2009.08.08 07:00 - To Pray : To ask, to thank, to drop and to hope

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    The Guardian for this meeting was sophia Placebo. The comments are by sophia Placebo.

    sophia Placebo: hello
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    Pema Pera: Thank you again for a wonderful conversation yesterday.
    sophia Placebo: My morning session ! you are very welcome , sorry for being extremely late , but i took a nap un intentionally :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: we arrived at exactly the same time too, good timing!
    Pema Pera: I'm in California now, so my local time is SL time, very convenient
    sophia Placebo: hehe yes
    Pema Pera: just had an early breakfast
    sophia Placebo: sometimes i dont know anymore what time is what
    sophia Placebo: i had to read some notes like for 5 times
    Pema Pera: yes, it can be very confusing, especially when people say "today" or "tomorrow" in email . . . different for different time zones
    sophia Placebo: true

    Devotion from scratch :

    Pema Pera: Yesterday, I had no idea what to expect, with a theme session on prayer -- it was fascinating to see Geo very quickly connecting prayer with love
    sophia Placebo: it hard not to :)
    Pema Pera: that's true
    Pema Pera: devotion is such a central topic . . . but not a very popular topic to talk about these days
    sophia Placebo nods
    Pema Pera: yet everybody is devoted to all kind of things: work, family, money, whatever
    Pema Pera: they just don't call it "devotion"
    Pema Pera: so there are two ways to point out how to learn true devotion: either to start from scratch, which is the hard way; or to notion all the devotion you already bring in, and change the direction a bit
    Pema Pera: the first way is like getting a ship to move
    Pema Pera: the second way is like changing the rudder, much easier :)
    Pema Pera: *to note
    sophia Placebo: i like the first
    sophia Placebo: i guess that how i do my homeworks at school :)
    Pema Pera: in what way?
    Pema Pera: starting from scratch?
    sophia Placebo: from scratch
    Pema Pera: can you give an example?
    sophia Placebo: at least that what my teacher kept telling me , you always use the hard way to solve things
    sophia Placebo: hmm ,like if the home work is what is pab?
    Pema Pera: yes?
    sophia Placebo: three letters
    sophia Placebo: then build up untill you reach what ever you reach
    sophia Placebo: it is a sim , a place where ava gathers 4 times a day .... like this
    sophia Placebo: second way is like copying what was written in the wiki plus something i add
    sophia Placebo: i dont know if im making sense
    Pema Pera: yes, you do!
    Pema Pera: what are you studying, if I may ask?
    sophia Placebo: i finished my BS in medicine , GP now
    Pema Pera: ah, you must be very busy then, I guess?
    Pema Pera: making long days at work?
    sophia Placebo: 9 and half hours a day
    sophia Placebo: good thing i dont have oncalls
    sophia Placebo: and i do have my weekends :)
    Pema Pera: are you planning to specialize at some point?
    sophia Placebo: iam.....not sure what yet
    Pema Pera: medicine is a very interesting field, part science part psychology part engineering part other things -- it really transcends the usual categories
    sophia Placebo: :) it is
    sophia Placebo: but as much as it give as much as it takes
    sophia Placebo: more and more and even more of time
    sophia Placebo: too much demanding too
    sophia Placebo: and these days it can easly make you fall in the greed
    Pema Pera: Hi Bert
    sophia Placebo: i hoped geo would tell some of the prayers he used to recite
    Bertram Jacobus: hi sophia and pema :-)
    sophia Placebo: hello bert :)
    Pema Pera: next time you can ask him, Sophia!
    sophia Placebo: i will
    sophia Placebo: just for my courousity at least
    Pema Pera: I'd love to hear about it too.
    sophia Placebo: actually i wonder if not everyone has some sort of prayer
    Bertram Jacobus: who is that, geo, please ? :-)
    sophia Placebo: with or without god
    Pema Pera: perhaps, in some way, like everybody having strong devotion to something . . . it may be expressed in different ways
    sophia Placebo: Geo ,an ava bert
    Pema Pera: Yesterday, Geo Netizen and Sophia had a theme session, on prayer in Islam and Christianity
    sophia Placebo: a member of PAB

    What is prayer ?

    Bertram Jacobus: aren´t prayers "only" requests and thanksgivings ?
    Pema Pera: perhaps you did not get the announcement, if your email account was not set up correctly -- I know you corrected it yesterday, so from now on you should get al annoucnements
    Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. now i know - ty ! ... :-)
    sophia Placebo: like : oh God we thank you for this bread please keep sending it everyday and bliss it and us bert ?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! thats exactly what i meant sophia :-)
    sophia Placebo: no
    Bertram Jacobus: what else is it then, please ?
    Bertram Jacobus: hello mickorod ... :-)
    Pema Pera: Hi Mick!
    sophia Placebo: hi mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi, Sorry I am late
    sophia Placebo: hmm i dont know bert , for me it is no ,for you idk
    Bertram Jacobus: what is it for you "more" sophia please ?
    sophia Placebo: peace
    sophia Placebo: tranquility
    sophia Placebo: self honesty
    Bertram Jacobus: ah yes . i see . ty !
    sophia Placebo: see ,difrent from you
    Mickorod Renard: I dont know what thats in reference to, but I am looking for much of that too Sophia
    Bertram Jacobus: we talk about prayers mickorod ...
    sophia Placebo: arent we all mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    sophia Placebo: i was wondering if not everyone has some sort of prayer
    sophia Placebo: with or without god

    What to ask ? whome to sk for ?

    Mickorod Renard: I struggle with prayers,,I only seem to be able to them for people I know who are sick or in need
    sophia Placebo: :) no one for yourself ?
    sophia Placebo: very generouse
    Mickorod Renard: no, I only hope for myself, or try and sort my own out myself
    sophia Placebo: hope is a prayer
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i think it is
    sophia Placebo: sort of
    Mickorod Renard: but I hate asking for things myself
    Mickorod Renard: maybe thats where I go wrong
    sophia Placebo: feeling undeserve or unncessary things to ask for ?
    Mickorod Renard: not sure, maybe I feel selfish asking for myself when I know others are in more need
    sophia Placebo: :)
    sophia Placebo: thats not your job to distibute things on poeple i guess , one would get his food weather asked for it or not
    Mickorod Renard: well, I can only ask..grin
    sophia Placebo: hehe
    Mickorod Renard: but I think spiritualy I am in need as anyone else
    Bertram Jacobus: or one wouldn´t get his food wheather asked for it or not ? ... :-/
    sophia Placebo: true too
    Bertram Jacobus: then - what shall we ask for ? is praying not asking also ?
    sophia Placebo: asking for food sitting all day with no job
    sophia Placebo: ask for stronger will , patience and insight
    sophia Placebo: or ask for food
    Bertram Jacobus: but when it doesn´t help with food ? sry, i seem not to understand ...
    sophia Placebo: whatever matter for you most , there is no rule for such thing i guess
    Mickorod Renard: food can be many things
    sophia Placebo: “Du’a of four types of people is not answered: 1.      A Person who sits idle at home and prays to Allah to provide him with sustenance is told, ‘Have We not ordered you to make effort for obtaining your sustenance?’ 2.      The person who prays for some misfortune for his wife. He is told, ‘Have We not given you the choice of giving her divorce if you do not want such a wife?’ 3.      One who had squandered the money and spent it in evil ways. Now if he prays for sustenance, he is told, ‘Did We not order you to spend in moderation?’ 4.      One who gives a loan to someone but does not make anyone witness it. Hence if the borrower refuses and the creditor prays, he is informed, ‘Had We not ordered you to have witnesses?’”
    Mickorod Renard: wanting peace and tranquility is a hunger
    sophia Placebo: dua equal to prayer
    Bertram Jacobus: may be i should read your discussion you already did ... but ty anyway sophia very much ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and mick - for sure i understand what you said now ... ty too
    sophia Placebo: you are very welcome :)


    Mickorod Renard: what if the person is one of those 4 types but is asking for forgivness?
    Mickorod Renard: np
    sophia Placebo: asking for forgiveness and not stopping the wrong deed he is asking to be forgived from
    sophia Placebo: he would be included
    sophia Placebo: in the four types
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,he/she would neeed to have stoped, but they may have been guilty and no longer doing the wrongs
    sophia Placebo: feeling guilty you mean ?
    Mickorod Renard: well, in christianity , repenting and asking for forgivness is normal
    Mickorod Renard: providing that they are seriously wanting to correct themselves
    sophia Placebo: in islam it is ahigh rank
    sophia Placebo: very beloved poeple
    sophia Placebo: providing they truly on their words , no more of that deed
    Mickorod Renard: thats good then..ty
    sophia Placebo: wanting a good step but that rank is for succefulls
    sophia Placebo: going in and out os sin and forgiveness is bad thing
    Mickorod Renard: to become very pure of deed can be very dificult, but surely it is good to be trying and yet not be absolutely pure
    sophia Placebo: repenting * , like saying i wont do that and i do repent and ask for forgivness, then go to sin then go to repnt then go to sin , eventually hislher heart would be like rock ,and blacken ,no more he/she can find the true path
    sophia Placebo: true mick one cant be saint
    sophia Placebo: in one night !
    sophia Placebo: he might be saint eventually how should i know
    Mickorod Renard: definately not in a night

    Dropping hope

    Pema Pera: Mick, if you like to pray, how about praying for yourself, for obstacles to real seeing to be dropped?
    Pema Pera: not a prayer to get something extra, but rather to have something taken away?
    Mickorod Renard: I would like to, but I find praying an obstacle
    Mickorod Renard: theres no hope for me
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Pema Pera: it's great to drop hope, Mick :-)
    Pema Pera: much easier to drop fear then too!
    Mickorod Renard: I see what you mean Pema,,and I think I do subconciously let lil prayers like that slip out
    Mickorod Renard: I think one hurdle is that I feel my deeds must be without personal reward,,and as such to ask for myeslf would feel like I ask for reward
    Pema Pera: such a prayer may also be a way to remind yourself not to fight your perceived insufficiencies, but rather to just let them slip away, drop off, like ripe fruit
    Pema Pera: as for selfishness: if you see more clearly you can help others more clearly
    Pema Pera: if you don't, you're likely to hurt more than help . . . the road to hell is paved with good intentions
    Pema Pera: so praying to see more clearly may be the fastest way to help others, really!
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I think they are very wise words Pema
    sophia Placebo nods
    Pema Pera: it took me a few decades to learn that, Mick, the hard way :-)
    Mickorod Renard: I think I am a fledgling plant trying to grow but suppressed by an overgrowth of weeds
    Mickorod Renard: I am running out of decades Pema
    Pema Pera: so ask in your prayer for all the weeds to disappear overnight, why not?
    Pema Pera: can always ask :)
    Pema Pera: what do you think, may that be possible?
    Pema Pera: or do you think God/Universe/Being is too weak or flaky to do that?
    Mickorod Renard: that sounds a good start Pema,,thankyou to you all for lifting my spirits on this
    Pema Pera: you're very welcome Mick!
    Pema Pera: well, I should be going . . . .
    Pema Pera: thanks for yet another great conversation!
    sophia Placebo: bye pema
    Mickorod Renard: thanks Pema,,bye
    Pema Pera: bye Sophia, Mick, Bert!
    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice day pema
    Mickorod Renard: ;) that was nice,, considering I was so late too
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Mickorod Renard: well, I guess I had best be back to sortin everyones problems out..aghhhhhhh
    sophia Placebo: hehe have fun !
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou for the chat,,bye
    Bertram Jacobus: bye mick :-)
    sophia Placebo: let them sort yours for a change
    Mickorod Renard: if only
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Mickorod Renard: if they sorted their own mine would be done
    sophia Placebo: im going too , see you later Bert !
    Bertram Jacobus: bye sophia - have a good time
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    Originally written on 18:17, 09 Aug 2009
    A student asked Mullah Nasrudin "Teach me to pray."<br /><br />"Impossible!" he replied, "you are already constantly at prayer."<br /><br />"How strange," the student said, "because I find myself unable to pray to Allah for the last few weeks."<br /><br />"Oh, but that's different!" said the Mullah. "You asked me to teach you to pray, but you didn't mention God. The prayers I meant and which you constantly repeat, are addressed to the world around you, because of your overwhelming concern for what others might think of you. You are also continually praying to the idol Money, which occupies all your thoughts. And furthermore, you are always praying for that great illusion: a secure and comfortable life. When your head is filled with so many gods and prayers, how could there be room for Allah?"
    Posted 10:23, 9 Apr 2010
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