2009.08.08 07:00 - To Pray : To ask, to thank, to drop and to hope

The Guardian for this meeting was sophia Placebo. The comments are by sophia Placebo.

sophia Placebo: hello
Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
Pema Pera: Thank you again for a wonderful conversation yesterday.
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: My morning session ! you are very welcome , sorry for being extremely late , but i took a nap un intentionally :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: we arrived at exactly the same time too, good timing!
Pema Pera: I'm in California now, so my local time is SL time, very convenient
sophia Placebo: hehe yes
Pema Pera: just had an early breakfast
sophia Placebo: sometimes i dont know anymore what time is what
sophia Placebo: i had to read some notes like for 5 times
Pema Pera: yes, it can be very confusing, especially when people say "today" or "tomorrow" in email . . . different for different time zones
sophia Placebo: true

Devotion from scratch :

Pema Pera: Yesterday, I had no idea what to expect, with a theme session on prayer -- it was fascinating to see Geo very quickly connecting prayer with love
sophia Placebo: it hard not to :)
Pema Pera: that's true
Pema Pera: devotion is such a central topic . . . but not a very popular topic to talk about these days
sophia Placebo nods
Pema Pera: yet everybody is devoted to all kind of things: work, family, money, whatever
Pema Pera: they just don't call it "devotion"
Pema Pera: so there are two ways to point out how to learn true devotion: either to start from scratch, which is the hard way; or to notion all the devotion you already bring in, and change the direction a bit
Pema Pera: the first way is like getting a ship to move
Pema Pera: the second way is like changing the rudder, much easier :)
Pema Pera: *to note
sophia Placebo: i like the first
sophia Placebo: i guess that how i do my homeworks at school :)
Pema Pera: in what way?
Pema Pera: starting from scratch?
sophia Placebo: from scratch
Pema Pera: can you give an example?
sophia Placebo: at least that what my teacher kept telling me , you always use the hard way to solve things
sophia Placebo: hmm ,like if the home work is what is pab?
Pema Pera: yes?
sophia Placebo: three letters
sophia Placebo: then build up untill you reach what ever you reach
sophia Placebo: it is a sim , a place where ava gathers 4 times a day .... like this
sophia Placebo: second way is like copying what was written in the wiki plus something i add
sophia Placebo: i dont know if im making sense
Pema Pera: yes, you do!
Pema Pera: what are you studying, if I may ask?
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: i finished my BS in medicine , GP now
Pema Pera: ah, you must be very busy then, I guess?
Pema Pera: making long days at work?
sophia Placebo: 9 and half hours a day
sophia Placebo: good thing i dont have oncalls
sophia Placebo: and i do have my weekends :)
Pema Pera: are you planning to specialize at some point?
sophia Placebo: iam.....not sure what yet
Pema Pera: medicine is a very interesting field, part science part psychology part engineering part other things -- it really transcends the usual categories
sophia Placebo: :) it is
sophia Placebo: but as much as it give as much as it takes
sophia Placebo: more and more and even more of time
sophia Placebo: too much demanding too
sophia Placebo: and these days it can easly make you fall in the greed
Pema Pera: Hi Bert
sophia Placebo: i hoped geo would tell some of the prayers he used to recite
Bertram Jacobus: hi sophia and pema :-)
sophia Placebo: hello bert :)
Pema Pera: next time you can ask him, Sophia!
sophia Placebo: i will
sophia Placebo: just for my courousity at least
Pema Pera: I'd love to hear about it too.
sophia Placebo: actually i wonder if not everyone has some sort of prayer
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: who is that, geo, please ? :-)
sophia Placebo: with or without god
Pema Pera: perhaps, in some way, like everybody having strong devotion to something . . . it may be expressed in different ways
sophia Placebo: Geo ,an ava bert
Pema Pera: Yesterday, Geo Netizen and Sophia had a theme session, on prayer in Islam and Christianity
sophia Placebo: a member of PAB

What is prayer ?

Bertram Jacobus: aren´t prayers "only" requests and thanksgivings ?
Pema Pera: perhaps you did not get the announcement, if your email account was not set up correctly -- I know you corrected it yesterday, so from now on you should get al annoucnements
Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. now i know - ty ! ... :-)
sophia Placebo: like : oh God we thank you for this bread please keep sending it everyday and bliss it and us bert ?
Bertram Jacobus: yes ! thats exactly what i meant sophia :-)
sophia Placebo: no
Bertram Jacobus: what else is it then, please ?
Bertram Jacobus: hello mickorod ... :-)
Pema Pera: Hi Mick!
sophia Placebo: hi mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi, Sorry I am late
sophia Placebo: hmm i dont know bert , for me it is no ,for you idk
Bertram Jacobus: what is it for you "more" sophia please ?
sophia Placebo: peace
sophia Placebo: tranquility
sophia Placebo: self honesty
Bertram Jacobus: ah yes . i see . ty !
sophia Placebo: see ,difrent from you
Mickorod Renard: I dont know what thats in reference to, but I am looking for much of that too Sophia
Bertram Jacobus: we talk about prayers mickorod ...
sophia Placebo: arent we all mick :)
Mickorod Renard: ;)
sophia Placebo: i was wondering if not everyone has some sort of prayer
sophia Placebo: with or without god

What to ask ? whome to sk for ?

Mickorod Renard: I struggle with prayers,,I only seem to be able to them for people I know who are sick or in need
sophia Placebo: :) no one for yourself ?
sophia Placebo: very generouse
Mickorod Renard: no, I only hope for myself, or try and sort my own out myself
sophia Placebo: hope is a prayer
Mickorod Renard: yes, i think it is
sophia Placebo: sort of
Mickorod Renard: but I hate asking for things myself
Mickorod Renard: maybe thats where I go wrong
sophia Placebo: feeling undeserve or unncessary things to ask for ?
Mickorod Renard: not sure, maybe I feel selfish asking for myself when I know others are in more need
sophia Placebo: :)
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: thats not your job to distibute things on poeple i guess , one would get his food weather asked for it or not
Mickorod Renard: well, I can only ask..grin
sophia Placebo: hehe
Mickorod Renard: but I think spiritualy I am in need as anyone else
Bertram Jacobus: or one wouldn´t get his food wheather asked for it or not ? ... :-/
sophia Placebo: true too
Bertram Jacobus: then - what shall we ask for ? is praying not asking also ?
sophia Placebo: asking for food sitting all day with no job
sophia Placebo: ask for stronger will , patience and insight
sophia Placebo: or ask for food
Bertram Jacobus: but when it doesn´t help with food ? sry, i seem not to understand ...
sophia Placebo: whatever matter for you most , there is no rule for such thing i guess
Mickorod Renard: food can be many things
sophia Placebo: “Du’a of four types of people is not answered: 1.      A Person who sits idle at home and prays to Allah to provide him with sustenance is told, ‘Have We not ordered you to make effort for obtaining your sustenance?’ 2.      The person who prays for some misfortune for his wife. He is told, ‘Have We not given you the choice of giving her divorce if you do not want such a wife?’ 3.      One who had squandered the money and spent it in evil ways. Now if he prays for sustenance, he is told, ‘Did We not order you to spend in moderation?’ 4.      One who gives a loan to someone but does not make anyone witness it. Hence if the borrower refuses and the creditor prays, he is informed, ‘Had We not ordered you to have witnesses?’”
Mickorod Renard: wanting peace and tranquility is a hunger
sophia Placebo: dua equal to prayer
Bertram Jacobus: may be i should read your discussion you already did ... but ty anyway sophia very much ...
Bertram Jacobus: and mick - for sure i understand what you said now ... ty too
sophia Placebo: you are very welcome :)

Repenting

Mickorod Renard: what if the person is one of those 4 types but is asking for forgivness?
Mickorod Renard: np
sophia Placebo: asking for forgiveness and not stopping the wrong deed he is asking to be forgived from
sophia Placebo: he would be included
sophia Placebo: in the four types
Mickorod Renard: yes,,he/she would neeed to have stoped, but they may have been guilty and no longer doing the wrongs
sophia Placebo: feeling guilty you mean ?
Mickorod Renard: well, in christianity , repenting and asking for forgivness is normal
Mickorod Renard: providing that they are seriously wanting to correct themselves
sophia Placebo: in islam it is ahigh rank
sophia Placebo: very beloved poeple
sophia Placebo: providing they truly on their words , no more of that deed
Mickorod Renard: thats good then..ty
sophia Placebo: wanting a good step but that rank is for succefulls
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: going in and out os sin and forgiveness is bad thing
Mickorod Renard: to become very pure of deed can be very dificult, but surely it is good to be trying and yet not be absolutely pure
sophia Placebo: repenting * , like saying i wont do that and i do repent and ask for forgivness, then go to sin then go to repnt then go to sin , eventually hislher heart would be like rock ,and blacken ,no more he/she can find the true path
sophia Placebo: true mick one cant be saint
sophia Placebo: in one night !
sophia Placebo: he might be saint eventually how should i know
Mickorod Renard: definately not in a night

Dropping hope

Pema Pera: Mick, if you like to pray, how about praying for yourself, for obstacles to real seeing to be dropped?
Pema Pera: not a prayer to get something extra, but rather to have something taken away?
Mickorod Renard: I would like to, but I find praying an obstacle
Mickorod Renard: theres no hope for me
Mickorod Renard: he he
sophia Placebo: :)
Pema Pera: it's great to drop hope, Mick :-)
Pema Pera: much easier to drop fear then too!
Mickorod Renard: I see what you mean Pema,,and I think I do subconciously let lil prayers like that slip out
Mickorod Renard: I think one hurdle is that I feel my deeds must be without personal reward,,and as such to ask for myeslf would feel like I ask for reward
Pema Pera: such a prayer may also be a way to remind yourself not to fight your perceived insufficiencies, but rather to just let them slip away, drop off, like ripe fruit
Pema Pera: as for selfishness: if you see more clearly you can help others more clearly
Pema Pera: if you don't, you're likely to hurt more than help . . . the road to hell is paved with good intentions
Pema Pera: so praying to see more clearly may be the fastest way to help others, really!
Mickorod Renard: yes, I think they are very wise words Pema
sophia Placebo nods
Pema Pera: it took me a few decades to learn that, Mick, the hard way :-)
Mickorod Renard: I think I am a fledgling plant trying to grow but suppressed by an overgrowth of weeds
Mickorod Renard: I am running out of decades Pema
Pema Pera: so ask in your prayer for all the weeds to disappear overnight, why not?
Pema Pera: can always ask :)
Pema Pera: what do you think, may that be possible?
Pema Pera: or do you think God/Universe/Being is too weak or flaky to do that?
Mickorod Renard: that sounds a good start Pema,,thankyou to you all for lifting my spirits on this
Pema Pera: you're very welcome Mick!
Pema Pera: well, I should be going . . . .
Pema Pera: thanks for yet another great conversation!
sophia Placebo: bye pema
Mickorod Renard: thanks Pema,,bye
Pema Pera: bye Sophia, Mick, Bert!
Bertram Jacobus: have a nice day pema
Mickorod Renard: ;) that was nice,, considering I was so late too
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
sophia Placebo: :)
Mickorod Renard: well, I guess I had best be back to sortin everyones problems out..aghhhhhhh
sophia Placebo: hehe have fun !
Mickorod Renard: thankyou for the chat,,bye
Bertram Jacobus: bye mick :-)
sophia Placebo: let them sort yours for a change
Mickorod Renard: if only
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: :)
Mickorod Renard: if they sorted their own mine would be done
sophia Placebo: im going too , see you later Bert !
Bertram Jacobus: bye sophia - have a good time