2009.08.18 13:00 - Spellbound Spirit

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. 


    The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

    Expecting a quiet session I was suprised by the turnout

    Bertram Jacobus: i doubt about my english skills
    Mickorod Renard: Bertram,,I have never noticed that your english is not good
    Bertram Jacobus: here first i understood the meetings at 1 pm had been silently in the last week, now i understand they were busy ... (?)
    Eliza Madrigal: I will miss it once school starts. Then the weekends will be my only 1PM.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,same here
    Isadora Davidov: Wiil you teach or study?
    Eliza Madrigal: I will drive my children here there and everywhere like a good American mom. hahah
    Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
    Isadora Davidov: excellent; they are fortunate...
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Yes, me too. Though, I did prefer it when I was able to tutor and such... we'll see.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :)
    Isadora Davidov: well of course not too old, but I now am amzed that I can go back to something I'd read before and NO MEmory Whatsoever of having read the material
    Bertram Jacobus: that is famous that good american moms are like that, even in europe (!) ... ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Isadora... I know those details are in there somewhere but on the spot I often can't find them. haha
    Isadora Davidov: I am no longer sure the details are even in there
    Eliza Madrigal: we've been spoiled by google too perhaps :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he , yes Isadora, I have enjoyed reading some old classics recently that I know I have read before,,yet cannot remember the story
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bertram Jacobus: brb (another big glass fluid. very hot here)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Isadora Davidov: I found that old copies of the NY Review of Books, with these long in-depth articles (social history, politics, lit crit etc)...I'd go back and God did I really read this??
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Mickorod Renard: whats that nantucket one that Poe wrote?
    Isadora Davidov: What did Poe write...a shortr story?
    Mickorod Renard: its quiet a long one for him
    Bertram Jacobus: hello hana ... :-)
    Mickorod Renard: I have forgot the whole title
    Isadora Davidov: Was anything buried like a Gold Bug?
    Mickorod Renard: he gets passage on a ship that gets wrecked etc,,Edgar Allan Poe's only novel, "Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket"
    Mickorod Renard: I found it disturbing
    Isadora Davidov: Oh very good
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Isadora Davidov: I mean that you came up with the reference..thanks
    Mickorod Renard: np
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s so strange and i don´t understand it yet : i don´t remember quiet meetings the last wek. only two times at 1 pm i was not here i guess. is my memory foolin me ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, at a site the reader is disappointed because the cannibalism wasn't scary enough. hahha
    Bertram Jacobus: week*
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe Bert :) Maybe they are blneding and overlaping for you? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: *blending
    Bertram Jacobus: i have no idea ...
    Mickorod Renard: grin,,Bertram, in english we just say things that are conversation pieces and are not nessessarily accurate
    Bertram Jacobus: my life seems like a movie anyway - so ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe as we get older we retain *mostly* the essence of things...
    Hana Furlough: bert how is your life like a movie?
    Isadora Davidov: are you watching the movie as a sort of magical play?
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s like unreal
    Mickorod Renard: Pema likes the idea that we can look at things in life as if its a movie
    Eliza Madrigal: like something you've seen already? hehe
    Isadora Davidov: Hello
    Mickorod Renard: well, I was thinking of something that we can observe from a diferent perspective
    Isadora Davidov: That isa good skill to cultivate..not easy

    Bert reveals enchanting ways

    Bertram Jacobus: for example my last relation with a girl or better i should say woman was like a relation with a real witch. but - i don´t like to believe that such elements exist ... undescribable ...
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Sorry Bert ... maybe a learning experience for you both, hope so
    Isadora Davidov: A bad enchantment...that you allowed yourself to be made captive of or did she have some wild Halloween costumes?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes mick. i made also experiences like that and even more : different worlds are to be experienced fort different people . all total strange
    Mickorod Renard: was she a white witch or a bad one?
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah Isadora
    Bertram Jacobus: no. i for example lost all my material background (money) for example in that time. after that i got it back
    Eliza Madrigal: I knew someone who was very drawn to a woman who loved drama and causing problems for him with people. He would shake his head

    and say "she has a spell on me"
    Eliza Madrigal: I would shake my head and say "You must like the spell cause you stay"
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ahhhhhhh,,its a long time since I had a spell on me
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Mickorod Renard: fond memories
    Isadora Davidov: Oh dreadful...I've had THat lesson too! And I was enchanted or I guess in love and did not understand thedisatrous possibilites
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't have enough energy for those kinds of spells anymore :)
    Isadora Davidov: And I haven't enough money to magnetize a wizard (if he needs gold)
    Bertram Jacobus: and at the moment my ligfe is again very new and strange for me. the last relation is a few month back now ...
    Eliza Madrigal: hehhe
    Hana Furlough: lol
    Mickorod Renard: I found a rich free woman a month back but I couldnt find my magic bag
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Isadora Davidov: Now that is a shame!
    Mickorod Renard: yea..out of practice
    Isadora Davidov: But if your life feels "unreal" or whatever...is that because you are makeing a big transition to a new point of view, a new study, a new profession or have left your homeplace and are isolated?
    Bertram Jacobus: i made and make serious heavy experiences. at the moment many people fight against me for example
    Mickorod Renard: or full of anxious worry?
    Bertram Jacobus: quite exhausting
    Mickorod Renard: thats not good Bert
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Isadora Davidov: OH enemies rising up...hmmm, being in an embatttled position is very very stressful,,,wathch that you don't get into a depression
    Bertram Jacobus: and i work in very starnge surroundings : get more money than my work should bring
    Bertram Jacobus: don´t understand that all
    Isadora Davidov: Well...there will be good use for that money somewhere somehow
    Bertram Jacobus: but i don´t earn enough for the company. it is small. so they normally coul not pay me so much. not to be understood
    Mickorod Renard: I still think we all hold onto the idea that money will make us happy
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s some of that isa - relation over, moved to my old town. work is new and friends not present like before. all strange, simply strange
    Mickorod Renard: you will settle down and it will fall into place Bert
    Isadora Davidov: This is the liquid life we live now...structures, communites broken down
    Hana Furlough: but getting rebuilt too in every moment
    Eliza Madrigal: Lately for me, it isn't money so much as how I use it. I feel very sensitive to how wasteful 'we' are including myself
    Qt Core: it may not lead to happiness but solve many "mundane" problems
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but i never experienced it in such a strong way
    Bertram Jacobus: my life often changed
    Bertram Jacobus: i did many different things
    Bertram Jacobus: but in the moment - i can only repaet : like unreal
    Eliza Madrigal: Some of the happiest/nicest homes I've been in were/are very simple... but cared for well, for example
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes deconstruction is a time to re-think the 'way' one does things
    Mickorod Renard: even if things are not perfect Bert, you can always look at it as an experience
    Isadora Davidov: But holding on through that process...that is an anxious time..maybe not so bad when there are pelnty of distractions...but for ong stretches..isolation, anxiety,
    Isadora Davidov: long stretches
    Isadora Davidov: ONe good thing is you notice and express, this "unreality"
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Hana Furlough: yeah i agree
    Hana Furlough: you don't have to identify with it
    Isadora Davidov: Oh good point
    Isadora Davidov: But when our feelings / emotiuons are involved...sometimes it's hard to recognize the trap of identifying (and reather strongly)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure. Don't strong emotions kind of signify a strong identification in some ways too?
    Eliza Madrigal: A pointer: "Look here!"
    Isadora Davidov: Oh...definitely...then you get completely sucked in
    Hana Furlough: but what if you just felt the feeling as it was happening, without thinking
    Bertram Jacobus: "without thinking" seems not possible to me (?) ...
    Isadora Davidov: maybe without "thinking" but it's also in the body and something like the subconscious (or whatever you call it...the momentariy unrecognized)
    Isadora Davidov: Bertram, this is so important, on several dimensions, what

    you speak of...
    Bertram Jacobus: which dimensions you mean for example isa ? may i ask

    Isadora Davidov: But it would also seem you have a developed ability to

    "wathch" yourself
    Isadora Davidov: 'watch...that's so important also
    Hana Furlough: bert, if it's in the body, how about just feeling that place?
    Isadora Davidov: well...the important topic of social, physical isolation or

    rapid shift to a new environment, then the "unreality"...the watching...maybe

    I infer there are challenging emoational states that you're not

    experienceing...I Only infer that
    Bertram Jacobus: i notice. that body and mind can be separated in relation

    to experiences. no must but a can
    Isadora Davidov: hmmm
    Bertram Jacobus: and the body is like physics - the mind can be "more

    free" is my impression
    Isadora Davidov: oh yes
    doug Sosa: well, in tai chi, one of the great learnings is that the movement

    of one muscle requires rebalancing by all the others.. In a way there is lots

    of freedom in that.
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting point, Doug. Maybe also expecting that shifting

    helps one to be patient with it
    Bertram Jacobus: which way of freedom is that doug please ? i don´t

    understand (?) ...
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am interested too
    Archmage Atlantis: If I may say, sometimes the body and the things of the

    world dominate, ususally due to problems or concerns......Escaping through

    through some techique to where the quietness of being is works for many
    doug Sosa: yes, and like the mind. i don't find them (any longer, distinct

    from each other. both are part of experience, which always comes first.
    Archmage Atlantis: The mind, imho, is also of the world, the quiet place is

    between .....one might say spiritual

    Found in translation, or should that be lost?

    Bertram Jacobus: it´s strange in german : the word for mind and

    spirituality is the same ("geist") ... (!)
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    Archmage Atlantis: Hm
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm :)
    Archmage Atlantis: No modifyers, like zeitgeist vs. ??
    Hana Furlough: bert, what about the words for heart and mind?
    Bertram Jacobus: one could more precise try to explain - it´s like a kind of

    "lower" and "higher" "geist" - the one the rational one the other the not

    material one
    Hana Furlough: nice
    Archmage Atlantis: That sounds right to me
    Bertram Jacobus: they are so different like in english too hana
    Mickorod Renard: like a ubergeist?
    Isadora Davidov: We have many separate terms: mind, spirit,
    Bertram Jacobus: that would describe the spiritual aspect of "geist" mick - yes (?)
    Hana Furlough: thanks bert
    Bertram Jacobus: what is tzhe difference between mind and spirit exactly ? :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: or is there some at all ? ;-)
    Isadora Davidov: Hmm, smart peopel should speak up
    Bertram Jacobus: okay : must not be "exactly" -
    Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
    arabella Ella: well since i understand a bit of german and english ...
    Hana Furlough: everyone should speak up
    arabella Ella: not that i am smart but ...
    arabella Ella: giest is the tranbslation of soul or spirit
    doug Sosa: James Hillman said you can have a messy (screwed up) mind but a clean spirit. Mind is more images and logics, spirit is closer to the tone of the soul.
    arabella Ella: and in english some people equate mind with soul
    Bertram Jacobus: nice doug
    Archmage Atlantis: Geist seems closer to the world than spirit, i what I am

    Hana Furlough: mind is habit, spirit is every fresh possibility
    Bertram Jacobus: no arch and ara sorry : geist is really both
    arabella Ella: yes but bertram soul is often considered to be mind in english

    too although sould also has more religious connotations
    Bertram Jacobus: and that brings a lot of misunderstandings in german (!)
    arabella Ella: geist was a word often used by Hegel
    Isadora Davidov: OK...well commonly , in my mind..I use the term " when

    I'm referring to cognitive functions (althoug we use the term colloquially

    when we say " Ihave a mind to go or do something, meaning I feel I want

    to...and spirit relates to something more complex..a total unlimited sense of

    Being..a fresh whole sort of immaterial inner sense..somehow transcendent
    Archmage Atlantis: I understand Bert, but I am saying it misses the place

    of the soul/essense/being, in what I am reading
    Bertram Jacobus: like love - where the old greek have the nice words eros,

    philia and agape. much more precise ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Time to check in on Maxine :) Nice to see everyone today!
    Isadora Davidov: use the term "mind"
    Bertram Jacobus: ara - that´s a additional point i guess : that philosophers

    give words own kinda "colours" (!) - which makes the things not easier ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes
    arabella Ella nods
    Bertram Jacobus: or often (?)
    arabella Ella: yes
    Archmage Atlantis: Often, is my experience Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: okay -
    arabella Ella: but perhaps we ought to remember that there are languages

    which do not have a proper translation for 'mind' but do for 'soul' ... and that

    'mind' was inherited following Descartes and his separation of everything

    into two realms
    Archmage Atlantis: How would the word Transcendent be expressed in

    Bertram Jacobus: and now my understanding of mind and spirit increased i

    think ty :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s transzendent :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: and Bert if you defined "transendent", how would you

    define it?
    Bertram Jacobus: i would say, for example "beyond duality" (?)
    Hana Furlough: yeah
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, that seems to hit the issue on the head, so to

    Qt Core: sometimes i find funny that the word for mind in italian is "mente"

    but that can be also be read as "he/she/it is lying
    arabella Ella: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow lol :o)
    Hana Furlough: wow qt that is amazing!
    Isadora Davidov: giggle
    Hana Furlough: thanks for that
    Pema Pera: :)
    arabella Ella: never realised that QT ... like 'sto mentendo' i am lying?
    Qt Core: yes
    arabella Ella: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Qt, what is the origin....that the mind does not see the

    actuality, but only the illusion, would be my guess
    Qt Core: i don't think there is a connection there, just two words converging

    on the same form
    arabella Ella: we use 'mente' for mind in my language too Qt but it is

    obviously derivative from Italian and a recent addition to the language I

    Qt Core: (may have to check that)
    Archmage Atlantis: I think the etymology would be an interesting small

    arabella Ella: (and it does not mean lying here)
    arabella Ella: perhaps you could check the Latin form of both words, may

    be interesting
    Isadora Davidov: a new word, clear thought constructs open new

    understandinng, bring knowledge
    Bertram Jacobus: nice idea isa
    Hana Furlough: i like it
    Bertram Jacobus: construct and create ... hm ... (another pair of words) ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, not equivalent, but close in result
    Archmage Atlantis: In this world, anyway
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. again i´m interested in the difference of both ... hm
    Bertram Jacobus: construct may handle with already created "parts" (?) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: but not too important. only playing ... :o)
    arabella Ella: ok bert so here goes
    Archmage Atlantis: depend, Bert, as a noun yes, as a verb, not so much
    arabella Ella: construct ... if a then b, if b then c, if c then d etc so if a then

    arabella Ella: create ... if x then b8fc90
    arabella Ella: unrelated but
    Bertram Jacobus: lol ara :-)) nice.
    Mickorod Renard: lol Ara
    arabella Ella: in hindsight one can trace back the relation
    arabella Ella: for create
    arabella Ella: for construct the relation is obvious from the start like

    constructing a pyramid on solid foundations and each building on the

    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Ara, if we accept the traditional rules of logic
    arabella Ella: not sure if that is clear enough?
    arabella Ella: the traditional rules of logic provide foundations metaphorical

    for explaining 'construct'
    Mickorod Renard: did we cover tranccendant ok?
    Mickorod Renard: transcendent*
    Archmage Atlantis: Remember Einstein only had to drop one of Euclid's

    postulates to recreate our understanding on time and space
    Isadora Davidov: not quite, but nonduality was proposed ...or pointing in that

    arabella Ella nods
    Isadora Davidov: Which one did he drop?
    arabella Ella: for me transcendent implies a holistic but metacognitive (over

    and above everything else) point of view
    Mickorod Renard: Surpassing others; preeminent or supreme Lying beyond

    the ordinary range of perception
    Archmage Atlantis: The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight

    Bertram Jacobus: i would agree ara
    arabella Ella: :)
    Isadora Davidov: Oh, thank you...so is the shortest distance curved?
    Archmage Atlantis: In Einsteins world, although he could not accept all the

    logical consequences ot that
    arabella Ella: depends which world we are taking about
    Mickorod Renard: only when U go round the bend
    Archmage Atlantis: It was left to others
    Archmage Atlantis: Bye Pema, I should like to meet you some day
    Archmage Atlantis: Blessings be
    Isadora Davidov: "meta" is good, but also ineffable (so not exactly in Bye
    Bertram Jacobus: [90 secs] ... ;-)
    arabella Ella: if we talk about the law of gravity for example in this world it is

    not always the case that things fall to the ground, take the sea where they

    float or outer space where they may move in different dimensions too
    Isadora Davidov: Oh...very expansive...but in the sea, heavy dense objects

    do go "downward"...inflated things float
    arabella Ella: depends
    arabella Ella: on density
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes Ara, it seems so
    arabella Ella: hot air balloons are another thing again
    Bertram Jacobus: i think too : gravity must not always mean that things fall

    to the ground - doesn´t it mean, that mass attracts mass ?
    Archmage Atlantis: That came out incorrect, I agree Ara
    arabella Ella: i can only explain things from a layperson's point of view as I

    am not a physics expert
    Archmage Atlantis: Not a physicist, but I believe that is the current

    explanation Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: and only one phenomenon between others ...
    Isadora Davidov: so do planets in the solar systme stay in oprbit because

    the sun's mass is a sort of "gravity"?
    Mickorod Renard: if I increase my mass I would become more

    Isadora Davidov: exerts some type of gravity..
    Archmage Atlantis: That also is the current explanation I believe Isa
    Archmage Atlantis: The gravity of the sun forms a well, or vortex, that cause

    the planets to fall inward toward it in an elliptical movement
    arabella Ella: altho i saw a documentary about the sun the other week and

    it sounded amazing how the sun itself is composed of various masses

    which vibrate and move around within what we consider to be one mass but

    in fact is lots of masses moving around together
    Bertram Jacobus: that is one of the mentioned phenomenons i think isa.

    another is there the so called "centrifugal force" - and both in a certain sort

    of "balance" bring the well known effects of our sunsystem
    Mickorod Renard: some astral boddies actually curb space
    Mickorod Renard: making light bend during its travel through space
    Isadora Davidov: I need to return to physics class
    Qt Core: not some every one, but most in undetectable little amount
    Bertram Jacobus: lool mick ! :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: (mass and atraction)
    Archmage Atlantis: There are are I believe currently 4 forces in the basic

    physics assumptions
    Archmage Atlantis: Gravity being one
    Isadora Davidov: the weak force, Waals?
    Isadora Davidov: I have forgotten, though I hardly ever understood in the fiirst

    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, and the strong force, gravity and.....I forget the

    Bertram Jacobus: i´ll leave - ty all for the great session. may all beings be

    happy ...
    Qt Core: electromagnetic
    Archmage Atlantis: May you experience transcendence
    Isadora Davidov: Ah...and I shoudl go and tryp to exert some force on the

    mass of unsorted and unfiled papers nearby

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