2009.08.19 07:00 - Testing the Limits of Mind

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    I awoke with a start this morning, at roughly 9:50AM my time, just a few minutes before the session began. I was joined first by Doug and a quiet Yakuzza. Later, I was joined by Archmage, and a more talkative Yakuzza. :)

    I find it kind of funny that without much in the way of intentionality, the two-part session turned out to have quite a clear and ultimately very interesting theme: that of Mind.

    doug Sosa: morning
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Doug :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Good morning to you too :)
    doug Sosa: yes.
    Eliza Madrigal: Anything on your mind today? Haha... Was that a pre-answer?
    doug Sosa: sure, you /
    doug Sosa: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Actually *just* getting up, having been up with a child with nighmares last night
    Eliza Madrigal: Wheels are not quite turning :)
    doug Sosa: ah, yes. well, i was at a late dinner last night and at the end this computer programmer who is also a practicing buddhist who doesn't want to read anything wanted to talk..
    doug Sosa: so i got home late and sit here with oj and coffee and a fuzzy mind.
    doug Sosa: a fuzzy mind has some of the qualities of 9 sec but in slow motion.
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: What do you mean that the Buddhist didn't want to read anything?
    doug Sosa: that wa short hand for his thinking that all he has to do is sit, not associate with any aspect of the tradition.
    doug Sosa: Turned out he was angry at his field and then angry at any cliam to know anything.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, incurious about everything else or did he really feel that would distract?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh
    doug Sosa: more a defense i think against authority of any kind. not a personal openness.
    Eliza Madrigal nods. He must have had much to say if he kept you talking into the late night? :)
    doug Sosa: or i did :(
    doug Sosa: He had an "i am sinking" quality.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, maybe you got his wheels turning
    Eliza Madrigal: I have heard that some zen practicioners don't think reading is helpful
    Eliza Madrigal: And I can understand why a little
    Eliza Madrigal: Many of us read and read and read and sit little :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi yakuzza! :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
    doug Sosa: and there is truth in that but, when he also dances and doesn't want to associate with good dancers (good is too judgemental he says), and plays music but doesn't think learning music theory helps...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i will be quiet this session
    doug Sosa: (hi).
    Eliza Madrigal: A chip on his shoulder he doesn't see then
    Eliza Madrigal: Hope the sitting helps!  :)
    doug Sosa: that weighs him down.indeed.
    Eliza Madrigal: I think we all have them. When protecting them becomes a lot of work, very heavy, maybe they're more noticeable and ready to go

    An interesting question which to me shows perhaps layers of mind we use... 

    doug Sosa: but then i have to ask, as we were talking, what is really going on here. is he a version of myself? Not obvious but hey, reality is often not obvious till you see it.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, do you mean are you keyed into this quality because it may be something you aren't seeing yourself too?
    doug Sosa: alwasy a spossibility.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed!

    Doug mentions the beautiful pink flower now the centerpiece of the fountain... 

    doug Sosa: i wonder how long the pink will stay.
    Eliza Madrigal: I like it :) Fael's been playing
    doug Sosa: yes, i was here whne she placed it.
    Eliza Madrigal: Quen's fish were here for only a day or two I think
    doug Sosa: ?
    doug Sosa: oh, got it.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Further awakening the conversation...

    Eliza Madrigal: Coffee is finally kicking in... ahhh
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    doug Sosa: okyour turn awakened one!
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    doug Sosa: I eave out yak, he is really awake.
    doug Sosa: "I leave.."
    Eliza Madrigal: Yakuzza likes to come and nap
    Eliza Madrigal giggle
    doug Sosa: were your chil children able to say what was in the nightmare
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, unfortunately the nightmares were the result of a 'friend' making up superstitious stories
    Eliza Madrigal: about soul stealers...
    Eliza Madrigal: My 13 yo is very sensitive, doesn't like scary movies, etc.
    Eliza Madrigal: but she liked this kid and I think he was trying to impress her by seeming to 'know'
    Eliza Madrigal: about these topics, etc.
    doug Sosa: wow. the minds of youth are full.
    Eliza Madrigal: It was a good conversation to have, actually.
    doug Sosa: wonderful. "this kid" he or she?
    doug Sosa: oh, he.
    Eliza Madrigal: The child is a boy. She met him at an anime convention
    doug Sosa: seduction. ?
    Eliza Madrigal: and he read a book on 'elementals"
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't know.. more that he liked her attention I think...
    Eliza Madrigal: and she likes the idea of alchemy, etc.
    doug Sosa: drama
    Eliza Madrigal: yes! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: She said that talking to him she felt something in the room...
    doug Sosa: you area good mom to have stayed present with her.

    Yes, for me although the first issue was to calm my child, I found myself looking into an outdated or perhaps not quite useful toolbox with which to do so. I didn't want to rely on simplistic notions nor battle superstition with superstition. I was truly 'on the spot' and found that what comforted my daughter the most, was the idea of learning to work with her own sensitivity, and 'cultivate' if you will, her own mind.    

    Eliza Madrigal: so it opened up quite the discussion about our minds
    doug Sosa: I am chnaging my view of mind. I now see it more something that gets energized by experience, not a place.
    doug Sosa: but its activity takes us away from the experience even as it clairifies.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm, yes I'd lean in that direction too
    Eliza Madrigal: What I said to her is that I didn't doubt her experience and that our mind has the boundaries, it seems, that we give it...
    doug Sosa: I will need to leave at the bell.
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay, have a nice day :)
    doug Sosa: wonderful.

    I sit quietly with quiet Yakuzza for a bit, and Archmage arrives... 

    Eliza Madrigal: Archmage, Hello :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ya is quiet today, possibly multitasking :)

    Archmage Atlantis: Greetings Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: How are you?
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, hello anyway Ya
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Archmage Atlantis: I am good, and yourself?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm well, thanks :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Just spied your profile for the first time... long time on SL!
    Archmage Atlantis: Long time member, I suppose, only active in the last 3 months
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, what brought you here originally?
    Archmage Atlantis: You are a writer, or at least interested in the written word?
    Archmage Atlantis: Based on your groups, I'm guessing
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, a bit. It is something I can't help but do, but for the most part I'm interested in writing as a voice
    Eliza Madrigal: and enjoy working with children to bring it out :)
    Archmage Atlantis: As for what brought me, I'm afraid I must give a metaphysical answer
    Eliza Madrigal loves metaphysical answers :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Though I did not accept it till recently
    Eliza Madrigal listens

    A very respectful way to introduce what Archmage was aware would be a new line of thinking to me...

    Archmage Atlantis: Please remember what I say applies only to my thinking, feeling, essence.....I am not a recruiter for a belief system
    Eliza Madrigal: Of course :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Thank you
    Archmage Atlantis: I couldn't tell you why I signed up, other than I read a magazine article all those years ago
    Archmage Atlantis: It said universities were using SL as classrooms, meeting centers, etc.....That gave SL a sort of legitimacy, rather than just being a game
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Archmage Atlantis: Then for several years, I checked in from time to time, but nothing compelled me
    Archmage Atlantis: Then 6 months ago, I received a mission......I had some $ to pursue it, my health was failing, along with my future finances.....so it was a, if not now, when sort of decision
    Eliza Madrigal: oh wow
    Archmage Atlantis: My thought was to carry to mission out in RL, but money, health and many other things prevented that
    Archmage Atlantis: So I bought an island on SL, and became open to a design firm to realize the mission
    Archmage Atlantis: That was how I met ThreeDee and Ade and Star and Moon and Fael and Ari
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah!
    Eliza Madrigal: fascinating, please go on...
    Archmage Atlantis: ThreeDee accepted the contract, and built the building, Moon did the gardens
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice! they are so talented I'm sure it is beautiful
    Archmage Atlantis: But my health and finances failed and the island was disassembled and sold for "mature" uses
    Eliza Madrigal: Sigh, I'm sorry to hear that
    Eliza Madrigal: Must have been difficult
    Archmage Atlantis: ThreeDee, bless his soul, has taken responsibility to see the project go forward
    Archmage Atlantis: He is moving it to an OpenSim
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, smart
    Eliza Madrigal: Is the project something you can share?
    Archmage Atlantis: And it is being funded by the International Association of Libraries
    Eliza Madrigal: !


    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, the preservation of all human knowlege for all humankind, humankind's descendents and all entities in this galaxy
    Archmage Atlantis: If one is going to go mad, it is probably best to go all the way, so I did
    Eliza Madrigal: Startling scope, that!
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes, go big!
    Eliza Madrigal: So interesting... does this tie into your interest in transhumanism somehow?
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, and a 3rd covenant with the Creator of All Things
    Eliza Madrigal: There you are beyond my depth I'm afraid
    Eliza Madrigal: What does that mean?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey arch
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: We are asked, by being given the ability to manipulate our own DNA, to imagine travel throughout the galaxy, to destroy this world or to create a more "moral" one to participate with the Creator of ALL Things in the evolution to come
    Archmage Atlantis: Hey Ya
    Archmage Atlantis: Just babbling
    Eliza Madrigal: yikes
    Archmage Atlantis: brb
    Eliza Madrigal: that is quite a vision, Arch
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure

    Yakuzza perks up, and we talk more about OpenSim...

    Eliza Madrigal: WB Ya :) Busy today?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not really, but i had dinner before :P
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was called right when i logged in here
    Eliza Madrigal: Hope it was good :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and at least i like to have a log when i might come back in time
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I understand that... have done that for workshops before
    Eliza Madrigal: Sign in, sit, and go pick up the kids from school, etc :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure how long it takes to be logged out... 20 minutes?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s not fixed
    Eliza Madrigal: ah
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i have so many groups and people on my list i barly get logged out by SL
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i have a bad connection, most of the time that is the reason
    Eliza Madrigal: hm
    Eliza Madrigal: Arch, back?
    Archmage Atlantis: back now
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am curious how long it takes until we have seemingless connections to opensim
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i heard there are a few projects where you can even take ur items with you
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but for now i even use the hippoprowser for opensim
    Yakuzza Lethecus: did anyone modify the standartclient for opensim here ?
    Eliza Madrigal: I've not checked it out... keep meaning to
    Archmage Atlantis: How will the opensim be funded?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i like the relam, they are constantly talking about the technology integration in the meterverse
    Yakuzza Lethecus: everyone can open his own opensim server if he likes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i don´t know who is sponsoring the usermanagement
    Archmage Atlantis: Oh, right, that came up the other day, I had forgotten, still thinking the SL model
    Eliza Madrigal: :) I'm really interested in the way health impacts our lives... how it often compells us to narrow our focus and concentrate our energies... had that experience too and how incredible to have SL and Open Sim 'bodies' that can fly and be young 'forever' hah
    Archmage Atlantis: The sim may be young, but the "soul" which animates it and the RL body are a singularity

    Transhumanism, Civil Dialog, and DNA...

    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose transhuman takes that to the next leap, though the 3rd covenant is not intrinsic?
    Archmage Atlantis: Which brings me to a humorous item
    Archmage Atlantis: We had 3 Singularity's *first name* in attendence at a recent meeting, I chuckled a long time over that
    Eliza Madrigal grins... at least on same wavelength!
    Archmage Atlantis: Transhumanism is, to me, my opinion, a forum to discuss and learn and decide what the shape of the future(s) we shall attempt to create will be
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i never heard the term transhumanism before, but sure mankind develops through technological advancements for ages, but we even take our problems to new dimensions :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: interesting i will read the wiki article on transhumanism
    Yakuzza Lethecus: a bit long right now
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, a fascinating topic though... tech and biotech integrated more and more
    Archmage Atlantis: Enjoy it, it is not the only outlook/opinion
    Eliza Madrigal: a very malleable vision in ways I wouldn't have imagined when i first heard the term
    Eliza Madrigal: For me, the ability to communicate as a species has to come before everything...
    Eliza Madrigal: the ability to hear another's thoughts and not shut down, and to express oneself in a way
    Eliza Madrigal: which doesn't shut others down...
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Eliza and that is a key point, I believe
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: Is something I love about Play as Being
    Archmage Atlantis: I can't be responsible for others feelings, except for commonly accepted curtesies, unless they tell me of them and the cause and effect of what I am doing
    Archmage Atlantis: Only the individual know e's own mind
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, yes... but one can create a 'safe' environment?
    Archmage Atlantis: And often not even e

    Good question from Ya:  "Do we just believe that we know our own mind?"

    Yakuzza Lethecus: or do we just believe that we know our own mind ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, there's quite the question ya, and circles back to what Doug and I began to talk about...
    Eliza Madrigal: the boundaries of mine
    Eliza Madrigal: *Mind
    Eliza Madrigal: (though, good typo) hahh
    Archmage Atlantis: I is my belief that the concious mind holds at best 1/2 to 1/3 or what we can know of ourselves
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah what is the scope for you of 'ourselves' Arch?
    Archmage Atlantis: The animal and emotional minds hold the balance, except for the essence/soul
    Archmage Atlantis: There are some good well researched books on brain structure
    Archmage Atlantis: By those scientists in the neurological studies
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you have a favorite author ?
    Eliza Madrigal: I see mind and brain quite differently, I think...
    Archmage Atlantis: A book I would suggest as interesting, certainly ......1 moment
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but we can´t exclude the fact that it is related, i liked the thought that mind and body are seperated and we have an immortal soul, but i had never faith in that
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, soul is not quite a comfortable term for me either Ya...
    Eliza Madrigal: but I try to hear how others use the term... lots of variations!
    Eliza Madrigal: And I agree... to me, we can 'have' a brain, but can't 'have' a mind
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, communication is a big issue for me and i think i even learn to express my thoughts better by following others expressions here often
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, this is a marvelous forum and the range of mind is vast :))
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, the bookshelf decided there were 2 to give you
    Eliza Madrigal: love thinking bookshelves
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Archmage Atlantis: Yea, it's not athromorphism, I suppose, more of anthroarchitectural ism *chuckle*
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Archmage Atlantis: Anyway it save me from excusing myself for finding a 2nd book I hadn't thought of earlier
    Archmage Atlantis: Any who
    Archmage Atlantis: The one I was thinking of is "The Growth of the Mind: And the Endangered Origins of Intelligence" by Stanley L. Greenspan, M.D. Clinical Professsor of Psychiatry, Behavioral Science and Pediatrics at George Washington U Medical Schoo
    Archmage Atlantis: published in English 8/98
    Eliza Madrigal: Not so sure about listening to Greenspans... hahah
    Eliza Madrigal: Kidding... thinking of the fed chair :)
    Archmage Atlantis: The second is "Mindfullness" by Elllen J. Langer, PHd, Professor of Psychology at Harvard U
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: published in English 1989
    Eliza Madrigal: wow
    Archmage Atlantis: There is a 3rd book here somewhere by a neurobiologist, I'll have to find it
    Eliza Madrigal: Funny how when 'new' lines of thought are discovered one can go back and find that they've been here all along
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thanks arch, i got to go :(
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Yakuzza, good to see you today :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Go back 5000 years to the first writings
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza cya arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Bye Ya
    Archmage Atlantis: And millenas before that in music and art
    Archmage Atlantis: We haven't change much, just our ability to share information forward to our decendent
    Archmage Atlantis: s

    A more specific beginning-to-scratch-the-surface kind of DNA discussion....

    Eliza Madrigal: I'd never heard the idea of dna being software ... like a bacteria that joined/overlapped with the hardware of larger environment ... like side-by-side evolution which came together, before last week
    Eliza Madrigal: I found it a fascinating idea
    Eliza Madrigal: Odd that I missed it
    Archmage Atlantis: DNA is the most mathematically expressible of the biological sciences
    Archmage Atlantis: The most yielding to computer science
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting idea, yes makes sense
    Archmage Atlantis: As a true tool used by the Creator would be, IMHO
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been waiting to order the gene kit... prices are falling :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I've had my full sequence done
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, for you I see that it points to a creator. For me that is a kind of open question
    Archmage Atlantis: That you see and think differently, and can yet see where my opinion could arise is powerful
    Archmage Atlantis: It is part of what we are asked to become now
    Eliza Madrigal: There, I agree with you heartily. That's where the 'juice' is :)
    Archmage Atlantis: It has been very enjoyable speaking with you Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: You too Arch. Time to set out? :)
    Archmage Atlantis: We shall speak again I am certain
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, of course. I look forward to it :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes time to take care of the househokd
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Have a good day
    Archmage Atlantis: Blessings of the Creator be with you
    Archmage Atlantis: Later
    Archmage Atlantis: Bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste :)

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