow's that's really nice~
    Shyama Sheryffe: and atom is an universe
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Mickorod Renard: but perhaps we should stay within the realms of what we understand here
    Eliza Madrigal: I need to go. I think I will really enjoy reading this log but there've been too many distractions in RL to keep up :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see everyone , bye for now
    arabella Ella: bye Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
    Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care
    Bertram Jacobus: i'll leave - ty for the talk, have a nice time and may all beings be happy please ...
    Wol Euler: and bye bertram
    Mickorod Renard: bye Bert
    Qt Core: bye eliza, bert
    arabella Ella: bye Bert
    Hana Furlough: bye bert!

    The goodbyes leave us with a smaller, nearly symmetrical group.

    arabella Ella: oh no we have lost our symmetry in the circle now :)
    Hana Furlough: bye eliza
    Wol Euler: eh, that went long ago :)
    Wol Euler: fael could restore it, but probably won't :-P
    arabella Ella: came and went tonight :)
    Mickorod Renard: smetry in our daily lives is perhaps good?
    arabella Ella: come on Fael?
    Wol Euler: c'mon, just this once, it won't hurt :)
    Hana Furlough: but asymmetry has such a nice aesthetic too~
    Shyama Sheryffe: i was just thinking...
    Shyama Sheryffe: same..
    arabella Ella: could we take regularity in our lives to be symmetry?
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking balance
    Fael Illyar: symmetry looks lost, no matter what I do :)
    Singularity Soler: no
    Wol Euler: balance, or circularities too
    arabella Ella: i was thinking more like routine which is integral to our lives
    Qt Core: or it is that we can just know beforehand how things are going to go, seeing only part of "the thing"
    Mickorod Renard: but the routine may not be balanced
    Wol Euler: true; I had lost sight of Singularity.
    Singularity Soler: thats not symmetry... it may be repetition.. .buts is not symetrical
    Fael Illyar: oh wait, it isn't :)
    Wol Euler: aprt from you, it is :)
    Fael Illyar: Although, this way singularity can't join th symmetry :)
    Wol Euler: mirror symmetry on a line from fael to hana
    arabella Ella: :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: this brings to me he yin - yang symbol
    Singularity Soler: no.... a pattern is not determined to be symetrical that merely repeats.. .that is another pattern
    Wol Euler: anyway :)
    Singularity Soler: symmetry has to do with mirror image and its effect... balance.... could be part of that or not
    arabella Ella: but if something is symmetrical isnt it just a repeated pattern mirror image?
    Singularity Soler: the underlying pattern of daily life is really in blance
    Wol Euler: ara, there are also rotational symmetries, like the blades of a fan.


    arabella Ella: like for eg we wake up and get dressed mornings, mirror image at night?
    Hana Furlough: or a starfish
    Singularity Soler: you forget causaility ensures that is one directional
    Singularity Soler: you dont get dressed before you get up... at least lets not hope so
    Singularity Soler: that would be a mirror of the causality dimension
    Shyama Sheryffe: would that be a nice life if we only repeat symmetrically every day things we do ?
    Wol Euler: true, but neither do you go to bed before getting undressed.
    Mickorod Renard: I have
    Shyama Sheryffe: lol
    Wol Euler: well, ok, fair enough. I knew as I said it that it was contentious :)
    Mickorod Renard: but then I get up already dressed,,so its balanced
    Hana Furlough: nice!
    Shyama Sheryffe: perhaps we need both..asymmetry in symmetry
    Wol Euler nods
    arabella Ella: random and non random too as Hana said earlier tonight
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: and if we look at science today some is random some appears not to be random
    Mickorod Renard: dualistic?
    Hana Furlough: yeah
    Qt Core: i think we like for the world outside us to be symmetric (prevedible) and our impact to it asymmetric, "special" and recognizable
    arabella Ella: :)
    Wol Euler: ah, nice idea QT!
    Hana Furlough: right but we need to get comfortable with uncertainty
    Hana Furlough: otherwise we will never really see
    Mickorod Renard: even the days are light and dark and the seasons too
    Mickorod Renard: balance in ways
    Shyama Sheryffe: and sometimes it storm..but we dont know when
    Hana Furlough: is there balance in a storm?
    Mickorod Renard: ok guys,,I must get home,,feed the sl pets and so on
    arabella Ella: nite Mick
    Fael Illyar: See you later Mick :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: nite Mick
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite everyone
    Qt Core: bye mick
    Wol Euler: bye mick, take care
    Hana Furlough: nite mick~
    arabella Ella: nite everyone must go too :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: i have to go too, nite everyone
    arabella Ella: thanks for the interesting chat :)
    Wol Euler: and I! an exodus.
    Wol Euler: goodnight ara, shyama, and everyon else too.
    Fael Illyar: See you later Shyama :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Wol :)
    Hana Furlough: i should go as well
    Qt Core: bye all leaving friends ;-)
    Wol Euler: be happy, whether random or not :)
    Hana Furlough: thanks everyone
    Fael Illyar: See you later Hana :)
    Hana Furlough: haha thanks wol!
    Hana Furlough: ttys!
    Qt Core: ok, i have to goo too, bye all
    Fael Illyar: See you later Qt :)
    Arisia Vita: bye Qt
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