2009.08.08 01:00 - Needs and Wants

The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are by Scathach Rhiadra.

Wol, Yakuzza, Bertram and Bertrum were present for this session.

After greetings, Wol explained some of the GoC duties......

Scathach Rhiadra: good morning Wol:)
Wol Euler: good morning Scath :)
Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi sca
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi wol
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Yakuzza
Wol Euler: hello bertram. The gang's all here :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: and good morning bertram
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Bertram
Bertram Jacobus: hello ! good morning all :-))
Scathach Rhiadra: how is everyone today, good I hope?
Wol Euler: pretty well so far :) Looking forward to having a weekend off work.
Bertram Jacobus: thank you - fine ... "but" much changes in my life at the moment - and you ? :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, I'm sure you are:)
Scathach Rhiadra: <- Wol
Wol Euler: ty
Wol Euler: how are you, Scath?
Scathach Rhiadra: I'm fine, ty:)
Bertram Jacobus: do these meetings have a minimum length ? :-)
Wol Euler: are you in a hurry?
Bertram Jacobus: no. i only would like to know
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wol Euler: the guardian is supposed to stay for 30 minutes :)
Wol Euler: in case of latecomers
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx, i was asking myself the same :)
Bertram Jacobus: ah okay. i experienced at least one hour every time i was here now ... :-)
Wol Euler smiles. Almost all are much longer than 30 mins.
Wol Euler: the record is six hours.
Bertram Jacobus: so that means when latecomers join and one comes all 30 minutes, the meeting must go on and on ? ;-)
Scathach Rhiadra: no, it doesn't have to go on:)
Yakuzza Lethecus: what only 6 hours ? and then everyone left the next session right away ? :)
Wol Euler: people stayed on into the next session :)
Wol Euler: smooth transition :)
Bertram Jacobus: i understood it different : when the recording time is 6 hours ... and that all 6 hours ... then that is if used 24/7 ! ... :-)
Wol Euler: so I suppose you could say that session went on for a little over seven hours
Bertram Jacobus: but wol ? did i understand you not right ? : when latecomers arrive, guardians are supposed to sty than 30 more minutes ?
Bertram Jacobus: stay*
Wol Euler: mmmmm, the actual wording is that the guardians should stay for 30 minutes after the nominal start of the session, e.g. until 01:30
Wol Euler: but may stay longer if they wish
Bertram Jacobus: ah. ty :-)

Bertrum joined us as Yakuzza introduced the topic which was to occupy us for the rest of the session - 'What do we really need in life?'......

Scathach Rhiadra: so, any topic you would like to talk about?
Bertram Jacobus: you have one scat perhaps ?
Scathach Rhiadra: no, not a thing , anyone else?
Wol Euler smiles.
Bertram Jacobus: i´m thinking ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: What do we really need in life ?
Bertram Jacobus: that was a similar thougt as mine actual yaku ... (!) :-)
Wol Euler: well, that sounds like a topic. Start us off?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Bertrum:)
Bertram Jacobus: hello bertrum (!) ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: Hello Betrum :)
Wol Euler: hello bertrum, nice to see you again
Bertrum Quan: hi everyone
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: i think, one could start for example to examine what we mean, when we say "need" ...
Scathach Rhiadra: (Bertrum, Yakuzza has suggested a topic 'what do we really need in life')
Yakuzza Lethecus: Hmm there was Maslow with his pyramid but in everyday i think more about concrete things, like do i really need a new car should i consume these or that, should i watch tv or read a book.
Wol Euler: (( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs ))
Scathach Rhiadra: so do you see a difference between needs and wants?
Wol Euler: definitely :)
Bertram Jacobus: in german : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslowsche_Bed%C3%BCrfnispyramide ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: which one wol. could you explain ?
Wol Euler: well, wants are largely about self-perception and projection of self, whereas true needs are things that our bodies require.
Wol Euler: these do of course overlap: we need food else we die, but we want cordon bleu instead of McDonalds
Wol Euler: the want tells the world who we think we are, or tells us something about who we want to be
Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm fastfood, an association of mine in that case is often
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kognitive_Dissonanz
Wol Euler: right :)
Bertram Jacobus: so yaku asks for wants ... (?)
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Yakuzza Lethecus: When i know that something is good for me but i decide the opposite
Wol Euler: there is a simple way to tel the difference: start with "I want..." and continue with "...because..."
Yakuzza Lethecus: so the chicken mc nuggets are more attractive then the cordon bleu often :)
Wol Euler smiles
Wol Euler: or wanting a car when what we need is transportation
Wol Euler: (a bus or a tram or our legs would do as well)
Yakuzza Lethecus: and our legs are even better
Wol Euler: better in many ways, yes; so what is the sense of that "want a car"?
Yakuzza Lethecus: It depends where you live, in a bigger town you might not need a car, here on the countryside you definetly need one
Wol Euler: but your grandparents grew up there without a car...

We had been talking of 'wants' in terms of desires or grasping, but Bertrum reminds us that the word has another meaning......

Bertrum Quan: If we play with the word "wants" we can expand the meaning to what is lacking, deficient,,,
Scathach Rhiadra: can you say more Bertrum?
Yakuzza Lethecus: they had horses and they worked at home since they were farmers(both sides) :
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Bertram Jacobus: but i would not call that "need", too yaku -
Yakuzza Lethecus: not really, right
Bertrum Quan: The idea of someting, or some one wanting... it has that other meaning. The first meaning is as described by Wol. The other meaning is one of deficiency.
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: no obviously not :)
--BELL--
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, I understand that now, ty :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: But for example when i think about the issue how i get in contact with the world and how i came to second life we safe much time by using the internet and this kind of communication then we would need to visit each other every day so in the past you might not visited a library because you hat to work 10hrs a day and then ,,walk" 5 km to the next smaller town with small library or discussion group(i don´t believe something like that existed maybe at the local bar :P )
Wol Euler: so that is a socially-created need, based on a lifestyle
Scathach Rhiadra: so depending where we live in the world, our wants could really be for our basic needs, e.g. food, water, shelter. Or could be to fulfil totally unneeded desires
Wol Euler: *socially-based, not created
Bertram Jacobus: yes. but what is your conclusion from that in relation to wants and needs yaku please ?
Wol Euler: definitely, scath. The need for protection from snow and ice overrules the need for friendly conversatio
Bertram Jacobus: and i like the maslow thing ... thanks for the link yaku
Wol Euler: that was the idea behind Maslow's pyramid: only if hte lower levels of need are met, will we be able to feel the upper needs
Bertrum Quan: in terms of how we use the words, need and wants can mean the same thing...
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Yakuzza Lethecus: ähm my problem is often that needs sneak in tacidly, in the past i was happy how i was as a child but then i got into problems because i couldn´t achieve the things i wanted like to attend college because i believed that i don´t understand math and technical stuff on an abstract point of view
Wol Euler: can refer to the same objects, sure.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i thought that how i was was more innert
Yakuzza Lethecus: omg, it´s really getting blurry and complicated :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t find your explanations so blurry yaku ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i never thought that much about the issue ,,how my environment shifts what i think i am", i just thought that i didn´t achieve my goals because i was just not made for that so i think i had needs to achieve my goals
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i didn´t even know them
Wol Euler nodfs
Yakuzza Lethecus: but right now i think more about the issue that i decided to be unhappy because of not achieving what i wanted in the past
Yakuzza Lethecus: and that was definetly a wrong mindset
Wol Euler: agreed.
Yakuzza Lethecus: so ,,i know" that i always wanted to and i tried the wrong way but without success you get in conflicts during adolecence
Wol Euler: by the way, that maps well onto Maslow's pyramid :)
Wol Euler: going to university is a self-actualization need, the peak of hte pyramid.
Wol Euler: feeling happy in yourself is an esteem need, the level below it.
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah :)
Wol Euler: which is why becoming happy with yourself rightly comes before being able to go to university.
Wol Euler grins. It's nice to see theories working out in RL examples :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: for example i am 27 now and even my job training is finished for 4 years :)
Bertram Jacobus: you think, you can´t visit an university when you are not happy with yourself wol ??
Yakuzza Lethecus: but it´s still one of the most dominant thoughts :P
Wol Euler: I think that Yakuzza couldn't.
Bertram Jacobus: ah. hmmmm :-)
Bertram Jacobus: (thinking) ... (with no result may be) ? ;-)
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: not being in the moment is one of the main problems :)
Wol Euler: write that down :)
Bertram Jacobus: to avoid misunderstandings : i meant that my thinking in this case may be without any result (!) ... :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: the wants of the mind, whether desires or defeciencies, seem to completely dominate our lives
Yakuzza Lethecus: i often have the issue that thinking about that was often without result, i even think i often ,,think in language" the same negative phrases i thought 5 years ago
Wol Euler nods.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i want to be better but somehow i get stuck

Yakuzza has to go, but leaves his avatar behind......

Yakuzza Lethecus: anyway, i have to leave :(
Yakuzza Lethecus: i stay here
Yakuzza Lethecus: with av
Wol Euler: ah :)
Wol Euler: bye, yak's typist :)
Bertram Jacobus: my impression is, that always happens something even if we don´t notice it sometimes
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Yakuzza, have a good day!
Bertram Jacobus: then have a nice day yaku !
Wol Euler whispers: we can decorate his av. Does anyone have tinsel or coloured tape?
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Bertrum Quan: bye Yaku
Bertram Jacobus: too sad that decoration seems to be forbidden here (?) ...
Wol Euler: it's a no-build zone, because of all the noobs at the welcome area in the next sim.
Bertram Jacobus: ah ! a noob area ! did not know that yet :-)
Wol Euler nods. One of the welcome areas is just south of us

I supply a little decoration thanks to Moon's garden......

Scathach Rhiadra: some decoration:)
Wol Euler: nice, thank you!
Bertram Jacobus: ahhh - yes - may be i was there already ... now i have a slight remembering ... :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: thanks to Moon!
Wol Euler: a great invention.
Bertram Jacobus: which one please ?
Scathach Rhiadra: can you see the flowers?
Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. how does that work ? ah - its wearable ? ... ;-)
Wol Euler: :)
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Wol Euler: instant garden
Bertram Jacobus: really nice trick for no built areas ! :-)
Bertram Jacobus: is it copy and transfer and could i have that too perhaps ?
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, I will try to give you a copy
Bertram Jacobus: ty already for the try ! :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: no, it is no copy, so I think you will have to get it from Moon
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll ask him. and then - ty for the hint :-)
Wol Euler: hello fael
Bertram Jacobus: hi fael ... :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Fael:)
Wol Euler: you are channeling late-90s Prince today :)

Fael joins us and the talk turns to the need for freedom; mental freedom and the sense of freedom in awareness......

Fael Illyar: Hi Bert, Bert, Wol, Scath :)
Bertrum Quan: Hi Fael
Wol Euler: a nice look.
--BELL--
Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
Wol Euler: we had been talking about the difference between needs and wants.
Fael Illyar: sounds interesting :)
Scathach Rhiadra: sort of petered out, maybe we needed silence:)
Bertram Jacobus: yaku gave us a link to the maslow pyramide - there is written that freedom would be a physical need - i don´t understand that - a person in a prison does live without freedom (?)
Bertram Jacobus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow'
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe free in their own mind?
Fael Illyar: mental freedom would seem more important to me
Wol Euler: "freedom" seems a bit vague to me (it's not in the english wiki page)
Scathach Rhiadra: is there not some famous expression, man is free but always in chains, or something like that?
Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
Wol Euler: Rousseau, I think.
Bertram Jacobus: never heard that scat ! ... :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, ty:)
Wol Euler: "Freedom may be mankind's natural state, but so is sitting in a tree eating your dinner while it's still wriggling." Terry Pratchett :)
Bertram Jacobus: ("it´s not in the english wiki") - that says once again something about wiki ... ;-)
Fael Illyar: mental freedom ... perhaps that could be characerized as being able to think and feel without being afraid to do so.
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Bertrum Quan: to become aware--enlightened in some way to me equates to a sense of freedom
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, really seeing clearly
Bertrum Quan: yes.
Wol Euler: yes, scath, that's better: the clarity of in-sight leads to freedom from wrong action and wrong thoughts
--BELL--
Scathach Rhiadra: or the awareness leads to seeing clearly

So, which comes first, clear seeing or awareness?  Or, is the clear seeing the 'knowingness' of awareness?  And who (or what) is aware?

Bertram Jacobus: awareness and a suitable handling of the relative ? ...
Wol Euler: wb fael
Fael Illyar: internet connection appears flaky again, though not the wlan this time.
Scathach Rhiadra: awareness is often called lucid, or knowing, so being aware would mean knowing how (or if) to act
Bertram Jacobus: but may be suitable handling could devolop awareness ? both influence each other ?
Wol Euler: probably, yes :)
Wol Euler: "learn by doing" does work, after all :)
Scathach Rhiadra: or then we get to the question of 'who' is doing the doing, so to speak:)
Wol Euler: :)
Bertram Jacobus: is it a rhetorical question ? ;-)
Wol Euler: not at all. It's an odd.sounding but very important question: which part of you, which internal voice, is it that is speaking now?
Bertram Jacobus: don´t i losse myself only in infinity asking or researching such questions ?
Bertram Jacobus: loose*
Wol Euler: our self-criticism is often the internalization of other people: our parents' displeasure, the math teacher who threw up his hands and siad "you'll never understand this"
Scathach Rhiadra: when Bertrum said being aware gives a sense of freedom, that could be freedom from the wanting, needy self?
Wol Euler: we speak to ourselves in these voices, using their opinions
Bertram Jacobus: yes scat i believe that could be. that he meant that, too -
Wol Euler nods.
Bertrum Quan: Yes.
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Wol Euler: a man of few words .9
Wol Euler: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
--BELL--
Wol Euler: re-wb fael

Time for goodbyes......

Scathach Rhiadra: good night Bertrum, thank you:)
Bertram Jacobus: i didn´t notice that you are alreday here bertrum lol. mixed you up with flaking fael ... sry ... ;-) - this also as contribution to the topic "awareness" (but strange : i feel a bit free nevertheless) (!?) ;-)
Fael Illyar: good night Bert :)
Bertram Jacobus: good night bertrum
Wol Euler: bye bertrum, sleep well.
Fael Illyar: maybe my connection might stay stable now :)
Bertrum Quan: "night everyone.
Bertram Jacobus: iw ish it for you fale (and wb also)
Bertram Jacobus: fael* sry
Scathach Rhiadra: wb Fael:)
Fael Illyar: what did miss?
Wol Euler: the dancing elephants, those were cool.
Fael Illyar smiles.
Scathach Rhiadra: heehee:)
Bertram Jacobus: a pyramid of four ! :-)
Wol Euler: I'll give you a notecard
Wol Euler: RL needs notecards, and a chat history window :/
Scathach Rhiadra: yes definitely!
Wol Euler: and they really have to fix TP.
Scathach Rhiadra: and IM!
Wol Euler: IM would be great, yes.
Scathach Rhiadra: well, I think my wanting needy self needs some breakfast and to do some shopping
Wol Euler: hehehehehe
Wol Euler: I was just thinking the same, I *need* to get downtown before the forecast afternoon rains start
Scathach Rhiadra: mm, I had better take the garden with me, sorry Yakuzza won't see it when he returns
Bertram Jacobus: then have a nice day scat and wol
Wol Euler: bye bertram, take care.
Wol Euler: bye yakuzza, enjoy the day
Scathach Rhiadra: you too, Bertram!
Bertram Jacobus: i try to ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: ty
Wol Euler: bye scath, happy breakfasting
Bertram Jacobus: (try to take care) ... ;-)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Yakuzza, bye Wol, have a good day!
Wol Euler: see you all anon :)
Bertram Jacobus: (bye yakuzza) ... :-)