2009.08.13 13:00 - Welcome and prayer

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

I have been away for three weeks, shedding most of my worldly goods and shipping the rest, vacating my home in Scotland, scattering my parents' ashes in an England lake, making a life-changing spiritual transition through the kindness of my teacher, emigrating to the United States, and getting married to the Love of my Life.

I am most grateful to those guardians who have very kindly stepped in to cover for my absence, both planned and last minute: Scathach and Pila, Eliza ("Ah, wait. It is Storm today. He's in life transition. Ill grab it."), and sophia. Thank you so much!

sophia Placebo: Hello
Storm Nordwind: Hello sophia
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: how are you ?
Storm Nordwind: I'm fine thank you sophia. Recovering from a cold and acclimatizing to high altitude, but otherwise very good.

I am living in what is known as "Mile High City". And I'm also getting used to this being a 2pm slot for me, local time, instead of 9pm.

sophia Placebo: and congrats for the recent wedding ^^
Storm Nordwind: You are very kind. Thank you so much!

A crowd suddenly materializes!

sophia Placebo: hi bert
sophia Placebo: hi wol
sophia Placebo: hi corv
sophia Placebo: hi fox
Wol Euler: hello storm!
Storm Nordwind: Whoa...! Hi everyone - what a lot of people! :)
sophia Placebo: yeah all of a sudden
Wol Euler: hello sophia, bertram, corvi, fox
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Sophia, Storm, Bertram, Fox.
Wol Euler: well, we saw you loggin in :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Congratulations, Storm.
Storm Nordwind: Thank you! :))
Bertram Jacobus: hi. hy and hey again :o)
Storm Nordwind: I apologise for congested typing - I'm recovering from a cold... at high altitude!
Wol Euler: eeep
Wol Euler: how are you finding the altitude? is it as stressful as they say?
Storm Nordwind: Oh it's fine. It's not new. Just everything all at once is new!
Storm Nordwind: It's only 1600m+ so it's not too bad, but yes you get tired for a few weeks
Bertram Jacobus: where is that if i may ask storm ?
Storm Nordwind: I've just moved to Denver, Colorado
Storm Nordwind: Hi Gaya
sophia Placebo: hello gaya
Corvuscorva Nightfire: cute, Gaya!
Bertram Jacobus: i see. and that is 1600 m high ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
Wol Euler: hello gaya
Bertram Jacobus: hi gaya ... :-)
Fox Monacular: hi Gaya
Storm Nordwind: Yes Bert, or 5200ft if you prefer
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Thank you Gaya
sophia Placebo: cute sheep
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Storm Nordwind hides the apple sauce
Bertram Jacobus: no. i prefere 1600 - but ty. it´s a help for convert ... :-)
Wol Euler: and the mint ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Apple sauce is for pork no? heheheh
Storm Nordwind: oh yes - wrong meat

What a glorious welcome back! Thank you all! :) But it hasn't finished yet. The ritual must sortly continue... after I've started to find out what's been happening here of late.

Storm Nordwind: So what news in PaB-land? What have I missed in the last few weeks?
Wol Euler: we had two sessions back-to-back last weekend on watching thoughts arising
Wol Euler: seeing the process of arrival, as it were
Storm Nordwind: Wow!
Wol Euler: yeah, it was really interesting to do.
Storm Nordwind: That's a good discipline, especially if you can welcome them and let them go without following

But first there are more games... :)

Gaya Ethaniel notices wrong gaps ... and move next to Corvi ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Wol Euler: well done, gaya! thank you :)
Wol Euler: there were a lot of symmetry games too, storm :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Which I tend to mess up :)
Bertram Jacobus: now only men and women are not yet in symmetrie lol ... ;o)
Storm Nordwind sighs and smiles :)
Wol Euler cams up and takes a snapsot
Bertram Jacobus: what does you sigh mean storm ? :-)
Storm Nordwind: Haha Bert! It just means that sometimes people want to play games, I don't always have the energy to follow :) (Though sometimes I start them!)
Wol Euler: :)
Bertram Jacobus: i seee . ty ...
Wol Euler: for instance, that wonderful and now traditional PaB game called ...
Wol Euler: onigokko
Wol Euler: oh boo.
Wol Euler: stop
Bertram Jacobus: lol :o)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: aww
sophia Placebo: :))
Gaya Ethaniel: onigokko
Wol Euler: c'mon, put them on. We must welcome Storm back in proper style.
Gaya Ethaniel: stop
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ready!
Wol Euler: fox, do you have an Onigokko?
Bertram Jacobus: fabulous ! :-)
Wol Euler: Bertram, I think I gave you once...
Storm Nordwind: ready
Fox Monacular: do, what is this?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fox Monacular: I want one too!
Wol Euler: ok, I'll give you that, just a mo
Wol Euler: stop
Fox Monacular: thanks, what do I do with it?
Wol Euler: if you wear it (invisible)
Bertram Jacobus: onigokko
Wol Euler: it attaches to your eyeball, and is inert and harmless until somebody says the magic word
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: onigokko
Wol Euler: got it on?
Fox Monacular: hahahahaahah
Wol Euler laughs
sophia Placebo: haha
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bertram Jacobus: lool . ty :o)
Bertram Jacobus: stop
Wol Euler: stop
sophia Placebo: :)
Storm Nordwind: Wow - I feel back at home now!!!
Bertram Jacobus: stooop
Wol Euler smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bertram Jacobus: stop stop stop ! lol
Fox Monacular: wow, i'll do it all the time now
Wol Euler: you two may need to use the "stop all animations" command in the World menu to fix yourself
Wol Euler: then sttand and sit again
Wol Euler: 'cause it does stop ALL anims :)
Bertram Jacobus: wonderful item ! ... ty wol :-)
Wol Euler flicks Gaya's tail and giggles
Gaya Ethaniel: :P
Storm Nordwind: That was a lovely welcome. Just like old times! :)
Wol Euler: yw, bertram, it provies hours of harmless fun :)
Bertram Jacobus: astonishing, that such things exist : harmless funs - how nice ! :-)
Wol Euler: yeah, RL needs more better anims :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Gaya Ethaniel: :)

I'm at home with old friends. The welcome ritual is complete and everyone is happy. We settle down to talk of recent highlights.

Storm Nordwind: So we've had symmetry games and watching thoughts arise... any other new themed sessions, or interesting existing ones?
Wol Euler nudges Sophia and smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: The one on prayer?
Bertram Jacobus: hi mick ! ... :-)
Wol Euler: hello Mick
Storm Nordwind: Hi Mick
Fox Monacular: hi Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
sophia Placebo: hi mick
Mickorod Renard: yea..hiya
Storm Nordwind: Tell me about the one on prayer please Gaya
Mickorod Renard: yea..its storm
sophia Placebo: i was translating nudge
Gaya Ethaniel nudges sophia :P
Wol Euler: oh, sorry :)
sophia Placebo: lol
Storm Nordwind: nudge = something you do to a slot machine ;)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Arabella!
Bertram Jacobus: hi arabella ... :-)
Wol Euler: or a way of saying "your turn" :)
sophia Placebo: hi ara
Wol Euler: hello ara
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Mick!
Fox Monacular: hi Arabella
Mickorod Renard: hi Ara
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella :)
arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
Storm Nordwind: Hi arabella!
arabella Ella: great to be back!
sophia Placebo: ok ty
sophia Placebo: *:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
arabella Ella: how lovely thetune ... thanks
Gaya Ethaniel likes the tune very much.
Storm Nordwind likes the sentiment very much!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bertram Jacobus: (sorry : just have to use my virtual legs for some moments - please don´t feel disturbed)

sophia begins to tell me of the recent themed session on prayer.

sophia Placebo: there was this themed session about prayer with Geo me and Pema
Storm Nordwind: Sounds interesting. Did you have a common understanding of the meaning of the word 'prayer'?
sophia Placebo: i guess ,hmm talking freely about yourself , your weakness and douts , your faults
sophia Placebo: your hopes and such
sophia Placebo: kind of intimate whisper if i may use the word intimate
Mickorod Renard: maybe prayer opens up something inside,,an honesty just for a fleeting few mins
Wol Euler: it seems appropriate

There's a short interlude for comings and goings.

sophia Placebo: hello yak
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Bertram Jacobus: hi yaku ... :-)
Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
Fox Monacular: hi yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: congratulations storm
arabella Ella: Hiya Yak
Mickorod Renard: hi Yaku
Storm Nordwind: Greeting Yakuzza
Storm Nordwind: Thank you Yak!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
arabella Ella: oh yes Storm I hear congratulations are in order ... excuse me for not congratulating you before but i was on vacation this past week :)
Storm Nordwind smiles and blushes
Storm Nordwind: That's quite all right ara :)
sophia Placebo: yes mick defintly an honesty
arabella Ella: but its surprising how news travels even when one does not have internet access :)
Storm Nordwind raises an eyebrow!
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: mick owns up to telling Ara
Storm Nordwind: hehe
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Goodbye my freinds...
arabella Ella: Mick I was gonna say it was on the front pages of all Spanish newspapers
Corvuscorva Nightfire: time for me to go.
Wol Euler: bye corvi, take care.
Wol Euler: enjoy the day.
sophia Placebo: bye corvi
Gaya Ethaniel: See you Corvi :) Enjoy your day.
Mickorod Renard: bye Corvi
arabella Ella: bye corvi
Fox Monacular: bye Corvi
Storm Nordwind: Bye Corvi - thanks for dropping by
--BELL--

The conversation returns to prayer and possibly similar practices, and arabella starts a discussion.

arabella Ella: may i ask two things about prayer ... generally to all here
Gaya Ethaniel listens.
Storm Nordwind: Please do ara
Wol Euler: sure
arabella Ella: first of all ... is there something common to prayer (or similar) which both people of faith and people of no faith pursue? and why?
arabella Ella: and secondly
arabella Ella: it is said that there is power in prayer which involves masses of people thinking in the same direction
arabella Ella: and that such mass thinking can have effects ... what do you think?
Storm Nordwind: What great questions! :)
arabella Ella would love to hear Storm's comments too ...
Storm Nordwind: Who would like to have a go first? :)
Mickorod Renard: well volunteered storm
arabella Ella: :)
Storm Nordwind: Hum!
Gaya Ethaniel: One of a well-known Korean Buddhist monk often asked people to perform prostrations as a prayer especially for others. People who came to see him in person understood the request so guess it can be a common practice perhaps in certain cases.
Storm Nordwind: OK well firstly, I suspect it depends on a definition of prayer. If you mean focus thought - like a laser beam - that's one thing. If you mean an intimate conversation with some being then I think that's another
arabella Ella: could we perhaps focus on the first definition to incorporate everyone, both those of faith and those of no faith?
Gaya Ethaniel: True ... depends on definition. I meant 'wishing well'.
arabella Ella: as i feel the second is incorporated in the first definition IMHO
sophia Placebo: a conversation about laser beam thought
Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure that would work ara, because personal intimate prayer can often lack focus
Mickorod Renard: would one think that prayer involves humbling oneself to open an innermost feeling
arabella Ella: altho personal intimate prayer is also a means of self reflection and reflection on others
arabella Ella: besides of course incorporating repetive chant like phrases
Mickorod Renard: I think its pointless during prayer to lie to ones self
Storm Nordwind: Self-honesty is very hard for many people Mick. It's so much easier to be honest with other people!
arabella Ella: i personally dont think self honesty could ever be objective ... however much effort one makes
arabella Ella: it is one perspective amongst others
Storm Nordwind: Good point ara. You would have to be able to see things as they really are.
Bertram Jacobus: i think the common aspects in prayers for faithful people as well for not faithful ones are thankssayings and wishes ...
arabella Ella: which is impossible Storm ... to see things as they really are ... again IMHO
Storm Nordwind smiles

Now THAT is a whole other discussion!! I'm not going to comment further here; it would be unfair in a commentary. Though I will mention that my occasional blog, "Words of a Seer", has the subtitle "Seer: someone who sees reality as it really is".

Mickorod Renard: good point Bert
arabella Ella: but Bert ... those who have been raised as I have been ...
arabella Ella: have also experienced prayer as rote repetition
arabella Ella: not always necessarily with thanks or wishes
Mickorod Renard: afk for a min..scuse me
Storm Nordwind: ara - why do people pray in those cases?
arabella Ella: habit? conditioning? culture?
Bertram Jacobus: that was not what i meant ara - it was thought as thought regarding to your question what is common for the two groups of people ...
arabella Ella: an ingrained way of being part of a 'religion'
arabella Ella: oh i see Bert
arabella Ella: ty for clarification
arabella Ella: that too is part of what prayer involves ... or mass thinking
Bertram Jacobus: ty too for your wonderful questions
arabella Ella: :)
--BELL--

I take arabella's point about "mass thinking" and develop it in a slightly different direction.

Storm Nordwind: Mass thinking and mass feeling seems to me to have great effect, but often on masses of people rather than on inanimate objects or other life-forms. It is certainly something I have felt on several occasions.
arabella Ella: concerning that which is common ... some people of no faith ... some perhaps present here today too ... practice meditation ... which could be considered as part of what i am referring to
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't quite understand that sentence ... Storm could you explain or give us an example please?
Fox Monacular: RL calls, have a good day everyone!
Wol Euler: bye fox, take care
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Fox :)
Bertram Jacobus: bye fox you too
Mickorod Renard: bac
Gaya Ethaniel: wb :)
arabella Ella: Storm ... do you think mass thinking and mass feeling could have a tangible visible positive effect ... say like healing for example?
Mickorod Renard: bye fox
sophia Placebo: some pray just to show others that they pray whatever is their reason behind that, some do pray or still attaching themselves to tradition cause they are still not sure to leave or to stay, some uncomfortable feelings arise and they want to ascertain them, some do pray cause the enviroment of prayer had been co existing with some good feelings in the past and they like to keep remmbering
Storm Nordwind: Gaya - an example would be August 31 1997, when there was a tangible wave of emotion that gripped the whole of the UK
Storm Nordwind: That was the death of Pricess Diana
Wol Euler nods.
arabella Ella: not only the UK I guess Storm
Gaya Ethaniel wasn't gripped ... I was surprised to see so many people grieving for her most of whom bought papers that employed the photographers and criticised her continously before ...
Wol Euler: true :)
Storm Nordwind: Indeed Gaya, but the air was thick with the emotion, and it substantially affected people's behaviour
Mickorod Renard: I have to admit to being touched by everyones grief over her death
Storm Nordwind: And that's the point Mick... you were perhaps touched by people's grief, rather than by your own grief
Wol Euler: ooh, good point.
Mickorod Renard: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: English people don't show emotions publicly like that ... true.
Wol Euler: contagious emotions
Mickorod Renard: but I am sensitive to others grief
Storm Nordwind: Me too. I fully understand
arabella Ella: and Storm do you see that as linked to mass feeling?
Gaya Ethaniel: People realise almost always afterwards ... too late.
Storm Nordwind: Not so much that arabella as more like Wol described as contagious feeling
Mickorod Renard: hi Nymf
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Nymf :)
sophia Placebo: hi nymf
Nymf Hathaway: Good day everyone :)
arabella Ella: hiyaNymf
Wol Euler: hello nymf
Storm Nordwind: Welcome Nymf
arabella Ella: so in this case ... the feeling has to be known to be effective ... what if it were not known ... could it then be effective somehow too?

Bertram picks up on another point of arabella's, one which she illustrates with a reference to a stone circle. Having just visited one of the oldest stone circles in the real, just prior to my emigrating, I make a comment.

Bertram Jacobus: ara ? may i ask ? what did you mean before with that meditators, non faithful people (you know the statement i mean?) -
arabella Ella: i will give you an example Bert
Bertram Jacobus: hi nymf ... :-)
arabella Ella: here on SL there is a group
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi nymf
arabella Ella: who meet at a stone circle on SL every last Tuesday of the month
arabella Ella: and meditate
arabella Ella: and as far as i am aware
arabella Ella: they are non believers
arabella Ella: or most of them are
Bertram Jacobus: ah !
arabella Ella: i am not judinging so dont get me wrong
Bertram Jacobus: no no
Mickorod Renard: do they not believe in something else?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
arabella Ella: but what they do is similar to a religious ceremony
arabella Ella: they actually believe strongly in the rights of 'native' people
Mickorod Renard: perhaps thier religion is to the earth and the sun?
Bertram Jacobus: oh i see - and then ? any questions refering to that or conclusions ? or even results ? :-)
arabella Ella: could be ... i am not sure
arabella Ella: i dont know enough about what they do to say much more Bert
arabella Ella: all i know is that most if not all claim to be atheists
Storm Nordwind remembers visiting a 5000 year old stone circle in RL just before traveling to the US
arabella Ella: (again no judgements)
Gaya Ethaniel: Good day/night everyone :)
arabella Ella: we have some stone circles here in Malta too Storm
Mickorod Renard: I love visiting stone circles
sophia Placebo: night gaya
arabella Ella: may I ask which you visited?
Nymf Hathaway: Good night Gaya :)
Storm Nordwind waves to Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Congratulations again Storm :)
Bertram Jacobus: but ... in relation to the topic now - where is the link ? i´m a bit slow in understanding at the moment may be sry
Wol Euler wonders whether atheism isn't itself an orthodoxy
arabella Ella: nite Gaya
Mickorod Renard: nite Gaya
Wol Euler: goodnight gaya
Storm Nordwind: Castlerigg ara
arabella Ella: in Scotland?
Storm Nordwind: Cumbria

At 5200 years old, Castlerigg is one of the earliest stone circles in Britain, and possibly Europe too. No one knows for sure which is the oldest. Meanwhile the discussion continues apace and we are all deeply lost in it!

Mickorod Renard: I'm an Arbor Low man myself
Bertram Jacobus: good night gaya
arabella Ella: interesting
Storm Nordwind: Very nice Mick. Wonderful site
arabella Ella feels the energy each time i visit a stone circle
Bertram Jacobus: ah - it´s the question, wheather non faithful people when they meditate, do the same like people with faith ara ?
arabella Ella: yes Bert ... are they similar acts?
arabella Ella: or could they be perceived as similar?
Mickorod Renard: what is fundemental to me is that I feel the energy of life itself,,and I feel so grateful for it,,especially when at that site
arabella Ella: and are there tangible effects?
Bertram Jacobus: interesting ... and i woud spontaneous say : can be. ;-)
Storm Nordwind nods to Mick
arabella Ella: even when the acts are not known to those who are effected
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
arabella Ella: nite Yak
sophia Placebo: night yak
Wol Euler: 'night yakuzza, take care
Mickorod Renard: nite Yak
Nymf Hathaway: Good night Yakuzza
Storm Nordwind: Goodnight Yakuzza
Mickorod Renard: Fef was elusive
Nymf Hathaway: :)
Storm Nordwind: Like a transient thought
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: an Appearance!
Wol Euler: or perhaps just an Arising.
Bertram Jacobus: first : i liked the comment storm gave : that such effects are quite obviously on masses - when they are known . second : i think and feel sometimes for example when a bad or a good athmosphere seems to be somewhere. but that still should be researched i guess to get sure results ara.
arabella Ella: well one thing comes to mind
arabella Ella: there are ancient sites in various parts of the world
arabella Ella: with similarities even tho people had no means to communicate
arabella Ella: and it is a mystery how this came about
Mickorod Renard: it sure is Ara, I wonder this too,,,but I believe that people in general do find the need to want to belong,,belong to a bigger thing
Mickorod Renard: something unifying,,and maybe its all part of that
arabella Ella: but Mick we must not forget that many people in the western world today reject that thought
Mickorod Renard: perhaps as a spieces we are linked but have lost identifying what it is
Wol Euler: or perhaps we displace that onto politics or environmental activism ...
Mickorod Renard: I am not sure they reject the notion,,just want to show they are independant
Mickorod Renard: that must be onother medium for belonging too Wol
arabella Ella: i think we must remember as Wol said that there are other dominating forces today that control the lives and thoughts of many people
arabella Ella: materialism for one
arabella Ella: media another
arabella Ella: science too
Mickorod Renard: but ur missing the spiritual need
sophia Placebo: they are covering the thought like a farmer covering the seed , nevertheless , the seed grows
Bertram Jacobus: but spirituality is not seldom nowadays too
arabella Ella: but Mick I think people can be spiritual even without religious faith

I have been caught up in this wonderful discussion and not noticed that the start time for an important workshop passed several minutes ago. Bad guardian - no biscuit for you!

Storm Nordwind: Oh... by the way... does anyone want to be in the Cafe for WoK? :-O
Mickorod Renard: lol,,yes
Mickorod Renard: is stim doing it?
Storm Nordwind: I am completely thrown by the change of timezone
Wol Euler: heheheh
Storm Nordwind: Yes he's there with 6 others
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Hades Nostram: Hi all
Mickorod Renard: ok,,on my way to wok
arabella Ella: Hiya Hade
arabella Ella: Hades
sophia Placebo: hi hades
Mickorod Renard: hi Hades
Nymf Hathaway: No needs to get into her bed :( sorry I wasn't much of a talker :( have fun everyone, till later
Bertram Jacobus: hi hades ... :-)
Wol Euler: hello hades, nice av :)
arabella Ella: bye Nymf
Wol Euler: I too must get to bed, goodnight all.
sophia Placebo: bye nymf
arabella Ella: nite Wol
Storm Nordwind: Goodnight Wol
Bertram Jacobus: bye nymf and wol
Nymf Hathaway: Bye bye everyone :)
Hades Nostram: Thanks... note* Harmles 4us!
sophia Placebo: night wol
arabella Ella: i am off to Kira hope to c some of you there :)
Hades Nostram: Bye!
Storm Nordwind: Bye ara
arabella Ella: and congrats again Storm :)
Bertram Jacobus: bye ara
Storm Nordwind: You seem to have joined us right at the close of the session Hades
sophia Placebo: see you later , bye
Storm Nordwind: Bye sophia
Hades Nostram: I noticed :) to late..
Bertram Jacobus: bye sophia ...
Hades Nostram: Next time i will attend on time :)
Storm Nordwind: Still there will be another session in 5 hours
Hades Nostram: Bye Sophia
Hades Nostram: Ok,..then i am in dreamland
Storm Nordwind: Where in the world are you?
Bertram Jacobus: aren´t we already ? ;-)
Storm Nordwind smiles at Bert
Hades Nostram: Netherlands,EU
Storm Nordwind: Ah yes
Hades Nostram: :) it is a sort of dreamland...i agree
Storm Nordwind: You need 10/4/10/4 am/pm Hades
Hades Nostram: Ok..thanks for noticing
Storm Nordwind smiles "You're welcome"
Storm Nordwind: Please excuse me too
Hades Nostram: Thank you!
Hades Nostram: Have fun ..and see you later
Bertram Jacobus: sure. have a good time storm and ty
Hades Nostram: Bye :)
Storm Nordwind: Goodbye for now
Hades Nostram: :)